Why we do NOT have Free Will !!

[dan p]

Hi to all , and many people say that every one has free will , and do we ?

One question is , How can dead people have Free Will ?

The are only 3 figures that I have read of , that real had Free Will and it is these 3 ;

#1 , Adam
#2 , Eve
#3 , Angels

These had Free Will and could chose to disobey .

Lucifer , Isa 14:9-17 and in Ezek 28:12-19 !

And Adam and Eve in the Garden !!

And I am not a Calvinist , but remember the Body of Christ has been Chosen/Elected before the Creation of the worlds , Eph 1:4 and 2 Tim 1:9 .

So , How will anyone be saved if all are Dead in Trapasses and sins , and the bible is FOOLISHNESS and the bible is spiritually Discerned , 1 Cor 2:14 ??

dan p

 

[biggandyy]

We are free to do all the evil we want. We are NOT free to do acts that are Righteous before the eyes of the Lord, that is why the Lord considers our acts of goodness as filthy rags. Apart from Christ, our performance of good deeds is for naught without the blood of Christ.

 

[aspen]

Why are you reducing freewill to choosing between good and evil? A&E chose between good things for an undetermined amount of time before they fell. We still have freewill after the Fall....we can choose between lesser good choices before we are justified by Christ, and make less selfish choices after justification.

 

[dan p]

Why are you reducing freewill to choosing between good and evil? A&E chose between good things for an undetermined amount of time before they fell. We still have freewill after the Fall....we can choose between lesser good choices before we are justified by Christ, and make less selfish choices after justification.

Hi , and lets clarify a little !!

After the fall , How are we saved ??

#1 , We are we Born sinners , because of Adam !

#2 , There is none that Seekth after God !!

#3 , In this Age of Grace , the Natural man received NOT the things of God , for they are FOOLISHNESS , for they are Spiritually Discerned !!

#4 , We are Dead in Trepasses and sins !!

The above is true , so , How can a person be saved ??

Since he is DEAD , in trespasses and sins , Eph 2:1 , how can a Dead person respond ??

dan p

 

[Shirley]

God draws them with his goodness!

 

[dan p]

God draws them with his goodness!

Hi , and I have already showm that from Eph 1:4 , that we were chosen " in Him " BEFORE the foundation of the world , or in other words , by Election .

No one is seeking God !!

A good example is how Paul was saved in Acts 9:6 !!

Another is found in Acts 16:14 , where God opened the " heart " of Lydia .

In Eph 2:8 , God gives the Faith to be saved and that faith is a Gift from God !!

dan p

 

[Episkopos]

I could have resisted answering to this thread...but I just couldn't!

 

[FHII]

Well, I don't believe in free will. However, not for the reasons listed in the first post, but Dan's post #6 touches on it.

 

[brionne]

#4 , We are Dead in Trepasses and sins !!

The above is true , so , How can a person be saved ??

Since he is DEAD , in trespasses and sins , Eph 2:1 , how can a Dead person respond ??

dan p

just on the above point, its true that we are dead if we 'continue' in sins

But we have a choice to obey God regardless of our sinful 'nature' and for that reason, if we make the choice to obey Gods laws to the best of our ability, then through faith in Jesus, we can have a good standing before God.

Ephesians 2:1-5  Furthermore, [it is] YOU [God made alive] though YOU were dead in YOUR trespasses and sins, 2 in which YOU at one time walked according to the system of things of this world, according to the ruler of the authority of the air, the spirit that now operates in the sons of disobedience. 3 Yes, among them we all at one time conducted ourselves in harmony with the desires of our flesh, doing the things willed by the flesh and the thoughts, and we were naturally children of wrath even as the rest. 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love with which he loved us, 5 made us alive together with the Christ, even when we were dead in trespasses—by undeserved kindness YOU have been saved

the key to salvation is to repent and turn away from the bad practices that the world promotes. And this is completely within our ability to do.

 

[dan p]

just on the above point, its true that we are dead if we 'continue' in sins

But we have a choice to obey God regardless of our sinful 'nature' and for that reason, if we make the choice to obey Gods laws to the best of our ability, then through faith in Jesus, we can have a good standing before God.

Ephesians 2:1-5  Furthermore, [it is] YOU [God made alive] though YOU were dead in YOUR trespasses and sins, 2 in which YOU at one time walked according to the system of things of this world, according to the ruler of the authority of the air, the spirit that now operates in the sons of disobedience. 3 Yes, among them we all at one time conducted ourselves in harmony with the desires of our flesh, doing the things willed by the flesh and the thoughts, and we were naturally children of wrath even as the rest. 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love with which he loved us, 5 made us alive together with the Christ, even when we were dead in trespasses—by undeserved kindness YOU have been saved

the key to salvation is to repent and turn away from the bad practices that the world promotes. And this is completely within our ability to do.

