The Relationship Between Israel and the Church

[Trekson]

True Israel is - that is us today. We are the spiritual children of Abraham. We are the real Jews. We are the circumcision. We are the ones that are located in Zion today. You need to read the New Testament and see that that is a repeated New Testament truth. Race means nothing today. You need to move into the new covenant and see that the old covenant is gone forever. There’s no racial preference. Jews and Gentiles that reject Christ are of their father the devil. They are under the wrath of God and Antichrist. Jews and Gentiles that accept Christ are of their Heavenly Father. Any other gospel is a false gospel. It is another gospel.

We were grafted into true Israel. Apostate Israel is of their father the devil, antichrist, and under the wrath of God.

NO, we are not "true" Israel, we are "spiritual" Israel. I agree about apostate Israel and they will be judged but God always preserves for Himself a remnant and they will begin the millennial era. Sorry, but your take about OT prophecy is completely wrong and that's why when it comes to understanding prophecy, you're still at the "milk" stage.

 

[WPM]

I haven't seen you post anything proving it wrong either, but if one has to go about symbolizing and spiritualizing the things that God meant to be understood literally, then one just goes down the rabbit hole to a wonderland where everything can mean anything, one makes up.

Show us Scripture, and supporting Scripture, including in Revelation 20, or anywhere else in the Bible, the teaches what you are promoting that "Israel will be the church on earth during the millennial dispensation, while the church of the previous dispensation will be in heaven"?

I will not hold my breath.

 

[WPM]

NO, we are not "true" Israel, we are "spiritual" Israel. I agree about apostate Israel and they will be judged but God always preserves for Himself a remnant and they will begin the millennial era. Sorry, but your take about OT prophecy is completely wrong and that's why when it comes to understanding prophecy, you're still at the "milk" stage.

1. Who are we spiritually joined to?
2. Who are we grafted into?
3. What fold did the NT Church enter into?

 

[Trekson]

The King James Version renders Romans 11:25: “blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.”

It means that a remnant of Israel is saved and the rest are blinded while the fulness of the Gentiles comes in. When is the fulness of the Gentiles come in? When Christ returns. Manifestly, they are not all blinded; a remnant will continue to believe (as they always have). The engrafting isn't restricted to an end-time mass repentance by the whole nation (prior to the Lord's coming) as Dispensationalists seem to imagine (although a sizeable company of Jews may be saved at the end). This reading makes no such suggestion along that line. It is simply speaking of that portion or part of Israel that is not blinded but has been saved by the precious blood of Jesus. They will continue to come to Christ “while” the Gentiles also come through.

All Israel shall be saved once all the saved Gentiles and once all the saved Jews have come through, having entered into the kingdom of God through being born from above.

Dispensationalists interpret Romans 11:25 as if the engrafting of Israelis must occur after the in-coming of the Gentiles. However, the original doesn't say that. It declares, “For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until [Gr. achris hou or while wherein] the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.”

The Greek word achris literally means up to, as far as, until, or while. Palmer Robertson explains: “The phrase rendered ‘until’ (achris hou) is essentially terminative. More particularly, it indicates the terminus ad quem [ending point] … The phrase brings matters ‘up to’ a certain point or ‘until’ a certain goal is reached. It does not itself determine the state of affairs after the termination. The subsequent circumstances can be learned only from the context” (The Israel of God: Yesterday, Today, and Tomorrow).

This text is telling us that not all Israelis are going to be saved. A notable portion of natural ethnic Israel will remain blind while the Gentiles come in, right up until Christ comes. That does not mean that God will not continue to move and save amongst the Jewish people. Romans 9-11 makes clear that there are 2 types of Israeli – the blinded and the elect remnant. That will remain up until Jesus comes. The same applies in every nation.

The same sense is found in Luke 21:24 (a passage that Dispensationalists present as a proof-text for their beliefs), which says, “Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until [Gr. achris hou or while wherein] the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.”

Is there a time coming when Jesus will stop reaching out to the Gentiles as He is today? Only when He comes to rescue us and destroy the wicked and usher in eternity.

This text is simply telling us that ancient Jerusalem has lost her favored place of preeminence as the center-point of worship to the Almighty globally as it once was in the golden years of the Old Testament. Their theocracy was been removed from them. It has been given to the New Testament Church. That will remain so throughout this new covenant period as the nations are brought to Christ. What is more, Jerusalem will never again be free of Gentiles influence. There is no more damning a testimony of that than the prominent and provocative standing of Islam’s Al-Aqsa Mosque that sits on the former site of the Jewish temple.

