TWO GOSPELS

[David in NJ]

Gentiles partake of the blessings as co-heirs with Christ, but Gentiles do not partake of the promises of the Kingdom since that is only valid to Israel and those Gentiles who became/become Jews for their salvation before and after we who are saved by grace through faith. Replacement Theology has many Gentiles going about making all manner of false claims.

BTW

HalleluYAH = "Gentiles partake of the blessings as co-heirs with Christ"

serpent speak = "but Gentiles do not partake of the promises of the Kingdom"

Follow the WAY the TRUTH and the LIFE = Matt 21:33-44

Hear another parable: There was a certain Landowner who planted a vineyard and set a hedge around it, dug a winepress in it and built a tower. And he leased it to vinedressers and went into a far country. 34Now when vintage-time drew near, he sent his servants to the vinedressers, that they might receive its fruit. 35And the vinedressers took his servants, beat one, killed one, and stoned another. 36Again he sent other servants, more than the first, and they did likewise to them. 37Then last of all he sent his son to them, saying, ‘They will respect my son.’ 38But when the vinedressers saw the son, they said among themselves, ‘This is the heir. Come, let us kill him and seize his inheritance.’ 39So they took him and cast him out of the vineyard and killed him.

40“Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vinedressers?”

41They said to Him, “He will destroy those wicked men miserably, and lease his vineyard to other vinedressers who will render to him the fruits in their seasons.”

42Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures:

‘The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone.
This was the Lord’s doing,
And it is marvelous in our eyes’?

43“Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it.
44And whoever falls on this stone will be broken; but on whomever it falls, it will grind him to powder.”

 

[David in NJ]

Yes all you said is totally correct

@KUWN @BeforeThereWas

Does @Doug and @KUWN and @BeforeThereWas believe TRULY this with your heart, mind and soul???

"And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules. You shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers, and you shall be my people, and I will be your God."
Ezekiel 36:26‭-‬28 ESV

 

[BeforeThereWas]

@KUWN @BeforeThereWas

Does @Doug and @KUWN and @BeforeThereWas believe TRULY this with your heart, mind and soul???

"And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules. You shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers, and you shall be my people, and I will be your God."
Ezekiel 36:26‭-‬28 ESV

Jesus called only Gentiles "dogs," not we of Israel. He called us the "children." I'm sure you know this. The Lord did not address Gentiles as dogs on the mere basis of sin on all our part, but because of that middle wall of partition that was the basis for the requirement for Gentiles to join with us of Israel for salvation and partaking of the blessings and promises of Abraham.

Now, as has been stated, under the Gospel of Grace, Gentiles are no longer without hope. The Kingdom Gospel was the upholding of Israel as the portal through which Gentiles could be saved, but because of our continued rejection of Messiah, that middle wall of partition has come down, of which had the princes of this world known would happen, they would not have crucified the Lord of Glory. But salvation is come unto the Gentiles.

Amen

BTW

 

[David in NJ]

Jesus called only Gentiles "dogs," not we of Israel. He called us the "children." I'm sure you know this. The Lord did not address Gentiles as dogs on the mere basis of sin on all our part, but because of that middle wall of partition that was the basis for the requirement for Gentiles to join with us of Israel for salvation and partaking of the blessings and promises of Abraham.

Now, as has been stated, under the Gospel of Grace, Gentiles are no longer without hope. The Kingdom Gospel was the upholding of Israel as the portal through which Gentiles could be saved, but because of our continued rejection of Messiah, that middle wall of partition has come down, of which had the princes of this world known would happen, they would not have crucified the Lord of Glory. But salvation is come unto the Gentiles.

Amen

BTW

the LORD called idol worshippers "dogs" = "a woman of Canaan"
the LORD also blesses anyone who has faith in HIM = Gospel

Then Jesus went out from there and departed to the region of Tyre and Sidon. And behold, a woman of Canaan came from that region and cried out to Him, saying, “Have mercy on me, O Lord, Son of David! My daughter is severely demon-possessed.”

But He answered her not a word.
And His disciples came and urged Him, saying, “Send her away, for she cries out after us.”
But He answered and said, “I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”
Then she came and worshiped Him, saying, “Lord, help me!”
But He answered and said, “It is not good to take the children’s bread and throw it to the little dogs.”
And she said, “Yes, Lord, yet even the little dogs eat the crumbs which fall from their masters’ table.”
Then Jesus answered and said to her, “O woman, great is your faith! Let it be to you as you desire.” And her daughter was healed from that very hour.

