Do you believe Spirit baptism replaces water baptism?

[Titus]

Hebrews 13:17 destroys your theory......

It's easy to twist the meaning of Scripture Marymog. Your church has a long history of practise.
Matthew 28:18, Christ has ALL authority.
How much authority does that leave the catholic church?

Hebrews 13:17,
- Obey those who rule over you, and be submissive, for they watch out for your souls, as those who must give an account....

The catholic church has never been given the power from God to rule over anyone.
No one is under your authority.
Fact you have zero authority

Matthew 28:18,
- and Jesus came and spoke to them saying, ALL AUTHORITY HAS BEEN GIVEN TO ME IN HEAVEN AND ON EARTH.
So much for your authority.

 

[Marymog]

Is that seriously your interpretation? That does not mean that the apostles are the centralized leadership. That is nothing but self-justifying Catholic propaganda.

And your interpretation suggests that any man could make up doctrine OPPOSITE of the Apostles teaching. Either you are lying to yourself, or some man lied to you and you fell for it.

 

[Marymog]

It's easy to twist the meaning of Scripture Marymog. Your church has a long history of practise.
Matthew 28:18, Christ has ALL authority.
How much authority does that leave the catholic church?

Hmmm....So YOU decide who twist Scripture and who doesn't.

And your Protestant men's interpretation of Scripture is not twisted?

Which one? The Baptist? Lutherans? Methodists? They all preach a different "truth". Which one is the "truth"?

Can you not see how your theory doesn't work?

 

[Titus]

Oh the lies your men have taught you.

The Catholic Church did not add books to the Bible. The label “unscriptural” was first applied by the Protestant Reformers of the 16th century. The truth is, portions of these books contradict elements of Protestant doctrine and the “reformers” therefore needed some excuse to eliminate them from the canon

I reject all reformation doctrine as well as the catholic church.

I am seperate and apart from the reformation of the catholic church.

So I dont need any lessons on history of the church or the apostles doctrine, Acts 2:42 from you

 

[Titus]

Which baptism is found in the new will and testament of Jesus Christ,
Water or baptism of the Holy Spirit?
Cannot be both according to Paul,
Ephesians 4:5,
- -one Lord, one faith, one baptism

 

[Titus]

And your Protestant men's interpretation of Scripture is not twisted?

Which one? The Baptist? Lutherans? Methodists? They all preach a different "truth". Which one is the "truth"?

Can you not see how your theory doesn't work

My faith did not come from the reformation of the catholic church.
Nor does my faith come post catholicism

 

[CadyandZoe]

You should read Scripture before you give your OPINION on it:

But some believers who belonged to the sect of the Pharisees stood up and said, “It is necessary for them to be circumcised and ordered to keep the law of Moses.” 6 The apostles and the elders met together to consider this matter.

The reason the council was convened was to decide the issue of was It is necessary for them to be circumcised and ordered to keep the law of Moses.”

Keeping it real with Scripture instead of opinoin.....Mary

Me too.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Which baptism is found in the new will and testament of Jesus Christ,
Water or baptism of the Holy Spirit?
Cannot be both according to Paul,
Ephesians 4:5,
- -one Lord, one faith, one baptism

Both are

there are many baptisms in the NT

The baptism of John

The baptism of Jesus (go and make disciples)

The baptism of the HS _He will baptize with the HS and FIre)

Your right, there is one baptism. because only one saves.. and its not water

 

[Titus]

Both are

there are many baptisms in the NT

The baptism of John

The baptism of Jesus (go and make disciples)

The baptism of the HS _He will baptize with the HS and FIre)

Your right, there is one baptism. because only one saves.. and its not water

We are not talking about how many baptisms are taught in the entire canon.
We are discussing which baptism is taught in the gospel of Jesus Christ.

 

[Titus]

there are many baptisms in the NT

The baptism of John

Wrong, the baptism of John is old testament.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

We are not talking about how many baptisms are taught in the entire canon.
We are discussing which baptism is taught in the gospel of Jesus Christ.

so am I,

And its not water

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Wrong, the baptism of John is old testament.

