Why doesn't your "whole Bible view" include Universalism?

[shepherdsword]

Like what exactly?
What sort of cruel and sadistic behavior do I accuse God of?

You claim that eternal punishment is cruel and sadistic

Jesus taught us that it is godly behavior to love our enemies.
What should He do with His?

Matthew 5:43-48 NIV
“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor[a] and hate your enemy.’
44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,
45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven.
He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good,
and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.
46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get?
Are not even the tax collectors doing that?
47 And if you greet only your own people,
what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that?
48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Jesus was speaking in context of this temporal life. It doesn't limit him to not punishing the wicked.

 

[Lizbeth]

The cruel and sadistic behavior the church accuses God of are lower, not higher, than even our ways.

Cruel and sadistic is your accusation. Life has an end for most. It is temporal. That is not cruel and sadistic....it is simply reality....the consequences/wages of sin....which people do to themselves.

And I want to add...........just look around you at this world and the cruel things that happen in it.........all of which the Lord likewise ALLOWS on His watch. Need to wake up and smell the coffee.

 

[St. SteVen]

What I do not do...is invent some doctrine of demons that claims everyone will ultimately be saved.

I have already informed you that the doctrine of Universalism dates back to the early church.

"The Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge" by Schaff-Herzog, 1908, volume 12, page 96 German theologian- Philip Schaff, Editor: "In the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were six theological schools, of which four (Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa, or Nisibis) were Universalist, one (Ephesus) accepted conditional immortality; one (Carthage or Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked. Other theological schools are mentioned as founded by Universalists, but their actual doctrine on this subject is not known."

The main Patristic supporters of the apokatastasis theory, such as Bardaisan, Clement, Origin, Didymus, St. Anthony, St. Pamphilus Martyr, Methodius, St. Macrina, St. Gregory of Nyssa (and probably the two other Cappadocians), St. Evagrius Ponticus, Diodore of Tarsus, Theodore of Mopsuestia, St. John of Jerusalem, Rufinus, St. Jerome and St. Augustine (at least initially) … Cassian, St. Issac of Nineveh, St. John of Dalyatha, Ps. Dionysius the Areopagite, probably St. Maximus the Confessor, up to John the Scot Eriugena, and many others, grounded their Christian doctrine of apokatastasis first of all in the Bible.
— Ramelli, Christian Doctrine, 11.

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
Like what exactly?
What sort of cruel and sadistic behavior do I accuse God of?

You claim that eternal punishment is cruel and sadistic

How would you describe it?

 

[shepherdsword]

I have already informed you that the doctrine Universalism dates back to the early church.

Paul and Peter warned the early church that false teachers and false doctrine would arise. Your argument is a classic fallacy that the RCC commonly makes "argumentum ad antiquitatem"

 

[shepherdsword]

St. SteVen said:
Like what exactly?
What sort of cruel and sadistic behavior do I accuse God of?

How would you describe it?

I don't presume to judge it.

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
The cruel and sadistic behavior the church accuses God of are lower, not higher, than even our ways.

Cruel and sadistic is your accusation. Life has an end for most. It is temporal. That is not cruel and sadistic....it is simply reality....the consequences/wages of sin....which people do to themselves.

I was addressing those who believe in eternal conscious torment.
Do you view that idea as NOT cruel and sadistic? Pointless.
After ten seconds in that hell, anyone would get the message.
Anything beyond that is...

 

[Beebster]

They aren't a "sacrifice"

Who "every one?"

I see why you are so deceived now. You imagine things people say and force it into what is written.

Yeah, only you're the one claiming that first death is physical.
Being baptized into his death apparently doesn't count to you.

Did Jesus have a physical body after the resurrection?

Lk 24:37-39 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit. And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

Right, you think resurrection is physical.
Oh ye of little faith.
Jesus Christ can appear in any type of body he wishes.
His disciples were still in disbelief.

I see, you cherry pick anything that disagrees with your position and claim it's symbolic. If the judgement is real then the punishment is real.

No, I just understand what the word "signified" means.
You probably glossed over that very first verse because, apparently, you love the physical things of this world.

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
Like what exactly?
What sort of cruel and sadistic behavior do I accuse God of?

How would you describe it?

I don't presume to judge it.

So you prefer to whitewash the whole business?

Souls burning endlessly with no hope of escape.
Nope, that's not cruel and sadistic. Seriously?

 

[St. SteVen]

Paul and Peter warned the early church that false teachers and false doctrine would arise.

Were they part of the church in the east or the church in the west.
Most false doctrines came from the west, the church that canonized and translated our Bible.
The RCC that you glorify.

 

[shepherdsword]

Yeah, only you're the one claiming that first death is physical.
Being baptized into his death apparently doesn't count to you.

Only the saved are baptized into Christ's death

Right, you think resurrection is physical.
Oh ye of little faith.
Jesus Christ can appear in any type of body he wishes.
His disciples were still in disbelief.

