The "watch rapture view"

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Douggg

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In Rev 12 we are shown the past, which goes forward in time up to just before the trib starts. The 3rd woe/7th trump is no where in Rev 12. The 6th trump is mentioned but is also not in Rev 12. Someone "saying" the word WOE is not a woe trump.
I agree that Revelation 12:1-5 is vision of what took place in the past - of Satan attempting to kill Jesus as soon as he was born.

Revelation 12:6-17 covers the end times seven years. We agree, right ?

The word "third" does not appear in Revelation 12. But "woe to the inhabiters of the earth" does. Not simply the word woe by itself, but "woe to the inhabiters of the earth"

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Looking at the text itself of Revelation 12:7-9, what signals Michael and his angels to make war against Satan and his angels to cast them out of the second heaven ?

There is no stated signal directly found in the text. Thus, it must be presumed that the sounding the seventh trumpet signals Michael and his angels to take action.
 

ewq1938

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John in Revelation 11:14 is speaking to the readers of Revelation. Like you and I. John is saying that we, the readers of Revelation, are going to soon find out what the third woe to the inhabiters of the earth will be - if we keep reading.

Just one verse more is where the 7th trump/3rd woe takes place, not in any part of Rev 12.

None of the woe trumps ever have anyone say the word "woe".

You have the word woe being said in Rev 12 and think that is a woe trump but you are wrong. After the 4th trump the word woe is said 3 times but that does not mean any of the woe trumps have sounded.
 

ewq1938

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I agree that Revelation 12:1-5 is vision of what took place in the past - of Satan attempting to kill Jesus as soon as he was born.

Revelation 12:6-17 covers the end times seven years. We agree, right ?

No. The trib doesn't even start in Rev 12. It starts in Rev 13 and the chp s are chronological.


The word "third" does not appear in Revelation 12. But "woe to the inhabiters of the earth" does. Not simply the word woe by itself, but "woe to the inhabiters of the earth"


Not one of the woe trumps have anyone saying the word woe at all.


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Looking at the text itself of Revelation 12:7-9, what signals Michael and his angels to make war against Satan and his angels to cast them out of the second heaven ?

There is no stated signal directly found in the text. Thus, it must be presumed that the sounding the seventh trumpet signals Michael and his angels to take action.

That does not happen at the 7th trump. The war in heaven happens long before that trump.
 

Douggg

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No. The trib doesn't even start in Rev 12. It starts in Rev 13 and the chp s are chronological.
Revelation 13 has only 42 months in it.

Also, I did not say trib nor tribulation, but end times 7 years.

Does Revelation 12:6-17 span the end times 7 years ?
 

TribulationSigns

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Revelation 13 has only 42 months in it.

When you mention the 42 months in Revelation 13, the real question is: are we meant to understand that number literally, or symbolically?

Revelation is apocalyptic literature, filled with signs and symbolic numbers — beasts, horns, lampstands, seals, and so on (Rev 1:1 says it was “signified,” meaning communicated through signs). The 42 months (Rev 13:5) corresponds to the same period described elsewhere as 1,260 days (Rev 12:6) and “a time, times, and half a time” (Rev 12:14), language that comes from Daniel 7:25 and 12:7.

So the issue is not whether 42 months appears in the text — it does. The issue is how we interpret it. If the book is symbolic in structure, then the time periods may also function symbolically, representing a limited period of oppression rather than a strict, literal three-and-a-half-year countdown.

That’s a major difference in interpretation. Simply pointing to “42 months” does not automatically establish a literal seven-year end-times framework. The question is: what kind of literature are we reading, and how does Scripture itself use these time expressions?


Also, I did not say trib nor tribulation, but end times 7 years.

There is no verse in Scripture that clearly teaches a future, literal seven-year end-times period. The idea of a seven-year tribulation is not stated plainly in the Bible — it is inferred from your private interpretation of Daniel 9:24–27, specifically the “one week” of verse 27.

But the text itself does not say that this 70th week is separated from the first sixty-nine by thousands of years, nor does it call it “the end times seven years.” That gap is an assumption built into certain premillennial systems — not something the passage explicitly states.

In fact, I teach that Daniel 9:27 as fulfilled in Christ’s first coming, where He confirmed the covenant and caused sacrifice and offering to cease through His atoning work (cf. Hebrews 10:10–14).

When the New Testament speaks about tribulation, it describes it as something believers experience throughout this present age, not as a future seven-year block. Jesus said, “In the world ye shall have tribulation” (John 16:33). Paul likewise taught that “we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God” (Acts 14:22).

So the burden of proof is this: where does Scripture clearly state a future seven-year end-times period? The concept comes from a specific premillennial framework and a particular reading of Daniel, like yours — not from a direct, explicit biblical statement.


Does Revelation 12:6-17 span the end times 7 years ?

Of...course...not.
 