Faithlessness, unbelief and speaking evil of the Gospel turns a Jew into a "dog" = JESUS Says so = Revelation 22:15

And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work.
I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”

Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.

 

[BeforeThereWas]

the LORD called idol worshippers "dogs" = "a woman of Canaan"
the LORD also blesses anyone who has faith in HIM = Gospel

Then Jesus went out from there and departed to the region of Tyre and Sidon. And behold, a woman of Canaan came from that region and cried out to Him, saying, “Have mercy on me, O Lord, Son of David! My daughter is severely demon-possessed.”

But He answered her not a word.
And His disciples came and urged Him, saying, “Send her away, for she cries out after us.”
But He answered and said, “I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”
Then she came and worshiped Him, saying, “Lord, help me!”
But He answered and said, “It is not good to take the children’s bread and throw it to the little dogs.”
And she said, “Yes, Lord, yet even the little dogs eat the crumbs which fall from their masters’ table.”
Then Jesus answered and said to her, “O woman, great is your faith! Let it be to you as you desire.” And her daughter was healed from that very hour.

Faithlessness, unbelief and speaking evil of the Gospel turns a Jew into a "dog" = JESUS Says so = Revelation 22:15

And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work.
I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”

Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.

When I see people perpetuating eisegetical injections into the scriptures, that's when red alarm bells start going off in my head. The texts say nothing about her religion, so why put that into an appearance of a quote?

BTW

 

[David in NJ]

When I see people perpetuating eisegetical injections into the scriptures, that's when red alarm bells start going off in my head. The texts say nothing about her religion, so why put that into an appearance of a quote?

BTW

#1 - take a good look at you own "eisegesis" , allow the Word to make corrections in your heart/mind and then you will SEE more clearly.

"Noah’s grandson was Canaan, the son of Ham, from whom the Canaanite peoples originated (Genesis 9:18). The Canaanite race was cursed probably because of the sin of Ham against his father, Noah (Genesis 9:25–26). The Bible does not specify the sin of Ham (in which Canaan may have been involved), but the act was disgraceful enough for God to pronounce judgment on Canaan’s descendants, the Canaanites.

Canaanite is also a term used to designate the Northwest Semitic languages of the people living in the land of Canaan.

When the Israelites led by Moses arrived at Canaan, they found the inhabitants of the land to be mighty people, giants even, with many large, fortified cities (Numbers 13:28). The Canaanites worshiped numerous foreign deities, and their religion and culture were known to be extremely immoral and wicked (Genesis 10:19; Exodus 13:5; Leviticus 18:27; Judges 1)."

Compare the Canaanite woman to the Gentile Roman Soldier = Matthew 8:5-13

Now when Jesus had entered Capernaum, a centurion came to Him, pleading with Him, 6saying, “Lord, my servant is lying at home paralyzed, dreadfully tormented.”

7And Jesus said to him, “I will come and heal him.”

8The centurion answered and said, “Lord, I am not worthy that You should come under my roof. But only speak a word, and my servant will be healed. 9For I also am a man under authority, having soldiers under me. And I say to this one, ‘Go,’ and he goes; and to another, ‘Come,’ and he comes; and to my servant, ‘Do this,’ and he does it.”

10When Jesus heard it, He marveled, and said to those who followed, “Assuredly, I say to you, I have not found such great faith, not even in Israel! 11And I say to you that many will come from east and west, and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. 12But the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” 13Then Jesus said to the centurion, “Go your way; and as you have believed, so let it be done for you.” And his servant was healed that same
hour.

BTW =draw close to God's Righteousness Today and REJOICE in the One NEW Man = Jew & Gentile in CHRIST

 

[BeforeThereWas]

#1 - take a good look at you own "eisegesis" , allow the Word to make corrections in your heart/mind and then you will SEE more clearly.

"Noah’s grandson was Canaan, the son of Ham, from whom the Canaanite peoples originated (Genesis 9:18). The Canaanite race was cursed probably because of the sin of Ham against his father, Noah (Genesis 9:25–26). The Bible does not specify the sin of Ham (in which Canaan may have been involved), but the act was disgraceful enough for God to pronounce judgment on Canaan’s descendants, the Canaanites.

Canaanite is also a term used to designate the Northwest Semitic languages of the people living in the land of Canaan.

