Sinless Perfection?

[JohnnyB]

Hi mark s,

You stated this in an earlier post, and it caught my eye:

I think that God wants us to try with all we can to not sin, and that He's given us His power to not sin.

I don't know if others notice this, but these two thoughts are in direct conflict with one another, they are polar opposites, can you see what I'm saying mark?

Your statement suggests God only contains some power, that perhaps His power is lacking, because 1) we must do it ourselves (our own strength 2) His power is not enough because people keep sinning.

We do nothing of ourselves, it is Christ in us, the hope of glory. It is no longer us, it is Him and that is why all things are possible! We can try in our own power to transform ourselves, to overcome sin but it will be in vain. We are abiding in Christ.

2 Peter 1:3 tells us God has empowered us with all we need to live godly lives!! He goes onto tell us that we can participate in the divine nature.

2Peter 1:4 whereby he hath granted unto us his precious and exceeding great promises; that through these ye may become partakers if the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world by lust.

Peter explains a process, which builds upon one another, and following these, with Christ, we will never stumble!

2Peter 1:5 yea, and for this cause adding on your part diligence, in your faith supply virtue; and in your virtueknowledge; and in you knowledge self-control; and in self control patience; and in your patience godliness; and in your godliness brotherly kindness; and in btotherly kindness love.................

........for if you do these things YE SHALL NEVER STUMBLE.

It's a maturing process.

I think there is a tendency to justify ourselves when it comes to sin, for instance people might sin and shrug it off with the explanation, oh well I'm a sinner, it's human nature. We are unable to justify ourselves, God is the justifier.

 

[IanLC]

Interesting way of putting it! If understood properly, these fit. But the last one seems off in what is implied...



We are called to walk in this life today. Sadly many do believe in such a doctrine but have been led to believe this is something reserved for the future, after death. Rather this is the very thing God is calling us to now. We are to walk in heavenly places now. This is not a walk reserved for after death, upon which we happen... But a life we are called to attain now. This is the full stature of Christ. This is what we must go after.

Enitre Sanctification is achieved in this life. I do apologize! I had to go back and reread our (UHCA) doctrine and study the scripture.

 

[HammerStone]

I don't know if others notice this, but these two thoughts are in direct conflict with one another, they are polar opposites, can you see what I'm saying mark?

Actually, that's a fallacy. I've seen this argument line across a couple of threads.

There are several doctrines that deal with the inherent tension - just like Webers_Home shared above - found in the Bible. I've been conducting my own soteriological study as of late as I attempt to fully flesh out what I believe the Bible says about our salvation.

I see this mistake made by everyone that there is not some moment where God's will and our will converge. IE: God can certainly carry out the Reformed position that He brings us to Him. However, while God certainly calls us and the Holy Spirit empowers us to call Jesus our Lord, perhaps God's endowed man with the ability to choose. We seem to make the mistake that God must define what we do in order to know what we will do, which I would submit is just as much of a limitation.

Romans 7:15-25
For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good. So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.

So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. For I delight in the law of God,[sub] [/sub]in my inner being, but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.

Paul is struggling with this as he writes what would become the primary doctrinal book of the New Testament. I've always visualized this passage as two armies clashing. One bears the banner of sin and slavery, and the other the flag of the Spirit. If it was as simple as not sinning in the flesh, then this great conflict would not be occurring.

Suggesting that we don't sin in the flesh is underdeveloped theology. Quoting any number of verses that declare our status in Jesus won't overwrite that. We must also take the I John 1:8-10 passages into account. There is a distinction to be made, and it borders on the paradoxical, but understanding can be grasped with the help of the Spirit.

 

[JohnnyB]

Actually, that's a fallacy. I've seen this argument line across a couple of threads.

There are several doctrines that deal with the inherent tension - just like Webers_Home shared above - found in the Bible. I've been conducting my own soteriological study as of late as I attempt to fully flesh out what I believe the Bible says about our salvation.

I see this mistake made by everyone that there is not some moment where God's will and our will converge. IE: God can certainly carry out the Reformed position that He brings us to Him. However, while God certainly calls us and the Holy Spirit empowers us to call Jesus our Lord, perhaps God's endowed man with the ability to choose. We seem to make the mistake that God must define what we do in order to know what we will do, which I would submit is just as much of a limitation.

Romans 7:15-25
For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good. So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.

So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. For I delight in the law of God,[sub] [/sub]in my inner being, but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.

