IS THE RAPTURE BEFORE THE TRIBULATION?

[The Gospel of Christ]

Matthew 24:21-22

Yes — and who is Jesus talking about in that passage? “Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted... ye shall be hated of all nations for my name’s sake.”
— Matthew 24:9 He’s talking to His disciples — not the Sanhedrin. Not the Knesset and not a future secular state.


This tribulation affects believers, saints, the elect (True Israel) — not just the land of False Israel™. Later in the same chapter: “But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.”
— Matthew 24:13 This is about faithful endurance, not national ethnic destiny. - The tribulation is about the final clash between the saints and the Beast, not "refining modern Israel".

Jesus returns to save His Bride, not to install a third temple to begin slaughtering animals or fulfill some Scofield, dream-board delusion.

Elevating ethnic Israel above Christ is not theology — it’s idolatry.

These Dispensationalist evangelicals are so thoroughly brainwashed, they don’t even realize they are Israel.

Not modern geography.
Not a secular government.
Not a group of Eastern European converts backed by U.N. paperwork and Rothschild money.

The Body of Christ is Israel.
The true sons of Abraham are those who are in Christ — not those with a passport from Tel Aviv.

Scripture says it plainly:

“And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.”
— Galatians 3:29

“He is not a Jew, which is one outwardly… but he is a Jew, which is one inwardly… in the spirit.”
— Romans 2:28–29

“They which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.”
— Galatians 3:7

So no — Israel is not a modern political state founded in 1948 by atheists and international bankers.
And it’s certainly not a collection of Eastern European identity thieves whose bloodline traces back to Khazar converts, not to Abraham.

The Church is the Israel of God — the remnant, the elect, the Bride.

If you’re in Christ… you are Israel.

If you reject Christ… you are cut off from the covenant — no matter what blood runs in your veins. Romans 9:6–8 (KJV), Romans 11:19–22 (KJV), Galatians 3:7 (KJV), Galatians 3:29 (KJV), Philippians 3:3 (KJV), Ephesians 2:12–13 (KJV), Galatians 6:15–16 (KJV)

 

[marks]

The great multitude seen in heaven came OUT OF the Great Tribulation, meaning they were in it!
These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. REV. 7:14
But listen, keep your view, one of many.

Check out John's uses of "ek" and "apo", he frequently switched them. Just sayin'.

And you can keep your view also! Isn't that nice of me?

Much love!

 

[keithr]

The great multitude seen in heaven came OUT OF the Great Tribulation, meaning they were in it!
These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. REV. 7:14

Chapter 5 tells of the 24 elders, symbolic of the resurrected Church, saying, Revelation 5:8-10 (WEB):

(8) Now when he had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.​

(9) They sang a new song, saying, “You are worthy to take the book, and to open its seals: for you were killed, and bought us for God with your blood, out of every tribe, language, people, and nation,​

(10) and made us kings and priests to our God, and we will reign on the earth.”​

Then in chapter 6 the Lamb (Jesus) opens the seven seals on the book. After opening the sixth seal it says, Revelation 6:17 (WEB):

(17) for the great day of his wrath has come; and who is able to stand?”​

After that, Revelation 7:1 (WEB):

(1) After this, I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, so that no wind would blow on the earth, or on the sea, or on any tree.​

​

(9) After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude, which no man could count, out of every nation and of all tribes, peoples, and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands.​

Therefore at that point the body of Christ, the Church, had already been resurrected and caught up to heaven and were with Jesus. That is why John did not know who these people were. The elder continued saying, Revelation 7:15 (WEB):

(15) Therefore {because they washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb} they {the great multitude} are before the throne of God, they serve him day and night in his temple. He who sits on the throne will spread his tabernacle over them.​

They become servants of God, not sons and heirs of God and members of the body of Christ. Many people who remain after the rapture has occurred will then believe, but they will have missed out on the acceptable time of sacrifice in order to become a member of the body of Christ. But because they believe they will be granted a spiritual resurrection, whereas the unbelievers will have a physical (human) resurrection.

Revelation 7:17 (WEB):

(17) for the Lamb who is in the middle of the throne shepherds them, and leads them to springs of life-giving waters. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.”​

They need life-giving waters because they are not resurrected with immortal bodies, which only those that have a part in the first resurrection/rapture will have. They will have tears because they will realise that they missed out on a great inheritance because they did not believe before the acceptable time ended.

 

[rebuilder 454]

The great multitude seen in heaven came OUT OF the Great Tribulation, meaning they were in it!
These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. REV. 7:14
But listen, keep your view, one of many.

Of course they did. Jesus told us about 1/2 the church is left behind.
Nobody believes they didn't come out of the trib.
It matches perfectly with "all refusing the mark are killed, every man woman and child."

So who passes through it???
You just made the case for the impossibility of anyone making it through.
Thanks!
( your theory is one of many)
Pretrib rapture is from Jesus words. You can keep your theory.