Douggg

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You have the word woe being said in Rev 12 and think that is a woe trump but you are wrong
Not just the word "woe" in Revelation 12:12, but "woe to the inhabiters of the earth".

Revelation 8:13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!
 

Douggg

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When you mention the 42 months in Revelation 13, the real question is: are we meant to understand that number literally, or symbolically?
Literally 42 months. There is one place in Revelation that is figurative - the "one hour", in Revelation 17:12.

Revelation 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

Figurative in that case to rule with the beast 42 months, as the ten horns have their crowns in Revelation 13:1. The 42 months are in Revelation 13:5.


There is no verse in Scripture that clearly teaches a future, literal seven-year end-times period.
The 7 years in Ezekiel 39:9 following the Gog/Magog event coincide with the 7 years of Daniel 9:27. Those 7 years are also on the table of time-frames that fit within the 7years.

table of time frames.jpg
 

TribulationSigns

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Not just the word "woe" in Revelation 12:12, but "woe to the inhabiters of the earth".

Revelation 8:13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!

But do you understand chapter 8 and compare it with chapter 9? For example:

Revelation 9:1-4
1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

This smoke from the bottomless pit is the reason the sun (Christ) and the moon (church) no longer give their light of gospel for Salvation. This is a spiritual picture of the effects of the false gospels being preached in the church, the only holy place on this side of the Cross! So the day of the Lord must begin IN THE CHURCH either at this point, or perhaps even before this point, because in Revelation 8 we find another spiritual picture which begins the process of covering the light of the gospel message:

Revelation 8:6-13

6 And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.
7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.
8 And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;
9 And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.
10 And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;
11 And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.
12 And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.
13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!

Woe! Woe! Woe!
This is part of the Day of the Lord. It demonstrates that once all of God’s elect are sealed (Revelation 7:1–4), God’s judgment begins upon His unfaithful church — a judgment that also affects the entire world of those not yet sealed. The day of salvation is over for them.

This is a true woe and torment for the inhabitants of the earth. Anyone seeking salvation or desiring to be saved during this time will not find it (Revelation 9:5–9). The judgment is gradual; it is not poured out in a single day but unfolds over many days — representing the symbolic “hour” of judgment on the whore.


We will not simply wake up one day to find our churches completely infiltrated with wormwood — the false gospel. The process takes time. How long? The Bible does not specify. However, God says that we will “know” when the season comes, if, and only if, we are granted spiritual understanding, allowing us to discern what the signs in the sun, moon, and stars truly signify.

For example:

Mat 24:29-30
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

This verse is not saying that when Jesus Christ returns the entire earth will be in literal physical darkness. Rather, it speaks of a sign in the sun, moon, and stars which REPRESENTS the church being under judgment of God. At the completion of the “hour” of judgment upon the whore, Christ will appear. That's it!

Life will still seem normal to many people. They will be going to work, getting married, playing sports, and continuing daily routines under the light of the sun. There will not be some obvious global blackout that forces everyone to recognize the moment. Instead, Christ will come unexpectedly — because people are not watching! They do NOT discern the spiritual condition of the church, nor do they realize that judgment has already begun. That is the point of what Christ talked about!

His coming will catch them by surprise, not because there were no signs, but because they failed to pay attention to them and know that Christ's coming is near! Selah!
 
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TribulationSigns

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Literally 42 months. There is one place in Revelation that is figurative - the "one hour", in Revelation 17:12.

Revelation 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

Figurative in that case to rule with the beast 42 months, as the ten horns have their crowns in Revelation 13:1. The 42 months are in Revelation 13:5.

The 7 years in Ezekiel 39:9 following the Gog/Magog event coincide with the 7 years of Daniel 9:27.

Incorrect. God did not say this, nor did He indicate a seven-year period. You are privately interpreting the text as “seven years” to fit your own false doctrine. This teaching comes from the premillennialist movement and its invented “seven-year tribulation” idea — a human addition, not biblical truth. You are aligning yourself with a false movement, not Scripture.

Moreover, I can see that you have NO clues on what does the ten horns represent. And how they receive a crown. And what kingdom they will receive power to rule over it along with the beast? Who is the beast? Hint: it is not your one man fantasy.

Frankly, you are too busy playing with numbers puzzles without having a spiritual discernment in Daniel and Revelation anyway.


Those 7 years are also on the table of time-frames that fit within the 7years.

More speculations without biblical support where God actually said 7 literal years.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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You are making the wrong conclusion.
No, you are making the wrong conclusion.

The seventh trumpet sounding takes place during the great tribulation, correct ?
Wrong. Not during the great tribulation. It signals the end of great tribulation and that it is then the time of God's final wrath to come down and the time for believers to be rewarded and the dead to be judged. The dead are judged after the thousand years and Satan's little season, not before, so that means the seventh trumpet will sound after the thousand years and at the end of Satan's little season.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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Literally 42 months. There is one place in Revelation that is figurative - the "one hour", in Revelation 17:12.

