False Christs, False Prophets and False Teachers. These are the days we live in.

[mailmandan]

You always say this.
We usually are referring to Believers.

Why discuss non-believers??
They're lost anyway.

Because it's not hard to find make believers/non-believers mixed together with genuine believers throughout scripture, throughout various churches today and on various Christian forum sites.

 

[GodsGrace]

Because it's not hard to find make believers/non-believers mixed together with genuine believers throughout scripture, throughout various churches today and on various Christian forum sites.

I've always felt that you use this excuse to justify your belief system.
You know...just state that the Christian in question to which the NT is referring is not a "true" believer, and it frees you of any further explanation.

As if we now have to say TRUE believer because BELIEVER has lost all meaning?
(maybe - I know the word CHRISTIAN has lost all meaning)

But, let's not get into that.

The fact of the matter is that a nominal Christian is not saved and should not even be brought into the discussion.
The kind you and I usually have.

 

[PinSeeker]

Even though I must disagree with reformed theology,,,,

Fair enough. But the better term to used is covenant theology. <smile> All the term 'reformed theology' means is that... well, not that it was anything new, but that it was the theology that the reformers, the leaders during the period we refer to as the Reformation ~ which officially began in late October of 1517, when Martin Luther nailed his ninety-five theses to the door of Castle Church in Wittenburg, Germany ~ held to.

As I have said, it was and is the same view of Scripture held to by Augustine more than a thousand years before the Reformation began.

At any rate, it was and is covenantal, rather than dispensational. To put it simply, regardless of where any of us stand on this or that, as Christians, we serve a covenantal God ~ Who progressively reveals Himself to and deals with man through covenants (not dispensations) and finally in the embodiment of all the lesser covenants in the one true everlasting Covenant, Jesus Christ, Who is unchanging, the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow.

They do believe in the core doctrines of Christianity and thus can be defined as Christian.

LOL! Well thanks... <chuckles>

Grace and peace to you, God'sGrace.

 

[mailmandan]

I've always felt that you use this excuse to justify your belief system.
You know...just state that the Christian in question to which the NT is referring is not a "true" believer, and it frees you of any further explanation.

As if we now have to say TRUE believer because BELIEVER has lost all meaning?
(maybe - I know the word CHRISTIAN has lost all meaning)

But, let's not get into that.

The fact of the matter is that a nominal Christian is not saved and should not even be brought into the discussion.
The kind you and I usually have.

It wasn't meant to be an excuse. Do you agree or disagree that it's not hard to find make believers/non-believers mixed together with genuine believers throughout scripture, throughout various churches today and on various Christian forum sites?

 

[GodsGrace]

Well then bad on him, if he did... <smile> If he did he got that wrong, along with some other things...


<chuckles>


Of course. Who in their right mind would teach that man does not have free will? Neither Augustine nor Calvin, nor any of the reformers taught such.

Sorry,,,was gone a few days.

It's really difficult to discuss with someone who does not believe that Augustine taught the absense of free will.
Why?
Because now I'd have to stop and paste something that proves that Augustine taught that man has no free will.
THIS IS COMMON KNOWLEDGE and should not require that I prove it.

So, I'm not going to.

However, for those reading along that MAY be intereested...
Yes ,,,Augustine taught that man has no free will and there are reasons why he taught this.

Here are some.
1. Not trained in scriptural grammar.

2. Stoic Determinational providence derived from Chrysippus and Cicero. (Augustine had spent 10 years as a gnostic manechaen before becoming Catholic).

3. He learned interpretation of Christian and Jewish scriptures in the Manechaen deterministic sense.

4. Preoccupation with sexual sin [which always bothered his conscience.]

5. He considered his own stoic, unilateral determinism correct and every other author before him (300 year's worth)
to be wrong.

source:

Page 95
THE FOUNDATION OF AUGUSTINIAN CALVINISM
Dr. Ken Wilson (a reknoned expert of Augustine...if not THE expert)

However... <smile> ...ohhhhh, please be careful with what I'm about to say, God'sGrace... <smile> Please. <smile>

In the sense of what Jesus says in John 8 and John 10, we never have free will. Again, in a certain sense. Never. He says to a group of Jews, "You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires" (John 8:44), and to another group of Jews, "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me..." (John 10:27-29). Now, if we are born again of the Spirit, then our will is to do the Father's will. So, ithat sense, in those two senses, actually, our will is never free... or, more accurately, depending on whose ~ or Whose ~ we are, we freely will accordingly. <smile>

We will do the Father's will ONLY if we want to.
God give us the desire to follow Him with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

He will not force us to follow Him.

Ephesians 4:30
30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

We are free to grieve the Holy Spirit even after salvation.

If YOU are correct that God gives to us HIS will...
then
yes sir,,,God will be CAUSING our sinning

and you've stated that you do NOT believe God causes us to sin (evil).

This is a conflicting belief system.

Of course He doesn't. Of course.


Well, if by this you mean to say that because of the work of God's Spirit in our hearts, then yes. But really more in response to what God has done for us and in us. The best way to say it, again, is with what John says in 1 John 4:19, as I said above... "We love because God first loved us." And our love is not just a... "warm fuzzy feeling," I'm sure you agree. Our love takes the form of good works. This is what It means to love God with all our heart, soul, mind, and strength. And to love our neighbors as ourselves. In that way, this love and good works are synonymous. And it is a responsibility, to be sure; good works are what God has called us to do.

There's too much here to go back and forth to what I had stated.
I'm just going to respond to your statements.

I agree with the above.

If you think along those lines, then fine. I don't like the use of the word 'cooperation,' because it implies that at least to some extent, we are responsible for our own salvation, for saving ourselves, and even that we are deserving of praise and worship, again, at least to some extent, for doing so. If you are not implying that in any way, then fine. <smile>

Why do we deserve praise and worship for serving/obeying God?
THIS is exactly what God demands from us....our obedience.

We absolutely cooperate in our salvation.
You believe we do not because you do not believe in libertarian free will.

In YOUR belief system,,,when we sin it is God's fault/responsibility due to the very fact that you do NOT believe i synergism.

1 Peter 5:8
8Be sober-minded; be watchful. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.

Why be watchful if God is doing all the work and requires no cooperation from us?

We are told to work out our salvation.

Revelation 3:20
20 Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me.

Jesus stands at the door and knocks.
We must OPEN the door.
This is cooperation.
One knocks
One opens


God has give to mankind the opportunity for salvation...
man must take advantage of this opportunity.

Uhhh... what? I wasn't saying anybody does; it was saying we have done nothing to deserve it, God'sGrace, and I'm sure you agree with that; Paul says that very thing, basically, in Romans 11:6, regarding being a member of God's elect: "if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace." And in Ephesians 2:8, regarding being born again of the Spirit and salvation itself: "by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast." You agree, I think...

Can't imagine what I could have said to warrant this reply.

but, like I said, not going back -- not enough time.

I do agree with what you've posted.

It's just not what YOU believe
or
You'd have to explain that you're reformed but do not follow the reformed religion.