 

[rebuilder 454]

There's so much dispensationalist misinformation and nonsense in this thread its staggering.. The blind leading the blind..

Actually, Jesus didn’t teach a pre-trib rapture — He refuted it directly.
Let’s start with what Jesus Himself said:

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days… then shall appear the sign of the Son of Man… and he shall gather together his elect…”
— Matthew 24:29–31 (If we were already gone, there would be no elect left to gather.)

That is your rapture.
It’s not secret.
It’s not before the tribulation.
It’s after.

So no — I’m not saying Jesus was wrong.
I’m saying your Scofield goggles are blinding you to what Jesus actually said.

And Paul agrees 100%:
“The Lord himself shall descend… the dead in Christ shall rise… we which are alive shall be caught up… and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
— 1 Thessalonians 4:16–17
Not a separate event.
No gap.
One return. One gathering. One glorious resurrection.

And just to drive the stake into Darby’s zombie theology:

“Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed…”
— 2 Thessalonians 2:3

That day = Christ’s return and our gathering (v1).
Paul explicitly says it won’t happen until the Antichrist is revealed — aka, during the tribulation.

So when you ask for a “post-trib rapture verse,” congratulations:
You’ve just been hit with three.

No early Christian ever taught a “secret rapture.”
That lie was born in the 1830s from John Nelson Darby and then printed into Scofield’s heretical footnotes, where gullible moderns swallowed it without question.

The rapture and the Second Coming are one event.
Not two.
Not separated by 7 years.
Not a disappearing act.
But the climactic return of Christ in power and glory — after the tribulation — just like He said.

1) “Your doctrine is from men!”
Ironically, that's exactly what Darby’s pre-trib rapture is — a man-made doctrine from the 1830s, never taught by Jesus, Paul, or the early Church. No one in Church history believed in a secret rapture before the tribulation until John Nelson Darby showed up and invented it out of thin air. That’s a fact — and no amount of “it’s been debunked!” nonsense changes that.

If it was so 'debunked,' you’d have one quote from a Church Father before 1830 clearly describing a secret, pre-trib rapture.
You don’t.
Because it doesn’t exist.

What does exist is:
John Nelson Darby (1830s): Developed the modern pre-tribulation rapture teaching.
Scofield Reference Bible (1909): Mass-marketed it via footnotes — not Scripture.
Left Behind (1995+): Pop-culture fantasy sealed the deal for modern, ignorant, misled evangelicals.

2) “The Antichrist is revealed then the rapture”? That’s not pre-trib — that’s mid-trib at best.
You just admitted the Antichrist is revealed before the rapture — which completely dismantles the pre-trib claim
Pre-trib means the rapture happens before the tribulation begins — before the Antichrist is even on the scene.
But 2 Thessalonians 2:3 says the Day of Christ (aka the return + rapture) will NOT happen until after the falling away and the man of sin is revealed.

That puts the rapture squarely inside the tribulation timeline — not before it.
You just accidentally proved my point — again.

3) “The angels gather the elect from heaven, not earth!”
No....

Matthew 24:31 —
“And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”

The “four winds” (same Greek used in Daniel) is an idiom for all directions on Earth.
It's not saying the elect are floating in heaven.
It’s saying they’re scattered across the earth — and they’re being gathered at Christ’s return.

Also, are you forgetting that the dead in Christ rise first, and then we who are alive are caught up?
That’s both heaven and earth involved in one gathering — one climactic moment.

Bottom line:
You’re confusing Hollywood fantasy with Scripture.
There’s no secret escape hatch.
No vanishing act before tribulation.
No two-phase return.

Jesus comes back once — visibly, gloriously, after the tribulation — to raise the dead and gather His people.

What Darby and Scofield did was hijack Christianity and smuggle in an entirely new storyline — one where Jesus takes a backseat, and modern political Israel becomes the main character.

These poor souls think they're reading the Bible, but what they're really reading is Scofield's fan fiction, footnoted right into the margins like it's canon. They’ve been trained to see:

Ethnic Israel as the hero

The Church as a placeholder

The Antichrist as someone else’s problem

The rapture as an escape hatch

And Jesus’ own words as irrelevant to “this dispensation”

It’s not Christianity anymore — it’s Scofieldian Star Wars, where up is down and evil is good:

Its like -- “Yes, I follow the Gospel of Star Wars… Emperor Palpatine is our blessed hope, Yoda leads the evil Beast system, Darth Vader runs a charity for orphaned clones, and the Millennium Kingdom is being administered from a Rothschild-funded beachfront in Tel Aviv. Luke and Leia? Apostates who rejected the Empire’s prophetic destiny.” -- it couldn't be more backwards if you tried.

Your verse says AFTER TGE TRIB ( THE ONLY PART YOU READ CORRECTLY) , ANGELS GATHER, (not Jesus), FROM HEAVEN, (not earth)
So your theory is totally based on misinformation.