When the Israelites led by Moses arrived at Canaan, they found the inhabitants of the land to be mighty people, giants even, with many large, fortified cities (Numbers 13:28). The Canaanites worshiped numerous foreign deities, and their religion and culture were known to be extremely immoral and wicked (Genesis 10:19; Exodus 13:5; Leviticus 18:27; Judges 1)."

Compare the Canaanite woman to the Gentile Roman Soldier = Matthew 8:5-13

Now when Jesus had entered Capernaum, a centurion came to Him, pleading with Him, 6saying, “Lord, my servant is lying at home paralyzed, dreadfully tormented.”

7And Jesus said to him, “I will come and heal him.”

8The centurion answered and said, “Lord, I am not worthy that You should come under my roof. But only speak a word, and my servant will be healed. 9For I also am a man under authority, having soldiers under me. And I say to this one, ‘Go,’ and he goes; and to another, ‘Come,’ and he comes; and to my servant, ‘Do this,’ and he does it.”

10When Jesus heard it, He marveled, and said to those who followed, “Assuredly, I say to you, I have not found such great faith, not even in Israel! 11And I say to you that many will come from east and west, and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. 12But the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” 13Then Jesus said to the centurion, “Go your way; and as you have believed, so let it be done for you.” And his servant was healed that same
hour.

BTW =draw close to God's Righteousness Today and REJOICE in the One NEW Man = Jew & Gentile in CHRIST

Sorry, but this broad brush stroke labeling of anyone is wrong at the most basic levels. Not only am I Israeli, but I also have a mixture of Cherokee. Your standard for assessing people from pagan nation background is questionable at best, and can be used to relegate people like me as pagan along with all others. Rather than to assume into others anything simply on the basis of their national and ethnic origins, how about at least rendering to all others a measure for the benefit of doubt? She may have been, or not have been, an idol worshipper. We don't know for sure. I'm just trying to incorporate greater integrity in the handling of scripture because that woman also recognized that she too could be blessed form the crumbs falling from the children's table. I never said she was not an idol worshipper, only that there is reason to doubt such assumptions.

BTW

 

[David in NJ]

Sorry, but this broad brush stroke labeling of anyone is wrong at the most basic levels. Not only am I Israeli, but I also have a mixture of Cherokee. Your standard for assessing people from pagan nation background is questionable at best, and can be used to relegate people like me as pagan along with all others. Rather than to assume into others anything simply on the basis of their national and ethnic origins, how about at least rendering to all others a measure for the benefit of doubt? She may have been, or not have been, an idol worshipper. We don't know for sure. I'm just trying to incorporate greater integrity in the handling of scripture because that woman also recognized that she too could be blessed form the crumbs falling from the children's table. I never said she was not an idol worshipper, only that there is reason to doubt such assumptions.

BTW

Now you try and backtrack(hypocrisy)= "Sorry, but this broad brush stroke labeling of anyone is wrong at the most basic levels."

It was you who used the "broad brush" calling Gentiles "dogs"

JESUS knows who and what the Canaanite woman was involved with = HE knew her COMPLETE history

HE called her a "little dog" because of HIS COMPLETE knowing of her, as well as EVERY individual that HE speaks to.

Thus why HE never called the Gentile Roman Centurion a "dog"

But HE did call those Jews who reject Him "dogs" when HE compared the Faith of the Gentile Centurion to the faithlessness of many Jews

“Assuredly, I say to you, I have not found such great faith, not even in Israel! And I say to you that many will come from east and west, and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.
But the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
Then Jesus said to the centurion, “Go your way; and as you have believed, so let it be done for you.” = And his servant was healed that same hour.

 

[KUWN]

Jesus called only Gentiles "dogs," not we of Israel. He called us the "children." I'm sure you know this. The Lord did not address Gentiles as dogs on the mere basis of sin on all our part, but because of that middle wall of partition that was the basis for the requirement for Gentiles to join with us of Israel for salvation and partaking of the blessings and promises of Abraham.

Now, as has been stated, under the Gospel of Grace, Gentiles are no longer without hope. The Kingdom Gospel was the upholding of Israel as the portal through which Gentiles could be saved, but because of our continued rejection of Messiah, that middle wall of partition has come down, of which had the princes of this world known would happen, they would not have crucified the Lord of Glory. But salvation is come unto the Gentiles.