Just as some Christians do not follow the Christian religion.

Preaching to the choir... Or to another preacher... I think 'cooperation' is a... questionable... word choice. <smile>

No. cooperation is a good word choice for someone that believes in free will.

Responding. Acting in obedience, God'sGrace is a response. Obeying is an action of our own, a positive response to a directive or commandment ~ His directive/commandment. It is not "cooperation" ~ God does not to some extent obey Himself like, 50%, and then we obey the other 50%, right? I mean, right; of course not.

??
If I give you a command to get me a pen...
and you get me a pen...
you are cooperating with me.

Okay, fair enough, and Augustine did nothing to refute that.

Wish I knew what it was.

It's a picture of our salvation, of our being born again of the Spirit of the living God.


Of course not. Goodness gracious.

Ditto. No idea what I've said.
Not going back to find out.
Sorry.

We can, but if we have been born again of the Holy Spirit, we will not intentionally do so. Again, Jesus says, "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one" (John 10).


Then you misunderstand Calvinism. What you think is Calvinism is what has come to be called hyper-Calvinism, which is a contortion, a caricature, really ~ which is largely unintentional ~ of what John Calvin actually taught.

No sir.
No such animal.
Calvinism and hyper Calvinism is exactly the same.
Except "lower Calvinist" cannot bear the thought that God created evil.
They can't be honest...so they've created a two-tier system.

Do we need to go through TULIP??
Which letter do you NOT agree with??

And this is true.


Ah, well, the other way around, really, the reformed faith is in accordance with the Gospel.

Continued (1 of 2)...

Pinseeker,,,
I've said this to you other times:
Reformed/Calviinist theology HAS NO GOSPEL.

What need is there of a gospel?
God does it all.

No synergism, remember?

 

[GodsGrace]

Fair enough. But the better term to used is covenant theology. <smile> All the term 'reformed theology' means is that... well, not that it was anything new, but that it was the theology that the reformers, the leaders during the period we refer to as the Reformation ~ which officially began in late October of 1517, when Martin Luther nailed his ninety-five theses to the door of Castle Church in Wittenburg, Germany ~ held to.

Don't really even know what you mean by Covenant theology.

I'll tell you this:
Reformed don't even call the Covenants by the same title.

They call the New Covenant the Cov of Grace.

NO OTHER denomination does this.

So, I'll be usiing reformed/calvinist as the working title...
which is what everybody uses.
I'm nice, I put "reformed" in the title, most don't.

As I have said, it was and is the same view of Scripture held to by Augustine more than a thousand years before the Reformation began.

Oh.
OK.
So why did you disagree in your other post and I had to spend time debunking your assertion?

The reformed do not believe in free will.
Augustine did not believe in free will. Even rejected by the CC !

God chooses who will be saved - and NOT by foreknowledge.
The reformed believe the same.

At any rate, it was and is covenantal, rather than dispensational. To put it simply, regardless of where any of us stand on this or that, as Christians, we serve a covenantal God ~ Who progressively reveals Himself to and deals with man through covenants (not dispensations) and finally in the embodiment of all the lesser covenants in the one true everlasting Covenant, Jesus Christ, Who is unchanging, the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow.

NO Covenant was lesser because GOD arranged all of them,
both the unilateral and the bilateral.

However, I understand what you mean and I agree.
The NC is the perfect and last covenant.

Also agree that dispensationalism is not biblical.

LOL! Well thanks... <chuckles>

Grace and peace to you, God'sGrace.

Same to you Pinseeker.
I dislike the system...nothing personal here.

 

[GodsGrace]

It wasn't meant to be an excuse. Do you agree or disagree that it's not hard to find make believers/non-believers mixed together with genuine believers throughout scripture, throughout various churches today and on various Christian forum sites?

Yes sir.
I sure do.

My point is that THEY should not come into the conversation.

If we ever discuss OSAS AGAIN...
I'll point it out.
Although I'm sure I have on occasion.

 

[GodsGrace]

From above (2 of 2)...


Yes, but only because... he/she has been born again of the Spirit. Paul again:

• "...we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the flesh and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ⁠ ~ by grace you have been saved⁠ ~ and raised us up with Him and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages He might show the immeasurable riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast." (Ephesians 2:3-9)

And Jesus, of course, in response to the disciples asking Him, "Who then can be saved?"... "looking at them":

• "With man it is impossible, but not with God. For all things are possible with God." (Matthew 19:26, Mark 10:27); “What is impossible with man is possible with God” (Luke 18:27).

Goodness.
Faith before belief.

So where is the free will if God has to save us before we can be saved?
Plenty of scripture Pinseeker - but not right now.

Just Ephesians 2:8 is sufficient
SAVED BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH
Our FAITH saves us

Don't know what Luke 18:27 has to do with this.

( sometimes Jesus asks us to give up a lot --- only with God's help can this be done, not by our own strength)

But not because they accept Him, God's Grace. That solely depends on His giving that salvific, electing mercy and compassion, which Paul explicitly says in Romans 9, quoting Moses from Exodus 33, where Moses quotes God Himself: "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” "So.." Paul says in Romans 9, "...then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy," the 'it' referring to God's purpose of election, and our being or not being one of His elect. His salvific mercy does not depend on man's acceptance.

No sir.
I'm not getting into Romans 9...if you wish to start a thread, I'm willing but Romans 9 cannot be discussed off the cuff as some do on these threads.

Romans 9: Gave give mercy to whom He will.
He gave mercy to the Israelites.
It's a specific case.

And to all who BELIEVE in His son.
HE decides the method
NOT the person.

And, of course, you are admitting that God chooses who will be saved.
And who will be damned.

That is rather EVIL, don't you think?

A perfectly holy God,,,no darkness in HIm...only light...

sending poor souls to hell with no chance/opportunity of saving themselves!

Rather evil indeed.

So SOVEREIGN means that God could be evil?

So then please accept that God creates evil.

Not initially. Else grace is not grace... again referring to what Paul explicitly says in Romans 11:6.


Well they do, if... if... one understands correctly... and "the reformed" do... the conditions are after one is born again, and then Who ~ because of His work in us ~ because of our sanctification, as you said, which is a work of the Holy Spirit through the remainder of our lives ~ really gets the credit for us having done these good works.

I'm good with this
IF
If you want to give the Holy Spirit ALL the credit for when we obey...

then we will also have to give the Holy Spirit all the responsibility when we sin.

Right, but is not relevant only to those in New Testament times (after the coming of Jesus), but before also. <smile>


In Romans 9 it is. And Exodus 33. Again, God says, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” "So.." Paul says in Romans 9, "...then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, Who has mercy," the 'it' referring to God's purpose of election and, individually, our being or not being one of His elect.

Ooops.
Can't spend time on verses...I AM TRULY SORRY.

If you want, please post it separately because that is MOST MISUNDERSTOOD verse that does not mean what you believe it to mean.

Hm. You still think that despite the 'us' there. Predestined us. This is WHAT HE DID FOR US, not HOW HE DID IT. The 'how' is Jesus's work on the cross; this is how He accomplished our redemption. And the method, regarding us now, having been born again of the Spirit, is by our sanctification, which you talked about above, which is the work of the Spirit over the course of the remainder of our lives; we are being made holy, set apart for and to the living God.

I'll repeat that the US, and I'm not even looking back to the orig post....
CANNOT mean that God is choosing PERSONS.
Why?
Because it does not reconcile with the rest of scripture.
Predestination is in the bible...no doubt about it.

It's always referring to
METHOD
PURPOSE

NEVER to an individual...well, actually in some very rare cases it does.

LOL! Yes, I agree, but the point is it's His will, not ours... Now, to do His will is our will, but because it is His will, and because we have this new spirit in us given to us by God... again, we love because He first loved us.

OK
But then when we DO NOT DO His will.

we'll be forced to blame God for when we do NOT do His will.

Yes...


I agree for sure with the 'no conflict' part... <smile> But "working with man's free will".... ugh. Again, our will is to do the Father's will because He has made us His, made us of Him, according to His will. He has not manipulated our will, but has given us a new spirit, even His own Spirit, so that then our will ~ our free will ~ is to do His will, and not that of our former father the devil. We are no longer "children of wrath," but with Jesus, the Son, sons of the living God.

This is compatibalist free will Pinseeker.
You know I'm not going to agree to it no matter how you word it.

If you wish to discuss free will,,,I'm willing...
but you're going to have to pick ONE TOPIC at a time.

I know it's difficult because each letter of the acronym leads to the next and it's difficult to keep on topic,,,
but we could give it a go.

1 of 2

 

[GodsGrace]

2 of 2

You know, I'm not even sure if you're arguing or debating here or not... <smile> But they were not. God did not breath His Word into them by His Spirit as He did the writers of Scripture. A lot of great things have been written, but none inspired in the sense of the Holy Spirit actually superintending the writing of Scripture.

Are you speaking of the ECFs?
I hope not.
Augustine was one...although much too late for me.

Nope. There was disagreement essentially from the beginning; Augustine and Pelagius were the two most well known... um, adversaries, if you will...

Well known?
Wonder what I said.

Do you know about Ignatius?
He was taught by John and Peter.

Do you know about Clement of Rome?
He was mentioned in a leetter and was taught by Paul.

No disagreements in the beginning.
Pelagius and Augustine were over 300 years later.

Already addressed; see above...


Ah, well, first, what does Peter say in Acts 2:38? You remember, surely: "Peter said to them, 'Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.”

And second, wfater baptism, God'sGrace, has in the New Testament replaced circumcision in the Old Testament as the sign and seal of the Covenant (which you should be able to see in Colossians 2:11-12 ~ "

Don't need Colossiand 2 Pinseeker.
I taught 7 Covenants and I know what the sign of the New Covenant is.
So,,,agreed.

Again...can't go back to see what I stated, but I agree with what you've stated.

See, we agree on a lot !

In Him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised with Him through faith in the powerful working of God, Who raised Him from the dead"), and is to follow the same general pattern of circumcision, which God commanded Abraham and the Israelites of old to perform on all male children at eight days of age.

Agreed.

I did not know that. Great!

OOOH.
You learned something !!
Wonder what it is !!
LOL

It absolutely does not. For the... well I've lost count; how many times now? Again, I get that you think that, but... <smile>

Probably about free will.
Maybe we could discuss only free will?
But why?
Will YOU change your mind?
No.
Will I change my mind?
No.

But someone might be reading along.
Maybe I could save him from the grips of Calvin !
LOL

Indeed. To God be the glory.


Um... Okay, whatever... <smile>

Grace and peace!

To our Sovereign God be ALL the glory.
Grace and peace to you too.

 

[NayborBear]

There’s a lot of that out there, but fortunately we have the Holy Spirit to keep us from such things… and Jesus, by the Spirit, just as He said He would be, “to the end of the age” (Matthew 28:20). And hey, notice he didn’t say, “to the end of the coming age,” or “to the end of the age yet to come.” <smile>

Some people "get it!" And when they do? These are the ones' that tend to walk away from what christianity/(churchianity) has become. As they become cognizant to: "Say!! There's a lot more to God's Word than that which is coming from christianity/(churchianity) today!"
And this has a tendency to be pretty hard on these ones' that "get it!" And? Because the "famine of the end times" (which started quite awhile ago), to one's that don't get it? It's like trying to resuscitate a dying person.
Throws 'em into shock! Which makes it that much so harder!

Then, there are those trying to "spread the word" so to speak, in telling those that "get it" that they are not alone!
Because? I'll tell ya because.
God will "draw" them into His consuming fire, like a moth to a flame.
They just need to be reassured that they aren't and haven't been the only ones' this has happened to!

And, if I may expand upon your comment concerning "the age to come?"
There was also at least an "age" before this present one!
Jeremiah 4:
23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.
25 I beheld, and, lo, there was NO MAN*, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.
26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the Lord, and by his fierce anger.
27 For thus hath the Lord said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.

2 Peter 3:
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

* This obviously couldn't have been "Noah's flood!"

 

[bdavidc]

There are genuine Christians and there are "nominal" or pseudo-Christians. There are genuine believers and there are make believers and it's not hard to find them mixed together throughout scripture, throughout various churches today and on various Christian forum sites.

You are correct. There is a mixture that is illustrated in scripture. Jesus told us, “Let both grow together until the harvest.” (Matthew 13: 30) Some who appear to be wheat, are not wheat. “They went out from us, but they were not of us.” (1 John 2:19)

However we also need to know when to make a distinction between the weak and the false. Some believers need patience and teaching, for they are weak in faith. (Romans 14: 1) Others continue to pervert sound doctrine and must be put away after repentance is refused. (Titus 3:10)

This is not a battle of tone. This is a battle of truth. “If they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.” (Isaiah 8: 20) When men come along and change the gospel itself, Paul commands us to “let him be accursed.” (Galatians 1:8)

Let us do our job. Stand on the Word. Correct error with Scripture. Be patient with the weak. And draw the line at any altering of the gospel. The Lord knows them that are His. (2 Timothy 2:19)

 

[PinSeeker]

It's really difficult to discuss with someone who does not believe that Augustine taught the absence of free will.

He didn't. The perception of that is understandable, but he did not.

Because now I'd have to stop and paste something that proves that Augustine taught that man has no free will.

I would actually really, really like that. And would challenge you to do so.

...Augustine...

Regardless of where you got them, you have some very wrongheaded understandings of who Augustine was and what he believed and taught. Starting with this one... "Not trained in scriptural grammar." That's laughably untrue; his chief linguistic mentors were Plato, who was Greek to the core, and Cicero, an Italian who translated the Greek Biblical texts into Latin. The fact of his spiritual journey is not a deal-breaker by any means, as we all have a story to tell about how we became a Christian and our search for Christ, some of them quite stupendous... Paul's story of his conversion is much more dramatic than Augustine's. And even as Christians, we still (regrettably, of course) sin, and many times even besettingly so. As Paul says of himself, and so it is true of us all, even now, we do the things we know we ought not to do, and we don't do the things we know we ought to do... because this "old man" is still with us. One day that will no longer be the case, but for now, the Christian life is a struggle against sin. If you're not struggling against sin at least to some degree, there's something wrong... <smile>

Beyond all that, Augustine did not teach the absence of free will or that man did not have free will. Such would be idiotic, and Augustine definitely was not an idiot. Now, he did teach ~ as the Bible very clear in saying ~ that man is not self-existing from eternity past like God is, of course. And therefore man is not a "free agent" ~ not completely autonomous ~ as God is. God is the Creator, and we are His creatures. Since man is not autonomous ~ which is the real issue ~ then, depending on his spiritual state, the state of his heart ~ man's will is always either to do his father the devil's will or, if born again of the Spirit, to do his Father God's will... man is either dead in sin and thus a slave to unrighteousness or alive in Christ and thus a slave to righteousness... which is exactly what Paul taught in Romans 6.

We will do the Father's will ONLY if we want to.

Right, of course that's true. But we want to only because we have been born again of the Spirit, and our Father is God, and we are in Christ; we now have this new spirit, even God's Holy Spirit, in us, and we therefore walk in this newness of heart, we walk by the Spirit, and keep in step with Him. Yes, we want to, which is an act of the (very free) will.

This is what I've been saying all along, not just to you but to other posters in other threads: THE FOCUS ON OUR WILL IS THE WRONG FOCUS. THE CENTRAL ISSUE, HERE ~ God'sGrace ~ IS NOT... I repeat... NOT THE WILL. Of course... OF COURSE... the will, humanly speaking, is ALWAYS FREE. THE CENTRAL ISSUE, AT ANY GIVEN TIME, IS NOT THE WILL, BUT THE STATE OF THE HEART... who and what the a person is in his/her core being. This is what, at any given time in the person's life, drives his/her will. This is what God says, and should give us a rock-solid picture of what God does for us and how this comes to be regarding our (free) will:

"I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put My Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in My statutes and be careful to obey My rules" (Ezekiel 11:19-20; 36:26-27).

Now you may say, "Oh, PinSeeker, that's the Old Testament, which is not about us today, it was only about the Israelites of old, before Jesus came." Well... <chuckles> ...in the words of the great Lee Corso... <smile> (you may not know who he is) ..."not so fast, my friend"... Paul says this, which is intimately related to what God said above to the Israelites:

"God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ⁠ ~ by grace you have been saved⁠ ~ and raised us up with Him and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages He might show the immeasurable riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them" (Ephesians 2:4-10)

The fact of the matter is, unless and until God, by the working of His Holy Spirit, causes us to be born again (1 Peter 1:3) and the gives His Holy Spirit to that person, THEREBY CHANGING THAT PERSON'S HEART, he or she will always want ~ want, which, again, is an act of the will ~ to do the will of his or her father the devil (John 6, 8, 10). But now, because we have the Spirit and He is working in our heart, we now want to do the will of our Father God. And, therefore, we can "make our calling and election sure," as Paul says in Philippians 2:13, because... "for"... "it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure."

God give us the desire to follow Him with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Yes, and I have said this many times. And Augustine, Luther, and Calvin all did, too. Right. See above.

He will not force us to follow Him.

Right; to think so is idiotic. See above. He enables us to follow Him... He actually frees us from our slavery to unrighteousness... by giving us a new spirit, even His Spirit, and then, yes, we freely do so. Right. See above.

We are free to grieve the Holy Spirit even after salvation.

Ah well that kind of depends on the sense in which you mean "free." We can, and we do grieve the Holy Spirit even after salvation, but we are surely not "free to do so" in the sense of any kind of license to sin. We are Christ's, and in this sense we are not free to sin, as if there is no consequence for sin. There's no condemnation, but there are consequences for sin. We are free in the sense of our former slavery to unrighteousness, but we are not free in the sense in the sense of our slavery to righteousness. Even the apostles call themselves bond-servants ~ slaves ~ of God.

Now. Yes, we still sin, as I said... we make poor decisions... even after we have been born again of the Holy Spirit, because the "old man," as Paul calls it, is still in us. What you say here is in that sense, and yes, in that sense, we are "free to grieve the Holy Spirit." But again, there is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:1), and since God has begun a good work in us, He will bring it to completion at the day of Christ (Philippians 1:6), and through our trials, God is testing our faith, and producing steadfastness in us, which we want to have its full effect and we will ~ someday, though certainly not in this life, but in the life to come ~ be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing (James 1). Jesus is the author and perfecter/finisher of our faith (Hebrews 12:2).

If YOU are correct that God gives to us HIS will...

That's not what I have said. At all. Neither Augustine, nor Luther, nor Calvin, nor any good reformed person, has ever said this or will say it; He does not "give us His will." See above. But He does conform us, over the course of our lives, to the image of His Son; this is what we are predestined for, as Paul says in Ephesians 1:4-5).

then

Yeah there is no "then." The premise is wrong, so everything after your "then" follows suit. See above.

you've stated that you do NOT believe God causes us to sin (evil).

I know He doesn't. To say so would be to make God Himself capable of sin and evil, which is surely not the case.

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[PinSeeker]

2...

Why do we deserve praise and worship for serving/obeying God?

We don't, of course. My point there was and is, this is the implication, however unintended it may be, of the Pelagian/Arminian understanding of what we call soteriology... who does what in salvation.

THIS is exactly what God demands from us....our obedience.

Well, right, but we want to, also, correct? So it's an act of our will. And, if a labor, a labor of love. And remember (I'm sure you do), we love because God first loved us (1 John 4:19). By giving us a new heart, a new spirit, He thereby causes us to walk in obedience. This is exactly what God says in Ezekiel 11:19-20 and Ezekiel 36:26-27. More on that in a moment, but, humanly speaking, we cause ourselves to do this, of course, but again because God has given us this new heart/spirit... again His Spirit.

We absolutely cooperate in our salvation.

Again, 'cooperate' seems to me the wrong word to use there, because the insinuation ~ however unintentional it may be ~ is:

• that we ourselves are at least partially responsible for ~ and therefore deserving of and even praiseworthy for and worthy of glory for ~ our own salvation...
• that these gifts and this call we have received we are responsible for giving ourselves...

Neither one of which is true. If you know these things, then great. You're right in saying we don't "deserve praise and worship for serving/obeying God." But the unintended implication of what Pelagius and Arminius believed in their day and many Christians today believe is... the two bullet points above... which even they would disavow, but it's still the implication of their idea of Biblical soteriology, what they believe it to be, and their idea of man's free will.

You believe we do not...

We do not cooperate, we respond. And willingly so. We respond to it in the form of serving the living God... loving Him and loving our neighbors, on which hangs all the law, according to Jesus Himself, and we do so of our own free will and volition... even eagerly so... we want to please our Father in Heaven. "We love Him..." ~ love Him, which means far, far more than just "a warm fuzzy feeling" toward Him... <smile> ~ "...because He first loved us" (1 John 4:19).

... because you do not believe in libertarian free will.

<chuckles> Your opinion only. I do. It's not about the will. See above.

In YOUR belief system,,,when we sin it is God's fault/responsibility

We're going in circles. <smile> Of course not. If it were, then I would have to then say there was/is no need to believe in Christ, no forgiveness for sin, no need for any atonement, no need to be born again... I mean the list of absurdities would go on for days.

Why be watchful if God is doing all the work and requires no cooperation from us?

Ah, well I would replace the world 'cooperation' in your assertion here, because it's misused. God does require that we walk in a manner becoming a follower of Christ, for sure. As Micah writes, "He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the Lord require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?" And what Micah says here is intimately related to what Paul says in Galatians 5 regarding the fruit of... You-Know-Who, "the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law... those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires"...

We are told to work out our salvation.

Yes we are, because... well, because... for... why, God'sGrace? Why are we able to do this? Why do we... why can we... step forward and do things of our own free will and accord in confidence that we will... will and work for God's good pleasure? What... Who... enables us, gives us the strength and the by His work in us, to do that? It's right there in the text of Philippians 2:13...

Jesus stands at the door and knocks. We must OPEN the door. This is cooperation. One knocks One opens

Is this not a response, rather than "cooperation"...? <smile> We respond to His knock. Many do not...

God has give to mankind the opportunity for salvation... one must take advantage of this opportunity.

Sure. Yes. And He does. And... some, not all, do. But again, one's taking advantage of this opportunity is dependent on something... <smile> See above.

I do agree with what you've posted. It's just not what YOU believe... cooperation is a good word choice for someone that believes in free will.

Ah, so I'm lying... My goodness... <chuckles> And hey, don't I get to determine what I believe? That''s your job? Yeah so you're in charge of my free will? <chuckles>

Anyhoo... back to free will again... Well I believe in free will, too, as I have said, yet you continue to assert that I do not... <smile>

Anyway... <smile> Fair enough, but that's not really what we are talking about. You are, but that's the very issue, as I've said... No offense, but you're still missing the point. Not my point, per se, but the point of what we read in Scripture. See above. It's not about the will, it's about the state of the heart; the will always... ALWAYS... follows the heart. I mean, I'm a bit incredulous that you agree about the heart... or at least say you do... but then having understood about the heart turn right back around and focus on the will... which is a turning away from the point altogether. To use a pun (sort of), you see the heart of the matter, even acknowledging it, but then you turn right around and totally miss the heart of the matter, or just disavow it, but the effect is the same.

If I give you a command to get me a pen... and you get me a pen... you are cooperating with me.

Ah, another "cooperation" example... No, I responded positively. <smile> Because I'm a nice guy... <smile> Nobody assisted me in getting you the pen, much less you. I did it of my own free will and accord, in response to your command, because I'm nice... polite... maybe obedient... but I did it, no one helped me ~ or forced me ~ to do it.

Calvinism and hyper Calvinism is exactly the same.

<chuckles> Sounds like a little ~ and it would just take a very little amount of ~ research is needed on your part. No offense, GodsGrace, but this is a very ignorant statement. Not personal... you yourself are not "ignorant," but what you say here is a very ignorant statement.

Reformed/Calvinist theology HAS NO GOSPEL.

This is another ignorant statement. Absolutely ignorant. Again, not you, personally, but the statement. Now, this is not a comment on your intelligence or any disparagement at all. But... well let me say this in this next comment:

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[PinSeeker]

3 (from above)...

Don't really even know what you mean by Covenant theology.

I'm not surprised. Do some research. It's not hard. You owe it to yourself to know what you're arguing so strenuously against. <smile> That's the thing, GodsGrace. You've made statement after statement through all of this about "the reformed," and Calvinism, and Augustine, and other reformers, and even about me that are not true ~ though you think they are, I get it ~ but you just... as you say here of Covenant theology... don't really even know. You don't. You could, but you don't. You don't even know, really, what you're so opposed to. Again, I don't mean to disparage, or anything like that.

Reformed don't even call the Covenants by the same title.

Ah, you know that's true in the sense that the covenants God made with Adam/Noah (life), Abraham(land, people, personal blessing, blessing for all families through him), Moses (the law), and David (kingship over Israel) were different, but not true in the sense that they are cumulative, each one building on the previous one/ones, and finally coming to full fruition in the Person of Christ Jesus, Who embodies all of them in one everlasting Covenant... so, in order, "I am the way, truth, and the life" (life, of course, even eternal life)... "the meek shall inherit the earth" (land)... and then personal blessing and blessing and true brotherhood for all of Israel, Jew and Gentile alike, in Christ and an innumerable multitude, all one in Christ Jesus and co-heirs with Him. You see?

They call the New Covenant the Cov of Grace.

No, the New Covenant is the full fruition of the covenant of grace. Which... I think we'll disagree on when the covenant of works ended and the covenant of grace began... I'll give you a really strong hint. <smile> The first proclamation of the Gospel of Jesus Christ ~ albeit veiled ~ is... Genesis 3:15... With Adam and Eve standing there, of course, God says to the serpent, "I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring; He shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise His heel."

NO OTHER denomination does this.

Yes they do... <smile> Many don't, but many do. But this is non sequitur, really, it is what it is.

So, I'll be usiing reformed/calvinist as the working title... which is what everybody uses. I'm nice, I put "reformed" in the title, most don't.

Suit yourself. In the sense that John Calvin was one of the original reformers in the Reformation, I'm with you here... <smile>

The reformed do not believe in free will.

We do. Humanly and individually speaking, we always have free will. The will is not the issue. See above.

Augustine did not believe in free will.

He did...

God chooses who will be saved - and NOT by foreknowledge. The reformed believe the same.

Yes, God chooses who will be saved... agreed on that. But Paul says in Romans 8 that... well:

"...those whom He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, in order that He might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom He predestined He also called, and those whom He called He also justified, and those whom He justified He also glorified" (Romans 8:29-30)​

So okay, yes, not "by" foreknowledge, agreed, but because of, or following from, His foreknowledge... His foreknowledge is the first step in this, what we call "the golden chain of salvation," and... the rest of the chain cannot and will not happen without His foreknowledge having first taken place. Now, I know this because we've talked about it before, but you and I will disagree on what this foreknowledge ~ His foreknowledge ~ really is.

NO Covenant was lesser because GOD arranged all of them...

Agreed; you misunderstand what I mean by "lesser." Lesser, not in the sense that they are any less important than the "greater"... but that they point to, and in this case are, altogether, the absolutely necessary building blocks of the "greater," that the "greater" is the fullness of all the "lessers" together.

both the unilateral and the bilateral.

Sure!

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[PinSeeker]

4 (from above)...

However, I understand what you mean and I agree. Also agree that dispensationalism is not biblical.

Ah... well... good. <smile> I sure wish you'd quit... uh... saying so many dispensational things... one might wonder why you keep doing that... <smile>

Faith before belief.

Right; never said or insinuated otherwise. Our belief is the direct result of God having given us faith, which... Hebrews 11:1... is His assurance of things hoped for, and the Holy Spirit's convicting us of things not seen. And this is the action of God upon our heart, not our will.

So where is the free will if God has to save us before we can be saved?

Ohhhh, back to the focus on personal will... Goodness gracious. Okay... <smile> The issue is how we will always use our free will before and/or after we are saved... before or after we are born again of the Spirit... so, before this happens, who is our father, and then, for some of us, after this happens and Who (capital 'W') is our Father (capital 'F'). God saves us by His grace, as you know, and gives us this new spirit in His salvific act. It's not difficult.

"Save us before we can be saved"...? What does that even mean? How do you even get such a thing? Wow. I mean, no need to answer, really...

Just Ephesians 2:8 is sufficient
SAVED BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH
Our FAITH saves us...

Agreed, except... a small but important clarification: faith is the vehicle through which we are saved by grace. I don't really disagree with what you say here, GodsGrace, but... WHO GIVES US THIS FAITH? See above... Again, considering the very definition of faith given in the Bible in Hebrews 11:1, do you assure yourself of things hoped for or convict yourself of things not seen? You cannot assure yourself of things hoped for or convict yourself of things not seen. None of us can. But we can certainly have it, and it is our own... if it is given to us by... the Giver.

Don't know what Luke 18:27 has to do with this.

I'm not sure how you can't... Jesus said, in response to the question "Who then can be saved?"... "What is impossible with man is possible with God.”

I'm not getting into Romans 9...

Suit yourself, but it can't be avoided, really... <smile> Now I'm not saying you are, but Paul knows the difficulty of acceptance of what he's saying and anticipates that even in his writing: "You will say to me then, 'Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?' But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, 'Why have you made me like this?' Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?"

if you wish to start a thread, I'm willing but Romans 9 cannot be discussed off the cuff as some do on these threads.

"Off the cuff"... yeah not even sure what you mean by that. I mean, it is what it is. Difficult to accept, maybe... probably, actually... But not unclear. And like I said above, Paul anticipates that difficulty. But Paul says what he says ~ and even God says what He says, there, considering Paul's indirect quotation of God through Moses in Exodus 33 ~ in no uncertain terms.

Romans 9: Gave give mercy to whom He will.
He gave mercy to the Israelites.
It's a specific case.

We and the Israelites are one people, the people of God. The New Testament Church is the New Testament expression of God's Israel ~ which does not replace the Israelites of old in the sense of being God's chosen people but rather joins them. Another issue in dispensationalism, unfortunately. But as the writer of Hebrews says in Hebrews 1:1-2, using inclusive language, in no uncertain terms, "Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days He has spoken to us by his Son, Whom He appointed the Heir of all things, through Whom also He created the world."

And to all who BELIEVE in His son.
HE decides the method
NOT the person.

Three things:

• Our belief has... a prerequisite... <smile> ...which we cannot cause to happen. "...by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God" (Ephesians 2:8)
• "...at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace" (Romans 11:6).
• Regarding who, then, can be saved, Jesus says, “What is impossible with man is possible with God” (Luke 18:27)

And, of course, you are admitting that God chooses who will be saved.

Right, but this is not what you attributed to me before, the thing which I was denying, GodsGrace. What you attributed to me (and Augustine, and Calvin, and all "the reformed" I guess) is that God chooses who will be damned. I think those were your exact words, and that's what I was denying; that is what is absolutely untrue.

But yes... "admitting"... <chuckles> I have said many times, yes, what you are saying here is exactly what Paul says in Ephesians 1:4-5, that God "chose us in (Christ) before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him (God). In love (God) predestined us for adoption to Himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of His will..." Those are Paul's words verbatim.

And who will be damned.

And there it is... <shaking my head> Well, if you say that by exclusion, or indirectly, then... maybe... but really no. God does not actively choose people to be damned. He chooses some to be saved, to be conformed to the image of His Son, and predestines them to that. But, using exactly what Paul says in Romans 1... because they have "exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things, (God has) given them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator..." ~ all acts of their own free will ~ "God gave them up to dishonorable passions... they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. Though they know God’s righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them." Again, all these things are acts of their free will, GodsGrace. All of them. And if it were not for the grace of God, we would freely do these same things, and God would give us up, give us over to dishonorable passions also.

That is rather EVIL, don't you think?

It would be, if that were the case, but it is not. <smile> They have no one to blame but themselves. They have no excuse, exactly as Paul says.

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[PinSeeker]

From above... Hopefully this will be all; I think this is page 5 but really I've lost count... <smile> And I may be repeating something from above; if so, you'll have to give me some grace... <smile>

So SOVEREIGN means that God could be evil?

Of course not.

So then please accept that God creates evil.

Under no circumstances. To do so would be... the unforgivable sin, actually. Which God Himself keeps us, His elect, from.

If you want to give the Holy Spirit ALL the credit for when we obey... then we will also have to give the Holy Spirit all the responsibility when we sin.

No. <smile> There's only the fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23). Never do we read of the sin of the Spirit. <smile>

If you want, please post it separately because that is MOST MISUNDERSTOOD verse that does not mean what you believe it to mean.

Then tell me what you think it to mean... as if I haven't asked an innumerable multitude of times before, to you and others and gotten nothing but crickets in return...

I'll repeat that the US, and I'm not even looking back to the orig post....
CANNOT mean that God is choosing PERSONS.

Even though Paul speaks specifically of Jacob and Esau, who were... persons... using them as examples of all people... Hmmm...

Why? Because it does not reconcile with the rest of scripture.

So parts of Scripture are in opposition to one another... Hmmm...

Predestination is in the bible...no doubt about it.

That it is...

It's always referring to
METHOD
PURPOSE

God predestines. This is an action, GodsGrace. Something God does. For some, but not all... predestines them to be conformed to the image of His Son, according to His will alone.

NEVER to an individual...well, actually in some very rare cases it does.

In all cases, to all individuals... whom He chooses to do so, as Paul says in Romans 9 of Jacob and Esau, "though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad⁠ ~ in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of Him Who calls⁠..." and in Ephesians 1 of us who have been born again of the Spirit, "(God) chose us in (Christ) before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us for adoption to Himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of His will, to the praise of His glorious grace, with which He has blessed us in the Beloved. In (Christ) we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of (God's) grace, which He lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of His will, according to His purpose, which He set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in Christ, things in heaven and things on earth in Him. In Him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of His glory. In Him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the Gospel of your salvation, and believed in Him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, Who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of His glory."

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[PinSeeker]

From above... page number unknown... <smile> And yes, I know I'm wearing you out, but that's really not my intention...

But then when we DO NOT DO His will.

LOL! Well we fail from time to time, yes, we do not do His will perfectly. Yes, for now, we still sin. But when we confess our sin, He is always faithful and just to forgive... and remove our sin as far as the east is from the west, right?

we'll be forced to blame God for when we do NOT do His will.

No, we confess our sin, and repent... you know that... It's on us... <chuckles> As I said, as Paul says, for now, the old man is still with us, but we strive ~ because we want to ~ put off the old man and put on the new (2 Corinthians 5). Goodness gracious.

This is compatibalist free will Pinseeker.

If you get it right I don't care what you call it, GodsGrace. But therein is the rub... <smile>

You know I'm not going to agree to it no matter how you word it.

I do. That's too bad. <smile> But it is what it is. <smile>

If you wish to discuss free will,,,I'm willing...

Well we both agree that we have it, so what discussion is there to be had? <smile>

but you're going to have to pick ONE TOPIC at a time.

I'm just answering as you do, GodsGrace. These things do tend to get rather unweildy, though, because... well it always happens in these discussions... one thing leads to another, and another, and another...

I know it's difficult because each letter of the acronym leads to the next and it's difficult to keep on topic,,,but we could give it a go.

Uhhhh... are you talking about TULIP here?

The NC is the perfect and last covenant.

It's the final, full, perfect iteration of the one everlasting Covenant. Embodied by Christ. Which was being progressively revealed through the Old Testament. In the same sense as all the types and shadows of Jesus throughout the Old Testament, point to and foreshadow the Real Thing ~ Jesus Himself, of course ~ in the Gospels. You remember; Jesus said the whole Old Testament ~ Moses and the prophets ~ was about Him, explicitly in John 5:46 and implicitly, by Luke, in Luke 24:27 and Luke 24:44-45.

Also agree that dispensationalism is not biblical.

Right, and then ~ if you really agree on that ~ you have to accept the covenantal understanding of Scripture. There really is no middle ground... or other-ground, except to just not believe Scripture... <smile>

I dislike the system...nothing personal here.

Right, nothing personally taken. But, um... "system"... I mean, there is such a thing as we all call systematic theology. And in the case of the Bible, there are only two "systems." <smile> Or, again, possibly a third, which would be to just say it's all bunk... <smile>

Just Ephesians 2:8 is sufficient
SAVED BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH
Our FAITH saves us

Right, but what is faith, GodsGrace? Hebrews 11:1 gives us the definition. Yes, so assurance of things hoped for, conviction of things not seen. Yes, so do you assure yourself of these hoped for things? Do you give yourself conviction of things not seen? No, you cannot... we cannot. It has to be given to us by... something, someone, actually... outside ourselves. If we do it for ourselves, then I would argue it is no real assurance or conviction at all. God gives us this assurance, God's Grace. And it is the Holy Spirit Who convicts us of these things we do not see. And our faith itself is a gift of the Holy Spirit; Paul says this specifically and explicitly in 1 Corinthians 12:4-11, and faith is mentioned specifically and explicitly in verse 9. Now Paul is speaking specifically of those who have been born again here:

"Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit; and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord; and there are varieties of activities, but it is the same God Who empowers them all in everyone. To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. For to one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as He wills."

Don't know what Luke 18:27 has to do with this.

We cannot save ourselves; only God can do this. You know that. But the implication of what you have been saying... and I know very well this is not your intent, but it is the implication... is that we are at least partially responsible for our own salvation.

I'm not getting into Romans 9...

Right, you avoid it. Or try to explain it away as a "method"... <smile> But it is what it is.

if you wish to start a thread, I'm willing but Romans 9 cannot be discussed off the cuff as some do on these threads.

Romans 9: Gave give mercy to whom He will.
He gave mercy to the Israelites.

Yes, individual Israelites. Same now as then. As he did for Jacob but not for Esau, who were both Israelites... even twin brothers, actually; you know that, too...

It's a specific case.

And to all who BELIEVE in His son.
HE decides the method
NOT the person.

Wow. I mean you actually say it here and then refute it: "to all who believe in him," so to the persons WHO believe in Him, so both individually and corporately, and then "not the person." I mean that's just astounding, given your obvious intelligence.

Are you speaking of the ECFs?

Only Moses and the prophets and the apostles... the writers of the Bible... had God's Word breathed into them and were thus inspired. I'm really not sure who you consider to be "ECF," and it's really no concern to me, to be honest.

Augustine was one...although much too late for me.

Fair enough. Not a concern.

Do you know about Ignatius? He was taught by John and Peter.

But not inspired in the sense of Biblical inspiration.

Do you know about Clement of Rome? He was mentioned in a letter and was taught by Paul.

But not inspired in the sense of Biblical inspiration.

No disagreements in the beginning.

Paul addressed many in his letters, especially the ones to the Corinthians and the Galatians.

I taught 7 Covenants and I know what the sign of the New Covenant is. So,,,agreed.

Good. Although that seems an abrupt about-face... But, if so, great.

OOOH. You learned something !! Wonder what it is !! LOL

Thaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat... you're a girl. LOL!

Probably about free will. Maybe we could discuss only free will?

Have we not discussed it ad nauseum now? We have... And we agree that we have it, so what is there to discuss further? <smile>

To our Sovereign God be ALL the glory.

Absolutely.

Grace and peace to you!

 

[NayborBear]

One day that will no longer be the case, but for now, the Christian life is a struggle against sin. If you're not struggling against sin at least to some degree, there's something wrong...

I tend to say: If you're not feeling persecuted?" "Then, you're either doing something wrong?" "Or, not doing something correctly."
1 Peter 2:5
Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
Meaning, yes! You could offer up spiritual sacrifices sure!
Yet, if Jesus Christ of Nazareth doesn't see fit that they would be acceptable to God?
Yer just "spinning your wheels." (or,doing something correctly)

 

[GodsGrace]

He didn't. The perception of that is understandable, but he did not.


I would actually really, really like that. And would challenge you to do so.

This convo will soon come to an end.
You're requesting me to PROVE that Augustine did not believe in free will.
Augustine....the FIRST Catholic....in the 5th century that taught PREDESTINATION...which REQUIRED man have no free will.
Interesting.

I'll post this since it's the easiest to understand and am always doing this for those reading along who may be interested.

The discussion of free will, as understood by Augustine, is at about the 13. mark.
Augustine changed his positon on this a couple of times but did have to state, in the end, that man has no free will due to his belief in predestination and the problem of evil - which I believe I brought up in my first posts and which greatly affected his life.

Regardless of where you got them, you have some very wrongheaded understandings of who Augustine was and what he believed and taught. Starting with this one... "Not trained in scriptural grammar." That's laughably untrue; his chief linguistic mentors were Plato, who was Greek to the core, and Cicero, an Italian who translated the Greek Biblical texts into Latin.

There's a problem here.
Either I am not explaining myself properly
or
You are not understanding my statements.

I NEVER said Augustine was not an intelligent person.
He is one of the GREATEST church DOCTORS in terms of intellect.
Thomas Acquinas being either on his level or even above it...but not many achieve these heights.

What I stated, and will repeat is that Augustine was not WELL VERSED in BIBLICAL LANGUAGE.