Again your hope that the church fathers NEVER taught a pretrib rapture has been DEBUNKED FOR YEARS.
The postrib workbook no longer uses that lie.
Only you and maybe a few others didn't get the memo

But let's just say you are correct.
That means you are getting your doctrine from a setting of error so great that Irenaus wrote the book "AGAINST HERESY", In which tons of heresy from your church fathers was exposed.
That is the origin of your doctrine and you wave that banner of error proudly.
The Catholics got their doctrine the same way you did....and from the same men.
So the Catholics and yourself use the same erroneous platform.
Ahem...LISTENING TO MAN.
You are guaranteed error friend.
Your platform, that you admit is from man, is easily debunked.
A babe with a bible can read what you OMIT.
All postrib workbook pages omit the pretrib rapture Jesus taught.

You don't get red flags from what your doctrine reframes????? The very words of Jesus?????
You changed Matthew 24 for doctrine sake????
Huh????

Note you omitted the verses that you can not reconcile , and get some strange traction from a movie.

Get a bible please and reconcile the pretrib rapture verses.

Since Matthew 24 has zero postrib rapture verses, and Jesus declares 1/2 of the church is left behind in Matt 24 and Matt 25, start by showing me where "before" is not "before"

And show me where JESUS ,in matt 24,said 1/2 taken , is not the church.
Read it slow.
Before the flood, normal life and activities, commerce and everyday life...one taken, and one left behind.
Half taken. Only half.
Who is taken ????? Taken before the flood???

Then Jesus CONFIRMS his words and example.
Matt 25
Half taken and half left behind.

Your doctrine has no answer.

So you made only one point.
Your point was that you got your doctrine from acient dead men that you erroneously say had never written of a pretrib rapture .
Even when educated that it is a lie , you cling to it????
Huh????
The rest of your (points) are just a rant about some movie
Too funny.

(I do get your frustration though)

 

[rebuilder 454]

2 Thessalonians 2:1–3 (KJV)
“Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled… as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed…”

Paul refers to one unified event: the coming of Christ and our gathering to Him — not two phases.
He makes it crystal clear: “That day shall not come” until two things happen — the apostasy and the revealing of the Antichrist.

That alone should end the pre-trib, Dispensationalist delusion. But for the sake of clarity — let’s keep going.

Matthew 24:29–31 (KJV)
“Immediately after the tribulation of those days… they shall see the Son of man coming… and he shall send his angels… and they shall gather together his elect…”

Jesus places the gathering (rapture) after the tribulation — not before.
It’s visible, global, and marked by cosmic signs — not secret or symbolic.

1 Thessalonians 4:16–17 (KJV)
"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven… the dead in Christ shall rise first: then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them… and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”

This is the same event Paul referenced in 2 Thess. 2:1 — the gathering.
He never separates it from the Second Coming.

1 Thessalonians 5:2–4 (KJV)
“The day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night… but ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you…”

Same day. Not two returns. Not two tracks for Israel and the Church.
Believers are watching and enduring — not removed.

Revelation 20:4–5 (KJV)
“And I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus… and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. This is the first resurrection.”

These saints died during the tribulation — they refused the mark of the Beast.
Yet they are raised in what John calls the first resurrection.
If the Church was raptured years earlier, this would be a second resurrection — but Scripture says this is the first.

And who is this Beast/Antichrist?
“And power was given unto him to continue forty and two months… and it was given unto him to make war with the saints…”
— Revelation 13:5–7

He rules during the tribulation, makes war on the saints, and is later destroyed by the return of Christ:

“…whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming.”
— 2 Thessalonians 2:8

Conclusion from the text alone:

The “gathering” and “Day of Christ” are the same (2 Thess. 2:1–3)
It cannot happen until the Antichrist is revealed

Jesus places the gathering after the tribulation (Matt. 24:29–31)

The first resurrection includes tribulation martyrs (Rev. 20:4–5)

The Antichrist rules during the tribulation (Rev. 13:5)

Jesus destroys him at His visible return (2 Thess. 2:8)

There is no scriptural basis for a secret pre-trib rapture.
You cannot insert it without contradicting every major prophetic passage on Christ’s return — from Jesus to Paul to John.

And that’s exactly why no early Church Father ever taught it.
The early Church endured persecution, preached endurance, and awaited one visible return of Christ — after the tribulation, before the wrath.

The pre-trib rapture is a 19th-century invention, born from the twisted theology of John Nelson Darby and mass-marketed by Scofield’s heretical footnotes — not Scripture.

It didn’t rear its Satanic head until 1800 years after the Apostles — and it has been warping the Church and misleading people ever since.

You left out all pretrib rapture verses to come to your conclusion.

Your post outlines postrib talking points, and that you got your doctrine from ancients on a time of great error as did the Catholics.
Ahem...the Catholics burned heretics and their writings. ( pretribbers).

