Why doesn't your "whole Bible view" include Universalism?

[St. SteVen]

The Lord is not a monster

I agree.
But incinerating someone for refusing a free gift seems a bit harsh.

--- PARODY ---

Person #1: Receive the free gift of eternal life.
Person #2: No thanks.
Person #1: I said it was free.
Person #2: There must be some strings attached.
Person #1: Well, of course.
Person #2: It's not a free gift then, right?
Person #1: You had better take it... or else!
Person #2: Say what?
Person #1: Otherwise you will be incinerated!
Person #2: What sort of free gift is that?

Indeed.

 

[St. SteVen]

... everything He says and had written down is the truth.

Except the bit about eternal conscious torment?

 

[St. SteVen]

Every individual chooses to believe the devil at some point, and we all FELL...into the fowler's snare....we all succumbed to whatever temptation came and chose to go our own way , a way that "seemeth-ed" right to us at the time but wasn't......we stepped into the snare. and it snapped shut over us like a bear trap. Just like Eve. We all chose in our proud and rebellious heart to obey/believe the devil and disobey the Lord and His way.

Do we deserve a bit of consideration since we are fighting an invisible enemy?

 

[St. SteVen]

... when we fall out of line with His holiness and purity, and the way He made us and the universe, bad things kind of naturally ensue.

I thought that was the goal, not the expectation. Are you there yet?

 

[Lizbeth]

So, the will of humans supersedes God's will?
The scripture is pretty clear about eternal conscious torment, but you don't believe in that.
You make your choices and I make mine.

Revelation 14:11 NIV
And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever.
There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image,
or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”


It's not individuals that perish and are destroyed, but rather sin.
We'll all need some barnacle removal before we are done.

Mark 9:49 NIV
Everyone will be salted with fire.

Malachi 3:2 NIV
But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears?
For he will be like a refiner’s fire or a launderer’s soap.

The Lord is sovereign over all....He knows the end from the beginning. Based on His foreknowledge He has made some to be vessels of mercy and others to be vessels of wrath.......it is.based on their own choices.

"Smoke" of their torment rising forever doesn't have to mean they will be in torment forever. God exists outside of time.....the "fact" that they were in such torment will exist forever, or the memory of it for those who witness it (the angels and the Lamb). And I believe that passage is not talking about judgment of souls after death, but the hour of trial that will come upon the whole world....the plagues of wrath and judgment being poured out, when men will be seeking death and not finding it., and crying out for the rocks to cover them from the wrath of the Lamb. God's people will be kept from that.....those who "keep the word of His patience".

Rev 14:9-13

And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.


Rev 3:10

Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown,

 

[Lizbeth]

Do we deserve a bit of consideration since we are fighting an invisible enemy?

God knows all the circumstances of our lives....how and why we were tempted, what circumstances the devil was exploiting and even what he conspired to do that would make us more apt to be tempted. In God's justness and mercy and compassion He provided the way to be forgiven and rescued from the snare.........in and through His Son.. But not all will avail themselves, unfortunately. And just think, Eve had no untoward circumstances when she fell.....all fall and go their own way even if everything in their life is going fine. It truly is pride and rebellion at the bottom of it for all of us.....and not everyone is willing to repent of it, so their own pride and rebellion keep them from seeking God and receiving Christ. God does all He can on His end to make people willing, those who He foreknew.....circumstances of my life as a young adult were such that they humbled me enough to help prepare my heart to receive Jesus when He came calling. It is only in hindsight that I see how utterly wise He was in how things went.

 

[Lizbeth]

I thought that was the goal, not the expectation. Are you there yet?

Thankfully, we have His grace..........those who do know Him.

 

[Lizbeth]

I agree.
But incinerating someone for refusing a free gift seems a bit harsh.

--- PARODY ---

Person #1: Receive the free gift of eternal life.
Person #2: No thanks.
Person #1: I said it was free.
Person #2: There must be some strings attached.
Person #1: Well, of course.
Person #2: It's not a free gift then, right?
Person #1: You had better take it... or else!
Person #2: Say what?
Person #1: Otherwise you will be incinerated!
Person #2: What sort of free gift is that?

Indeed.

I believe the idea of "incineration" as you call it, is a parable/allegory and hyperbole to cause us to feel the urgency of the situation. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth....a torment from seeing what one truly is in the light of the Lord (not a pretty sight) and of knowing one's fate in light of what one could have had....and utter regret of knowing it is too late. But ultimately, to the best of my understanding that I see in scripture which I have been trying to lay out.......it is at bottom a case of either receive eternal life or don't (in which case life will end for them like the animals/beasts that perish). And who are we to judge the Almighty? Hullo??

 

[Button]

All must be destroyed as was Christ. Paul, Peter and all of God's elect and the rest of the church and the sea of humanity must all be destroyed.

Please post the passage where that is written.

All too will be saved but in certain order just as St St. Steven has been trying to explain and doing a fine job i might add.

We'll see.

 

[Lizbeth]

Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God.

I'll hold to what Ecclesiastes 12 teaches us.

Platonism was a big influence in the NT. People couldn't comprehend an afterlife without a body.

God Bless.

Wow, so you believe Paul was under the influence of paganism? You don't accept the new testament scriptures?

The body we receive is like that of the angels who are able to appear/disappear and when they appear it is in a body.. Jesus said we would be "like the angels". And it is like the body of the resurrected Christ who appeared/disappeared and at one point appeared to over 500 people at the same time.. It is a heavenly body, not bound by space and time.

Jhn 3:8
“The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

There are testimonies of believers experiencing this even now....as scripture says we may taste the powers of the world to come. Philip was an example too, as he was translated bodily to another location.

