THE FAKE KJV ONLY ARGUMENT

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Davy

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There is propaganda pushed today against those who rely on the 1611 King James Bible instead of the more modern English Bible translations like the ASV, RSV, ESV, NIV, NKJV, NLV, etc.

The school of Textual Criticism does not respect the 1611 KJV because of its translation from the Greek Textus Receptus that Erasmus did in the 1500's using Traditional Greek New Testament texts. 19th century British Bible scholars Wescott and Hort, in their personal letters to each other which are available, specifically stated they hated the Textus Receptus, and thus its translation used for the 1611 King James Bible.

See the following link for a scholarly documented presentation of more information on that propaganda by the opponents of the 1611 King James Bible translation...

 

HealthyShape

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And your source about such topic is... youtube? A channel where nobody knows who is behind it and which hosts also videos of Kent Hovind, some aliens nonsense etc.?

That does not seem legit.
 
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SavedInHim

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No one uses Westcott and Hort anymore, I don't know why people always bring them up.
 

HealthyShape

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No one uses Westcott and Hort anymore, I don't know why people always bring them up.
That is how cults work, I guess. If they worked with the correct information and understood the complexity of the issue, they would not be in the cult, they would be normal mainstream scholars.

Cults need very simple black&white narratives, not facts. Strong emotional language (love, hate) and some general feeling of the conspiracy about the standard scholarship ("propaganda against the best and only correct KJV")
 
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Davy

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BRETHREN IN CHRIST:

This matter is very simple. It is about a false attack upon the 1611 King James Bible, and in particular against the Greek Textus Receptus (Received Text) that was used for the New Testament, and came from the Traditional Greek texts, or Majority texts, which make up the majority of Greek New Testament manuscripts. A lot of these manuscripts are from Antioch, where those in Christ were first called Christians (Acts 11:26).

The New King James Version Bible is still 'different'... than the original 1611 KJV in the New Testament. Influence of the scholars of Textual Criticism just couldn't stand leaving it alone, as the Preface of the NKJV reveals it contains additional... readings from 'different'... Greek texts which the 1611 KJV translators did not use.

The following is from the Preface of the New King James Version Bible, as presented at blueletterbible.org.

The King James New Testament was based on the traditional text of the Greek-speaking churches, first published in 1516, and later called the Textus Receptus or Received Text. Although based on the relatively few available manuscripts, these were representative of many more which existed at the time but only became known later. In the late nineteenth century, B. Westcott and F. Hort taught that this text had been officially edited by the fourth-century church, but a total lack of historical evidence for this event has forced a revision of the theory. It is now widely held that the Byzantine Text that largely supports the Textus Receptus has as much right as the Alexandrian or any other tradition to be weighed in determining the text of the New Testament.
Since the 1880s most contemporary translations of the New Testament have relied upon a relatively few manuscripts discovered chiefly in the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries. Such translations depend primarily on two manuscripts, Codex Vaticanus and Codex Sinaiticus, because of their greater age. The Greek text obtained by using these sources and the related papyri (our most ancient manuscripts) is known as the Alexandrian Text. However, some scholars have grounds for doubting the faithfulness of Vaticanus and Sinaiticus, since they often disagree with one another, and Sinaiticus exhibits excessive omission.


Wescott and Hort in 1881 released their Greek New Testament revision for the revision committee of English scholars, handing each scholar in secret a copy of their personal Greek revision. 19th century British Bible scholar Dean John W. Burgon studied Wescott and Hort's revision and balked at their revised text, claiming they had actually created a 'new'... Greek NT text.

This revision committee came about as a result of the discovery of the Codex Sinaiticus in 1859 by Tischendorf. In that same era the Vatican's Greek Bible based on Codex Vaticanus, was published.


The NKJV Preface goes on to explain about new Footnotes it contains, revealing the Greek texts used in the translation for the NKJV New Testament...

"Where significant variations occur in the New Testament Greek manuscripts, textual notes are classified as follows:
  1. NU-Text — There variations from the traditional text generally represent the Alexandrian or Egyptian type of text described previously in "The New Testament Text." They are found in the Critical Text published in the twenty-sixth edition of the Nestle-Aland Greek New Testament (N) and in the United Bible Societies’ third edition (U), hence the acronym, "NU-Text."
  2. M-Text — This symbol indicates points of variation in the Majority Text from the traditional text, as also previously discussed in "The New Testament Text." It should be noted that M stands for whatever reading is printed in the published Greek New Testament According to the Majority Text, whether supported by overwhelming, strong, or only a divided majority textual tradition."