Paul is struggling with this as he writes what would become the primary doctrinal book of the New Testament. I've always visualized this passage as two armies clashing. One bears the banner of sin and slavery, and the other the flag of the Spirit. If it was as simple as not sinning in the flesh, then this great conflict would not be occurring.

Suggesting that we don't sin in the flesh is underdeveloped theology. Quoting any number of verses that declare our status in Jesus won't overwrite that. We must also take the I John 1:8-10 passages into account. There is a distinction to be made, and it borders on the paradoxical, but understanding can be grasped with the help of the Spirit.

Hi Hammerstone,
The main point I am trying to convey is not doing in our own strength. Our success with any undertaking is dependent on God's strength.

It sounds like an interesting study, HS!

When I read what Paul wrote after the verses you provided, I can not help but see that Paul is giving us the solution to his apparent conflict.

Blessings

 

[Hepzibah]

mark s

Romans 7:21-25 ESV

"So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. 22 For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, 23 but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin."

We can't say that this is Paul before being born again.

I agree.

There are more than two sides on this.

So far, there is the side that says that Paul was still a Jew, unconverted, and the other side says that this is his normal state as a Christian.

Both are wrong.

He is describing that dark night when a believer has been struggling in the flesh and has nothing to show but failure. He has tried to stop sinning but finds a power within that he cannot overcome. Many have come to this spot and gain great understanding when they see Paul was there too. But Paul was not content to stay there. He cried out for deliverance and received it. The Holy Spirit baptism.

Romans 7 is the battlefield and it is vital that we understand it aright. There are three not two possible interpretations. It is the old Pelegian/Augustine battle. Before the debate, most believed interpretation :

A That is that it is an unbeliever.

Augustine believed that version, but he changed to :

B It is a normal believer. (He has misled the majority of the church since.)

This is because Pelagius pointed out that the man was not absolutely depraved. Augustine had to backtrack but he still did not agree with Pelagius`s view, that it is a believer in the throes of despair and conviction of sin (just before he becomes entirely sanctified).

This is view :

C but it has always been the view of the few.

 

[mark s]

Hi Hammerstone,
The main point I am trying to convey is not doing in our own strength. Our success with any undertaking is dependent on God's strength.

It sounds like an interesting study, HS!

When I read what Paul wrote after the verses you provided, I can not help but see that Paul is giving us the solution to his apparent conflict.

Blessings

I think this is embodied in Phil. 2:13, we work out what God works in, as He causes us to want to do and to be able to do what pleases Him. If He's not putting it into us, we can't put it into our lives.

 

[Episkopos]

mark s



I agree.

There are more than two sides on this.

So far, there is the side that says that Paul was still a Jew, unconverted, and the other side says that this is his normal state as a Christian.

Both are wrong.

He is describing that dark night when a believer has been struggling in the flesh and has nothing to show but failure. He has tried to stop sinning but finds a power within that he cannot overcome. Many have come to this spot and gain great understanding when they see Paul was there too. But Paul was not content to stay there. He cried out for deliverance and received it. The Holy Spirit baptism.

Romans 7 is the battlefield and it is vital that we understand it aright. There are three not two possible interpretations. It is the old Pelegian/Augustine battle. Before the debate, most believed interpretation :

A That is that it is an unbeliever.

Augustine believed that version, but he changed to :

B It is a normal believer. (He has misled the majority of the church since.)

This is because Pelagius pointed out that the man was not absolutely depraved. Augustine had to backtrack but he still did not agree with Pelagius`s view, that it is a believer in the throes of despair and conviction of sin (just before he becomes entirely sanctified).

This is view :

C but it has always been the view of the few.

Welcome to the forum Hep!!!

Very good points! I love that battlefield analogy for Romans 7.

I think the bottom of your post was lost....or you forgot to post the C option...

Blessings to you!

 

[whitestone]

For those who still aren't filled with the Holy Spirit of Christ Jesus, you will still sin of course. Just as I did prior to being filled with Christ.
Christ doesn't sin.
I am dead, Christ is alive in me.
I am dead so I don't think say or do anything of the flesh.
Jesus is alive in me so He thinks says and does what He does in me.

The Love of Christ in us by His indwelling Holy Spirit, chases our sins away. We only are attracted to Righteousness. We are empowered to Righteousness. We hate sin. We are empowered against sin. A great existence indeed in His Kingdom! So we ask Him to Come, again and again and again, more and more Come quickly even so Come Lord Jesus.
And He does! By His Holy Spirit, He Comes into each of us.

This is the exact scriptural manner how Jesus brings Himself into us by His Holiness and indwelling.