He appeared in a physical body just like we will have when we are transformed

No, I just understand what the word "signified" means.
You probably glossed over that very first verse because, apparently, you love the physical things of this world.

You said yourself that the judgement was literal. So stop cherry picking the punishment as symbolic.

 

[amigo de christo]

Cruel and sadistic is your accusation. Life has an end for most. It is temporal. That is not cruel and sadistic....it is simply reality....the consequences/wages of sin....which people do to themselves.

And I want to add...........just look around you at this world and the cruel things that happen in it.........all of which the Lord likewise ALLOWS on His watch. Need to wake up and smell the coffee.

what he need to do is
to walk into his bathroom and stand in front of the mirror .
THEN close his eyes and pray TO GOD and ask , WHO is being decieved .
THEN OPEN his eyes , and i bet the very first image HE sees , IS THE ONE being deceived .

 

[amigo de christo]

Only the saved are baptized into Christ's death

He appeared in a physical body just like we will have when we are transformed

You said yourself that the judgement was literal. So stop cherry picking the punishment as symbolic.

correct only the saved are baptized into Christs death .
He did appear in a new heavenly physical spiritual body , the very same we will have when we too are transformed . The celesital body .
And yes the JUDGMENT is literal . So yes HE sure do need to stop cherry picking .
But this is what men do . they cherry pick and even what they picked has been twisted to support something not true
and it will CONTRADICT other scrips .
The king of the cherry pickers has always done the same
HE too said and used a ve rse but did so to try and cause Christ to TEMPT .
It is written HE shall give his angels charge over thee .................
VERY TRUE .
BUT LOOK how he used it , HE said LEAP OFF that cliff , WHICH IS TO TEMPT GOD .
SO does a universalist do the same .
But so too do many who follow false things . always using scrips but doing so to imply ERROR , To cause Disobediance
To cause one to BELIEVE A LIE .
T hat is what satan has always done . And the greatest of lies is
THE LIE YE DO NOT HAVE TO BELIEVE ON JESUS IN THIS LIFE . that all will evenutally be okay .
AINT what JESUS said .
B ut it is what an universalists will say . But do take note , HOW OFTEN have you heard
this st steven warning all ABOUT THE DIRE NECESSITY OF HAVING TO BELIEVE ON JESUS . a hint . NEVER ONCE .
ALWAYS he rather does the work of universilism . always behaving as though , OH dear ones
THERE IS A SECOND chance . AGAIN , AINT WHAT JESUS SAID .
DO you ever get the feeling that satan simply wants SOULS dest royed JUST LIKE HE WILL b e .
HE DO .
And those who l ove the flesh are gonna heed his message . But as for the sheep
WE GONNA PREACH THE ONLY NAME WHO CAN SAVE with the dire REMINDER , YA BETTER BELEIVE if you desire TO BE SAVED .

 

[Beebster]

There is a big problem in using this as an apologetic for your theory........everyone will be judged by what they do in this life, not by what they may do afterwards.

Everyone will be judge, punished and saved.
The elect now, the rest of the world later.
The last first and the first last.
Never the first anihillated or tormented forever and the last saved.

 

[Beebster]

We need to read the whole context to understand what it means to be salted with fire. It is talking about believers suffering and losing things in this life (chastised as sons) in order to gain eternal life. Better to lose one eye or hand in this life than for the whole body to be thrown into hell fire. There is a difference between being salted with fire as opposed to being engulfed and entirely destroyed by it. Salt signifies preservation.

More figurative language.

Salt does signify purification and so does brimstone.

We need to understand vocabulary.
Everyone means everyone not "everyone standing here listening to me."

Context is important but if you really wish to keep everything in context you'll never understand the word of God.

 

[Beebster]

Everyone will be judged fairly. We don't know how God will handle the judgement of those who have never heard the gospel. All we know is that God will be fair and just

We have a pretty good idea.

The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
But HE THAT KNEW NOT, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more. (Luk 12:46-48)

You folks just keep on denying that Jesus Christ is the Saviour of the world.

Jhn 4:42 And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. (Mat 7:22-23)

 

[St. SteVen]

Context is important but if you really wish to keep everything in context you'll never understand the word of God.

Wow.
That's deep. Thanks.

Some get so hung up on the academic aspect of theology that they entirely miss the spiritual aspect.

 

[Beebster]

WE GONNA PREACH THE ONLY NAME WHO CAN SAVE with the dire REMINDER , YA BETTER BELEIVE if you desire TO BE SAVED .

The only name you believe in is yours because what you are really saying is that Jesus Christ is powerless to save you unless you actually save yourself by believing on him.

Maybe you should read how Christ saved Saul. Saul was in denial and Christ had him believing in a few seconds. That's how good of a Saviour Jesus is.