When I first replied you had a lot of posts that I didn't have time to respond to them on a one at a time basis. The fullness of the gentiles will be complete when the rapture/resurrection will occur which I agree isn't pretrib, but it's not post 70th week either. The fulfillment of the 70th week has to be understood via the 7 main feasts of Israel which were types about the life and return of Christ. The four spring feasts were fulfilled w/ his first advent, the three fall feasts will be fulfilled in the context of His 2nd advent, they are the feast of trumpets, the day of atonement and the feast of Tabernacles. I agree not all of Israel will be saved but the bible teaches 1/3 will be and they have an earthly destiny while the church has a heavenly one. Yes, there will come a time that Jesus temporarily stops reaching out to the gentiles, in this dispensation of grace. The next dispensation, which is when Christ rules and reigns upon the earth (which is all that it means) will still reach out to the gentiles but in a different manner. The rescue part is correct and affirms Lk. 21:28 but it will be before Armageddon. The mosque will be destroyed but where does the bible say that Christ is returning to? The new covenant has begun but it won't be completed until the millennial era. You may be asking what remains? and it is this part, Heb. 8:11-12 - "And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. (this is speaking about Israel to whom the new covenant was given). We were added to the NC just like we were added to the tree. Jerusalem is where Christ will rule the world from in the millennial era. The greatness of Jerusalem has not yet begun.

 

[Trekson]

Show us Scripture, and supporting Scripture, including in Revelation 20, or anywhere else in the Bible, the teaches what you are promoting that "Israel will be the church on earth during the millennial dispensation, while the church of the previous dispensation will be in heaven"?

I will not hold my breath.

Zechariah speaking of the millennial era, 8:23 - "Thus saith the Lord of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you." Was that quick enough?

 

[WPM]

When I first replied you had a lot of posts that I didn't have time to respond to them on a one at a time basis. The fullness of the gentiles will be complete when the rapture/resurrection will occur which I agree isn't pretrib, but it's not post 70th week either. The fulfillment of the 70th week has to be understood via the 7 main feasts of Israel which were types about the life and return of Christ. The four spring feasts were fulfilled w/ his first advent, the three fall feasts will be fulfilled in the context of His 2nd advent, they are the feast of trumpets, the day of atonement and the feast of Tabernacles. I agree not all of Israel will be saved but the bible teaches 1/3 will be and they have an earthly destiny while the church has a heavenly one. Yes, there will come a time that Jesus temporarily stops reaching out to the gentiles, in this dispensation of grace. The next dispensation, which is when Christ rules and reigns upon the earth (which is all that it means) will still reach out to the gentiles but in a different manner. The rescue part is correct and affirms Lk. 21:28 but it will be before Armageddon. The mosque will be destroyed but where does the bible say that Christ is returning to? The new covenant has begun but it won't be completed until the millennial era. You may be asking what remains? and it is this part, Heb. 8:11-12 - "And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. (this is speaking about Israel to whom the new covenant was given). We were added to the NC just like we were added to the tree. Jerusalem is where Christ will rule the world from in the millennial era. The greatness of Jerusalem has not yet begun.

What covenant applies to us Gentiles then? You have the old covenant relating exclusively to the Jews. You have the new covenant relating exclusively to the Jews.

The reality is, the new covenant relates to all men, not just physical Israel.

You are butchering Scripture to support your error.

Jesus said in Mark 14:24, "This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many."

Plainly, it is not just restricted to Jews; it was for the Gentile equally, without it they would have no hope.

The international Church is instructed in 1 Corinthians 11:23-26, "For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me."

If the Gentile has no part in the new covenant why is he told to continually remember it and appreciate it?

Hebrews 13:20-21 declares, "Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen."

Are we believing Gentiles not also the sheep of the Shepherd, along with the believing Jews? Is there not now just one fold of believers (John 10:16)? Are not all the sheep accepted equally without partiality into this covenant grouping to partake of the same heavenly blessings? With your reasoning, you have a divided sheep fold. You have a small minority of sheep - the believing Jews - enjoying the new covenant blessings and the vast majority - the Gentiles - totally excluded? This theory is majorly flawed.

Please consider. If there is no new covenant outside of Christ, then the new covenant is exclusive to the Church, because only the Church is in Christ. If only believers in Christ (the Church of Jesus Christ) are in the new covenant, then only believers in Christ (the Church of Jesus Christ) can fulfil Jeremiah’s prophecy. To conclude that the Jeremiah’s prophecy is fulfilled outside of the Church is to conclude that those who do not believe in Christ (the Church of Jesus Christ) are in the new covenant, which we all know is preposterous.

 

[WPM]

Zechariah speaking of the millennial era, 8:23 - "Thus saith the Lord of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you." Was that quick enough?

Where does he mention the millennium here?

 

[WPM]

This statement "Israel is not the central focus of Scripture, Jesus is" is true but what you're not understanding is that Israel is the ultimate focus of Jesus! The plan for Israel has been delayed, not completed and that is also a fact.

Are you a JW?

 

[covenantee]

I agree with what everything you said, "They" knew what they were writing about but sometimes folks have trouble discerning or understanding what was actually be said. Christ laid the foundation upon which Israel will fulfill the goals given them but he wasn't fulfilling them because they weren't his to fulfill. Who was the passage addressed to? One would think that would answer the question. The problem arises because folks can't see "how" Israel will fulfill them. They haven't looked deep enough yet.

I'm humbled but surprised that you agree. Israel cannot and does not fulfill Daniel 9:24. Only Christ could fulfill the specified requirements, and this He did in the midst of the 70th week (Daniel 9:27) at Calvary.