You research very little, and depend on men long dead for your doctrine.
Sorry but they were wrong about a lot of things because of their limited knowledge of scripture as are you.
Yet you actually celebrate it.

All postribs depend on Rev 14:14 as being omitted.
It is a rapture DURING the trib.
No postribber can unpack it.

Nor can any postribber unpack the pretrib rapture verses.
Ask a postribber to unpack the virgin parable.
THEY CAN NOT DO IT without changing the components of the parable.

Your doctrine is poorly thought out, and depends on a fallcy of supposed ancients , that your leaders are TOTALLY misinformed over.
....yet celebrate that mess as if they are actually on track.

Oh the irony.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Yes — and who is Jesus talking about in that passage? “Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted... ye shall be hated of all nations for my name’s sake.”
— Matthew 24:9 He’s talking to His disciples — not the Sanhedrin. Not the Knesset and not a future secular state.


This tribulation affects believers, saints, the elect (True Israel) — not just the land of False Israel™. Later in the same chapter: “But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.”
— Matthew 24:13 This is about faithful endurance, not national ethnic destiny. - The tribulation is about the final clash between the saints and the Beast, not "refining modern Israel".

Jesus returns to save His Bride, not to install a third temple to begin slaughtering animals or fulfill some Scofield, dream-board delusion.

Elevating ethnic Israel above Christ is not theology — it’s idolatry.

These Dispensationalist evangelicals are so thoroughly brainwashed, they don’t even realize they are Israel.

Not modern geography.
Not a secular government.
Not a group of Eastern European converts backed by U.N. paperwork and Rothschild money.

The Body of Christ is Israel.
The true sons of Abraham are those who are in Christ — not those with a passport from Tel Aviv.

Scripture says it plainly:

“And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.”
— Galatians 3:29

“He is not a Jew, which is one outwardly… but he is a Jew, which is one inwardly… in the spirit.”
— Romans 2:28–29

“They which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.”
— Galatians 3:7

So no — Israel is not a modern political state founded in 1948 by atheists and international bankers.
And it’s certainly not a collection of Eastern European identity thieves whose bloodline traces back to Khazar converts, not to Abraham.

The Church is the Israel of God — the remnant, the elect, the Bride.

If you’re in Christ… you are Israel.

If you reject Christ… you are cut off from the covenant — no matter what blood runs in your veins. Romans 9:6–8 (KJV), Romans 11:19–22 (KJV), Galatians 3:7 (KJV), Galatians 3:29 (KJV), Philippians 3:3 (KJV), Ephesians 2:12–13 (KJV), Galatians 6:15–16 (KJV)

You are replacement theology??
What on earth do you do with romans 11???
What do you do with the 144k being ethnic Jews???

SMH

 

[Doug]

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days… then shall appear the sign of the Son of Man… and he shall gather together his elect…”
— Matthew 24:29–31 (If we were already gone, there would be no elect left to gather.)

The elect is the believing remnant of Israel not the church the body of Christ.......the verse below pertain to Jews,,,,,they are gathered from all the nations they were scattered and will enter the kingdom on earth

[Mar 13:9, 14 KJV] 9 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them. ... 14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

[Mat 24:15-16, 20 KJV] 15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: ... 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

 

[The Gospel of Christ]

You left out all pretrib rapture verses to come to your conclusion.

Your post outlines postrib talking points, and that you got your doctrine from ancients on a time of great error as did the Catholics.
Ahem...the Catholics burned heretics and their writings. ( pretribbers).

You research very little, and depend on men long dead for your doctrine.
Sorry but they were wrong about a lot of things because of their limited knowledge of scripture as are you.
Yet you actually celebrate it.

All postribs depend on Rev 14:14 as being omitted.
It is a rapture DURING the trib.
No postribber can unpack it.

Nor can any postribber unpack the pretrib rapture verses.
Ask a postribber to unpack the virgin parable.
THEY CAN NOT DO IT without changing the components of the parable.

Your doctrine is poorly thought out, and depends on a fallcy of supposed ancients , that your leaders are TOTALLY misinformed over.
....yet celebrate that mess as if they are actually on track.

Oh the irony.

You've just released a whole lot of Scofield smoke and Darby dust for one thread — but let’s cut straight through it with a theological blowtorch.

You accuse me of “omitting” the so-called pre-trib rapture verses? I didn’t omit them — they don’t exist. Not one verse describes a secret coming of Christ before the tribulation. Not one. Every “proof” you try to offer is built on assumptions, parables twisted out of context, and blatant misreading.

Let’s take your claims and run them through a biblical woodchipper:

1. “Jesus taught a pre-trib rapture.”
Really? Where? Chapter and verse — go ahead. I’ll wait.