Those who still sin, have yet to receive the Holy Spirit of Christ fill their body soul and spirit. Otherwise they wouldn't chose to continue in sin, crucifying Jesus again and again in their wickedness.

Rather than submit to the Holy Spirit of Christ to COME into us,
the false prophets synagogue of satan people instead make up a doctrine, and change the meaning of scriptures that deals clearly with this topic, and CHANGES the meaning to make sin an unavoidable condition!
This is the enemy.
Mark them well and send them away out from your midst, they are simply that fulfillment of "even satan mimics an angel of light".

People who sin after claiming to be a Christian, actually ponder the wickedness and entertain it in their carnal minds of the flesh.
Jesus doesn't do that because He is Perfect and He Lives in me. So I don't, because I am His Body, He doesn't think sin.

People who sin after claiming to be a Christian are those who speak wickedness to others, untruths and false doctrines.
Jesus doesn't do that because He is Perfect and He Lives in me. So I don't, because I am His Body, He doesn't speak wickedly or falsely.

People who sin after claiming to be a Christian, actually choose to do the wickedness because they can not do otherwise, because they love the wickedness more than the righteousness. That is the trait of the unregenerate carnal mind.
Jesus doesn't do that because He is Perfect and He Lives in me and HE can't do otherwise than Righteousness.

Those people who still sin after receiving Jesus the Christ in them, Newly and freshly and KNOWINGLY hammer nails into His hands and feet, crush a crown of thorns on Him, pierce His Soul with a spear, and are guilty of the body and blood of Jesus. They mock His Life and His Sacrifice and His Blood.
There is no more sacrifice available for them as they tred the Lord under their feet and count the Blood of the Covenant an unholy thing. They are the "devil".

The people who here say they still sin, have a big big problem. For one, they have no room to speak to not one other person here let alone "teach", they are entirely unqualified, being evil and sinning regularly. They are as barbarians.

You know who you are.

Also, if you still sin, worry about yourself and your 'theology' instead of blaming those who would help you out of your sin. In attempting to speak with some people here it is like trying to feed a rabid dog and having your hand bit off. You know who you are as you bite and pursue the 'pre-eminence' in pride.

The false accusations of those who should be students in silence, is totally of the enemy. As you hear the sinners blaspheme the Saints saying that it is impossible for Jesus to bring us into obedience and to Live His Righteousnesss in us. A terrible and Ungodly teaching of the agents of death.

For receiving Jesus is the Kingdom of God! Righteousness Joy and Peace in His Holy Spirit is what He brings.

It is nothing we do of our own selves. In fact, we have to 'die' to self before any part of the Kingdom is seen.
In Christ, all things are possible who strengthens us.

You who sin and love to accuse others of being sinners, Repent and be baptized for the remission of your sins and receive the Holy Spirit of Christ and you will be saved.
Otherwise, you will continue to just still regularly sin and still say that Christians can't help but sin. You will continue preaching a false doctrine and twist scriptures to read opposite. The obvious symptom of your pending doom. Let the message of the Saints come through and you will be happy and you will enjoy salvation in Righteousness. That is the whole point of it all

Whitestone

 

[JohnnyB]

I think this is embodied in Phil. 2:13, we work out what God works in, as He causes us to want to do and to be able to do what pleases Him. If He's not putting it into us, we can't put it into our lives.

I am referring to the life of Christ being manifested in us so that we are able to walk in HIS power and HiS strength- NOW!

We can not do this of ourselves, in our own strength, we need Him to do so. We can overcome all things because He has already overcome.

 

[Hepzibah]

Hi Episkopos

Thanks for the welcome!

I think the bottom of your post was lost....or you forgot to post the C option...

C is the option I explained - Paul is a believer in the dark night of the soul prior to entire sanctification.

 

[mark s]

Does anyone see this as a salvation issue?

Can a Christian be born again, baptized into Christ, commit sins, and still be received into glory?

Love in Christ,
Mark

 

[Hepzibah]

I see it as a salvation issue.

A Christian and a sinner are incompatible. However, a believer that is, one who has come to Christ for forgiveness, will still commit sins until he is given revelation by God that it is not acceptable and he is not in the ark of safety unless he is saved from sin - this is the reason Christ died for us. Until he has been brought to that point, which is any time after he comes to Christ, and can be immediately after as we see by the thief on the cross, and given the full revelation and knowledge of the full salvation Christ gained for us, he will claim that he is positionally holy and acceptable. He is fooling himself. The day the Lord shows him this truth, he is undone and has come tot he end of himself and cries out with Paul - oh wretched man.