The 70th week was not postponed. Daniel declared that it was determined.

Its fulfillment by Christ was the message of the historic orthodox Christian Church for more than 1700 years.

 

[Trekson]

C

What covenant applies to us Gentiles then? You have the old covenant relating exclusively to the Jews. You have the new covenant relating exclusively to the Jews.

The reality is, the new covenant relates to all men, not just physical Israel.

You are butchering Scripture to support your error.

Jesus said in Mark 14:24, "This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many."

Plainly, it is not just restricted to Jews; it was for the Gentile equally, without it they would have no hope.

The international Church is instructed in 1 Corinthians 11:23-26, "For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me."

If the Gentile has no part in the new covenant why is he told to continually remember it and appreciate it?

Hebrews 13:20-21 declares, "Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen."

Are we believing Gentiles not also the sheep of the Shepherd, along with the believing Jews? Is there not now just one fold of believers (John 10:16)? Are not all the sheep accepted equally without partiality into this covenant grouping to partake of the same heavenly blessings? With your reasoning, you have a divided sheep fold. You have a small minority of sheep - the believing Jews - enjoying the new covenant blessings and the vast majority - the Gentiles - totally excluded? This theory is majorly flawed.

Please consider. If there is no new covenant outside of Christ, then the new covenant is exclusive to the Church, because only the Church is in Christ. If only believers in Christ (the Church of Jesus Christ) are in the new covenant, then only believers in Christ (the Church of Jesus Christ) can fulfil Jeremiah’s prophecy. To conclude that the Jeremiah’s prophecy is fulfilled outside of the Church is to conclude that those who do not believe in Christ (the Church of Jesus Christ) are in the new covenant, which we all know is preposterous.

C'mon now, don't start saying things I'm not, I never said either covenant was exclusive for the Jews, just that it came to them "first" and that's biblical truth. You do realize it was about 10 yrs. after the resurrection before they started going to the gentiles, right? You wrote this whole section about something never said or implied. Read slower.

 

[Trekson]

nope

 

[Trekson]

Read

I'm humbled but surprised that you agree. Israel cannot and does not fulfill Daniel 9:24. Only Christ could fulfill the specified requirements, and this He did in the midst of the 70th week (Daniel 9:27) at Calvary.

The 70th week was not postponed. Daniel declared that it was determined.

Its fulfillment by Christ was the message of the historic orthodox Christian Church for more than 1700 years.

Read the post I left about understanding Dan. 9:24-27

 

[Trekson]

T

I'm humbled but surprised that you agree. Israel cannot and does not fulfill Daniel 9:24. Only Christ could fulfill the specified requirements, and this He did in the midst of the 70th week (Daniel 9:27) at Calvary.

The 70th week was not postponed. Daniel declared that it was determined.

Its fulfillment by Christ was the message of the historic orthodox Christian Church for more than 1700 years.

Then the orthodox church was wrong, read my last on this topic.

 

[covenantee]

Read the post I left about understanding Dan. 9:24-27

Daniel's 70th week is determined.

Yours isn't.

 

[Trekson]

Daniel's 70th week is determined.

Yours isn't.

God determines when and how He will fulfill it. If one doesn't think God is fulfilling prophecy the way you expect Him to do, take it up w/ Him. If you're sincere enough, he may show you the truth.

 

[covenantee]

T

Then the orthodox church was wrong, read my last on this topic.

What to believe?

1. More than 1700 years of historic orthodox Christian Church wisdom and discernment
2. Less than 200 years of modernist revisionist dispensational dearth and delusion

Anyone need a hint?

 

[covenantee]

God determines when and how He will fulfill it. If one doesn't think God is fulfilling prophecy the way you expect Him to do, take it up w/ Him. If you're sincere enough, he may show you the truth.

When Daniel declared that 70 weeks were determined, was he, or was he not, declaring that it was God who had determined them?

 

[Trekson]

What to believe?

1. More than 1700 years of historic orthodox Christian Church wisdom and discernment
2. Less than 200 years of modernist revisionist dispensational dearth and delusion

Anyone need a hint?

Dan. 12:4 tells us that in the latter days, knowledge will increase. That includes both secular and prophetic knowledge. Do you not think that that the generation that sees "all these things fulfilled" won't have a better grasp on prophecy then those who were over a thousand years away from their actual fulfillments? There are some prophecies that had to reach a certain level of technology to be understood, some things that those of the 1700 hundred years wouldn't even be able to begin to comprehend.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Zechariah speaking of the millennial era, 8:23 - "Thus saith the Lord of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you." Was that quick enough?

What evidence do you have to indicate that Zechariah 8:23 has anything to do with a time period following the return of Christ? None. You have nothing at all to back up your Premil belief except for a mistaken chronological reading of Revelation 19 and 20. Does it not concern you that nothing else in the New Testament supports Premil?

 

[Trekson]

When Daniel declared that 70 weeks were determined, was he, or was he not, declaring that it was God who had determined them?

Yes, he was saying "who" determined them. However, it's also God who determines "when and how" he will fulfill them and the division within the context shows it's not an uninterrupted 70 week period.