Jesus said:
“Immediately after the tribulation… he shall gather together his elect.”
— Matthew 24:29–31

That’s Jesus Himself giving you the timeline. And if you're saying "the elect" isn't the Church, then you’ve got to explain why Paul calls believers “God’s elect” (Romans 8:33, Colossians 3:12, Titus 1:1). You don’t get to redefine the elect every time it’s inconvenient to your system.

2. “Half taken, half left behind = pre-trib rapture!”
Read it again:
“As it was in the days of Noah…” (Matt. 24:37–41)
Who was taken in the flood?
The wicked were swept away.
Noah was left behind — alive, preserved.

So, being “taken” here is not about being raptured. It’s about being judged.

Jesus doubles down:
“So shall also the coming of the Son of man be.”
— Matthew 24:39

This is not a pre-trib verse — it’s a warning about sudden judgment.

3. “Revelation 14:14 is the rapture!”
You mean the harvest of the earth?
That’s Jesus returning in judgment — the sickle, the winepress, the wrath. That’s not a quiet whisking away. That’s the apocalypse.

And just two chapters later:
“These came out of great tribulation.”
— Revelation 7:14

So… when did they get raptured if they’re clearly in the tribulation?

4. “The virgins prove a pre-trib rapture!”
Parables are not timelines. They’re moral and spiritual lessons.

The point of the parable? Be ready.
Because when the Bridegroom returns — there’s no second chance.

That doesn’t prove a two-phase rapture. It proves urgency and faithfulness. Trying to build a rapture doctrine from a metaphor is like claiming the prodigal son disproves adoption.

5. “The early Church was heretical — don’t trust them!”
Oh, but trust Darby, who invented a totally new doctrine in 1830? Got it.

You can’t throw out 1800 years of unified Christian expectation — a visible return after tribulation — and replace it with a 19th-century hallucination funded by Zionist dispensationalists and footnoted into a Bible by a literal convicted criminal (Scofield).

You want one quote from the early Church Fathers proving they believed in the Second Coming after tribulation?

Irenaeus (180 AD):
“The Church shall flee into the wilderness, and tribulation will come, and then the Lord shall come from Heaven in glory…” — Against Heresies 5.29

Justin Martyr (150 AD):
“He shall come from the heavens with glory, when the man of apostasy, who speaks strange things… shall venture to do unlawful deeds on the earth against us Christians.”

That’s persecution before His return.

6. “You changed Matthew 24!”
No — I quoted it verbatim. You just don’t like what it says.

“AFTER the tribulation… THEN shall appear the sign… AND he shall gather…”
That’s a clear sequence.

You want “before”?
Find the verse.
You can’t. Because it’s not there.

Bottom Line:

You accuse me of following man — but I follow Jesus’ words, Paul’s letters, and the early Church.

Your “doctrine” is younger than the typewriter — and just as outdated.

You didn’t inherit it from the apostles. You inherited it from a long line of charlatans and TV prophecy peddlers:

Darby (1830s) – Invented the pre-trib rapture out of thin air

Scofield (1909) – Footnoted it into the Bible like it was canon

Hal Lindsey (1970s) – Sold it with The Late Great Planet Earth

Jack Van Impe – Quoted the entire Bible and somehow missed Matthew 24:29

John Hagee – Replaced the Gospel with Zionist nationalism

Tim LaHaye (1995) – Turned it into Left Behind fiction

That’s not apostolic teaching — that’s Scofieldian science fiction on par with the delusions of L. Ron Hubbard.

The pre-trib rapture is a modern hoax — a dangerous fantasy designed to lull the Church into passivity, waiting to be extracted instead of enduring and overcoming.

“He that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.”
— Matthew 24:13

 

[The Gospel of Christ]

You are replacement theology??
What on earth do you do with romans 11???
What do you do with the 144k being ethnic Jews???

SMH

“Replacement theology” is a Dispensationalist slur — designed to smear the original Christian belief that the Church is the continuation and fulfillment of God’s covenant people.
Not a replacement, but a completion.

The Church doesn’t replace Israel — it is Israel.
(And any Christian who doesn’t know that is lost in the theological woods.)

Not a geopolitical nation. Not a bloodline.
But the people of faith — Jew and Gentile alike — grafted together under the blood of the New Covenant.

This was never about genetics or geography.
It’s about Christ. Always was. Always will be.

You ask what I do with Romans 11?
I read it. Carefully.

“Not all Israel is of Israel.” — Romans 9:6
“Branches were broken off… and you were grafted in.” — Romans 11:19
“If they continue not in unbelief, they shall be grafted in again.” — Romans 11:23

Paul’s point?
Faith in Christ is the condition.
Unbelief cuts you off.
Jew or Gentile — no exceptions.

Romans 11 doesn’t predict a future for ethnic Israel apart from Christ.
It offers hope of restoration if they turn to Him — the same offer extended to all.

“He is not a Jew who is one outwardly… but inwardly.” — Romans 2:28
“If you belong to Christ, you are Abraham’s seed.” — Galatians 3:29

As for the 144,000 in Revelation?
Symbolic. Representative. Apocalyptic literature is full of signs and patterns.