Amen

BTW

Salvation has always been by faith in what God has revealed to us. According to Rom 1, all people are aware that God exists, that God's existence is certain. (In other words, there are no genuine atheists., just those who suppress the truth.)

19 what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.

20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

Regarding this statement: But salvation is come unto the Gentiles.

Salvation has been available for all people throughout all time. Gentiles were saved in the OT, the NT isn't saying that Gentiles were all going to hell in the OT. They just were not members of the Nation of Israel, the chosen people.

 

[BeforeThereWas]

Now you try and backtrack(hypocrisy)= "Sorry, but this broad brush stroke labeling of anyone is wrong at the most basic levels."

It was you who used the "broad brush" calling Gentiles "dogs"

JESUS knows who and what the Canaanite woman was involved with = HE knew her COMPLETE history

HE called her a "little dog" because of HIS COMPLETE knowing of her, as well as EVERY individual that HE speaks to.

Thus why HE never called the Gentile Roman Centurion a "dog"

But HE did call those Jews who reject Him "dogs" when HE compared the Faith of the Gentile Centurion to the faithlessness of many Jews

“Assuredly, I say to you, I have not found such great faith, not even in Israel! And I say to you that many will come from east and west, and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.
But the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
Then Jesus said to the centurion, “Go your way; and as you have believed, so let it be done for you.” = And his servant was healed that same hour.

You really should read what Jesus and Paul both said about Gentiles. Then perhaps you will recognize your error...or not. The ad hominem nature of your posts to me speak loud volumes to us all when you sit there attacking anothers character rather than discussing only the topic itself. Very sad indeed.

BTW

 

[BeforeThereWas]

Salvation has always been by faith in what God has revealed to us. According to Rom 1, all people are aware that God exists, that God's existence is certain. (In other words, there are no genuine atheists., just those who suppress the truth.)

19 what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.

20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

Regarding this statement: But salvation is come unto the Gentiles.

Salvation has been available for all people throughout all time. Gentiles were saved in the OT, the NT isn't saying that Gentiles were all going to hell in the OT. They just were not members of the Nation of Israel, the chosen people.

Interesting. So in all that from Romans 1, which verse says they could be SAVED without believing the gospel?

Given that there is no other name under Heaven whereby a man is saved, how did they know His name from mere nature in order to call upon Him in faith?

Given that faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God, how was their faith rightly placed apart from the priesthood of Israel?

Even the demons believed in God's existence, as is attested to within nature as Romans 1 points out. That saves nobody, so how does one get to your interpretation of Romans 1 without running aground upon the sands of eisegesis?

I've been mulling over this for some time now and want to see your rationale. What I read in Romans 1, going over each verse, word for word, and I don't see salvation rising up from the evidence for God's existence. What I have gleaned from that chapter is that all men are without excuse for any attempt to claim that they had no evidence for His existence, which all men have to their charge.

Paul wasn't standing in some deep, dark jungle in South America where there was no Jewish priesthood or minister of the Gospel of Grace. He was right smack in the middle of Roman influence and dominance where his gospel was spreading like wildfire, and among others who were under Judaism or the Kingdom Gospel in the local synagogues.

So, if you would, please share your thoughts.

Thanks

BTW

 

[David in NJ]

You really should read what Jesus and Paul both said about Gentiles. Then perhaps you will recognize your error...or not. The ad hominem nature of your posts to me speak loud volumes to us all when you sit there attacking anothers character rather than discussing only the topic itself. Very sad indeed.

BTW

no ad hominem in my posts

You stated: "Gentiles are dogs"

You were given CLEAR words of Christ about this.

here is just one of your ad hominem: "Your standard for assessing people from pagan nation background is questionable at best"

here is another ad hominem from you: "When I see people perpetuating eisegetical injections into the scriptures,"

@BeforeThereWas applied ad hominem against the Gospel: "because of our continued rejection of Messiah, that middle wall of partition has come down"

God always included the Gentiles in His Gospel = beginning with the very first Prophecy of the Gospel in Genesis

The Jewish nation rejected Christ more then 700 years before HE walked this earth.

And He said, “Woe to you also, lawyers! For you load men with burdens hard to bear, and you yourselves do not touch the burdens with one of your fingers. 47Woe to you! For you build the tombs of the prophets, and your fathers killed them. 48In fact, you bear witness that you approve the deeds of your fathers; for they indeed killed them, and you build their tombs. 49Therefore the wisdom of God also said, ‘I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they will kill and persecute,’ 50that the blood of all the prophets which was shed from the foundation of the world may be required of this generation, 51from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah who perished between the altar and the temple. Yes, I say to you, it shall be required of this generation.