Wrong, It is written in the gospels. which is NT

 

[CadyandZoe]

Which baptism is found in the new will and testament of Jesus Christ,
Water or baptism of the Holy Spirit?
Cannot be both according to Paul,
Ephesians 4:5,
- -one Lord, one faith, one baptism

Paul is talking about water baptism but his habit is to use the word "baptism" as a form of metonymy, whereby the act of water baptism represents the act of becoming a disciple of Jesus.

in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism,

In this context, the "one Lord, one faith, and one baptism" are three phrases that all point back to "the hope of your calling" and bracket the larger category subsumed under the concept of "the Gospel." The Gospel is a good news message concerning how the Lord Jesus Christ died for our sins, and provided the means for our salvation. We place our hope in that message. Our salvation is predicated on our faith and the content of what we we believe is known as "the faith" (noun) And those who are baptized are baptized into that faith, becoming disciples of Jesus.

Lord = the Christ, the Messiah, the Savior
Faith (noun) = the content of our faith = the gospel message. One faith = one message of hope
Baptism (metonymy) = the one message into which all believers are immersed. The rite of water baptism signals a prospective disciple's commitment to living as a disciple of Jesus Christ, believing in him and trusting him.

Each of these phrases is one way to say the same thing. To be baptized into the faith (through the act of water baptism) is to believe the content of our faith, which includes a message about the one Lord and savior Jesus Christ.

 

[Titus]

Wrong, It is written in the gospels. which is NT

OK, So then by your logic, Jesus' death occured under the new testament covenant not the old because it is written in the NT. You sure John's baptism and Jesus' death on the cross occured in the new covenant and not the old?
One more question. Is everything written in the old testament occurring in the old testament because it was written in the old testament?

 

[Titus]

Paul is talking about water baptism but his habit is to use the word "baptism" as a form of metonymy, whereby the act of water baptism represents the act of becoming a disciple of Jesus

Galatians 3:26-27,
- ....baptized into Christ.

What does this new testament baptism in the name of Jesus Christ accomplish?
We already know if we believe the Scriptures it puts one into Christ.

Our salvation is predicated on our faith and the content of what we we believe is known as "the faith" (noun) And those who are baptized are baptized into that faith, becoming disciples of Jesus.

Salvation is predicated on our faith. Good. Our faith is more than our belief(mental assent) in the gospel, 1Corinthians 15:1-4
Saving faith includes believing all that Jesus' gospel teaches,
John 5:24,
- Most assuredly I say to you he who hears My  word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgement but has passed from death into life.

Christ affirms eternal life will be given to those who believe in God but also in the word of the Lord,
the gospel of Christ, Romans 1:16.

This disproves faith only salvation.
True believers believe in the gospel, 1Corinthians 15:1-4, but also in His word.
Therefore true believers believe ALL OF IT.
Mark 16:15-16,
- And He said to them, Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

As we have already learned those who will be condemned are those who do not believe and this unbelief is more than belief in 1Corinthians 15:1-4. It is unbelief in Him and all that He taught.

Conclusion: The baptism is water that Paul preached, Ephesians 4:5.
How do we know it is water and not Holy Spirit baptism?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

OK, So then by your logic, Jesus' death occured under the new testament covenant not the old because it is written in the NT. You sure John's baptism and Jesus' death on the cross occured in the new covenant and not the old?
One more question. Is everything written in the old testament occurring in the old testament because it was written in the old testament?

Mankind from the fall until today has been saved by grace through faith

Mankind has never been saved by faith plus works.

And no man has ever been saved because they were baptized in water.. anymore than any man was saved because they had their foreskin cut (circumcision)

these are symbols of what truely saves us. the washing of water by the word.

 

[Titus]

Mankind from the fall until today has been saved by grace through faith

Mankind has never been saved by faith plus works.

And no man has ever been saved because they were baptized in water.. anymore than any man was saved because they had their foreskin cut (circumcision)

these are symbols of what truely saves us. the washing of water by the word.

You did not answer my question.
Is it because you realize that what is written in the old testament does not mean it must have occured in the old testament?
Also Jesus' baptism and John's baptism occured in the old testament under the old law of Moses.
If you still want to hold to John's baptism being o
In the new testament of Jesus Christ, then you must show me where Jesus commanded it in His gospel? btw, Jesus' gospel was only in effect after He died, Hebrews 9:16-17.
- for were there is a testament, there must also be the death of the testator. For a testament is in force after men are dead, since it has no power at all while the testator lives.

 

[Gospel Believer]

Hey Gospel Believer,

Here is another way to look at your interpretation by taking into consideration ALL of Scripture, in context, instead of the cherry-picked parts that support your interpretation of Scripture:

Paul doesn’t say that baptism is not essential to the gospel. Rather, he is concerned with the administration of baptism. In 1 Cor. 1:11-12 Paul is addressing a problem that arose in the Corinthian church, where some were identifying themselves with particular ministers and causing division within the community. Paul wrote this because the Corinthians were adopting religious affiliations based on the minister who baptized them. Consequently, Paul was grateful that he hadn’t baptized more people than he did among the Corinthians, lest they affiliate themselves with him. It is within this context that Paul says, “For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel”. His intent is not to separate the sacrament of baptism from the gospel but rather to clarify his own part in the administration of the actual rite of baptism among the Corinthians.