They’re called “the servants of God” — not Levitical priests.
Not nationalists. Not politicians.

The very next verse shows “a great multitude no man could number, of all nations.” — Revelation 7:9

You think God’s elect are a literal 144,000 bloodline Jews, while ignoring the uncountable multinational remnant that follows?

That’s not theology.
That’s Scofieldian numerology with a Zionist twist.

No — this isn’t “replacement theology.”
It’s New Covenant theology — the actual position of Jesus, Paul, Peter, the early Church, and the entire New Testament.

“This is the covenant I will make… I will write my law on their hearts… and they shall be my people.” — Jeremiah 31:33
(fulfilled in Hebrews 8:8–13)

If you’re in Christ — you are Israel.
If you reject Christ — you are outside the covenant.
Doesn’t matter your ancestry, your passport, your DNA test, or your flag.

And what makes this even worse?

Over 95%+ of people in modern False Israel™ are white, Eastern European converts — Khazars, Russians, Poles, and secular Zionists — who are about as related to Abraham & David as Bruce Lee and Mao Zedong.

Their ancestors were force-converted to Judaism in 740 A.D. by King Bulan at the end of a sword — and they couldn’t have found biblical Israel on a map even if the entire map was labeled “Israel.”

This isn’t prophecy fulfilled.
It’s a Rothschild-backed identity scam, wrapped in Old Testament cosplay and sold as divine destiny to Scofield-brainwashed evangelicals who can’t tell the Gospel of Christ from a Left Behind box set.

At this point, even Kim Jong-un in a prayer shawl has a stronger claim to the covenant than some of these U.N.-backed, Tel Aviv paper Jews.

What do you call a white Russian, Ashkenazi, or Polish convert to Judaism claiming they’re genetically related to David and Jesus?
That’s right — a false Jew.

Not my label — Scripture’s.
“I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.” — Revelation 2:9

Lineage doesn’t save you. Jesus does.
And without Him, there is no covenant — only counterfeit.

But here’s the warped irony — they’re not even related to biblical Jews.
They’re white Eastern Europeans, descended from Khazar converts and Slavic tribes.
So this isn’t just spiritual fraud —
It’s genealogical fiction wrapped in a Zionist flag and rubber-stamped by the U.N.

The entire thing is beyond insane — a global delusion where Europeans with no bloodline connection to Abraham claim the land, the covenant, and the promise… while rejecting the very Messiah it was all pointing to.

That’s not restoration.
That’s a geopolitical impersonation —
And every Scofield-soaked evangelical who defends it is helping stage the longest-running identity theft in biblical history.

If you’re trying to inherit the promise without Christ — through bloodlines and border fences — you’re not reclaiming prophecy.
You’re committing spiritual fraud.

Any gospel that elevates ethnic identity above the cross is not just error — it’s blasphemy.
It’s another gospel. A cursed gospel.

“If any man preach any other gospel… let him be accursed.” — Galatians 1:9

This isn’t a theological side quest.
This is heresy in league with Satan — the very deception Christ Himself warned about.

If your gospel requires Jesus to take a backseat to a bloodline, a flag, or a Rothschild-funded nation-state, then you are not preaching Christ. You are preaching a Scofield-fueled delusion — crafted in hell, footnoted into the Bible, and sold to the masses.

The true Israel is not in Tel Aviv.
It’s found in Christ — Jew and Gentile, redeemed by the blood of the Lamb.

Preach anything else?
You’re not defending Scripture.
You’re preaching Satan’s gospel — and Jesus will crush it when He returns.

You’re not witnessing the return of God’s people.
You’re watching a Rothschild-funded costume party — and Scofield made you think it was the Book of Revelation.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Chapter 5 tells of the 24 elders, symbolic of the resurrected Church, saying, Revelation 5:8-10 (WEB):

(8) Now when he had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints

Jesus received the scroll almost 2,000 years ago. The elders present could not be tuw church- it hadn't even gotten started. No, these were OT saints (prophets, kings, etc.) like Abraham, Moses, Elijah, Daniel, Isaiah, Joseph, Eziekiel, David, Solomon, Hezekiah, Samuel, Josiah, Johoshaphat, Noah, Enoch, Adam, Isacc, Jacob, John the Baptist, etc.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Of course they did. Jesus told us about 1/2 the church is left behind.
Nobody believes they didn't come out of the trib.
It matches perfectly with "all refusing the mark are killed, every man woman and child."

So who passes through it???
You just made the case for the impossibility of anyone making it through.
Thanks!
( your theory is one of many)
Pretrib rapture is from Jesus words. You can keep your theory.

