David in NJ
Well-Known Member
That is how you see it but not the Truth of what transpired.
PLEASE read the entire Gospel and the Apostles letters and pray.
Study the scriptures in prayer, patience and perseverance.
THE CHURCH IS NOT THE BRIDE OF CHRIST
- Thread starter Doug
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PLEASE read the entire Gospel and the Apostles letters and pray.
Study the scriptures in prayer, patience and perseverance.
GracePeace
Well-Known Member
It is not the topic of this thread, so it shouldn't occupy more of the discussion. I will now repost what I see as some of the fatal flaws in @Doug's view, and ask you to move on.
GracePeace
Well-Known Member
@Doug Some of the fatal flaws in your view :
1. You say that believing Israel was unsecure in their salvation, but we are secure, because John 15 says they could be cut off, yet, in "Paul's Gospel to the Gentiles", which you say differs from "Peter's Gospel to Israel", he also warns that those who do not persist in faith can be cut off (Ro 11:17-22).
2. Paul called Peter to repent of his hypocrisy and walk in accordance with THE (singular) truth of THE (singular) Gospel (Gal 2)--this couldn't have worked if they had preached two different Gospels, and were being held to two different standards, but, again, there was only ONE truth of ONE Gospel they were both being held to.
3. You have to argue that the Gentiles referred to in Romans 10:12,13 are the Gentiles who believed in Peter's Gospel, but we have a better option--the Gentiles in Ro 13, whom Paul identifies as the "another people" God chooses to drive to jealous the people who made Him jealous by choosing another god, and it makes as much sense to define the people He chooses in their (Israel's) stead to make them (Israel) jealous as it does to say the god they chose in His stead was actually Him and that made Him jealous. No, these are people who are not the same people that made Him jealous, just as He was not the same god they chose.
4. Jesus says He builds His Church upon Peter, the rock, yet you claim Peter is part of "the remnant of Israel", which is Christ's bride, but how can he be BOTH part of Christ's bride, by being part of "the remnant of Israel" AND not part of Christ's bride, by being part of "the Church" (since you say the Church is not the bride)?
1. You say that believing Israel was unsecure in their salvation, but we are secure, because John 15 says they could be cut off, yet, in "Paul's Gospel to the Gentiles", which you say differs from "Peter's Gospel to Israel", he also warns that those who do not persist in faith can be cut off (Ro 11:17-22).
2. Paul called Peter to repent of his hypocrisy and walk in accordance with THE (singular) truth of THE (singular) Gospel (Gal 2)--this couldn't have worked if they had preached two different Gospels, and were being held to two different standards, but, again, there was only ONE truth of ONE Gospel they were both being held to.
3. You have to argue that the Gentiles referred to in Romans 10:12,13 are the Gentiles who believed in Peter's Gospel, but we have a better option--the Gentiles in Ro 13, whom Paul identifies as the "another people" God chooses to drive to jealous the people who made Him jealous by choosing another god, and it makes as much sense to define the people He chooses in their (Israel's) stead to make them (Israel) jealous as it does to say the god they chose in His stead was actually Him and that made Him jealous. No, these are people who are not the same people that made Him jealous, just as He was not the same god they chose.
4. Jesus says He builds His Church upon Peter, the rock, yet you claim Peter is part of "the remnant of Israel", which is Christ's bride, but how can he be BOTH part of Christ's bride, by being part of "the remnant of Israel" AND not part of Christ's bride, by being part of "the Church" (since you say the Church is not the bride)?
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
The Rock upon which the Church is built is in direct relationship to the OP
Move on from mis-understanding
GracePeace
Well-Known Member
Accept that people disagree with your view, and move on. I will not be responding to any more of your off-topic messages on this thread.
This idea of apostles having ranks among them, one being greater than the other is catholic fables friend.
Jesus condemned this carnal thinking among the apostles. They made this mistake wondering who would be greatest in the kingdom. Jesus taught them that christians are to be humble servants. Remeber Jesus was selfless. Always putting everyone else's needs above His own. By serving others and being submissive to the Father is how one becones "great" in the kingdom.
Moral purity, resisting sinful temptations, pure like little children is who will be "greatest" in Gods kingdom.
Matthew 18:1-2,
- At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, who then is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven
- Jesus invited a child to stand among them,
Truly I tell you, He said unless you change and become like little children you will never enter the kingdom of heaven therefore whoever humbles himself like this little child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven and whoever welcomes a little child like this in My name welcomes Me
Also read,
Luke 22:24-28
The Greek has two different words for rock used in Matthew 16:18.
Jesus refers to Peter as rock the Greek word petros. It means piece of a rock. Its idea is small stone. It is masculine. Peter being a man is referred to with a word who's gender is masculine.
Jesus then says and upon this rock. The Greek word here is different petra.
It means a large cliff, massive rockface. The idea is its immovable.
This word is feminine gender. So it cannot be used for Peter himself.
Petros
Petra
Post 577 is sound teaching. Jesus is the chief cornerstone that all the house(church) is built upon. The church literally is a spiritual house. Its builder is God. No sinful man can be the foundation of Gods church.
1Corinthians 3:11-19,
- for no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid which is Jesus Christ
Yes, Jesus does tell Peter that He gives Peter the keys of the kingdom.
The simple reason is Jesus is speaking to Peter here.
Matthew 16 Jesus gives the keys to Peter.
Catholics make this argument to claim Peter is the first pope because he has been given the authority over all other apostles.
But catholics are poor Bible students.