Even if your interpretation that Paul wasn’t sent to baptize in a strict, general sense, it doesn’t follow that baptism is not essential to the gospel. Paul's preaching of the gospel could have included the necessity of baptism for salvation with the administration of the actual rite of baptism left to other ministers. Someone other than Paul performing baptism wouldn’t preclude baptism from being essential to the gospel message that Paul preached.

What we see here is that Paul is using hyperbole and he’s using it to emphasize two things: 1) it doesn’t matter by whom you’re baptized, and 2) his apostolic role is not restricted to administering baptism but also involves preaching the gospel. We know that Paul’s statement, “For Christ did not send me to baptize,” is hyperbolic because Jesus commanded all the apostles to make disciples of all nations by baptizing them (Matt.28:19-20). Since Paul is an apostle, it therefore belongs to his ministry to baptize. Also, if Paul weren’t sent to baptize in a strict sense, then he would have acted in disobedience when he baptized Crispus, Gaius, and the household of Stephanas.

In Summary: Neither God or Jesus or the Apostles "changed" the "program" as you have been taught. God didn't one day say baptism is necessary and then the next day change his mind and use Paul to say baptism isn't necessary. You were taught this by someone who improperly interpreted Scripture. Some Protestant men changed the teachings of Scripture.

Bible Study Mary

Paul and Peter did not preach the same identical Gospel....it made no difference....BOTH were initiated by God Himself and both depended upon Jesus....Peter preached the Crucification as a terrible thing that the Jews did to their Messiah and they needed to realize that and Reoent for what they had done....Paul preached that same Crucifixion as the way if Salvation....he claimed to preach NOTHING but “ Christ Crucified”...

 

[BreadOfLife]

Consider the following verse.

Mathew 18:18

Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.​

Whatever the Apostles bind on earth, "shall have been" bound in heaven. In other words, the apostles weren't deciding what to bind; the apostles were being shown what was already bound.

You can glean that interpretation from the text using past tenses – but the actual Greek text states clearly:
καὶ ὃ ἐὰν δήσῃς ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς ἔσται δεδεμένον ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς, καὶ ὃ ἐὰν λύσῃς ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς ἔσται λελυμένον ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς.

And whatever you bind on earth WILL BE BOUND in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth WILL BE LOOSED in heaven.

John 16:13-15

13 But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. 14 He will glorify Me, for He will take from Mine and will disclose it to you. 15 All things that the Father has are Mine; this is why I said that He takes from Mine and will disclose it to you.​

​

Here the Lord assures his apostles that failing memory will not be a problem for them in their role as witnesses to what they saw, what they heard and what they witness. Jesus will send the Spirit of Truth to help these men remember what Jesus spoke and what he did. He tells them that the Spirit of truth will not speak on his own but "whatever he hears." The Spirit of Truth will "take from mine", meaning the teaching of Jesus and his miracles and disclose it to the apostles. Jesus declares that the Spirit of Truth will guide the Apostles in what ever "he hears", taking from Jesus the knowledge and wisdom given to him and disclosing it to his apostles. In this manner, the spirit of Truth will glorify Jesus.

This supports my contention that the only two people authorized to tell us what to believe is Jesus Christ and God the Father. The Spirit of Truth is revealing what he hears from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

And I reiterate that NOBODY tells us what to believe.
The Church has the role of TEACHING everything Jesus commanded (Matt. 28:19020)

I ALSO reiterate that if we are NOT to have earthly instructors via the Church – then EVERYBODY should believe in the SDAME things. Sooooooo, why DON’T you?

Why do Protestants have so many different and sometimes competing doctrines from sect to sect?

You speak another common misunderstanding. Only God can forgive sins. Jesus and the Apostles do not have the power to forgive sins. They have the ability to identify those whom the Father has forgiven already.

John 20:22-23

22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them and *said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained.”​

WRONG.
The Greek word used here is απηιεμι (af-ee'-ay-mee), which means: “to let go, give up a debt, forgive, to remit, to send away”.