Do you see that NU-Text symbol above? That is the Critical Text by Nestle-Aland from the United Bible Societies. It is a Greek text taken from Codex Vaticanus and Codex Sinaticus, and Codex Alexandrinus. These were the very same Greek NT texts which Wescott and Hort used for their Greek NT revision of 1881. So basically, the NKJV Bible is NOW using those later discovered corrupt... Greek texts which many Bible scholars have shown doubt about. The New King James Version Bible was released in 1982.

What caused me to look into this matter many years ago was when I was invited to do a Bible study at some friend's house, and they were using the NKJV Bible while I was using and reading the 1611 KJV Bible. When I was baptized in the early 1990's, I was handed a NKJV Bible by my pastor, but I never bothered to check it out, as I stayed in the 1611 KJV. During the Bible study, when I would read a passage from the KJV New Testament, my friend using a NKJV would make sounds of disgust, and I asked him what the matter was. He said his NKJV Bible does not read anything like what I was reading from the 1611 KJV.

That is when I began to look into the NKJV Bible more, and discovered ADDITIONAL READINGS had been ADDED to the KJV in that NKJV. I see their putting Footnotes in the NKJV to account for their ADDITIONS as their attempt to belay assigning guilt for their having revised... the 1611 KJV which did NOT come from the Codex Vaticanus, nor Codex Sinaiticus, nor Codex Alexandrinus. The 1611 KJV New Testament Greek text was translated from the Textus Receptus taken from the Majority Texts, or Traditional Texts, even as the Preface above states.

What that toying with the 1611 KJV by those of Textual Criticism suggests is that their later modern Bible translations, or revisions, just weren't working well enough, as too many Christians were still using the 1611 KJV Bible instead. So they decided to use a direct attack upon the 1611 KJV with a 'modified' New King James Version that contains readings like their later modern New Testament translations, thus adding corruption to the original KJV New Testament.
 

Adventageous

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And your source about such topic is... youtube? A channel where nobody knows who is behind it and which hosts also videos of Kent Hovind, some aliens nonsense etc.?

That does not seem legit.
The source is not "Youtube". The "source" is simply posted on "youtube", and there is a massive difference in those two things. The authors, etc., of the video material are given in the video. You can also find it here - https://www.adullamfilms.com/ as for instance, "Christian J Pinto", et al.; and "Featured Speakers: Dr. Phil Stringer, Dr. David Brown, David Daniels, Dr. D.A. Waite, Dr. Jack Moorman, Dr. Kirk DiVietro, Dr. H.D. Williams, Dr. Ronald Cooke & Dr. James R. White.", and more here - Product Page

Kent Hovind! I love that guy (even for all his personal faults, like my own) - Internet Archive: Digital Library of Free & Borrowable Texts, Movies, Music & Wayback Machine

I emailed him and his ministry a few times, and even his son Eric Hovind's ministry a few times. I even wrote to him while he was arrested and in jail for fraudulent charges.

His ministry helped me to become a real Christian in the first place, as my own brother handed me a CD rip (badly, poorly CoDec'ed) of several of his seminars and they blew me away and once I verified the info, I bought all his stuff a long time ago, and shared it everywhere, Emule, Kaazaa, Internet Archive, I even burned DVD's etc. His material is not all correct, but it was still like a massive truth bomb in many areas.

Even if the youtube channel owner is an unknown, what does that have to do with the individual material shared by said person. A random person can walk by on the street, hand out a tract on the gospel, and you never know the name of that person, but the material in that tract is accurate. Do I throw it all out, simply because of an unknown participant? That is the fallacy of throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

Legitimacy is evidenced not by your or my a priori bias, but by the facts in evidence presented in said material which may be verified by anyone in documentation, etc.
 

