Hiddenthings
Well-Known Member
Are you being a little pedantic now?
Are you saying the words commandments (plural) is not used in the NT?
Hmmm I agree with your point but disagree with your approach.
Could Ezekiel 37, 38 and 39 all be post millennial?
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Are you saying the words commandments (plural) is not used in the NT?
Hmmm I agree with your point but disagree with your approach.
Zao is life
Well-Known Member
The apostles tell us in 1 John 3:15 & 17-18; James 2:15-16 (also James 2:1-4); Galatians 5:22-23 and Romans 13:8-1 what obedience to the commandment looks like and doesn't look like; and Jesus tells us what it doesn't look like in Matthew 25:37-40, and explains to us how to produce the fruit of obedience to His commandment in John 15:4-5.
Hiddenthings
Well-Known Member
The Apostle John “Hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.”
It's in the same vein
“You are my friends, if you do whatsoever I command you.” John 15:14
I could do this all day Zao - like I said I agree with your point, but your approach was wrong on this occasion.
Hiddenthings
Well-Known Member
@Zao is life
I like Revelation 14:12 also “Here are they that keep the commandments of God…”
I wonder if you know the application of Revelation 13:10?
I like Revelation 14:12 also “Here are they that keep the commandments of God…”
I wonder if you know the application of Revelation 13:10?
Zao is life
Well-Known Member
Both words are used. Still only one commandment.
John 6
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
1 John 3:23: One commandment:
(a) Believe on the name of the Son of God, Jesus Christ.
(b) Love one another, as he gave us commandment.
23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.
Zao is life
Well-Known Member
If you do not know that Jesus Christ is God in whom is life who took on human flesh you do not know Christ and cannot understand His Word.
Zao is life
Well-Known Member
The dragon gave him his power.
There was given unto him (by the dragon) a M-O-U-T-H speaking great things and blasphemies.
He opened his M--O-U-T-H in blasphemy.
It was given unto him (by the dragon) to make war with the saints, and to overcome them.
Perhaps God will grant them repentance and then knowledge of the truth and they will come to their senses and escape the devil's trap where they are held C-A-P-T-I-V-E to do his will. -- 2 Tim 2:25-26.
(Because) they are traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof.
For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead C-A-P-T-I-V-E silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. -- 2 Tim 3:4-6
If any man have an ear, let him hear. He that leadeth into C-A-P-T-I-V-I-T-Y shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with THE SWORD.
Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
Because the beast out of whose MOUTH came blasphemy, and his false prophet, will both be cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone, and the rest will be slain by THE SWORD proceeding from the mouth of Christ.
Because this is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent, so we are to
(a) Believe on the name of the Son of God, Jesus Christ; and to
(b) Love one another, as he gave us commandment.
Hiddenthings
Well-Known Member
You are proving something I have already agreed with you on and yet you deny the plural form?
Strange.
Hiddenthings
Well-Known Member
Hiddenthings
Well-Known Member
If you do not understand the New Creation and what it means to be in him, it will be impossible for you to truly understand his Word.
Maybe your god is a New Creation?
My God is the Great Uncreate!
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Hiddenthings
Well-Known Member
“Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.”
The retribution foretold in Revelation 13:10 will surely be accomplished, and the victory of the Name of Yahweh over every blasphemous name will be complete. The Redeemed have long anticipated the decisive crisis that will bring the Harlot system to its end. During the dark ages, as they endured persecution at its hands, they waited with steadfast patience for the judgment they were confident would ultimately come upon it.
Like then, today many have drunk of her wine and become intoxicated by her carnal desires. @Zao is life you teach her doctrines ignorant of whom you belong.
The retribution foretold in Revelation 13:10 will surely be accomplished, and the victory of the Name of Yahweh over every blasphemous name will be complete. The Redeemed have long anticipated the decisive crisis that will bring the Harlot system to its end. During the dark ages, as they endured persecution at its hands, they waited with steadfast patience for the judgment they were confident would ultimately come upon it.