Furthermore – Paul writes about this ministry of reconciliation to the Corinthians:
2 Cor. 5:18-20
“And all this is from God, who has reconciled us to himself through Christ and given Us the ministry of reconciliation, namely, God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting their trespasses against them and entrusting to US the message of reconciliation. So WE are ambassadors for Christ, as if God were appealing through US. WE implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.”

“Entrusting to US””
“WE are ambassadors for Christ
“As if God were appealing through US”
“WE implore YOU”
Paul differentiates between the clergy and the laity here.

In 2 Cor. 2:10, he states, “Whomever you forgive anything, so do I. For indeed what I HAVE FORGIVEN, if I HAVE FORGIVEN anything, has been FOR you in the presence of Christ.”

In the Greek, the word “presence” in this phrase is Prosopone, which means Person. In the PERSON of Christ is a more correct translation. Paul was indicating that they were forgiving sins in the PERSON of Christ, which is translated into Latin as In Persona Christi.

If you forgive the sins of any, their sins HAVE BEEN forgiven.

You didn't "show" this to me. You asserted your interpretation and I disagreed with you. I corrected your misunderstanding from Paul's epistle to the Ephesians where he makes it very clear that God gives men, not offices.

And you’re STILL wrong.
“Episkopay” translates a “Bishopric”, more accurately, “Overseership”.

As I already explained “Overseer” is the role of a “Bishop”.

What a word is translated isn't necessarily the meaning that the word intends to convey.

I don't think I dodged the question. I thought I was very clear that your conclusion doesn't follow from your premise. That is, the fact that many denominations exist does not logically follow from a common corpus. Instead, the existence of various denominations is the result of independent thinkers, which is a good thing, not a bad thing. Protestantism respects the life of the mind, whereby a group of individuals is dedicated to the truth and ask each other "Isn't this what the Lord has said?"

Followers of Jesus are humble in their views and aren't afraid of being corrected if proven wrong. But we have discovered that the process is not only necessary but desired. Only those who live in fear of being wrong need to have an authority tell them what to think. And only those afraid of the truth need to censure those with whom they disagree.

YOU are ascribing confusion to the God of order, which borders on blasphemy.

Jesus didn’t tell the leaders of His Church to -
“Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe what they believe I commanded”

He said “teaching them to observe all that I have commanded”
The Kingdom of God is NOT a democracy . . .

So you claim. Your claims aren't supported by reality though. Your church gets a lot of things wrong.

Pleas explain . . .

I don't think I closed my eyes to anything. I am speaking against ALL forms of organized religion, not only the RCC. If Protestantism has similar problems then this simply adds support to my contention. Contrary to your incorrect narrative, I am not pitting the RCC against Protestantism. Remember? I said Jesus did NOT come to establish a new religion. Denominationalism is just as bad as the RCC. Jesus never intended the saints to divide up into factions. Jesus intends that we all become independent thinkers, living and working according to his teaching. God the father provides men, who have the gift of overseer to help me, but such men always defer to the scriptures.

You used the scriptures in support of your views, which is just what I also do. We are both discussing issues that are important and significant to believers and we both make our appeals from scripture. That's how it should be. And I appreciate your efforts.

With regard to pedophilia, you seem to have misunderstood why I mentioned it. I wasn't as focused on the pedophilia as much as I was focused on the coverup. It's a question of philosophia -- a lover of wisdom and truth. Any organization that whitewashes the ugly truth of its existence shows itself incapable of facing the truth. I would not count such an organization among those whom God is directing.

First of all - -you must blame individuals for any wrongdoing. There are many Bishops and priests who were against any kind of cover-up. YOU blame the faith tradition that is Catholicism for this, I blame individuals,

Secondly, you keep referring to the Catholic Church as if it were simply another denomination.
Protestant groups are denominations of the ONE Church that existed before ALL of them. The Catholic Church is the Original Tree from which Protestantism splintered – and continues to splinter.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You did not answer my question.
Is it because you realize that what is written in the old testament does not mean it must have occured in the old testament?
Also Jesus' baptism and John's baptism occured in the old testament under the old law of Moses.
If you still want to hold to John's baptism being o
In the new testament of Jesus Christ, then you must show me where Jesus commanded it in His gospel? btw, Jesus' gospel was only in effect after He died, Hebrews 9:16-17.
- for were there is a testament, there must also be the death of the testator. For a testament is in force after men are dead, since it has no power at all while the testator lives.

I did answer your question

No one in the OT was saved by water baptism

No one in the NT is saved by water baptism.

Stop trying to attribute the work of God in spirit baptism to your pastor. And stop teaching faith plus works for salvation