Adventageous

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No one uses Westcott and Hort anymore, I don't know why people always bring them up.
Actually some still rarely do "use Westcott and Hort" in the fringe areas of Biblical scholarship, textual criticism, but never-the-less, irrespective of those persons / individuals, or even groups, it is not so much that the modern majority do not directly use Westcott and Hort, but they indirectly use them as they are still the foundational reason for the modern textual criticism, and modern emended mss acceptance, etc. Some of their 'theories' are openly rejected by such modern scholarship, but others are still very much accepted, such as 'shorter readings are more close to original that longer readings', etc.

Westcott and Hort must always be brought into the discussion, since they are part of the historical narrative when discussing textual criticism, textual formation, textual transmission, and to be shown as fraudsters, hucksters, liars, deceivers, spiritists, closet-clandestine-catholics. If anything, they are to be outed so that others do not fall into such mistakes again.

For instance:


Their foundational works still exist in the modern English 'versions' indirectly, and some of their practices still exists among modern textual critics, criticism persons.
 
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HealthyShape

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The source is not "Youtube". The "source" is simply posted on "youtube", and there is a massive difference in those two things. The authors, etc., of the video material are given in the video. You can also find it here - https://www.adullamfilms.com/ as for instance, "Christian J Pinto", et al.; and "Featured Speakers: Dr. Phil Stringer, Dr. David Brown, David Daniels, Dr. D.A. Waite, Dr. Jack Moorman, Dr. Kirk DiVietro, Dr. H.D. Williams, Dr. Ronald Cooke & Dr. James R. White.", and more here - Product Page

Kent Hovind! I love that guy (even for all his personal faults, like my own) - Internet Archive: Digital Library of Free & Borrowable Texts, Movies, Music & Wayback Machine

I emailed him and his ministry a few times, and even his son Eric Hovind's ministry a few times. I even wrote to him while he was arrested and in jail for fraudulent charges.

His ministry helped me to become a real Christian in the first place, as my own brother handed me a CD rip (badly, poorly CoDec'ed) of several of his seminars and they blew me away and once I verified the info, I bought all his stuff a long time ago, and shared it everywhere, Emule, Kaazaa, Internet Archive, I even burned DVD's etc. His material is not all correct, but it was still like a massive truth bomb in many areas.

Even if the youtube channel owner is an unknown, what does that have to do with the individual material shared by said person. A random person can walk by on the street, hand out a tract on the gospel, and you never know the name of that person, but the material in that tract is accurate. Do I throw it all out, simply because of an unknown participant? That is the fallacy of throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

Legitimacy is evidenced not by your or my a priori bias, but by the facts in evidence presented in said material which may be verified by anyone in documentation, etc.
If you believe that people rode on dinosaurs, then there is hardly anything objective or scientific we can discuss together.

Such ignorance and irrationality will show also in the KJV Onlyism, Flat Earthism and similar, so I am not surprised that all those groups mix with each other.
 

HealthyShape

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ASV, RSV, ESV, NIV, NKJV, NLV (the translations mentioned in the OP) are not based on the Westcot-Hort texts. So the youtube videos (yes, again, the main source of this ignorance) about them are just distractions.

You would need to criticize mainly the Nestlé Aland, ideally the 27th version. And to show why is the Textus Receptus from the 16th century a scholarly better text. The NKJV is even based on the Textus Receptus, it does not belong to the list at all.
 
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doctrox

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No one uses Westcott and Hort anymore, I don't know why people always bring them up.
Rather, all modern translations use W-H as its basis. Two spiritualists, Westcott and Hort, changed the traditional Greek text in well over eight thousand places using the Vaticanus manuscript and other corrupt texts. In 1881, this 1% minority text type supplanted the Majority Text with its almost two millennia standing. All modern versions are their product.

Actually some still rarely do "use Westcott and Hort" in the fringe areas of Biblical scholarship, textual criticism...
The reality is far worse.

Westcott and Hort were mystics, spiritualists, and necromancers. They admitted they were heretics.

All new versions (and the ‘new’ church they are producing) owe their occult bend to their underlying Greek text, a novelty produced in the 1880’s by Brooke Foss Westcott, a London Spiritualist, and his cohort, Fenton John Anthony Hort. Secular historians and numerous occult books see Westcott as ‘the Father’ of the current channeling phenomenon, a major source of the ‘doctrines of devils’ driving the New Age movement.