Hi , and what ;Law's of God do you have reference to ?? dan p

 

[aspen]

You didn't address my question:

Why are you reducing free will to choosing between good and evil? I can choose to murder someone by strangling them or shooting them - that is free will AND both choices are evil. Furthermore, I can choose to work a 12 hour day at my job OR come home early, and surprise my wife by cooking her dinner and providing a romantic evening - unfortunately, neither choice can be made without a partly selfish motive on this side of the Fall, but that does not mean that I am restricted from making a free choice. We can choose to act in many different ways apart from making a moral judgment by exercising free will.

Can we choose to make good choices (purely selfless), apart from Christ? No. Could we choose to make good choices before the Fall? Yes. Were we created to choose between good and lesser good choices? Absolutely not! The serpent offered Adam and Eve a fool's bet - he told them that they could be like God if they knew the difference between good and evil, which was akin to telling a kid that he can be like an adult if he learns how to tell the difference between a new toy and a broken toy (the only catch?) by smashing the toy on the ground until it breaks and continuing to to do so with every toy he owns and will ever own. Of course, there was never a need to know how to tell the difference between a whole toy and a broken one if the kid only received whole toys. The kid who follows this method is going to be a fool who owns a lot of broken toys.....A&E were fools who not only lost the ability to choose between Good choices......Garden choices......choosing the Tree of Life, they forgot how to fulfill God's Will for their lives - to love and be loved.

The crazy part is, we were created for the sole purpose of loving and receiving love not making moral judgments! - in fact, we were predestined from the beginning to be in a never ending relationship with God and others; instead, due to A&E, we forgot why we were created - now instead of loving selflessly, we spend our lives making compulsive, arbitrary judgments about creation, based not on God, but ourselves! Jesus tells us not to judge because we have no idea how to do it apart from God - we were never created with the ability to do so.

So here is the deal - our freewill works perfectly when it is used to exercise God's will, under the direction of the HS. It does not work when misused to make moral judgments - it was not designed to do so.

 

[dan p]

You didn't address my question:

Why are you reducing free will to choosing between good and evil? I can choose to murder someone by strangling them or shooting them - that is free will AND both choices are evil. Furthermore, I can choose to work a 12 hour day at my job OR come home early, and surprise my wife by cooking her dinner and providing a romantic evening - unfortunately, neither choice can be made without a partly selfish motive on this side of the Fall, but that does not mean that I am restricted from making a free choice. We can choose to act in many different ways apart from making a moral judgment by exercising free will.

Can we choose to make good choices (purely selfless), apart from Christ? No. Could we choose to make good choices before the Fall? Yes. Were we created to choose between good and lesser good choices? Absolutely not! The serpent offered Adam and Eve a fool's bet - he told them that they could be like God if they knew the difference between good and evil, which was akin to telling a kid that he can be like an adult if he learns how to tell the difference between a new toy and a broken toy (the only catch?) by smashing the toy on the ground until it breaks and continuing to to do so with every toy he owns and will ever own. Of course, there was never a need to know how to tell the difference between a whole toy and a broken one if the kid only received whole toys. The kid who follows this method is going to be a fool who owns a lot of broken toys.....A&E were fools who not only lost the ability to choose between Good choices......Garden choices......choosing the Tree of Life, they forgot how to fulfill God's Will for their lives - to love and be loved.

The crazy part is, we were created for the sole purpose of loving and receiving love not making moral judgments! - in fact, we were predestined from the beginning to be in a never ending relationship with God and others; instead, due to A&E, we forgot why we were created - now instead of loving selflessly, we spend our lives making compulsive, arbitrary judgments about creation, based not on God, but ourselves! Jesus tells us not to judge because we have no idea how to do it apart from God - we were never created with the ability to do so.

So here is the deal - our freewill works perfectly when it is used to exercise God's will, under the direction of the HS. It does not work when misused to make moral judgments - it was not designed to do so.

Hi , and that is the arguement that we have freewill .

BECAUSE Adam and Eve sinned , all persons born from Adam and Eve are SINNER and Dead in Trespasses and SINS ,

Then , in 1 Cor 2:14 , the Natural and SINNERS received Not the things of the Spirit of God , for they are FOOLISHNESS UNTO HIM , BECAUSE THEY ARE SPIRITUALLY DISCERNED .

Eph 2:8 forever removes all those that God calls , for God gives the FAITH to be believe and forever removes all fron the Natural to the Spiritual .

There is more to WILL after all are saved , like Grieve not the Holy Spirit , which believers can do , and most do it , dan p

 

[aspen]

Hi , and that is the arguement that we have freewill .