Continue reading to Matthew chapter 18:18. Here Jesus is speaking to all the apostles and He speaks of the keys of the kingdom again.
- Verily I say unto you, whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven
and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven
Exact same keys Jesus gave to Peter to bind and loose He gave to the rest of His apostles.
So the catholic doctrine that only Peter was given the keys to the church/kingdom is more lies told by the Roman papist.
GracePeace
Well-Known Member
Protestants tend to be REALLY "touchy" about the passage, but their issue has nothing to do with any ambiguity in the text (clearly, "upon this rock" refers to Peter), but is nothing more or less than a simple unwarranted allergic reaction to Catholicism; that said, again, as I said to the other user, I'm not going to drag the off-topic discussion out, and I won't continue responding to disagreements on the issue (unless the author of the thread changes his mind on the issue and decides to argue it). You can refer to my responses on the topic to understand why I will not be seeing it your way.
Thanks.
I dont give personal opinions when I teach on spiritual matters. 1Peter 4:11
Scripture is of no private interpretation,
1Peter 1:20,
- knowing this first that no prophecy of the Scripture is of any private interpretation
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Take your own medicine = "Accept that people disagree with your view, and move on."
Move on and stop responding.
GracePeace
Well-Known Member
Congratulations on being the only living infallible human being! LOL!
Anyway! Moving on!
Has nothing to do with infallible.
If I am unlearned on a subject I simply will tell you or I'll keep my mouth shut.
I would hope everyone only teaches if they have full conviction that what they're teaching is the oracles of God, 1Peter 4:11,
- if anyman speak let him speak as the oracles of God...
Colossians 3:17,
- in whatever you do in word or deed do all in the name of the Lord
2Timothy 2:15,
- study to show thyself approved unto God a workman that needeth not to be ashamed rightly dividing the word of truth
James 3:1,
- brethren let not many of you become teachers knowing that we will receive greater judgment
Since Gods word can be wrongly divided and rightly divided that means we can understand Gods revelation.
Ephesians 3:4,
- by which when you read you may know my knowledge in the mystery of Christ
God even commands us to know His word,
Ephesians 5:17,
- wherefore be not unwise but understand what the will of the Lord is
GracePeace
Well-Known Member
Great, now I hope we can all focus on the topic of the thread--Doug's insane claims that the Church is not the bride of Christ.
Amen. What or who was Peter without Jesus? And what is the church without Jesus? It is Jesus working in and through his servants and His church. Just my thoughts, but myself I wonder if the rock in that verse, expressed as both petros and petra in the Greek, was a play on words. Peter was part of the foundation made of stone, while Jesus was certainly the chief cornerstone and is referred to as a rock in many places in scripture. I don't see how He could not have been alluding to Himself as being the rock that the church would be built upon, at least partly.
Eph 2:20
And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone
Peter seems to have been chief among the apostles to the Jews, while Paul was chief apostle sent to the Gentiles, but we don't want to make too much out of it like Catholicism does:
Gal 2:7-8
But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;
(For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles:)
As the Lord was gracious to open my eyes to these verses I realize how important it is that we remain in the simplicity of Christ about things and not get all religious about it all, otherwise it signals or leads to a spiritual death sentence:
2Co 11:3-4
But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ.
For if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted, you bear this beautifully.
The apostles were living stones. As all the saints are. By obeying Jesus' command to preach the gospel to the whole world.Thus saving souls growing the church.
They themselves were not to be built upon.
Jesus established His church through the preaching of the apostles
1Peter 2:5,
- you also as living stones are being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood to offer spiritual sacrifices to God through Jesus Christ
Jesus is the builder,
Matthew 16:18-18,
- thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build My church
Jesus taught against this idea.
There were no greater or lesser apostles.
1Corinthians 15:9,
- for I am the least of the apostles who am not worthy to be called an apostle because I persecuted the church of God, Paul's words
In Luke 22:24-26 Jesus taught no apostle would be recognized as the Head
Peter is NOT apart of the foundation of the church,
1Corinthians 3:11,
- for no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ
Peter himself said there is only one chief Shepard,
1Peter 5:4,
- and when the chief Shepard appears you will receive the unfading crown of glory
The Holy Spirit through Peter made it known who the chief Shepard is.
John new this truth also,
John 10:16,
- and they shall become one flock with one Shepard
Peter never gave himself an inflated title. He was content to be another apostle,
- an apostle of Jesus Christ
When the apostles heard that Samaria had received the word of God they sent them Peter and John.
Acts 8::14,
Jesus tells us,
- neither is one who is sent greater than the one who sent him, John 13:16,
For this reason Peter who was sent could not be greater than the others who sent him.
I hear you about the nit picking and see it could be taken that way. However, I`m not a hype Pauline observer. I appreciate ALL that the Head, Jesus has told us through His Holy Spirit concerning - the nations, Israel and the Body of Christ.
`OUT of heaven means OUT. It does not say the city came down WITH heaven.
Actually, Jesus was speaking about the `rock` of confession that He was Lord.
What scriptures show you that Peter and the other 11 apostles knew about the Body of Christ?
I agree that the city is the community of people.
Now in one place you say we are the Bride, then in another the Body. Either we are IN Christ or out of Him. Which?
And where do you read we are joined to Israel?
When God`s word says the city comes down OUT of heaven, that does NOT mean WITH heaven.
GracePeace
Well-Known Member
Irrespectively, do you deny Peter was part of Christ's "Church", which just means "congregation"? Even Doug conceded that much.
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