Works V. Faith

[Sabitarian]

Works V. Faith is the title of this post and an interesting one it is.
James 2:18-20
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
KJV
Ex 20:12-17
12 Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
13 Thou shalt not kill.
14 Thou shalt not commit adultery.
15 Thou shalt not steal.
16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.
KJV
I have been told that by keeping the laws of God I will not be granted salvation by some of the brethren here and I have this to say about that. You need to keep in mind the scriptures of James above, but also the last six of the Ten. If you keep even the last six of these Commandments, that is doing works as it takes work to love a stranger in need. At times it takes work to honor your father and mother, as my father was always thinking of his benefit over mine and I need to tell you it took work on my part when he told me I walked like a duck and that I did not have the brains of a pisant. It would have been easy to show defiance as my brother did, yet I did not. It takes work to make a living and not steal, the easy way to get what you want. Until you understand it takes a lot of work to love the Father, when He does things that are beyond your comprehension at the time. I have heard many time “why has God done this” and found it fascinating that people actually blame God for man made doings. God did not make the Trade Towers fall, it was man who did that. God did allow it to happen, but with good reason, as Protestants have chosen paganistic practices in the name of God, just as Israel did in times past. Israel kept on doing sacrifices to God in the Temple, while doing sacrifices to pagan god’s also. In order for you to keep Sunday as the day of worship, you need to show where in scripture you are specifically told to do so. God does not do anything on a whim nor half heartedly, so He tells you the same thing over and over again, hoping that you will understand and comply with His wishes. None of the scriptures that are used to support Sunday worship will stand the test of who, what and why. If your scripture will not stand this test, then it does not say what you want it to say. It needs to tell who it is that is making the claim on you. It needs to tell why he has the right to do so. And it needs to tell you what it is that you are being told to do. It is as simple as that! There are two places in scripture that fulfill this test and only two and they are in the Old Testament and there are none in the New. I have repeatedly told you that the first day is only mentioned 8 times in the New Testament and none of them answer to the test. So, you need to look out side of these 8 times that it is mentioned to find any place where all of the test questions will be answered, yet none exist. That is why the $1,000,000.00 dollar reward has ever been paid. This test has been in use since the time that there were slaves and slave masters, in other words for thousand’s of years. If a slave ran away and was found by other than his master, the master had to prove that the slave belonged to him, by answering the three questions.
In the end it takes work to follow the Ten Commandments and Faith is just the beginning of the works. The fallen angels know for sure that He is God and the Sabbath is still the day of worship, but you need to take it on Faith, yet Faith alone is not the only thing needed to show your love for God, as the fallen angels have more faith than you will ever have as they know for sure He is God and the Sabbath is still the day Sanctified and Hallowed by God as the day of worship. The only thing that can separate you from them is work’s that show that you are actually a follower of Christ.
humble servant of the Lord God Most High

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

Works V. Faith is the title of this post and an interesting one it is.
James 2:18-20
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

The way I read James is as follows:

A man says ....... "I believe in God"
James says ...... that is not sufficient. Even the devils believe in God

A man says ....... but I am a good person and do only good things (good works)
James says ...... very nice , but that is not sufficient.

A man says ...... so what am I missing ?
James says ...... you must first have faith (in Christ) , then your works count for something.

Best wishes.

 

[williemac]

James indeed said that faith without works is dead. So he gave examples, two to be exact. One was in the case of Abraham's show of willingness to sacrifice his son in obedience to God, showing that he believed that God would fulfill His promise in spite of his son's death. Thus his works proved he believed God.
The other example was in the case of Rahab the harlot, who was told if she helped God's messengers escape, she would be spared. When she helped them, it was a show of her faith, that she believed God. Thus her works proved her faith.

These are the examples James gave. There is no place in his letter that suggests that we are to prove our faith in God by way of works of law. In fact, if we read from other letters in the new testament, we find that if we are doing works of law for justification, it is an indication that we actually DON'T have saving faith. Eternal life is a free gift. Do you believe this or not? The problem is not in doing righteous works, it is in why one does them. If one is adding them to his faith for justification, then God will know the heart, and God will reject this offering of works. Be warned.

On the other hand, if one is showing genuine love for his brother, as James was exhorting them to do in his letter, this is an indication that by faith, one has been given the new birth and one is bearing fruit of the Spirit.....which is...love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self control (all towards our fellow man)." Against such there is no law"

Both the letter of James and the letters of Paul are to be considered scripture, inspired of God, and are to be understood as companion letters of the new testament, not opposing letters. Be advised. Blessings, Howie

 

[neophyte]

We Can Work It Out
is justified by works and not by faith alone." Yet millions of Christians teach the opposite: They claim that we are "justified by faith alone"—saying good works are unnecessary for Christians ... such as Romans 3:28: "For we hold that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law." Romans 4:5 ...

 

[williemac]

We Can Work It Out
is justified by works and not by faith alone." Yet millions of Christians teach the opposite: They claim that we are "justified by faith alone"—saying good works are unnecessary for Christians ... such as Romans 3:28: "For we hold that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law." Romans 4:5 ...

O, but the bible says we ARE justified by faith alone (a conclusion stated in Rom.5:1)
The works are merely and indication that this has indeed taken place. This is a matter of confusion between cause and effect. The works we do as believers are done AFTER the fact that we have been given eternal life. The works are the effect. They do not contribute to the cause. This can be understood through examples. One such would be the subject of fruit. A tree cannot bear apples unless it is first, an apple tree.
Our lives as Christians begin when we are made new creations. Under the law, they were told to do rightoeus works. However, this is like telling a dog to meow like a cat. We might be able to train one to do so, but at the end of the day, it is merely a dog acting like a cat. Under the old covenant, the good works were merely about sinners acting like something else. Under this covenant, we are first made trees of righteousness. Then we are instructed to learn of our new nature and act accordingly. Thus the tree of righteousness bears fruit of righteousness. But the new nature comes first. It comes as a RESULT of having been justified. Therefore, the only way we can be justified by works in any way, shape, or form, would be if we could go back in time to when we were not yet justified.

So here is where this subject becomes deceiving; There are in fact, many people in this world who have not accepted the sacrifice of Jesus for thier sin, but yet they are basically good people by most standards, showing love, compassion, charity, and good works. Thus an unbeliever can outwardly be very similar to a believer. But God knows the heart. We are not instructed anywhere to go about proving to one another that we are believers. This is God's business. James was not asking for proof. He was merely pointing out that they should be behaving with more love towards others if they were really of the faith. He was exhorting them to pull up their socks and start acting like real believers.

You see, where this subject becomes a matter of bondage and oppression, is when we introduce the subject of law into it. The law demands perfection. Anything short of perfection will result in condemnation, under the law. However, under grace, this has been removed. We are not required to be perfect or perfectly consistent in our walk in order to keep or maintain our good standing with God. Some will bear more fruit, or even better quality fruit, than others. But all will inherit the kingdom if they are bearing at least some fruit. Those who fail will be those who make a determined effort to resisit bearing any fruit whatsoever. This can be seen in the parable of the talents, where the talent was buried. In that parable, it would have been acceptable if the person merely put his money in the bank and let it grow interest. This shows that a minimal amount of fruit is enough to keep the individual from being condemned. This is grace. Eternal life is either a free gift or it is not. There is no middle ground.

Those who insist on applying their works of law to contribute to their justification are treading on dangerous ground. This reveals that they feel justification is a future event rather than a present reality. This puts works into the arena of cause rather than effect. We are new creations, not by any works we have done or will do. have a nice day in our Lord, Howie

 

[neophyte]

Howie, Romans 5:1-2 states, "Therefore, since we are justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Through him we have obtained access to this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in our hope of sharing the glory of God."
This text indicates that after having received the grace of justification, we now have access to God’s grace by which we stand in Christ, and we can then rejoice in the hope of sharing God’s glory. That word '' hope" indicates that what we are hoping for we do not yet possess.
"For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them" (Eph. 2:10). Without a doubt, we must continue to work in Christ as Christians; it is also true that it is only by the grace of God we can continue to do so. But even more importantly, Scripture tells us this grace can be resisted. Second Corinthians 6:1 tells us that "Working together with him, then, we entreat you not to accept the grace of God in vain."
St. Paul urged believers in Antioch—and all of us by implication—"to continue in the grace of God." Indeed, Paul warns Christians that they can "fall from grace" in Galatians 5:4.

 

[Sabitarian]

YES! you are saved by Grace and not of yourself, as nothing that you can or will do qualifies you for Grace, for all of your works are as filthy rags before Christ.
This being said, if you do noy the works of the law you have fallen from grace, honor father and mother, do not steal, and the like, but the one that is in contention here is the one that begins Remember! This one is the reason for the Fallen Church in the Book of Revelation and "come out of her my people" is the message given to the Fallen Church. It is easy to identify this Church as it can only be the Protestant Church as the Catholic Church fell from the beginning as warned about by Paul. Now, why has the Protestant Church Fallen from Grace? It is just the fact that they have followed the ways of the Papacy and forsaken the Ways of God, given in His word. The Catholic Church has stated many times that you are a laughing stock as you say that first day worship is Biblical, yet have no scripture that states this, only inuendo and conjecture that some might possible say that. None of any of the scriptures say that any of the laws of God has ever been done away with nor repealed by God. Matthew 5:17-18 And many Catholic writtings state flatly that the change of the day of worship is their claim of authority and God verifies this in His Word. Thus if you fight to keep your day of worship on Sunday, you are fighting against the Creator and the God that you claim to serve. I challenge any of you Protestants to find any scripture that specifically states your cause and can be presented in a court of law and provide proof positive that you are right! It will also be in the running for the reward of $1,000,000,00 which has been offered for more years than I can say. If you can not provide this kind of proof for your traditions, then they are Pagan! You are more like the Jews than you know as traditions are what got them in trouble in the first place and your traditions are the reason you are the Fallen Church of Revelations. Christmas , Easter,All Hallows Eve are all traditions of the Pagan church and are against the prophesy of Revelation 22:18-19, as they are added to scripture and you have taken away the Holy Days of God and replaced them with your traditions of man.
humble servant of the Lord God Most High

 

[williemac]

Howie, Romans 5:1-2 states, "Therefore, since we are justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Through him we have obtained access to this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in our hope of sharing the glory of God."
This text indicates that after having received the grace of justification, we now have access to God’s grace by which we stand in Christ, and we can then rejoice in the hope of sharing God’s glory. That word '' hope" indicates that what we are hoping for we do not yet possess.

This is true in one sense, in that we have not yet partaken of the resurrection, which is a future event. However, we are using the word "hope" in our modern language, differently than it was originally used in translation from the original. We use it as though we are wishing for something, but have no certainty in regard to it, such as " I hope I win the lotterey".
However, it was not intended to be translated in that same context. It is more accurately meant to be an anticipation of a future event. The fact is, our future and even our present life with Christ is all based on a promise from God. For space saving purposes. I will not go into the references. But we know that Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him as righteousness. The promise was given to him. We are partakers of this promise the same way, by simply believing God. Therefore, faith becomes the substance of that which is hoped for (anticipated), and the evidence of that which is not yet seen (Heb.11:1) One translation uses the term "assured expectation" in that verse. So I ask, at what point will you be assured, and expect to receive, the promise that He who began the work in you will actually complete it on the day of Christ (Phil.1:6)? Do you believe God or not?

"For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them" (Eph. 2:10). Without a doubt, we must continue to work in Christ as Christians; it is also true that it is only by the grace of God we can continue to do so. But even more importantly, Scripture tells us this grace can be resisted. Second Corinthians 6:1 tells us that "Working together with him, then, we entreat you not to accept the grace of God in vain."
St. Paul urged believers in Antioch—and all of us by implication—"to continue in the grace of God." Indeed, Paul warns Christians that they can "fall from grace" in Galatians 5:4.

I agree totally. However, I think you may well have missed the other parts to this equation. If you fully read and study the letter to the Galatians, you will find that they were being reprimanded and corrected by Paul for their attempt to go back under the law for justification. And this is exactly how he said that they had fallen from grace (Gal.5:4). Read it for yourself. I would advise that you actually check these things out before attempting to quote from them. You have turned it around to exactly the opposite meaning from its context. They were not in trouble for a lack of works, but rather for turning to the law for justification.