And by the way, we do believe in Jesus Christ. We believe this:

Jhn 4:42 And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.

You deny that.
He can't save anyone without their approval according to you.

1Jn 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

You don't believe that. You believe the Father sent the son to merely offer salvation and that without the power of man's "free will" Christ will fail.

Those of us who absolutely know that Jesus Christ will save all, believe that we are powerless in his presence.

WE WILL ALL BOW!

 

[Marvelloustime]

correct only the saved are baptized into Christs death .
He did appear in a new heavenly physical spiritual body , the very same we will have when we too are transformed . The celesital body .
And yes the JUDGMENT is literal . So yes HE sure do need to stop cherry picking .
But this is what men do . they cherry pick and even what they picked has been twisted to support something not true
and it will CONTRADICT other scrips .
The king of the cherry pickers has always done the same
HE too said and used a ve rse but did so to try and cause Christ to TEMPT .
It is written HE shall give his angels charge over thee .................
VERY TRUE .
BUT LOOK how he used it , HE said LEAP OFF that cliff , WHICH IS TO TEMPT GOD .
SO does a universalist do the same .
But so too do many who follow false things . always using scrips but doing so to imply ERROR , To cause Disobediance
To cause one to BELIEVE A LIE .
T hat is what satan has always done . And the greatest of lies is
THE LIE YE DO NOT HAVE TO BELIEVE ON JESUS IN THIS LIFE . that all will evenutally be okay .
AINT what JESUS said .
B ut it is what an universalists will say . But do take note , HOW OFTEN have you heard
this st steven warning all ABOUT THE DIRE NECESSITY OF HAVING TO BELIEVE ON JESUS . a hint . NEVER ONCE .
ALWAYS he rather does the work of universilism . always behaving as though , OH dear ones
THERE IS A SECOND chance . AGAIN , AINT WHAT JESUS SAID .
DO you ever get the feeling that satan simply wants SOULS dest royed JUST LIKE HE WILL b e .
HE DO .
And those who l ove the flesh are gonna heed his message . But as for the sheep
WE GONNA PREACH THE ONLY NAME WHO CAN SAVE with the dire REMINDER , YA BETTER BELEIVE if you desire TO BE SAVED .

@amigo de christo

 

[Marvelloustime]

Over the days
over the weeks
over the months
and now over the years ........
WHAT has b een REPLACED .
The answer to that is
GO and behold what JESUS taught
GO and behold the book of acts and see the very dire and grave warnings given
and WHO they preached with the dire reminder of YE NEEDS TO BELEIVE .
and what has replaced it . A fable of , oh in the very end it dont matter
eventually ALL WILL BE WELL .
Kinda odd . THAT AINT what JESUS said
Kinda odd , THAT AINT what the apostels said either
THE TRUE MESSAGE can easily be summed up with
THERE IS A LOVELY LOVELY WONDERFUL PLACE
THERE IS a horrenedous place .
THE FIRST ENTIALS THE ABSOLUTE DIRE NEED TO BLEIEVE ON JESUS to be IN SUCH LOVELY PLACE at ones end .
The other is UNBELIEF . just c ontinue to not believe on HIM ,
KINDA SIMPLE if you ask me .
I dont see st steven , NOR HAVE I EVER ONCE SEEN HIM
even bother to preach the dire necessity to BELIEVE ON JESUS
but i darn sure have seen him preach a fab le which by all means IS UNBELEIF .
You have done v ery well to expose him .
For by grace i have come to the understanding of one simple thing .
ALL have sinned , ALL have fallen far short of the glory of GOD ,
ALL are trapped in bondage and are under death .
BUT THAT GOD did something ABOUT THAT . HE SENT the SON
SO that all who do BELIEVE , let it b e said again , ALL WHO DO BELEIVE BLEIEVE and BELEIVE IN HIM
shall not perish but have EVERLASTING LIFE .
IN fact , may i be so bold as to say , THERE IS NONE WHO IS GOOD BUT GOD
and thus ALL NEED THE SAVOIR , TO BLEIEVE ON THE SAVOIR , WHICH GIVES THE GLORY TO GOD and TO THE SON
IN ORDER TO BE SAVED .
KINDA SIMPLE if ya ask me . And b efore you think you are hearing f rom
a good man who was born good and proper , JUST KNOW I WAS THE WORST OF MANY
and IT TOOK GOD to save and to change my vile wicked heart , to give ME eternal life .
OH YEAH , ITS JESUS PREACHING TIME IN THE BUILDING .
FOR THIS MAN has b een FORGIVEN OF MUCH , and thus LOVETH the ONE WHO SAVED AND FORGAVE HIM .
WE gots problems in the house my friend . Keep on doing the good work my fr iend . but do know
YOU WILL be falsely accused of being a hat er , and who knows what else .

@amigo de christo