Like then, today many have drunk of her wine and become intoxicated by her carnal desires. @Zao is life you teach her doctrines ignorant of whom you belong.
You seem to be trying to prove something that is not an issue for those who know the nature, duties and responsibility of a shepherd. Shepherding involves feeding and protecting the sheep. But, it also involves dealing with predators. Spiritually, we know that Jesus nourishes His children, but he also destroys His enemies. As sovereign shepherd over mankind, He rules over all. When He comes, He is going to separate the sheep from the goats. He will shepherd over them, just like He shepherds over the nations today. The sheep will be ushered to His right side. The goats will be herded to His left hand. His sheep will be rewarded. The goats will be destroyed.
Revelation 2:25-27: “And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end [Gr. telos], to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule [Gr. poimaino] them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be ‘broken to shivers’ [Gr. suntribo]: even as I received of my Father.”
The unindoctrinated mind will have no difficulty understanding the truth being presented here. It's very clear and unambiguous. We are looking at the total wholesale destruction of the wicked. That is what awaits the ungodly when Jesus comes.
Christ is talking to the Church (the elect/the overcomers) and telling them that they will have "power" over "the nation" when He comes (speaking of Judgment Day). He then shows that this will correspond with the destruction of the nations: "as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers." How can the nations survive? They cannot!
Please note that there is no mention of a future 1,000 years. That is because Revelation 20 relates to the here-and-now. When Christ comes it is "the end" (see it in the text above)!
Premils have to ignore/dismiss the crucial words patasso, meaning to smite, and suntribo, meaning to break to shivers, in Revelation 2:25-27. There is no sense or mention of, or allowance for, survivors, as they imagine. All the wicked are destroyed. There is no one left to inherit this supposed future millennium full of sin and sinners, dying and crying, decay and disease.
There is no reward awaiting these proud Christ-rejecters. When a pot is broken with an iron rod it is destroyed, not subjugated. It's state changes completely and it does not continue in its prior state. When therefore the wicked are “broken,” “dashed to pieces,” “cut off,” then “the wicked shall be no more” at the second coming. This is not an exercise in rulership, subjugation, or discipline; but rather their total obliteration; thus, the meaning of the analogy of the rod and the pottery. The vivid picture painted is of the potter destroying an unwanted useless vessel.
You need to see what the word poimaino means and how similar kindred words are interpreted elsewhere in Scripture. The word poimaino in this reading which is rendered “rule” in the AV, carries the consistent meaning of shepherd and shepherding in Scripture.
The picture here is of a Shepherd with a rod. However, this is NO ordinary Shepherd with no ordinary rod. The Shepherd here is Christ, and He is coming in His wrath at the end of this age to deal with the wicked thus the significance of the rod of iron. He is a jealous Shepherd who is finally coming to destroy those that have rejected Him. The shepherding is clearly associated with the FINAL separation.
Whatever the “rule” here relates to, it involves the wholesale destruction of the wicked. This demolishes the whole Premillennialist thesis of this event ushering 1000 years of perfect bliss with the righteous reigning over the mortal wicked on a regenerated earth in perfect justice.
The original Greek in Revelation 19:15 states “he should smite the nations [Gr. patasso ho ethnos kai autous poimaino autous], and shepherd them with a rod of iron.”
The coming of Christ is not to high-five sin and mollycoddle sinners. It is to judge sinners and banish sin from the earth forever. Premil ushers countless mortal rebels unto the new earth, but Scripture shows they are all totally destroyed. The new earth is incorrupt! Only the incorrupt can possess it. Your argument conflicts with clear and repeated Scripture.
A plain reading of the passage before us reveals that Christ is actually coming back with wrath to execute judgment and destroy all those left behind. He is not going to reward men for their rebellion by leading them unto the glorified new earth. Neither is Christ coming to engage in some ill-fated war against evil for a thousand years – that is not remotely in the text. The King of kings and Lord of lords will not have to fight for victory. He already won that decisively at the cross.