The Jewish nation rejected Christ more then 1,500 years ago = Genesis 37:18-20

And when they/tribes of Israel saw Joseph afar off, even before he came near unto them, they conspired against him to kill him.
And they said one to another, Behold, this dreamer cometh.
Come now therefore, and let us kill him, and cast him into some pit, and we will say, Some evil beast hath devoured him: and we shall see what will become of his dreams.

 

[KUWN]

Interesting. So in all that from Romans 1, which verse says they could be SAVED without believing the gospel?

Given that there is no other name under Heaven whereby a man is saved, how did they know His name from mere nature in order to call upon Him in faith?

Given that faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God, how was their faith rightly placed apart from the priesthood of Israel?

Even the demons believed in God's existence, as is attested to within nature as Romans 1 points out. That saves nobody, so how does one get to your interpretation of Romans 1 without running aground upon the sands of eisegesis?

I've been mulling over this for some time now and want to see your rationale. What I read in Romans 1, going over each verse, word for word, and I don't see salvation rising up from the evidence for God's existence. What I have gleamed from that chapter is that all men are without excuse for any attempt to claim that they had no evidence for His existence, which all men have to their charge.

Paul wasn't standing in some deep, dark jungle in South America where there was no Jewish priesthood or minister of the Gospel of Grace. He was right smack in the middle of Roman influence and dominance where his gospel was spreading like wildfire, and among others who were under Judaism or the Kingdom Gospel in the local synagoges.

So, if you would, please share your thoughrs.

Thanks

BTW

Go back over the whole chapter of Rom 1. See where Paul tells us that these unbelievers knew God, for God made it plain to them. Not at all understanding your priesthood of Israel. Just read the chapter again. You will see why Paul says they are without excuse.

Many OT unbelievers came to faith before Moses. The same can be said for many Gentiles who were a continent away from the priesthood of Israel. Throughout the OT there are many people (non-Jews) who were getting saved. All the people before Christ knew God existed, that they were accountable to Him, that God had a divine nature, and they were without excuse. Without excuse for what? The intuitive knowledge that God provided as to His nature was clearly enough for them to be saved, all without ever knowing the name of Jesus.

I would recommend you get a hold of the book Who Can Be Saved? By Terrance Tiessen. If you are a typical Christian then you probably won't read it. You know two verses that say what you want to hear without examining this issue from many different directions. You may not even be open to theological books, reading perhaps an article or two. I can tell from your post to me that you are not well read on this subject. Where did you get your belief from on this issue? A preacher? A teacher, or you just read the Bible and now you know the answers.

Read 1 Tim 2:4 and ask yourself if God has been successful in carrying out his desire for all the be saved. Certainly if God wants them to be saved, he would work to that end. I suspect there will be a lot more people in heaven than you imagine. Just like in the Tribulation where the number of believers who are killed is innumerable. Billions and Billions if you ask me. This of course runs contrary to what you have been taught. Remember, God created man to seek after God. Those who seek Him is every person in the world. The issue I think you are implying is what some Reformed person holds.

 

[BeforeThereWas]

Go back over the whole chapter of Rom 1. See where Paul tells us that these unbelievers knew God, for God made it plain to them. Not at all understanding your priesthood of Israel. Just read the chapter again. You will see why Paul says they are without excuse.

Many OT unbelievers came to faith before Moses. The same can be said for many Gentiles who were a continent away from the priesthood of Israel. Throughout the OT there are many people (non-Jews) who were getting saved. All the people before Christ knew God existed, that they were accountable to Him, that God had a divine nature, and they were without excuse. Without excuse for what? The intuitive knowledge that God provided as to His nature was clearly enough for them to be saved, all without ever knowing the name of Jesus.

I would recommend you get a hold of the book Who Can Be Saved? By Terrance Tiessen. If you are a typical Christian then you probably won't read it. You know two verses that say what you want to hear without examining this issue from many different directions. You may not even be open to theological books, reading perhaps an article or two. I can tell from your post to me that you are not well read on this subject. Where did you get your belief from on this issue? A preacher? A teacher, or you just read the Bible and now you know the answers.