It's your perogative and perspective. Many of the present day theologians sm that I have learned from are Pre-Trib too!
But when you start witnessing catastrophic events as described in the 7 Seals and 6 Trumpets and the Church is still here, you'll quickly abandon your Pre-Trib. view.
>>> Honestly, I would rather the Pre- Trib view was right and we don 't experience any of it and get out of here - I just see the 7th Trumpet as the last as described in 1 Cor. 15:52

That said, I'll offer an alternative 7th Trumpet view that would actually put all the events written in the Seals and trumpets before anything actually is manifest on earth. As I said, Jesus already opened the scroll right after His ascension 30AD The actions within the scroll did not take place at the time of course because it is just a play book of orders and details, the end game plan. Once the setting is set with all the actors on stage, the trumpets begin to blow..Now we are shown them individually, what they represent, and John can only see these events one at a time; but that doesn't mean they aren't all happening simultaneously, overlapping as the deah toll accumulates.
Now here's the alternate possibility: They trumpets are blown simultaneously or rapidly in heaven within moments. If that were true, then a last trumpet escape could actually happen before the Great Tribulation began. ? Typically in war, trumpets were blown as a signal to warn, prepare, or charge, before anything happened. Just a speculative theory.

 

[Doug]

2. “Half taken, half left behind = pre-trib rapture!”
Read it again:
“As it was in the days of Noah…” (Matt. 24:37–41)
Who was taken in the flood?
The wicked were swept away.
Noah was left behind — alive, preserved.

So, being “taken” here is not about being raptured. It’s about being judged.

That's right..........those taken are the believing Jews who are taken to enter the earthly kingdom........those left will face judgment
[Mat 24:28 KJV] 28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
[Luk 17:37 KJV] 37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body [is], thither will the eagles be gathered together.
[Rev 19:17 KJV] 17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

 

[Doug]

That’s Jesus Himself giving you the timeline. And if you're saying "the elect" isn't the Church, then you’ve got to explain why Paul calls believers “God’s elect” (Romans 8:33, Colossians 3:12, Titus 1:1). You don’t get to redefine the elect every time it’s inconvenient to your system.

Paul did call the church the body elect but Israel is also elect..........you have to look at surrounding text for the best identification

 

[The Gospel of Christ]

The elect is the believing remnant of Israel not the church the body of Christ.......the verse below pertain to Jews,,,,,they are gathered from all the nations they were scattered and will enter the kingdom on earth

[Mar 13:9, 14 KJV] 9 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them. ... 14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

[Mat 24:15-16, 20 KJV] 15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: ... 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

You're parroting classic Scofield Dispensationalism — the idea that Matthew 24 is “only for the Jews,” that the “elect” can’t be the Church, and that Jesus was somehow not talking to His own disciples as representatives of the coming Church age.

One step at a time..

Jesus — speaking directly to His own disciples, warning them about deception, persecution, and global tribulation — tells them to endure to the end…

And your Scofield-poisoned theology thinks He was talking to some future ethnic Jews in the year 2097?

Jesus hadn’t even died yet.
There was no “Church” as you define it.
No Christians. No churches. No Gentile graft-ins.
Of course He references synagogues and the Sabbath —
He was speaking to Jews in Israel before Pentecost!

He was giving a war briefing to His disciples — the very men who would lay the foundation of the Church.

He says, “Take heed that no man deceive you…”
Not, “Take heed, random Israelis 2,000 years from now.”

But you’ve been so brainwashed by this “rightly dividing” nonsense, you actually believe Jesus wasn’t talking to you.

Now let’s talk about “the elect.”

Romans 8:33 — “Who shall lay anything to the charge of God’s elect?”
Colossians 3:12 — “Put on therefore, as the elect of God…”
Titus 1:1 — “According to the faith of God’s elect…”

It’s the Church. The saints. The Body of Christ.
If “elect” only means Christians in Paul’s letters but “national Israel” in prophecy, then congratulations, you’ve mastered theological gymnastics.

And if you still think “Matthew 24 isn’t for the Church” — let me make this painfully simple.

In Matthew 24, JESUS says:

He returns
There’s a loud trumpet
The dead are raised
The elect are gathered

In 1 Thessalonians 4, PAUL says:

The Lord descends from heaven
There’s the trumpet of God
The dead in Christ rise
Then we who are alive are caught up together with them

Same order. Same event. Same gathering.

And yet you’ve convinced yourself these are two totally different events — happening years apart — with two totally different groups of people?

No. That’s not theology.
That’s mental gymnastics invented to defend a system, not the Scriptures.

Let’s be crystal clear for the lurkers:

Jesus wasn’t talking about Jews in a future tribulation timeline.
He was talking to His own disciples — the men who would become the first pastors, apostles, evangelists, and martyrs of the Church.

There was no “Church” yet because HE HADN’T DIED YET.
Of course He referenced synagogues and the Sabbath — they were still under the Old Covenant at that moment.

So if your logic is, “Well He mentioned Judea and the Sabbath, so it doesn’t apply to me,”
then you’re basically saying Jesus couldn’t speak to the future Church… because the Church didn’t exist yet.