Revelation 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

Figurative in that case to rule with the beast 42 months, as the ten horns have their crowns in Revelation 13:1. The 42 months are in Revelation 13:5.
This is the typical view of futurists. That all the time periods in Revelation are literal except for the "one hour" in Revelation 17:12. This shows how inconsistent futurists are when interpreting the book of Revelation. There is no basis for thinking just one of the time periods mentioned in Revelation is figurative and the rest literal. To be consistent, you should either see all of the time periods as being figurative or all literal. I believe they are all figurative. I'm consistent like that, unlike you.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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Not just the word "woe" in Revelation 12:12, but "woe to the inhabiters of the earth".

Revelation 8:13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!
This means nothing. Revelation 12:12 is not related to any of the last 3 trumpets/woes. Satan was cast out of heaven (the third heaven) long ago already because it meant that he could no longer accuse believers before God in the third heaven any longer. And we know from Romans 8:31-33 that no one can make any accusation against God's elect/chosen.

The fifth trumpet is the first woe, the sixth trumpet is the second woe and the seventh trumpet is the third woe. The descriptions of events related to the trumpets are found in Revelation 9:1-12 (5th trumpet/1st woe), Revelation 9:13-21 (6th trumpet/2nd woe) and Revelation 11:15-18 (7th trumpet/3rd woe). There is no basis whatsoever for trying to include Revelation 12:12 as part of the description of any of the last 3 trumpets/woes just because it says "woe to the inhabitants of the earth". If we tried to directly relate every verse that contained a similar phrase, we would end up with a lot of contradictions. Verses containing similar phrases are not necessarily directly related. Sometimes they are and sometimes they're not. It depends on the context. In this case, Revelation 12:12 has no relation at all to any of the last 3 trumpets/woes.
 

Davy

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Jesus did not reveal that the rapture will take place after the great tribulation.

MARK... this person brethren in Christ, because that above false statement is AGAINST WHAT LORD JESUS HIMSELF SAID WHEN His coming to gather His saints will be...

Both of the below examples of Lord Jesus' Own Words align perfectly with what Apostle Paul taught about the future coming of Lord Jesus and gathering of His Church...

Matt 24:29-31
29
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV

Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days,
after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
KJV
 
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Douggg

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This means nothing. Revelation 12:12 is not related to any of the last 3 trumpets/woes. Satan was cast out of heaven (the third heaven) long ago already because it meant that he could no longer accuse believers before God in the third heaven any longer.
Satan is an accuser no matter where he is at. It does not say third heaven in Revelation 12:10. When do you think that Satan will be cast down to earth ?

In Revelation 12:7-9, Satan is cast down from the second heaven not third heaven, by Michael and his angels. Satan will then have a time, times, half time left, Revelation 12:14..

In Daniel 12:1, it says Michael will stand up for Daniel's people at a time that there will be a unmatched time of trouble. And it says in Daniel 12:7 that time of trouble will be a time, times, half time..... matching the time, times, half time of Revelation 12:14, that Satan attempts to persecute the people of Israel.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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Looking at the text itself of Revelation 12:7-9, what signals Michael and his angels to make war against Satan and his angels to cast them out of the second heaven ?

There is no stated signal directly found in the text. Thus, it must be presumed that the sounding the seventh trumpet signals Michael and his angels to take action.
You need to stop trying to claim that it's talking about Satan and his angels being cast out of the second heaven. That is complete nonsense. It clearly refers to Satan accusing believers before God in the place that he is cast out of and that was the third heaven, which is where God dwells. Not the second heaven. You really need to stop wasting your time trying to promote ridiculous beliefs like this that no one will ever agree with you about.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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Satan is an accuser no matter where he is at. It does not say third heaven in Revelation 12:10.
Get serious for once, Douggg. It clearly talks about him accusing before God in God's presence. That was the third heaven. He was kicked out of the third heaven and can no longer accuse anyone before God there. This isn't even debatable as far as I'm concerned.

When do you think that Satan will be cast down to earth ?
LOL. Do you never actually read anything I say, Douggg? I have told you several times before that I believe he was cast out long ago when Jesus ascended to the third heaven. There was no longer any place for Satan in the third heaven once Jesus ascended there and the text is clear that him being cast out of the third heaven meant that he could no longer accuse believers before God there.

In Revelation 12:7-9, Satan is cast down from the second heaven not third heaven, by Michael and his angels.
Wrong. Very wrong. You are so very confused.
 

Douggg

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LOL. Do you never actually read anything I say, Douggg? I have told you several times before that I believe he was cast out long ago when Jesus ascended to the third heaven. There was no longer any place for Satan in the third heaven once Jesus ascended there and the text is clear that him being cast out of the third heaven meant that he could no longer accuse believers before God there.
Well, for one thing what you write does not make sense. And you make no timeline charts of events.