Read 1 Tim 2:4 and ask yourself if God has been successful in carrying out his desire for all the be saved. Certainly if God wants them to be saved, he would work to that end. I suspect there will be a lot more people in heaven than you imagine. Just like in the Tribulation where the number of believers who are killed is innumerable. Billions and Billions if you ask me. This of course runs contrary to what you have been taught. Remember, God created man to seek after God. Those who seek Him is every person in the world. The issue I think you are implying is what some Reformed person holds.

I agree with your first paragraph, where Gentiles knew of God's existence from what is evident within nature, but that doesn't mean they had faith without hearing and were saved by a name they did not know to call upon. I'm still waiting to be shown where they had faith. Knowing of God's existence e is not faith.

Romans 1:19-21 — Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

We also have this concerning Gentiles:

Ephesians 2:12 — That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

The audience was Gentiles, not Israelis. Please read that passage carefully and explain how Gentiles, AS Gentiles, could be saved before the elimination of that middle wall of partition that made that verse a reality at that time. They were saved by becoming Jews by joining with Israel before the cross and then later, after the elimination of that wall between Israel and Gentiles, it was grace through faith. Israel was the kingdom of priests to the Gentile world before our fall. Esther 8:17 shows a prime example of Gentiles becoming Jews.

Romans 10:14-17 — How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

One either believes the inspired word of God, or one does not. I'm still interested in your adamant claim that all Gentiles could be saved before the cross without joining with Israel until after the coming down of the middle wall of partition, for without faith in a Law and Law Giver they knew not, or a gospel they never heard, proving that faith comes by HEARING how could they be saved?. Do you see the problem here? That is what I'm interested in understanding how one gets around the clear language of what scripture says without allegorizing it into something it's not saying, as some out there are in the practice of instigating into discussions.

Thank you for your time.

BTW

 

[KUWN]

I agree with your first paragraph, where Gentiles knew of God's existence from what is evident within nature, but that doesn't mean they had faith without hearing and were saved by a name they did not know to call upon. I'm still waiting to be shown where they had faith. Knowing of God's existence e is not faith.

Is this what you are looking for?


Heb. 11 3 By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.

4 By faith Abel brought God a better offering than Cain did. By faith he was commended as righteous, when God spoke well of his offerings. And by faith Abel still speaks, even though he is dead.

5 By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death: “He could not be found, because God had taken him away.” For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God.

6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must have faith that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

7 By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family. By his faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that is in keeping with faith.

Romans 1:19-21 — Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them (we know God intuitively); for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

We also have this concerning Gentiles:

Ephesians 2:12 — That at that time ye were without Christ (Messiah better captures the sense), being aliens from the commonwealth (the nation of Israel), and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God (they had no elect relationship with God) in the world:

The audience was Gentiles, not Israelis. Please read that passage carefully and explain how Gentiles, AS Gentiles, could be saved before the elimination of that middle wall of partition that made that verse a reality at that time. They were saved by becoming Jews by joining with Israel before the cross and then later, after the elimination of that wall between Israel and Gentiles, it was grace through faith. Israel was the kingdom of priests to the Gentile world before our fall. Esther 8:17 shows a prime example of Gentiles becoming Jews.

Let me state emphatically that the middle wall of partition has nothing to do with eternal life. Gentiles and Jews were now together part of the elect people of God.

Romans 10:14-17 — How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

we are not told that all of those listed above (the Hall of Faith) heard God's message. In fact, some of them God declared righteous based on their works.

One either believes the inspired word of God, or one does not. I'm still interested in your adamant claim that all Gentiles could be saved before the cross without joining with Israel until after the coming down of the middle wall of partition, for without faith in a Law and Law Giver they knew not, or a gospel they never heard, proving that faith comes by HEARING how could they be saved?. Do you see the problem here? That is what I'm interested in understanding how one gets around the clear language of what scripture says without allegorizing it into something it's not saying, as some out there are in the practice of instigating into discussions.

Thank you for your time.

BTW

The Inspired Word of God was only applicable to the original manuscripts. As they started copying them, errors started showing up. There are verifiable errors in our Bible. But, I am only nit picking. We do have the original WORDS of scripture. we just dont have the original pieces of paper they were written on. So, I might agree with the proposition that we have the inspired word.

 

[BeforeThereWas]

Is this what you are looking for?


Heb. 11 3 By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.

4 By faith Abel brought God a better offering than Cain did. By faith he was commended as righteous, when God spoke well of his offerings. And by faith Abel still speaks, even though he is dead.

5 By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death: “He could not be found, because God had taken him away.” For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God.

6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must have faith that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

7 By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family. By his faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that is in keeping with faith.




Let me state emphatically that the middle wall of partition has nothing to do with eternal life. Gentiles and Jews were now together part of the elect people of God.


we are not told that all of those listed above (the Hall of Faith) heard God's message. In fact, some of them God declared righteous based on their works.


The Inspired Word of God was only applicable to the original manuscripts. As they started copying them, errors started showing up. There are verifiable errors in our Bible. But, I am only nit picking. We do have the original WORDS of scripture. we just dont have the original pieces of paper they were written on. So, I might agree with the proposition that we have the inspired word.

You misunderstood. I didn't not say that wall is still in place now. I said it was taken down.

So, getting this back on track, please address what I stated. I would very much appreciate that.

Thanks

BTW

 

[KUWN]

You misunderstood. I didn't not say that wall is still in place now. I said it was taken down.

So, getting this back on track, please address what I stated. I would very much appreciate that.

Thanks

BTW

Sorry about misrepresenting your position. But I have to add, I am not sure what you are proposing in that paragraph.

 

[BeforeThereWas]

Sorry about misrepresenting your position. But I have to add, I am not sure what you are proposing in that paragraph.

Ok. Perhaps I can make some clarifications.

Ephesians 2:14 — For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

As you likely know, thats Paul speaking to Gentiles who are ofnthe body of Chist. That was only after that middle wall of partition came down. After that wall was removed, this happened:

Romans 11:11 — I say then, Have they [Israel] stumbled that they [Israel] should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them [Israel] to jealousy.

Given that salvation had COME UNTO the Gentiles, logically, shows to us that it was not unto them before. In other words, that middle wall kept Gentiles separated from Israel AND salvation:

Ephesians 2:12 — That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

Gentiles had no hope for salvation after that wall was put into place, contrary to the beliefs of some ad hominem name-callers I currently have on ignore and who insist upon what their false teaching pastors have taught them about an alleged singular gospel throughout. I encourage reading these verses in context so that they will speak to you themselves rather than taking my word for it. Systematic Theology is the hermeneutics I employ, allowing what ALL of scripture has to say on a topic rather than a theology built upon one or two verses.

There's much, much more to this, but this is a beginning.

BTW

 

[BeforeThereWas]

Galatians 1:11-12 — But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Some believe there is only one and the same gospel going back through John the Baptist, regardless of the differences that exist in Peter's Gospel ofnthenKingdom in Acts 2 and Pauls Gospel of Grace in 1 Cor. 15:1-4.

What's so easily overlooked is verses like the one above. Paul was persecuting the early church, comprised of converted Jews following Jesus, before Pauls conversion on the road to Damascus; he persecuted them on the basis of the Kingdom Gospel preached by the twelve to the circumcized, the very gospel that he learned about from men.

As stated in the verse above, what Paul later preached, after his conversion, was only what Jesus had revealed to him, not what men taught from the Kingdom Gospel to Israel. This proves, along with other proof texts, that Pauls gospel was not the same gospel as preached by the twelve. They both rest upon the same foundation of faith in Christ Jesus and what He accomplished on the cross, but beyond that, the similarities cease.

This, then, renders null and void the singular gospel craze that's more rooted in replacement theology than an honest, exegetical reading of scripture formwhat itnclearly says.

BTW

 

[keithr]

I recommend reading A Different Gospel? The summary of which is:

In summary, the Two Gospel idea was originally conceived to attack the credibility of the Bible and maintain a wall of separation between the Jews and the Gentiles, even though the Lord died to tear it down. It was brought to us by the same folks who were responsible for the Documentary Hypothesis, that challenges the authenticity of the 5 Books of Moses, the deutero-Isaiah theory that challenges the authorship of Isaiah, the late-dating of the Book of Daniel that attempts to negate the power of its prophecies, and a number of other heresies all designed to downgrade the Bible in our minds from the infallible Word of God to a flawed effort by man.​

​

Those who have resurrected this opinion from its well deserved death may have different motives, but that doesn’t change the fact that it’s inconsistent with the clear intent of Scripture. There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. (Galatians 3:28).​

Also The Gospel of the Kingdom Vs The Gospel of Grace, Conclusion - Grace thru faith.