Westcott and Hort wrote the Greek text underlying the new versions.

Westcott and Hort must always be brought into the discussion, since they are part of the historical narrative when discussing textual criticism, textual formation, textual transmission, and to be shown as fraudsters, hucksters, liars, deceivers, spiritists, closet-clandestine-catholics. If anything, they are to be outed so that others do not fall into such mistakes again.
Indeed.

Such ignorance and irrationality will show also in the KJV Onlyism, Flat Earthism and similar, so I am not surprised that all those groups mix with each other.
Happy to say that such attempts to "kitchen sink" the issue will not succeed.

ASV, RSV, ESV, NIV, NKJV, NLV (the translations mentioned in the OP) are not based on the Westcot-Hort texts.
Rather, all modern translations are based on the Westcott-Hort texts. All modern versions, including your NIV, are their product.

It takes much time, research and effort to bring the truth to bear. But I will do it now for this important OP. What you may then do with the truth of the matter will be up to you; but be aware, as you are now accountable.

The body of standard Christian reference works affirm Westcott and Hort’s pivotal and powerful role in this war of words. Scanning the major works will document the singularity and paramountcy of their role.

The following is but a small sampling of the total documentation available on the subject, lest I be here all night.

John Kohlenberger, spokesperson for Zondervan (publisher of the NASB, Living Bible, Amplified Bible, NIV, and RSV), is author of a Hebrew/NIV Interlinear, as well as, Words About the Word: A Guide to Choosing and Using Your Bible. He discloses:

Westcott and Hort...all subsequent versions from the Revised Version (1881) to those of the present...have adopted their basic approach...[and] accepted the Westcott and Hort [Greek] text.1

He goes on to salute Westcott’s, A General Survey of the History of the Canon of the New Testament, saying, “This century old classic remains a standard.2 Christians may not return the salute, but ask why the work of esoterics are “standards” and “classics” for the body of Christ.

...continued...
 
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doctrox

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Baker Book House, publisher of half-a-dozen modern translations, also prints a bible selection guide entitled, The King James Version Debate. Author D. A. Carson admits:

[T]he theories of Westcott and Hort...[are] almost universally accepted today...It is on this basis that Bible translators since 1881 have, as compared with the King James Version, left out some things and added a few others. Subsequent textual critical work accepted the theories of Westcott and Hort. The vast majority of evangelical scholars...hold that the basic textual theories of Westcott and Hort were right and the church stands greatly in their debt.3

The error of their textual theories and their recent abandonment by many scholars, in spite of Carson’s last comment, can be discussed in another thread. In spite of this increasing elbowroom, their revised Greek text is still almost a mirror image of that used to translate the NIV, NASB, and all other new versions. Dr. E. F. Hills, Princeton and Harvard scholar, impresses, the “New International Version...follows the critical Westcott and Hort text.”4

Philip W. Comfort’s recent Early Manuscripts and Modern Translations of the New Testament concedes:

But textual critics have not been able to advance beyond Hort in formalizing a theory...this had troubled certain textual scholars.5

Even abbreviated histories of the canon, in reference works like Halley’s Bible Handbook and Young’s Concordance observe,

For the English speaking world the work of B. F. Westcott has proved of abiding worth.6

The New Testament Westcott and Hort Greek texts, which, in the main, are the exact original Bible words...7

The textual theories of W-H underlies virtually all subsequent work in NT textual criticism.8

Scholarly books, articles and critical editions of the Greek New Testament are slowly abandoning the readings of Westcott and Hort in their ‘Newest’ Greek texts. Yet the pews are piled high with the W-H offerings like the NIV, NASB and Living Bible.