So when does the time, times, half time of Revelation 12:14 take place ?
 

TribulationSigns

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You need to stop trying to claim that it's talking about Satan and his angels being cast out of the second heaven. That is complete nonsense. It clearly refers to Satan accusing believers before God in the place that he is cast out of and that was the third heaven, which is where God dwells. Not the second heaven. You really need to stop wasting your time trying to promote ridiculous beliefs like this that no one will ever agree with you about.

Here you and Douggg go again—repeating the same error. This passage is not talking about the "second heaven, “third heaven," etc. These ideas are being forced into the text. The context is about God’s covenant people on earth—His Old Testament congregation, the kingdom of heaven manifested among His people!

Scripture defines heaven in more than one way. Paul speaks of the “third heaven” in 2 Corinthians 12:2, but that is not the subject here. You cannot import Paul’s later vision into a completely different context and claim it fits.

Jesus Himself said, “The kingdom of heaven is at hand” (Matthew 4:17). Was He pointing people to some distant realm beyond the stars? Of course not. He was confronting the Old Testament congregation of Israel in the midst of their present spiritual rebellion.

Christ was announcing the arrival of the New Covenant congregation—the true temple about to be established through His death and resurrection. He came to confirm the covenant (Daniel 9:27) and to bring fulfillment, not to preserve a corrupt Old Testament system that had rejected Him.

The battle was covenantal and spiritual. It was happening among the people of God—the congregation of Israel—which the physical temple represented. That is why Jesus declared, “Destroy THIS temple, and in three days I will raise it up” (John 2:19). He was speaking of His body (John 2:21). The old temple system was passing away; the true Temple was standing before them.

When He said, “the kingdom of heaven is at hand,” He was announcing the imminent transition from Old Covenant to New Covenant—from shadow to substance (Hebrews 8:13). The fall of the temple and the raising of the true Temple in Christ are inseparably connected to the arrival of the kingdom.

The kingdom was not about geography or literal heaven. It was about covenant fulfillment within the congregations. The New Testament congregation—built on Christ, the chief cornerstone—was about to be established. That is what “at hand” meant.

In Revelation 12:7–9, the war in heaven is symbolic of a spiritual conflict—not a literal battle in some distant realm. It represents Christ—our Michael, the Prince (Daniel 12:1)—and His messengers prevailing over the accuser.

Throughout Scripture, Satan is called “the accuser” (Revelation 12:10). Who were the accusers standing against Christ during His earthly ministry? The Pharisees, Scribes, and professed Jewish believers who rejected Him. Jesus said plainly to them, “You are of your father the devil” (John 8:44). Their opposition revealed the spirit behind their accusations. Selah!

When Jesus declared, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven” (Luke 10:18), He was not giving a lesson about the architecture of the third heaven. He was describing the collapse of Satan’s covenantal position of accusation. The “heaven” in view represents the ruling authority within the Old Covenant order—the sphere where the accuser operated against God’s people.


With Christ’s victory, that authority was being stripped away (ie. the kingdom was taken from you...). The Old Testament congregation, corrupted by unbelief, was falling under judgment, while Christ’s authority and kingdom were being established through the New Testament congregation. The accuser was cast down, and Christ has established His Kingdom through the Church, and Salvation has come through the preaching of the Gospel.


This is about redemptive history, not celestial geography. The fall of Satan is tied to the triumph of Christ and the transition from Old Covenant to New Covenant—not to some distant “third heaven” speculation. Or the "second heaven."

The real conflict was between Christ (the true Prince) and the corrupt religious leadership—Pharisees, scribes, and professed believers operating in the spirit of Satan (see John 8:44). The kingdom was present among them.

Stop reading later theological assumptions into the text. Let Scripture interpret Scripture within its own covenantal and historical context.
 

covenantee

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That is why Jesus declared, “Destroy THIS temple, and in three days I will raise it up” (John 2:19). He was speaking of His body (John 2:21).
Obviously it is speaking of His Body here as well: :laughing:

Matthew 21:12
And Jesus went into his body, and cast out all them that sold and bought in his body, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves,
 

TribulationSigns

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Obviously it is speaking of His Body here as well: :laughing:

Matthew 21:12
And Jesus went into his body, and cast out all them that sold and bought in his body, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves,

As unusual, you lacks understanding as this looks like you completely missed the point. :laughing:

‘The temple of His body’ isn’t some interchangeable phrase you can play with—it’s Christ Himself and His congregation. When Jesus went into the temple in Matthew 21, He wasn’t just wandering in His ‘body.’ He was executing judgment on the Jews who had turned God’s house into a den of abominations. Maybe read John 2:19–21 again before trying to rewrite theology.