In order to continue in grace, we are simply required to continue in the method by which it came to us in the first place....; BY FAITH. As I have shared from the beginning, our walk in Christ begins with the new birth, whereby we are made new creations (2Cor.5:17). As well, we can confirm in Rev.3:20,21 that we are urged to allow His presence to indwell us for the purpose of fellowship.
It was never meant for us to be lacking in assurance or the guarantee of our inheritance. But if it depends on our obedience and our own effort, then surely we will never have any garuntee. However, the Holy Spirit (if a person has Him within) is given as a guarantee (2Cor.5:5, Eph.1:14). So I ask, what business does anyone have in robbing the saints of their assurance through works of law, binding a yoke on their necks that they themselves cannot remove?
We are not required to maintain our relationship with Christ through our works of law. We are simply told to remain (abide) in Him and HE will cause the increase of fruit (John15:5). As I shared, the law demands perfection. None of us can bear this burden. Perfection is a gift of grace. It is within our new man already (Eph.4:24) . We simply need to bear fruit.
Our outward lives in this age will never attain to the perfect righteousness that He has already placed within us in seed form. However, He has begun this work in us and He will complete it. If it were up to us to work for our eternal life, saving ourselves, then His sacrifce was a complete waste of time and unbearable pain. Our part is to humbly accept the free gift. And I mean humble. It is the pride in us that wants to take some of the credit for what we are promised to recieve. It takes humility to accept it by faith. Believe this, please. It is written. (Luke18:10-14). blessings, Howie

 

[jiggyfly]

30 What does all this mean? Even though the Gentiles were not trying to follow God’s standards, they were made right with God. And it was by faith that this took place.31 But the people of Israel, who tried so hard to get right with God by keeping the law, never succeeded.32 Why not? Because they were trying to get right with God by keeping the law instead of by trusting in him. They stumbled over the great rock in their path.33 God warned them of this in the Scriptures when he said,

“I am placing a stone in Jerusalem that makes people stumble, a rock that makes them fall. But anyone who trusts in him will never be disgraced.”[
Romans 9:30-33 (NLT)

Yet we know that a person is made right with God by faith in Jesus Christ, not by obeying the law. And we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we might be made right with God because of our faith in Christ, not because we have obeyed the law. For no one will ever be made right with God by obeying the law."* Gal. 2:16

One could also say that the works of the law are an indication of a lack of faith in Christ's work at the cross.

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

O, but the bible says we ARE justified by faith alone (a conclusion stated in Rom.5:1)

The works are merely and indication that this has indeed taken place. This is a matter of confusion between cause and effect. The works we do as believers are done AFTER the fact that we have been given eternal life. The works are the effect. They do not contribute to the cause.

AMEN !! williemac .... You have explained it perfectly

 

[Butch5]

O, but the bible says we ARE justified by faith alone (a conclusion stated in Rom.5:1)
The works are merely and indication that this has indeed taken place. This is a matter of confusion between cause and effect. The works we do as believers are done AFTER the fact that we have been given eternal life. The works are the effect. They do not contribute to the cause. This can be understood through examples. One such would be the subject of fruit. A tree cannot bear apples unless it is first, an apple tree.
Our lives as Christians begin when we are made new creations. Under the law, they were told to do rightoeus works. However, this is like telling a dog to meow like a cat. We might be able to train one to do so, but at the end of the day, it is merely a dog acting like a cat. Under the old covenant, the good works were merely about sinners acting like something else. Under this covenant, we are first made trees of righteousness. Then we are instructed to learn of our new nature and act accordingly. Thus the tree of righteousness bears fruit of righteousness. But the new nature comes first. It comes as a RESULT of having been justified. Therefore, the only way we can be justified by works in any way, shape, or form, would be if we could go back in time to when we were not yet justified.

So here is where this subject becomes deceiving; There are in fact, many people in this world who have not accepted the sacrifice of Jesus for thier sin, but yet they are basically good people by most standards, showing love, compassion, charity, and good works. Thus an unbeliever can outwardly be very similar to a believer. But God knows the heart. We are not instructed anywhere to go about proving to one another that we are believers. This is God's business. James was not asking for proof. He was merely pointing out that they should be behaving with more love towards others if they were really of the faith. He was exhorting them to pull up their socks and start acting like real believers.

You see, where this subject becomes a matter of bondage and oppression, is when we introduce the subject of law into it. The law demands perfection. Anything short of perfection will result in condemnation, under the law. However, under grace, this has been removed. We are not required to be perfect or perfectly consistent in our walk in order to keep or maintain our good standing with God. Some will bear more fruit, or even better quality fruit, than others. But all will inherit the kingdom if they are bearing at least some fruit. Those who fail will be those who make a determined effort to resisit bearing any fruit whatsoever. This can be seen in the parable of the talents, where the talent was buried. In that parable, it would have been acceptable if the person merely put his money in the bank and let it grow interest. This shows that a minimal amount of fruit is enough to keep the individual from being condemned. This is grace. Eternal life is either a free gift or it is not. There is no middle ground.

Those who insist on applying their works of law to contribute to their justification are treading on dangerous ground. This reveals that they feel justification is a future event rather than a present reality. This puts works into the arena of cause rather than effect. We are new creations, not by any works we have done or will do. have a nice day in our Lord, Howie

How does dead faith produce works?


Romans 5 does not say a man is justified by faith alone. Paul's conclusion in Romans 5 is that a man is justified by faith and "Not" the works of the Mosaic Law.

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

Timothy tells us who the law was made for .......

[sup]9 [/sup]We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, [sup]10 [/sup]for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—
and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine [sup]11 [/sup]that conforms to the gospel concerning the glory of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me.

 

[williemac]

How does dead faith produce works?


Romans 5 does not say a man is justified by faith alone. Paul's conclusion in Romans 5 is that a man is justified by faith and "Not" the works of the Mosaic Law.

Very good point. I would agree that Paul was insistant that the works of law could never justify a man. However, he compared these against faith only. He did not enter any kind of works into the arena concerning the subject of justification or righteousness. He insisted that these were gifts of grace. In fact, he said it was so that no man could boast before God. As I shared before, this is a matter of humility. Faith is not even the qualifiction for eternal life. It is merely the means by which it is received. The qualification for life is humility. I shared at least one verse from Luke 18 in a previous post. As well, James said that God gives grace to the humble and resists the proud. Self exaltaion is the original sin that caused Ludicer to fall and become Satan, when he chose to become as God (as if that were possible). This is the #1 issue between God and anyone who has a free will (the ability to think, reason, and respond).

With that point, I will challange anyone to find anything other than faith that is a means by which we are justified before God. There are no other kinds of works in this arena. All of our works as Christians are after justification and righteousness, and life through the new birth are given, and not contributing factors for these.
Of course, if anyone does not bear any fruit, he will be rejected and cast into the lake of fire. However, this would take a deliberate effort, as fruit will be born if not resisted. There are those who make up their own kinds of rules for how much fruit is enough. But the parable of the talents reveals that very little is sufficient. The man would have been accepted if he merely put the money in the bank and let it grow interest all on its own. I feel it is the pride in a person that wants there to be more strickness than this on the part of God. My comment remains the same. Either life is a free gift or it isn't.

I am on my way to an out of town job and I regret will not be able to continue this discussion for more than a week. My apology for this to all. Cheers, Howie

 

[Butch5]

Very good point. I would agree that Paul was insistant that the works of law could never justify a man. However, he compared these against faith only. He did not enter any kind of works into the arena concerning the subject of justification or righteousness. He insisted that these were gifts of grace. In fact, he said it was so that no man could boast before God. As I shared before, this is a matter of humility. Faith is not even the qualifiction for eternal life. It is merely the means by which it is received. The qualification for life is humility. I shared at least one verse from Luke 18 in a previous post. As well, James said that God gives grace to the humble and resists the proud. Self exaltaion is the original sin that caused Ludicer to fall and become Satan, when he chose to become as God (as if that were possible). This is the #1 issue between God and anyone who has a free will (the ability to think, reason, and respond).

With that point, I will challange anyone to find anything other than faith that is a means by which we are justified before God. There are no other kinds of works in this arena. All of our works as Christians are after justification and righteousness, and life through the new birth are given, and not contributing factors for these.
Of course, if anyone does not bear any fruit, he will be rejected and cast into the lake of fire. However, this would take a deliberate effort, as fruit will be born if not resisted. There are those who make up their own kinds of rules for how much fruit is enough. But the parable of the talents reveals that very little is sufficient. The man would have been accepted if he merely put the money in the bank and let it grow interest all on its own. I feel it is the pride in a person that wants there to be more strickness than this on the part of God. My comment remains the same. Either life is a free gift or it isn't.

I am on my way to an out of town job and I regret will not be able to continue this discussion for more than a week. My apology for this to all. Cheers, Howie

Hi Howie,

I agree with some of what you've stated here. However, the fact remains that dead faith cannot produce works. You gave a challenge to find anything other than faith by which one is justified. James said a man is justified by his works also. The statement by James simply doesn't allow for the modern ineterpretation of Paul's words. I would suggest that Paul, when speaking of faith verses works is speaking of the works of hte Mosaic Law and not good deeds or works of obedience. Paul himself said that doing good deeds leads to eternal ife.

[sup]5[/sup] But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;​

[sup]6[/sup] Who will render to every man according to his deeds:​

[sup]7[/sup] To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:​

[sup]8[/sup] But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,​

[sup]9[/sup] Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;​

[sup]10[/sup] But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:​

(Rom 2:5-10 KJV)

Paul said that eveyone will be judged according to his deeds, those who do good receive eternal life. That statement is pretty clear, good deeds play a role in one's final destiny.

How could Paul say in one place that one is not saved by works and in another say that "Good" works determine one's destiny?

It's really rather simple if we go to the original teachings and avoid modern teaching. Paul, when speaking of works that cannot save is speaking of the works of hte Mosaic Law, not good works.

We see the same thing from Jesus. In Mathew 25 Jesus speaks of the sheep and the goats, their destiny is determined by there actions. Likewise in John 5 Jesus said.

[sup]28[/sup] Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,​

[sup]29[/sup] And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.​

(Joh 5:28-29 KJV)

The apostle John tells us the same thing.

[sup]12[/sup] And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.​

[sup]13[/sup] And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.​

[sup]14[/sup] And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.​

[sup]15[/sup] And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. (Rev 20:12-15 KJV)

Likewise Paul says,

[sup]5[/sup] For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. (Eph 5:5 KJV)

There are many more that show a man's works do play a role in his salvation. We've seen from James that faith if it has no works is dead.

 

[rand]

the dead were judged accoring to their works because they did not trust in Christ to cleans them from their sins., the church were not judged according to their works because they have trusted in Christ's redemptive work at the cross.

further down in Eph 5 Paul says that the wrath of God is for the unrighteous not the righteous. Those who believe in Christ are given the gift of righteousness apart from works.

works--being good or bad--is the heart of the old covenant of the law. If you are under the new covenant, you got there by faith and the book of Titus tells us that the way we came to Christ we should live our whole life. If you are under the new covenant you will have works (the works of God are this: that you believe in the one He has sent--john 6:29). Eventhough works are a normal part of a Christ follower's life, Those works are not part of the covenant, only faith is.

Otherwise, how many works does a person have to have? How often does a Christian have to have those works? Every day? two or three times a day? Once a week. What is the standard amount of works and which verse points out that standard? You do realize that Abraham was called righteous because of His faith and the works that followed (offering his son as a sacrafice), didn't follow until about 30 + years after God called him righteous becuase of his faith.

The only reason so many in the church are so consumed with works is because Satan is trying to keep his authority and strength over the body of Christ by keeping them under the law (to what ever degree). Way too much of the church is trying to mix the new and old covenant--that should not be.