 

[Button]

Wow, so you believe Paul was under the influence of paganism? You don't accept the new testament scriptures?

The body we receive is like that of the angels who are able to appear/disappear and when they appear it is in a body.. Jesus said we would be "like the angels". And it is like the body of the resurrected Christ who appeared/disappeared and at one point appeared to over 500 people at the same time.. It is a heavenly body, not bound by space and time.

Jhn 3:8
“The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

There are testimonies of believers experiencing this even now....as scripture says we may taste the powers of the world to come. Philip was an example too, as he was translated bodily to another location.

I have to choose?

Maybe you're wrong.

 

[St. SteVen]

The Lord is sovereign over all....He knows the end from the beginning. Based on His foreknowledge He has made some to be vessels of mercy and others to be vessels of wrath.......it is.based on their own choices.

I'm familiar with the "blame the victim" apologetic.

.......it is at bottom a case of either receive eternal life or don't (in which case life will end for them like the animals/beasts that perish). And who are we to judge the Almighty? Hullo??

We still have those pesky unreached people groups.
Did God really do everything He could to save all of humankind before physical death?

 

[Button]

The Lord is sovereign over all....He knows the end from the beginning. Based on His foreknowledge He has made some to be vessels of mercy and others to be vessels of wrath.......it is.based on their own choices.

No,it is not. That very idea is contrary to sovereign dominion.

You said it yourself. Or,the Bible did. Based on God's foreknowledge.
Having sovereign dominion over his creation.
God created some people as vessels of mercy. And others as vessels of wrath.
Vessels thus created by Creator to be, do not then choose to be.

Proverbs 16:4 (OJB )
Hashem (The Name) works out all things for Himself, indeed, even the rasha (wicked) for the Yom Ra’ah (day of evil).

 

[Lizbeth]

No,it is not. That very idea is contrary to sovereign dominion.

You said it yourself. Or,the Bible did. Based on God's foreknowledge.
Having sovereign dominion over his creation.
God created some people as vessels of mercy. And others as vessels of wrath.
Vessels thus created by Creator to be, do not then choose to be.

Proverbs 16:4 (OJB )
Hashem (The Name) works out all things for Himself, indeed, even the rasha (wicked) for the Yom Ra’ah (day of evil).

It is God's omniscient foreknowledge of everyone's hearts and foreknowing how each one would respond to Him, and to the gospel. He foreknew everyone before He created them. How I understand it is that those who He foreknew would reject Him and not repent, He created them anyway....to be vessels of wrath. The bible says explicitly that believers are "elect according to the foreknowledge of God". He chose us in Him from the foundation of the world.....predestination is based on His foreknowledge.

 

[ProDeo]

We still have those pesky unreached people groups.

Calvinism will solve that, but fortunately God is no Calvinist, so the question remains.

1Petr 4:6 For this is why the gospel was preached even to those who are dead, that though judged in the flesh the way people are, they might live in the spirit the way God does.

Christ preached the Gospel to the dead so it is not unreasonable to think that will be also the case when those people die.

Did God really do everything He could to save all of humankind before physical death?

Depends how you look on that, here is a puzzle for you, a sinner stands before the great white throne, he says : Dear God, I now see it, I regret my sins and I need Christ, I repent, please have mercy on me. The vast majority believes God will say no, but how do we know? It's what God always wanted, sinners who repent and follow Christ.

 

[St. SteVen]

It is God's omniscient foreknowledge of everyone's hearts and foreknowing how each one would respond to Him, and to the gospel. He foreknew everyone before He created them. How I understand it is that those who He foreknew would reject Him and not repent, He created them anyway....to be vessels of wrath. The bible says explicitly that believers are "elect according to the foreknowledge of God". He chose us in Him from the foundation of the world.....predestination is based on His foreknowledge.

This a messy business.
If God in his foreknowledge knew that the vast majority would reject or never have the opportunity to respond,
why would He be satisfied with a plan (in His foreknowledge) that led to the destruction of countless billions?
Is God in the punishment business, or the restoration business?

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
Did God really do everything He could to save all of humankind before physical death?

Depends how you look on that, here is a puzzle for you, a sinner stands before the great white throne, he says : Dear God, I now see it, I regret my sins and I need Christ, I repent, please have mercy on me. The vast majority believes God will say no, but how do we know? It's what God always wanted, sinners who repent and follow Christ.

Great question.
Some say that there is no "second chance".
I say, nothing is left to chance.
Especially for those who never had a "first chance".

 

[ProDeo]

St. SteVen said:
Did God really do everything He could to save all of humankind before physical death?

Great question.
Some say that there is no "second chance".
I say, nothing is left to chance.
Especially for those who never had a "first chance".

Suppose the story continues as follows - A sinner stands before the great white throne, he says : Dear God, I now see it, I regret my sins and I need Christ, I repent, please have mercy on me. And God says No, you had your chance. In panic the sinner says, but Lord, you are full of mercy, you are righteous, but I never had the same chance as Adam & Eve, please put me in your lovely garden and I promise not to eat from the forbidden tree, I will not sin against you.

Philosophy only.

 

[St. SteVen]

Suppose the story continues as follows - A sinner stands before the great white throne, he says : Dear God, I now see it, I regret my sins and I need Christ, I repent, please have mercy on me. And God says No, you had your chance. In panic the sinner says, but Lord, you are full of mercy, you are righteous, but I never had the same chance as Adam & Eve, please put me in your lovely garden and I promise not to eat from the forbidden tree, I will not sin against you.

Exactly.
Is God in the restoration business, or the punishment business?

 

[ProDeo]

Exactly.
Is God in the restoration business, or the punishment business?

The former of course by default, the message of the Gospel is reconciliation.