This allows Christ to carry out His full work in the man and he is delivered from the sin nature. Sadly this is not happening too much today. We are in dark times indeed when most oppose this most holy truth.

 

[Episkopos]

I see it as a salvation issue.

A Christian and a sinner are incompatible. However, a believer that is, one who has come to Christ for forgiveness, will still commit sins until he is given revelation by God that it is not acceptable and he is not in the ark of safety unless he is saved from sin - this is the reason Christ died for us. Until he has been brought to that point, which is any time after he comes to Christ, and can be immediately after as we see by the thief on the cross, and given the full revelation and knowledge of the full salvation Christ gained for us, he will claim that he is positionally holy and acceptable. He is fooling himself. The day the Lord shows him this truth, he is undone and has come tot he end of himself and cries out with Paul - oh wretched man.


This allows Christ to carry out His full work in the man and he is delivered from the sin nature. Sadly this is not happening too much today. We are in dark times indeed when most oppose this most holy truth.

A double welcome here Hep!

 

[Hepzibah]

Thanks Epi. I would just like to add that I do not know the others here apart from frequenting a forum that one member posts on, do not belong to any denomination and was shown this truth by Christ directly and not man as it never reached the area I come from.

 

[Trekson]

Whitestone, Your words: "Those who still sin, have yet to receive the Holy Spirit of Christ fill their body soul and spirit. Otherwise they wouldn't chose to continue in sin, crucifying Jesus again and again in their wickedness."

This is a false adaptation of what is being taught. The verse in question: Heb. 6:4-6 - " For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, [sup]5 [/sup]And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."

What the writer of Hebrews is teaching is that once a person is saved and then "falls away", using the same phrasology as found in 2 Thess. 2:3 - "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition..."

he is speaking about becoming "apostate". Rejecting what one once believed in. This IS NOT speaking of an occasional sin a believer might commit or even backsliding, in the worst case scenario. What you teach shows that you have absolutely no understanding of grace and mercy.

 

[Episkopos]

Thanks Epi. I would just like to add that I do not know the others here apart from frequenting a forum that one member posts on, do not belong to any denomination and was shown this truth by Christ directly and not man as it never reached the area I come from.

I gathered that!!! There are others here who walk this way in the freedom of a new life in Christ with Him OUTSIDE the camp.

 

[mark s]

Is there anyone else who sees this as a salvation issue?

Can a person be born again, then commit sin, and, should he suddenly die, will he be condemned? Or live forever with God?

Love in Christ,
Mark

 

[haz]

I see it as a salvation issue.

A Christian and a sinner are incompatible. However, a believer that is, one who has come to Christ for forgiveness, will still commit sins until he is given revelation by God that it is not acceptable and he is not in the ark of safety unless he is saved from sin - this is the reason Christ died for us. Until he has been brought to that point, which is any time after he comes to Christ, and can be immediately after as we see by the thief on the cross, and given the full revelation and knowledge of the full salvation Christ gained for us, he will claim that he is positionally holy and acceptable. He is fooling himself. The day the Lord shows him this truth, he is undone and has come tot he end of himself and cries out with Paul - oh wretched man.


This allows Christ to carry out His full work in the man and he is delivered from the sin nature. Sadly this is not happening too much today. We are in dark times indeed when most oppose this most holy truth.

Hi Hepzibah,

Can you provide some scripture to support your understanding?
How is it that the thief on the cross gets fast-tracked to the 'full revelation and knowledge of the full salvation Christ gained for us' whilst the rest of us have to go through a process to be delievered from the sin nature or else face the penalty of death.

It seems like your claiming there are 2 different paths to salvation, hence my request for scripture.

 

[Webers_Home]

.

Does anyone see this as a salvation issue?

I see sinless perfection as an after-salvation issue; and sincerely believe
that the two statements below, though they contradict each other, are both
true of born-again Christians.

†. 1John 1:8-10 . . If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and
the truth is not in us. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a
liar, and His word is not in us.

†. 1John 3:9 . .Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed
remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

Note : the two statements above were taken from a letter that John sent to
believers who were already in possession of eternal life before it arrived.

†. 1John 5:13 . .These things I have written to you who believe in the name
of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life

Cliff
/

 

[IanLC]

Dedication (devoted to) leads to consecration (giving over one's life) which by the Holy Spirit birthes sanctification (set apart for the service of God) which blumes in holiness (seperation unto God and His Likeness)!