Wilbur N. Pickering, author of The Identity of the New Testament Text, reveals:

The dead hand of Fenton John Anthony Hort lies heavy upon us. (Colwell) The two most popular manual editions of the Greek text today, Nestle’s-Aland and U.B.S. (United Bible Society) really vary little from the W-H text. Why is this? Westcott and Hort are generally credited with having furnished the death blow [to the KJV and the Greek text which was used for the previous 1880 years]. Subsequent scholarship has tended to recognize Hort’s mistake. The W-H critical theory is erroneous at every point. Our conclusions concerning the theory apply also to any Greek text constructed on the basis of it [Nestle’s-Aland UBS, etc.], as well as those versions based on such texts [NIV, NASB, Good News for Modern Man, NEB, L.B. etc.].9

H. C. Hoskier’s A Full Account and Collation of the Greek Cursive Codex Evangelism 604 ((London: David Nutt, 1890), Introduction, pp. cxv-cxvi) and Codex B and Its Allies -- A Study and Indictment (2 vols. London: Bernard Quaritch Ltd., 1914) notes:

The text printed by Westcott and Hort has been accepted as ‘the true text’, and grammars, works on the synoptic problem, works on higher criticism, and others have been grounded on this text...These foundations must be demolished.

Alfred Martin (former Vice President of Moody Bible Institute in Chicago) says:

[M]any people, even today, who have no idea what the Westcott-Hort theory is...accept the labors of those two scholars without question...an amusing and amazing spectacle presents itself: many of the textbooks, books of bible interpretation, innumerable secondary works go on repeating the Westcott and Hort dicta although the foundations have been seriously shaken, even in the opinion of former Hortians.

The Westcott and Hort “new” Greek text used to translate the NIV, NASB and other modern versions was an edition drastically altered by a Spiritualist (one who seeks contact with the dead through seances), who believed he was in the “new age.” (Arthur Westcott, The Life and Letters of Brooke Foss Westcott, Vol. II (London: Macmillan and Co., Limited, 1903), p. 252.)

Westcott and Hort were New Age necromancers, spiritualists, and admitted heretics.

How certainly I should have been proclaimed heretic! - Life and Letters of Brooke Foss Westcott, page 233.


Footnotes:

1. John R. Kohlenberger, Words About the Word (Grand Rapids, Michigan: Zondervan Publishing House, 1987), p. 42.
2. Words About the Word, p. 34.
3. D. A. Carson, The King James Version Debate (Grand Rapids, Michigan: Baker Book House, 1979), pp. 41, 75.
4. Edward F. Hills, The King James Version Defended (Des Moines, Iowa: The Christian Research Press, 1979), p. 229.
5. Philip W. Comfort, Early Manuscripts and Modern Translations of the New Testament (Wheaton, Illinois: Tyndale House Publishing, Inc., 1990), p. 21.
6. Robert Young, Analytical Concordance of the Bible (Grand Rapids, Michigan: Wm. B. Erdmans Publishing Company, 1970), p. 18.
7. Henry H. Halley, Halley’s Bible Handbook (Grand Rapids, Michigan: Zondervan Publishing House, 1965), p. 747.
8. J. H. Greenlee, Introduction to New Testament Textual Criticism (Grand Rapids, Michigan: Wm. B. Erdmanns Publishing Company, 1964), p. 78.
9. Wilbur N. Pickering, The Identity of the New Testament Text (Nashville, Tenn.: Thomas Nelson Publishers, 1980), pp. 38., 42, 96, 90.
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doctrox

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This is false. The modern translations I read have translation notes explaining how they go back to the original (or oldest available) manuscripts.
"Notes" are not equivalent to the primary (or even secondary) documentation I provided above.

FYI, if you bother to look closer at your copyrighted version, you can find a second witness to the documentation posted above. Further, the "original (or oldest available) manuscripts" comment is a non sequitur.
 
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Wrangler

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"Notes" are not equivalent to the primary (or even secondary) documentation I provided above.

FYI, if you bother to look closer at your copyrighted version, you can find a second witness to the documentation posted above. Further, the "original (or oldest available) manuscripts" comment is a non sequitur.
Further, the "original (or oldest available) manuscripts" comment is a non sequitur. You’re wacked!
 

SavedInHim

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Erasmus was a textual critic. The textus receptus is an eclectic document, partly based on the Latin Vulgate (look out!). I think it's fantastic we have all the different manuscripts and fragments we have today, and Bibles that include footnotes and variant readings. Erasmus would've love it too!
 

Davy

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Erasmus was a textual critic. The textus receptus is an eclectic document, partly based on the Latin Vulgate (look out!). I think it's fantastic we have all the different manuscripts and fragments we have today, and Bibles that include footnotes and variant readings. Erasmus would've love it too!
:jest: