Spiritual Warfare

[Episkopos]

God's.

No...he was not in Christ. God justifies....because He is merciful and just. But Abraham walked as a mere mortal man. It just so happens that he trusted God. Same for the Publican and the thief on the cross...AND Zacchaeus who gave back what he had stolen.

 

[Behold]

Not at all. Without entering into Christ there is NO holiness.

God didnt accept "Abraham's Walk" as Abraham was of the linage of ADAM, and so, by one man's sin, Abraham, had that same issue.

What Abraham gave God, was Faith, and God accepted it, .. Genesis 15:6 .... Abraham “believed the Lord, and he counted it to him as righteousness.

 

[GracePeace]

Paul was not accepted by God based on a "thorn in his flesh"...

He was already a born again Christian, based on God accepting Paul's faith in Christ.... long before he was stoned to death, ..which is why he saw the vision of 3rd Heaven.

Also, its not recorded that this "messenger of Satan", that was causing Paul's discomfort, was not later resolved.
Paul lived about another Decade, and perhaps this issue was resolved.
The Bible does not tell us.

This is one of those....>>"i wonder what happened"....
Its like DEMAS, who was Paul's convert... who "loved this present world"....
Its not recorded that He didnt come back to the ministry....
Maybe he did...


Another one is Paul and Barnabas... who "split" because of (John) Mark.
Its not recorded that they never "made up"..
Maybe they did.

Some things that the Bible shows us, are not always resolved, later in Scripture.

The point was there was a difference in emphases : you emphasize the Cross, Episkopos emphasizes the ongoing intervention of Christ, sticking with the ongoing process.

 

[Episkopos]

We are still talking about the OT< and Abraham, ??

In that case, there is no Cross raised, No Christ on it,.. so, that Salvation, that is NT..... was not available to Abraham, or to Adam.

What Abraham gave God, was Faith, and God accepted it, .. Genesis 15:6 .... Abraham “believed the Lord, and he counted it to him as righteousness.

Exactly...like any other righteous man in the OT. Have you ever heard of Phinehas? He killed two people and God justified him the same way. He did what was right in God's eyes. So God justified him.

Simple.

No need to contradict the entire New Testament

 

[Behold]

No...he was not in Christ. God justifies... It just so happens that he trusted God.

It was not "Just so happens" that Abrham chose to Believe, and God accepted the Faith of Abraham.

Abraham chose to believe, and God accepted His Faith ... "Faith is counted by God as Righteousness".

 

[Episkopos]

It was not "Just so happens" that Abrham chose to Believe, and God accepted the Faith of Abraham.

Abraham chose to believe, and God accepted His Faith ... "Faith is counted by God as Righteousness".

That's what I'm saying. You are adding in words willy-nilly to have the bible say...And God justified him with His own righteousness....or some other invention.

Look you believe that before the cross no man was born again OF THE SPIRIT. No man could see or enter INTO the kingdom. All people had was the law and doing what they could.

Abraham did what he could...by trusting God. VERY simple.

Verdict. Abraham was counted to be a righteous man. Period.

 

[Behold]

Exactly...like any other righteous man in the OT. Have you ever heard of Phinehas? He killed two people and God justified him the same way. He did what was right in God's eyes. So God justified him.

Simple.

No need to contradict the entire New Testament

You are using an OT situation, to disclaim "Justification by faith"..

So, you are the one contradicting NT Salvation.
See, NT salvation, produces a different situation, because its based on Christ, alone.
OT Saints, were not "seated in heavenly places" because their righteousness was not based on Christ's Cross.
Jesus had to deal with all of those later... after he died.
Whereas, the born again, are already "seated in heavenly places", "In Christ".
NO OT Saint, or person... like Phinehas, was "in Christ".

 

[Episkopos]

You are using an OT situation, to disclaim "Justification by faith"..

I'm doing the very opposite. I, like Paul, am showing a precedent for justification by faith without works in the Torah.

So, you are the one contradicting NT Salvation.

I'm upholding it. You are NOT paying attention.

See, NT salvation, produces a different situation, because its based on Christ, alone.
OT Saints, were not "seated in heavenly places" because their righteousness was not based on Christ's Cross.
Jesus had to deal with all of those later... after he died.
Whereas, the born again, are already "seated in heavenly places", "In Christ".
NO OT Saint, or person... like Phinehas, was "in Christ".

You are not coherent.

Phinehas was not in Christ...and neither was Abraham..both were justified by God the very same way.


Then stood up Phinehas, and executed judgment: and so the plague was stayed.
And that was counted unto him for righteousness unto all generations for evermore. Ps. 106

Who counted it for righteousness to Phinehas? God did.

 

[GracePeace]

I'm doing the very opposite. I, like Paul, am showing a precedent for justification by faith without works in the Torah.


I'm upholding it. You are NOT paying attention.

You are not coherent.

Phinehas was not in Christ...and neither was Abraham..both were justified by God the very same way.


Then stood up Phinehas, and executed judgment: and so the plague was stayed.
And that was counted unto him for righteousness unto all generations for evermore. Ps. 106

Who counted it for righteousness to Phinehas? God did.

LOL He is 100% incoherent.
Never on topic.
Never directly answers.
LOL I'm so glad someone else sees it.

 

[Behold]

That's what I'm saying. You are adding in words willy-nilly to have the bible say...And God justified him with His own righteousness....or some other invention.

Only God has righteousness to impute, impart, charge to, and give as a gift.
If God does not do this, for OT people, or NT people, then they are "still in adam", = unrighteous... .separated from God.

Look you believe that before the cross no man was born again OF THE SPIRIT.

An OT person, could be esteemed "righteous" but they could not be born again, as there was no eternal basis yet... (No Cross of Christ)
Christ had to die, before anyone could be born again.
Christ is the "first fruit", of many who will become the same, and He had to DIE before this could happen for anyone.

No man could see or enter INTO the kingdom. All people had was the law and doing what they could.

And that was Not Abraham, as He was Justified before the "Law", and had to wait for Jesus to arrive.

Abraham did what he could...by trusting God. VERY simple.

He gave God His faith...>>He BELIEVED....., so, "faith is counted by God""

Now, in the NT< its a specific faith......Its Faith in CHRIST... and the Forgiveness, is based on the Cross, and that is Eternal Forgiveness, because "Jesus is the one time ETERNAL Sacrifice for SIN".

Verdict. Abraham was counted to be a righteous man. Period.

"by Faith".

 

[Episkopos]

LOL He is 100% incoherent.
Never on topic.
Never directly answers.
LOL I'm so glad someone else sees it.

It's not a question of who sees it. It's a question of losing one's religious certainty by being exposed to the truth.

 

[GracePeace]

It's not a question of who sees it. It's a question of losing one's religious certainty by being exposed to the truth.

@Behold knows God, he just doesn't know Scripture.

 

[Episkopos]

Only God has righteousness to impute, impart, charge to, and give as a gift.

As God did to Pninehas and many others in the OT....including Job BEFORE he was tested and met the Lord.

If God does not do this, for OT people, or NT people, then they are "still in adam", = unrighteous... .separated from God.

You have the wrong idea about either testament. Being in Adam doesn't mean a person is unrighteous...where does that idea come? Some commentary? It's not in the bible.

An OT person, could be esteemed "righteous" but they could not be born again, as there was no eternal basis yet... (No Cross of Christ)
Christ had to die, before anyone could be born again.
Christ is the "first fruit", of many who will become the same, and He had to DIE before this could happen for anyone.



And that was Not Abraham, as He was Justified before the "Law", and had to wait for Jesus to arrive.




He gave God His faith...>>He BELIEVED....., so, "faith is counted by God""

Now, in the NT< its a specific faith......Its Faith in CHRIST... and the Forgiveness, is based on the Cross, and that is Eternal Forgiveness, because "Jesus is the one time ETERNAL Sacrifice for SIN".



"by Faith".

Mass confusion on a biblical scale. Incoherent.

 

[Episkopos]

@Behold knows God, he just doesn't know Scripture.

I appreciate humour....I do.

Someone who knows God is coherent in their understanding of the scriptures. Someone who ONLY knows the scriptures a certain way...by indoctrination, say, knows nothing at all.

 

[GracePeace]

I appreciate humour....I do.

Sorry, I sincerely believe Behold knows God, he just doesn't know Scripture.

 

[GracePeace]

I appreciate humour....I do.

Someone who knows God is coherent in their understanding of the scriptures. Someone who ONLY knows the scriptures a certain way...by indoctrination, say, knows nothing at all.

I do not think people who disagree with me can't know God--I've seen Catholics, Orthodox, and all manner of Protestants who disagree with me who know God. You know John Piper said he never lusted after a woman other than his wife since he got married ? That's grace!

 

[Behold]

I'm doing the very opposite. I, like Paul, am showing a precedent for justification by faith without works in the Torah.

You have stated that Abraham was a "righteous man". yet God is "no respecter of persons", so notice...
If Abraham was already of God's Righteousness, then God didnt have to accept Abraham's faith, so that Abraham could receive God's Righteousness.

I'm upholding it. You are NOT paying attention.

Paul teaches that "Abraham is the father of our faith".. .not because Abraham was a righteous man, but because God accepted His faith , and it was "counted to him, as God's righteousness".

In the NT, God accepts our Faith in Christ, to do the same for the BELIEVER.

Salvation, forgiveness, is always "faith based" and never based on law, or deeds, or self effort.

You are not coherent

You are not honest.

Here is the thing....understanding "Justification by faith", is simply to understand that God gives His Righteousness, to a Beleiver., not to a worker, or a doer, or a law keeper.

Phinehas was not in Christ...and neither was Abraham..both were justified by God the very same way.

Yes, they were Justified, but they were not born again.
I can tell you this again, if that could help you understand it.
Or is 3x enough?

 

[Behold]

Sorry, I sincerely believe Behold knows God, he just doesn't know Scripture.

You can't prove that, but lying is easy, isnt it?

- see you there....

 

[GracePeace]

You can't prove that, but lying is easy, isnt it?

- see you there....

There is no point in discussing Scripture with you--you can't stay on topic. LOL
Anyone can go and look at all our past discussions to see what that looks like.

 

[Behold]

We can be justified while still walking as a man...like t the thief on the cross.

Nonsense.

Listen, there were 2 dying Thieves... and the One whom Jesus accepted, was accepted because of Faith.
The other didnt believe.

Notice that He called Jesus.........>"LORD".. and that is because He believed.
You missed that part of the Verse, as its not in your commentary set, @Episkopos

So, all your "justified by walking as a man". is Self Righteousness, and you have plenty of that in your Theology.