 

[neophyte]

Gal. 5:6 – thus, the faith that justifies us is “faith working through love,” not faith alone. This is one of the best summaries of Catholic teaching. Faith and love (manifested by works) are always connected. Faith (a process of thought) and love (an action) are never separated in the Scriptures. Eph. 3:17; 1 Thess. 3:6,12-13; 2 Thess. 1:3; 1 John 3:23; Rev. 2:4-5,19. Further, all faith (initial and perfected) are gratuitous gifts from God, and not earned or merited by any human action. God effects everything, both the willing and the achievement. But God also requires human action, which is necessary to perfect our faith.

 

[Butch5]

the dead were judged accoring to their works because they did not trust in Christ to cleans them from their sins., the church were not judged according to their works because they have trusted in Christ's redemptive work at the cross.

further down in Eph 5 Paul says that the wrath of God is for the unrighteous not the righteous. Those who believe in Christ are given the gift of righteousness apart from works.

[sup]KJV [/sup]1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;​

[sup]6[/sup] Who will render to every man according to his deeds: (Rom 2:5-6 KJV)

works--being good or bad--is the heart of the old covenant of the law. If you are under the new covenant, you got there by faith and the book of Titus tells us that the way we came to Christ we should live our whole life. If you are under the new covenant you will have works (the works of God are this: that you believe in the one He has sent--john 6:29). Eventhough works are a normal part of a Christ follower's life, Those works are not part of the covenant, only faith is.

The Old Covenant was for the Jews. They were the only ones under the Mosaic Law. The New Covenant also has laws that must be followed.

Otherwise, how many works does a person have to have? How often does a Christian have to have those works? Every day? two or three times a day? Once a week. What is the standard amount of works and which verse points out that standard?

I'd suggest reading the parable of the tallents.

14 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.​

[sup]15[/sup] And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.​

[sup]16[/sup] Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.​

[sup]17[/sup] And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.​

[sup]18[/sup] But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.​

[sup]19[/sup] After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.​

[sup]20[/sup] And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.​

[sup]21[/sup] His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.​

[sup]22[/sup] He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.​

[sup]23[/sup] His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.​

[sup]24[/sup] Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:​

[sup]25[/sup] And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.​

[sup]26[/sup] His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:​

[sup]27[/sup] Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.​

[sup]28[/sup] Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.​

[sup]29[/sup] For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.​

[sup]30[/sup] And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (Mat 25:14-30 KJV)

You do realize that Abraham was called righteous because of His faith and the works that followed (offering his son as a sacrafice), didn't follow until about 30 + years after God called him righteous becuase of his faith.

You also realize that Abraham obeyed long before he was deemed righteous, correct? When God told Abraham to get out of his father's house unto a land that the Lord would show him, he did.

The only reason so many in the church are so consumed with works is because Satan is trying to keep his authority and strength over the body of Christ by keeping them under the law (to what ever degree). Way too much of the church is trying to mix the new and old covenant--that should not be.

Those who desire to follow Christ will be concerned about doing the works that are required for salvation.

 

[rand]

Hi Butch,

One question: What works are required for salvation, and where in the scriptures do you find it? Okay, that's one question in two parts :0

The only works I know of are mentioned in John 6:29

Abraham believed God so he acted like he believed God by doing what God told him to do. But, Abraham was found righteous by his faith not by his works. His faith caused him to have works. Faith will do that. No matter what you believe, you will act out (for the most part) the way you believe. If you believe you are taking a huge risk of life getting on an airplane, then you will act like you are affraid of flying, esp. when you get on an airplane, or by the fact that you refuse to get on an airplane. And that goes for anything you have faith in, or anything you believe--whether it's true or not, if you believe it you will act like it (for the most part). You will have works that support your faith no matter what that faith is in. That's all these scriptures are talking about.

If you try to tell people you are the best diver in the world, but are affraid of driving, then that faith is dead.

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

We must always remember that James described the faith as dead. He did not say the faith was absent or salvation was lost.

Jesus would have said .... "Oh Ye of little faith"

I own a car that does not run. It is dead on the side of the road.

But I can still say I own a car.

 

[Endtime]

If you are the car that don't run then you will either receive repair or be sent to the Junk Yard.