If you recall, it was HIS interpretation of Romans 5:12 that have caused much grief in Christian theology in reference to ORIGINAL SIN and what it means for each person.

Also, you mention the Latin version of the NT.
If his mentors were tranlsators of the Greek into Latin....
do you accept those LATIIN versions??
Or do you they are as incorrect as the translation by Jeromej??

The fact of his spiritual journey is not a deal-breaker by any means, as we all have a story to tell about how we became a Christian and our search for Christ, some of them quite stupendous...

Oh, but yes sir,,,,
Augustine's spiritual journey had EVERYTHING to do with his ultimate conclusions.
This was due to GUILT.

You really should read some books about him that are written by those that do not have a reformed bend toward him.
You might start with Dr. Ken Wilson.....I did mention him to you. Apparently there's no interest in learning the truth.

Paul's story of his conversion is much more dramatic than Augustine's. And even as Christians, we still (regrettably, of course) sin, and many times even besettingly so. As Paul says of himself, and so it is true of us all, even now, we do the things we know we ought not to do, and we don't do the things we know we ought to do... because this "old man" is still with us. One day that will no longer be the case, but for now, the Christian life is a struggle against sin. If you're not struggling against sin at least to some degree, there's something wrong... <smile>

No reply required.
Irrelevent.

Beyond all that, Augustine did not teach the absence of free will or that man did not have free will. Such would be idiotic, and Augustine definitely was not an idiot. Now, he did teach ~ as the Bible very clear in saying ~ that man is not self-existing from eternity past like God is, of course. And therefore man is not a "free agent" ~ not completely autonomous ~ as God is. God is the Creator, and we are His creatures. Since man is not autonomous ~ which is the real issue ~ then, depending on his spiritual state, the state of his heart ~ man's will is always either to do his father the devil's will or, if born again of the Spirit, to do his Father God's will... man is either dead in sin and thus a slave to unrighteousness or alive in Christ and thus a slave to righteousness... which is exactly what Paul taught in Romans 6.

The problme is that YOU don't get to decide what Augustine taught.
Scholars have already done this for us.

Right, of course that's true. But we want to only because we have been born again of the Spirit, and our Father is God, and we are in Christ; we now have this new spirit, even God's Holy Spirit, in us, and we therefore walk in this newness of heart, we walk by the Spirit, and keep in step with Him. Yes, we want to, which is an act of the (very free) will.

This is what I've been saying all along, not just to you but to other posters in other threads: THE FOCUS ON OUR WILL IS THE WRONG FOCUS. THE CENTRAL ISSUE, HERE ~ God'sGrace ~ IS NOT... I repeat... NOT THE WILL. Of course... OF COURSE... the will, humanly speaking, is ALWAYS FREE. THE CENTRAL ISSUE, AT ANY GIVEN TIME, IS NOT THE WILL, BUT THE STATE OF THE HEART... who and what the a person is in his/her core being. This is what, at any given time in the person's life, drives his/her will. This is what God says, and should give us a rock-solid picture of what God does for us and how this comes to be regarding our (free) will:

The discussion should be direct toward whether or not man has free will.

This requires SCRIPTURE and not long paragraphs of what YOU believe.


part 1 of 2

 

[GodsGrace]

Oh.
And now I have to deal with NO MORE THAN 10,000 words...
which means I could sit here till NOON !!

No can do Pinseeker.
Choose ONE TOPIC
And we'll continue.

part 2 of 2

"I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put My Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in My statutes and be careful to obey My rules" (Ezekiel 11:19-20; 36:26-27).

Now you may say, "Oh, PinSeeker, that's the Old Testament, which is not about us today, it was only about the Israelites of old, before Jesus came." Well... <chuckles> ...in the words of the great Lee Corso... <smile> (you may not know who he is) ..."not so fast, my friend"... Paul says this, which is intimately related to what God said above to the Israelites:

You don't know what I would say.

Perhaps you don't know that I happen to know the Covenants really well.

But what does that have to do with anything?

These posts are a waste of time since they contain no WORD OF GOD...scripture.

"God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ⁠ ~ by grace you have been saved⁠ ~ and raised us up with Him and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages He might show the immeasurable riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them" (Ephesians 2:4-10)

The fact of the matter is, unless and until God, by the working of His Holy Spirit, causes us to be born again (1 Peter 1:3) and the gives His Holy Spirit to that person, THEREBY CHANGING THAT PERSON'S HEART, he or she will always want ~ want, which, again, is an act of the will ~ to do the will of his or her father the devil (John 6, 8, 10). But now, because we have the Spirit and He is working in our heart, we now want to do the will of our Father God. And, therefore, we can "make our calling and election sure," as Paul says in Philippians 2:13, because... "for"... "it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure."


Yes, and I have said this many times. And Augustine, Luther, and Calvin all did, too. Right. See above.

Sorry PS
Can't sit here for more than an hour replying.

As I've stated...
pick a TOPIC and we'll concentrate on THAT TOPIC

and, yes, scripture will be necessary,,which you have posted above.
MAKE YOUR POINT and stop writing a thesis.

Right; to think so is idiotic. See above. He enables us to follow Him... He actually frees us from our slavery to unrighteousness... by giving us a new spirit, even His Spirit, and then, yes, we freely do so. Right. See above.

If I have idiotic ideas....
WHY do you wish to waste your time here?

When persons begin to speak idiocy,,,
I quickly stop posting to them.

Ah well that kind of depends on the sense in which you mean "free." We can, and we do grieve the Holy Spirit even after salvation, but we are surely not "free to do so" in the sense of any kind of license to sin. We are Christ's, and in this sense we are not free to sin, as if there is no consequence for sin. There's no condemnation, but there are consequences for sin. We are free in the sense of our former slavery to unrighteousness, but we are not free in the sense in the sense of our slavery to righteousness. Even the apostles call themselves bond-servants ~ slaves ~ of God.

If I recall we have not come to an agreement as to what free will means.

YOU believe in compatiblist free will,,,which is not biblical.

I believe in libertarian free will...which is biblical.

Now. Yes, we still sin, as I said... we make poor decisions... even after we have been born again of the Holy Spirit, because the "old man," as Paul calls it, is still in us. What you say here is in that sense, and yes, in that sense, we are "free to grieve the Holy Spirit." But again, there is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:1), and since God has begun a good work in us, He will bring it to completion at the day of Christ (Philippians 1:6), and through our trials, God is testing our faith, and producing steadfastness in us, which we want to have its full effect and we will ~ someday, though certainly not in this life, but in the life to come ~ be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing (James 1). Jesus is the author and perfecter/finisher of our faith (Hebrews 12:2).


That's not what I have said. At all. Neither Augustine, nor Luther, nor Calvin, nor any good reformed person, has ever said this or will say it; He does not "give us His will." See above. But He does conform us, over the course of our lives, to the image of His Son; this is what we are predestined for, as Paul says in Ephesians 1:4-5).

Oh my.
You really do need to learn the Reformed faith.