You think Matthew 24 doesn’t apply to the Church because He mentioned synagogues and Sabbath days — as if Jesus was supposed to refer to megachurches and Sunday brunch before He’d even died.

Let me help you:

Neither did Paul’s letters.
But you sure think those apply to you, don’t you?

So either you believe Jesus is Lord and His words matter —
or you believe in a rapture fantasy that needs you to ignore Him to protect it.

He said AFTER the tribulation… He gathers His elect.
Not before. Not secretly. Not in phases.

If you’re in Christ — that’s YOU.
If it’s not — you’re not in the elect.

So pick a side.
Jesus… or Scofield.

---

 

[The Gospel of Christ]

That's right..........those taken are the believing Jews who are taken to enter the earthly kingdom........those left will face judgment
[Mat 24:28 KJV] 28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
[Luk 17:37 KJV] 37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body [is], thither will the eagles be gathered together.
[Rev 19:17 KJV] 17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

So now you’re saying the ones who are “taken” are the righteous? The believing Jews?

Really?

Let’s read it again — slowly:
“As it was in the days of Noah, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.”
— Matthew 24:37

Jesus doesn’t leave it vague — He defines the comparison:

“And [they] knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.”
— Matthew 24:39

Who was “taken away” in Noah’s day?
The wicked.
The ones who mocked. The ones who didn’t believe. The ones who were swept away in judgment.

Noah was left behind — alive, preserved, delivered.

Jesus explicitly says:
“Just like that — so it will be when I return.”

So how on earth are you flipping that to mean the righteous are “taken”?

You're literally calling being taken in judgment a reward.
You’ve reversed the plain words of Christ to fit your Scofield fantasy.

And then you quoted Matthew 24:28 —
“Wherever the carcass is, there will the eagles be gathered together.”

That verse is about judgment — not blessing.

Same with Luke 17:37 — the disciples ask “Where are they taken, Lord?”
And Jesus says: Where the corpses are, the vultures will be.

That’s not the kingdom of God —
That’s a corpse pile.

You’re not describing saved believers being gathered to the kingdom —
You’re describing the wicked being swept away to judgment — just like in Noah’s day.

And then you bring in Revelation 19:17 —
Where birds feast on the flesh of kings and wicked armies that tried to fight Christ at His return.

So let’s get this straight:

You’re now claiming being devoured by vultures in judgment is the rapture for believing Jews?

You’re not interpreting the Bible.
You’re butchering it to serve your system.

Bottom line:
In Matthew 24, Jesus makes it painfully clear:
The ones “taken” are the wicked — just like in the flood.
The righteous remain — preserved by God.

You’ve got it totally backwards.

Which is exactly what happens when you read the Bible through Scofield’s footnotes instead of Christ’s words.

And that’s not accidental —
That’s exactly what Scofield and his Oxford- and Rockefeller-backed handlers wanted:

A Church so confused it can’t tell the difference between the Gospel of the Kingdom and a Zionist propaganda script.

A Church that silences Jesus…
To follow Scofield instead.

Mission accomplished.

 

[Doug]

Jesus — speaking directly to His own disciples, warning them about deception, persecution, and global tribulation — tells them to endure to the end…

And your Scofield-poisoned theology thinks He was talking to some future ethnic Jews in the year 2097?

Actually Jesus was saying the kingdom was at hand .....the tribulation in which they had to endure til the end was therefore at hand as well..........the tribulation precedes the kingdom to separate believing Israel from unbelievers

 

[keithr]

Jesus received the scroll almost 2,000 years ago. The elders present could not be tuw church- it hadn't even gotten started. No, these were OT saints (prophets, kings, etc.) like Abraham, Moses, Elijah, Daniel, Isaiah, Joseph, Eziekiel, David, Solomon, Hezekiah, Samuel, Josiah, Johoshaphat, Noah, Enoch, Adam, Isacc, Jacob, John the Baptist, etc.

When the resurrected Jesus gave the revelation to John, to show things that were going to happen in the future, the Church had been going for around 60 years.

If they were Old Testament saints, how could they say the underlined words in this verse? :

Revelation 5:9-10

(9) They sang a new song, saying, “You are worthy to take the book, and to open its seals: for you were killed, and bought us for God with your blood, out of every tribe, language, people, and nation,​

(10) and made us kings and priests to our God, and we will reign on the earth.”​

 

[Doug]

In Matthew 24, JESUS says:

He returns
There’s a loud trumpet
The dead are raised
The elect are gathered

what verse are you saying says the dead are raised

 

[Doug]

The Lord descends from heaven
There’s the trumpet of God
The dead in Christ rise
Then we who are alive are caught up together with them

Same order. Same event. Same gathering.

And yet you’ve convinced yourself these are two totally different events — happening years apart — with two totally different groups of people?

But our gathering together is a mystery hidden so how could it be in prophecy in Matthew?