BECAUSE Adam and Eve sinned , all persons born from Adam and Eve are SINNER and Dead in Trespasses and SINS ,

Then , in 1 Cor 2:14 , the Natural and SINNERS received Not the things of the Spirit of God , for they are FOOLISHNESS UNTO HIM , BECAUSE THEY ARE SPIRITUALLY DISCERNED .

Eph 2:8 forever removes all those that God calls , for God gives the FAITH to be believe and forever removes all fron the Natural to the Spiritual .

There is more to WILL after all are saved , like Grieve not the Holy Spirit , which believers can do , and most do it , dan p

We had freewill before A&E sinned. Claiming that we had to Fall to experience freewill causes a lot of problems:

1. It makes God into a liar and bad parent: Only a character-flawed individual would command his creation not to do something, while expecting them to do it, and then, punishing them for doing so. The is Mormon theology, not Christian.

2. It makes Good dependent on evil: Evil is not a force, it is a broken form of Good and therefore, dependent on it - Good is not dependent on evil, therefore, God would never depend on our sin to bring about a greater good.

3. Adam exercised free will in the Garden when he named the animals.

It is true that God has brought forth a greater Good after the Fall, but there is no reason to believe that He could not have introduced the same greater good if we remained in the Garden. See Prelandra by CS Lewis.

 

[jiggyfly]

I believe that our will is not as free as many think, it has limitations, there are lots of conditions in my life that I did not choose but I cannot will them away.
I know many say/think that God does not/will not go against man's "free will", but how many of us have chosen to take on the "fallen state" of death and condemnation from Adam? How many of us choose the trials that perfect our faith? Does God work everything according to our will or His will? Must God consult us before He does something in our lives?

 

[7angels]

dan p
i like people that ask questions it shows me a person who wants more. without asking questions we would never get anywhere. but let me ask you some questions. why ask a question? did someone tell you too? who tell you to go to bed at night? what is your favorite color? who told you to like that color? what do you like to do for fun? is that fun for you or is it something everyone likes to do?

these questions are here to show you that you have a choice in how your life is run. yes there are things that happen that you have no say in but most things you do have a say in whether you know it or not. so yes there is a free will that each of us have.

I believe that our will is not as free as many think, it has limitations, there are lots of conditions in my life that I did not choose but I cannot will them away.
I know many say/think that God does not/will not go against man's "free will", but how many of us have chosen to take on the "fallen state" of death and condemnation from Adam? How many of us choose the trials that perfect our faith? Does God work everything according to our will or His will? Must God consult us before He does something in our lives?

first off we need to understand that God directs and does not pull us around by our arm saying do this or do that. that is why we have the spirit so we can here his voice. now according to the word i can know a person by their fruit and also i can know a person because out of the mouth the heart speaks and there are other places the bible tells us we can know a person by. i grieve for you where you have been wronged and tell you that nothing is to difficult for the Lord. it is true God does not go against our ability to choose our own decisions. and the fallen state of adam was not done by God but the devil. we adam sinned he gave satan dominion over this world. which is why in gen 3:15 God prophesied of a savior to come. now the trials come about because of sin. if we lived in a perfect world then we could shoot an arrow from a bow blindfolded and be able to hit the target every single time without a miss. but we are not in a perfect world at the moment and sin causes even the simplest thing to become difficult. also with the death of Christ, God the Father gave us everything we need to live a victorious life. all we need to do is lay claim to it. it is just that easy if you will just have faith and believe.

 

[jiggyfly]

first off we need to understand that God directs and does not pull us around by our arm saying do this or do that. that is why we have the spirit so we can here his voice. now according to the word i can know a person by their fruit and also i can know a person because out of the mouth the heart speaks and there are other places the bible tells us we can know a person by. i grieve for you where you have been wronged and tell you that nothing is to difficult for the Lord. it is true God does not go against our ability to choose our own decisions. and the fallen state of adam was not done by God but the devil. we adam sinned he gave satan dominion over this world. which is why in gen 3:15 God prophesied of a savior to come. now the trials come about because of sin. if we lived in a perfect world then we could shoot an arrow from a bow blindfolded and be able to hit the target every single time without a miss. but we are not in a perfect world at the moment and sin causes even the simplest thing to become difficult. also with the death of Christ, God the Father gave us everything we need to live a victorious life. all we need to do is lay claim to it. it is just that easy if you will just have faith and believe.

Three different times I begged the Lord to take it away. 2Cor.12:8

As he left, however, he said, "I will come back later, God willing." Then he set sail from Ephesus. Acts 18:21

One of the things I always pray for is the opportunity, God willing, to come at last to see you. Romans 1:10

I can list some more scriptures that are contrary to what you posted if you would like.