The same Shepherd who will comfort His sheep (the elect) will also destroy the goats (the wicked). This teaching is taken from Psalm 2:1-12. See what it is saying: “Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing? The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying, Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us. He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision. Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure. Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion. I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.Thou shalt break [Heb ra` a`] them with a rod of iron; ‘thou shalt dash them in pieces’ [Heb naphats] like a potter's vessel. Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth. Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling. Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.”
The thrust of this passage is: if men refuse to embrace Christ (and receive His reward) they will face destruction when He comes. There is no sense of any other outcome.
The picture here is of a Shepherd with a rod. However, this is NO ordinary Shepherd with NO ordinary rod. The Shepherd here is Christ, and He is coming in His wrath at the end of this age to deal with the wicked thus the significance of the rod of iron. He is a jealous Shepherd who is finally coming to destroy those that have rejected Him. The shepherding is clearly associated with the FINAL separation.
There is no sense or mention of, or allowance for, survivors, as you imagine. All the wicked are destroyed. There is no one left to inherit this supposed future millennium full of sin and sinners, dying and crying, decay and disease.
The Hebrew word ra` a` means to spoil: literally, by breaking to pieces; figuratively, to make (or be) good for nothing. The Hebrew word naphats here derives from a primitive root; to dash to pieces, or scatter.
The Lord encounters only 2 types of people when He comes – saved or lost, sheep or goats. The sheep enter into their eternal inheritance; the goats receive their eternal punishment. Nothing could be simpler. You invent some 3rd group of humans that are too righteous to be destroyed at the second coming, yet too wicked to be rescued, yet Premil argue among themselves who they actually are. The reality is: they don't exist.
Nowhere in any of these passages is there any insinuation of a 1,000 years shepherding (or ruling) over the nations -as Premil alleges. What is more, Nowhere in Rev 20 is there any mention of (1) a rod of iron, (2) Christ on earth, (3) and therefore Christ ruling on earth with a rod of iron for 1,000 years. You will only find that in the Premil textbooks.
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No mention of a thousand years, yet a period of time after the 2nd coming and before 1 Corinthians 15:28 is fulfilled, is obviously implied. All Amil seems to do with these things is to flatten them into one day events. It makes zero sense to give overcomers power over the nations after Christ returns, if that power is only for one day or less. Keeping in mind, per Amil there are no more days after Christ returns, that 1 Corinthians 15:28 is somehow miraculously fulfilled the same day He returns. I'm sorry, but I can't agree with a mindset like that, that all these prophecies in the OT and NT pertaining to post the 2nd coming are all fulfilled within a single day or less.
I also tend to think the following is connected with being given power over the nations when He returns--have thou authority over ten cities(Luke 19:17). I don't know what that might look like to have authority over 10 cities. But I do know it makes zero sense to only have authority over 10 cities for 1 day or less. Once again keeping in mind, per Amil there are no more days after Christ returns, that 1 Corinthians 15:28 is somehow miraculously fulfilled the same day He returns.
Amil has to be rejected. And thankfully it is not the position of every believer in the past, present and future.
The power over the nations is to judge . Various Scripture teaches that.
Jesus makes a large promise to His elect in Revelation 3:21: “To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.”
I am sure you would agree that it would have to be a mighty big throne to sit all the redeemed at the one time on. Is this what it is literally saying? Or, is there a spiritual meaning here?
I believe He is talking about the spiritual standing we enjoy “in Christ” through our spiritual union with him.” When you are united to Christ you possess spiritual power and authority. Anything that we are, or anything that we possess, that is of any spiritual worth, emanates solely from what Christ has done for us and how we partake in that.
Our Lord promises that we will one day sit with Him on His throne and share His power and authority.
Revelation 2:25-27 says, “that which ye have already hold fast till I come. And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule (poimaino) them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be ‘broken to shivers’ (suntribo): even as I received of my Father.”
That is just talking about judgment day, nothing more, nothing less. Where is a future 1,000 years mentioned there? Nowhere! Premillennialism lacks evidence and corroboration for many of its claims. God’s people are going to join Christ in exercising authority and judgment over the nations on Judgment Day!
The judgment believers possess is in their current spiritual standing in Christ. He rules and reigns over the wicked now. This is a positional thing.
1 Corinthians 6:2-3 says, “Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?”
Scripture clearly shows us that “the saints will judge the world” and “shall judge angels.” In short, the righteous judge the wicked through their spiritual standing “in Christ.” As “joint-heirs” with the Savior (Romans 8:18), we stand with Him in the judgment. This is a very privileged position.
When does this happen?
When Jesus comes in His glory. Jesus said, in Matthew 19:28, “Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.”
This fits in with countless passages in Holy Writ that demonstrate that judgment day is an event that occurs on the last day, where the righteous are rewarded and the wicked are banished to the lake of fire. We do not need to import anything else into these. For you to do otherwise is to depict your millennium as one ongoing judgment of natural Israel. This is the opposite to classic Premil that elevates Israel to a favor place in their millennium and shows them restoring their whole old covenant apparatus in the presence of Jesus.
This passage locates “the regeneration” at the second coming “when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory.” Here, they will be judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
I don’t believe this is talking about twelve literal stone judgment seats; it is simply referring to the authority that will be exercised by the redeemed when He appears. Unbelieving Israel will be judged by the redeemed saints of all nations – they are “the regeneration” that join Him “when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory” to judge the nations. Israel is shown to be judged at the second coming. Like every other Christ-rejecting nation, they will be cast into the lake of fire. Only those that love Christ will be saved. This is therefore an allusion to the general judgment which occurs at Christ's coming. The elect will judge the Christ rejecting nations and the twelve tribes of Israel that have rejected Christ since His earthly ministry. This passage is simply identifying the group of people that will “sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel” – namely “ye which have followed me, in the regeneration.” This regeneration refers to those who have been changed into Christ's image. This is evidently talking about the elect of all time. It is the elect (both Jew and Gentile) that will judge Christ-rejecting Israel. A future earthly millennial kingdom is not remotely mentioned in this reading.
Jesus said, in Luke 22:29-30: “I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me; That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.”
Luke 22:29-30 is not denoting any particular order but simply two realities that happen when Jesus comes. It is simply reinforcing the fact that we are going to carry authority in the age to come and will enjoy sweet fellowship forever. Again, there is no millennium mentioned or inferred here. You force that into the text.
The righteous witness of the elect will testify against the ungodly on the last day. No one will be without excuse.
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You started this OP some days ago and have yet to explain why you think this is the solution. Speaking for myself, I gave numerous reasons why I don't think it is the solution. But that doesn't explain why you think it is the solution by placing all 3 chapters after the millennium during satan's little season.
Thus far, good arguments. I'll leave it at that.
And Amil is ignoring Zechariah 14:12 and what follows after that verse, not before that verse, but after that verse, meaning Zechariah 14:16-19.
Psalms 2:8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
We can't divorce verse 9 from this in verse 8---I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance.
In pottery, broken or marred clay can be reworked, reshaped, or recycled into a new, improved form. Maybe that's the point? And not what you take it to mean in verse 9 instead.
Stop avoiding. Address the text in question instead of diverting around it. Every time you are defeated by the text you introduce Zechariah 14. You are fixated with that.
You have repeatedly been shown that Zechariah 14 relates to the first advent. You refuse to see that. Why do you keep bringing it up when you have run from multiple rebuttals for years? You run away from passage after passage, that forbid your doctrine, by your misinterpretation of Zechariah 14.
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This covers the whole intra-Advent period right up until the end. What is the difficulty with that? This is ongoing to the second coming.
The thrust of this passage is: if men refuse to embrace Christ (and receive His reward) during the spread of the Gospel to the nations then theyr will be destroyed. They will face destruction when He comes. There is no sense of any other outcome.
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