 

[Vengle]

Hi to all , and many people say that every one has free will , and do we ?

One question is , How can dead people have Free Will ?

The are only 3 figures that I have read of , that real had Free Will and it is these 3 ;

#1 , Adam
#2 , Eve
#3 , Angels

These had Free Will and could chose to disobey .

Lucifer , Isa 14:9-17 and in Ezek 28:12-19 !

And Adam and Eve in the Garden !!

And I am not a Calvinist , but remember the Body of Christ has been Chosen/Elected before the Creation of the worlds , Eph 1:4 and 2 Tim 1:9 .

So , How will anyone be saved if all are Dead in Trapasses and sins , and the bible is FOOLISHNESS and the bible is spiritually Discerned , 1 Cor 2:14 ??

dan p

Now that is sharp thinking.

But how free was the will of those three really? If they used it to disobey did they not have to pay a price for doing so?

How is that free?

I just heard the sound of a bunch of people going, "Uh-oh!!!" :lol:

Hmm, I wonder if that is why the Freewill belief is another one of those beliefs we never find mentioned by name in the Bible?

 

[7angels]

Three different times I begged the Lord to take it away. 2Cor.12:8

As he left, however, he said, "I will come back later, God willing." Then he set sail from Ephesus. Acts 18:21

One of the things I always pray for is the opportunity, God willing, to come at last to see you. Romans 1:10

I can list some more scriptures that are contrary to what you posted if you would like.

first off 2 cor 12:8 you error in understanding what is going on. to understand the sweet and simple version let us look at verse 7 which states And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure. now let us break it downin 3 parts and look at. 1. And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations shows us that God gave paul a supernatural gift to be able to understand the word of God. 2. there was given to me a thorn in the flesh shows us that the gift God gave to paul was becoming troublesome due to the temptation of all that revelation from God is leaving paul with a pride problem of lifting himself up and taking credit for the revelations that were given to him by God. 3. the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure shows us that this thorn cannot be from satan because the devil does not try and keep us from exalting ourselves. satan wants us to exalt ourselves because it is an easy opening for pride to sneak in. paul was worried about all the praise and glory coming his way because of God's gift will cause him to be lifted up in pride. look at the context around verse 7 and you will see it talks about paul rejoicing in his weaknesses and not in his strengthes.

acts 18:21 is showing you that paul's will is to follow the Lord's direction. he does not have to listen to the Lord but if he made that choice then i can honestly say that would probably of been paul's end of being used mightily by God. i thank God that paul chose to follow and obey God.

rom 1:10 just like i posted above. paul chose to follow God's leading instead of following his own desire. but if you read the verse 10 you will see that paul was asking God for a chance to stop in and visit. God answers prayer even when it is not always what we want. who knows maybe God brought paul back to the romans several times.

none of these verses contradict my previous post but support my previous post.

Hmm, I wonder if that is why the Freewill belief is another one of those beliefs we never find mentioned by name in the Bible?

we are all sinners by nature because of adam and eve. it takes choice(or freewill if you prefer) to follow God and do the right thing. we cannot get out of our sin natures unless we choose to accept God who free us from our previous nature. if we had no free will then we would of been no better than robots. but God wanted people who he could fellowship with. it is hard to fellowship with a robot.

i hope this helps to clear things up O

 

[Vengle]

we are all sinners by nature because of adam and eve. it takes choice(or freewill if you prefer) to follow God and do the right thing. we cannot get out of our sin natures unless we choose to accept God who free us from our previous nature. if we had no free will then we would of been no better than robots. but God wanted people who he could fellowship with. it is hard to fellowship with a robot.

i hope this helps to clear things up O

The problem is that is not total freedom and therefore cannot mean God created us to have a gift of flat out free-will. For, that is only a relative freedom.

The horrid thing about the belief which says God created us to have a flat out free-will as though a gift of God is that it causes many to see God as responsible for all evil, especially when combined to the omniscience doctrine.

That is a terrible light to place God in by virtue of our ignorance.

The world believes something is either free or it is not free.

They therefore blame God for by omniscience knowing ahead that man would sin and then giving man the freedom to do it.

And that is not what the Bible really teaches.

That is what the twisting of men upon its interpretation have made it appear to teach.

If one would dig it out deeper in the scriptures they would find that the only freedom the Bible ever refers to our having is freedom from enslavement to sin that we may present ourselves as slaves to God.

That is the glorious freedom of the sons of God.

It freed us from our subjection to futility or vanity as Romans 8:20 speaks concerning. But it freed us from that so we could submit to God as slaves of God for His ways are our only true hope for happiness and fullness of life.

 

[goodshepard55]