- Do you believe that Christ is literally coming suddenly and unexpectedly "as a thief in the night" as the Bible says (1 Thessalonians 5:2 and 2 Peter 3:10)?
- Do you believe that the wicked will literally experience "sudden destruction" from His appearance as the Bible says (1 Thessalonians 5:3)?
- Do you believe that the wicked literally "shall not escape" as the Bible says (1 Thessalonians 5:3)?
- Do do you believe that Jesus is literally coming "In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ” (2 Thessalonians 1:8)?
- Do do you believe that the wicked shall literally "be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power" (2 Thessalonians 1:9)?
- What unregenerate man is excluded from the description of "them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ" (2 Thessalonians 1:8)?
- Do you believe that "the heavens shall pass away with a great noise" literally when He returns as a thief as the Bible says (2 Peter 3:10)?
- Do you believe that "the elements shall melt with fervent heat" literally when He returns as a thief as the Bible says (2 Peter 3:10 & 12)?
- Do you believe that "the earth also ... shall be burned up" literally when He returns as a thief as the Bible says (2 Peter 3:10)?
- Do you believe that "the works that are therein [the earth] shall be burned up" literally when He returns as a thief as the Bible says (2 Peter 3:10)?
- Do you believe that the righteous are actually looking "for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness” literally when He returns as a thief as the Bible says (2 Peter 3:13)?
The Relationship Between Israel and the Church
- Thread starter Trekson
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Are you Pretrib?
Many testify that they are Premillennial because they take the Word of God literally, yet, when you put their theology to the test the opposite picture unfolds. Premillennialism spiritualizes the literal passages and literalizes the spiritual passages. That is because, if they were to take many passages in Scripture literal it would forbid Premillennialism. They are therefore forced to spiritualize it away. They literalize many figurative passages in the Old Testament because they lack support for their belief in the New Testament. Their hyper-literalistic approach to highly-figurative Revelation is a case-in-point. Their own hermeneutics actually forbid their beliefs. As Kim Riddlebarger says: “Their own hermeneutics will not bear the weight that is assigned to it … they cannot make good on their own stated hermeneutics”
For example:
The day that Jesus returns is an actual day. The Bible calls it “the last day” (singular). This is presented in direct contrast to “the last days” (plural). Basically, it is the final day of the last days. It is not a figurative indefinite day. After all, time concludes at the last trumpet. When you couple that with the sudden and climactic detail attached to the day it is easy to understand its literal meaning. But because this negates the Premil thesis, Premillennialists spiritual the day to be a prolonged period of time and they spiritualize away the wholesale destruction that destroys the current corrupt natural when Jesus comes.
Jesus identifies “the end” with His “coming” (including the passing away of the current heavens and earth) in Matthew 24:35-44. Paul does the same in 1 Corinthians 15:12-14, 21-24. 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9 supports this. It shows that “the coming of the Lord” ushers in “sudden” and total “destruction” of the wicked and “they shall not escape.” 2 Thessalonians 1:7-12, 2:1-7 corroborates the fact that “the coming of our Lord” is the concluding day of time. These are irrefutable. Peter reinforces this in 2 Peter 3:3-13 telling us that the heavens shall pass away / perish with a great noise, the elements shall be ‘loosed by being set on fire’, the earth shall be ‘burned up utterly / consumed wholly, and the works that are within the earth shall be ‘burned up utterly / consumed wholly at the coming of Jesus. Premillennialists deny this by spiritualizing this truth away. The coming of Christ is the end. That is if one takes Scripture literally.
Premillennialists have a habit of making eschatology complicated, confusing and contradictory. Nothing is ever simple in this school of thought. Everything is convoluted. They are always duplicating biblical events in order to try and make their doctrine fit. They are constantly seeing double. They have two kingdom ages, two Gospel ages, two ages of death, sin, rebellion, and funerals. They invent 2 Gog/Magog wars at the end of two last days periods. They invent two "first resurrections." They duplicate the "last day." They have 2 bindings of Satan. They see two future ages after this one, even though Scripture shows 1. They see 2 last days periods, even though Scripture just teaches 1. They see 2 individual last or final days, even though the Bible depicts 1. They see (at least) 2 resurrection days (plural), even though the sacred text portrays 1. They promotes 2 future judgment days (plural), even though God’s Word only recognizes 1. They have 2 weddings of the elect (Revelation 19:7-8 and Revelation 21:2), 2 future glorifications and 2 raptures (to facilitate their millennial earth passing away 1,000 years+ after the second coming).
Is anything safe from this faulty mode of interpretation? What is next?
Because Premillennialism lacks any corroboration in Scripture for a future 1,000 years’ age after the second coming, it invents 2 “last days” periods to allow Premillennialism to fit. Mark 1 now, and Mark 2 after the second coming. Premillennialists also invent 2 new heavens and new earths. Mark 1 they relate to their alleged future millennium and is sin-cursed and corrupt. Mark 2 is perfect and incorrupt and they equate it to 1,000 years+ after this.
Premillennialism duplicates everything. They are seeing double. 2 resurrection days and 2 judgment days. There is nowhere in Scripture that talks about including Revelation 20.
The "last day" is referencing the fulfillment of the feast of Tabernacles when Messiah come to dwell on earth. Yes, it's the end of the dispensation of grace and the church age. Your concept of sudden desruction is over dramatized as the word "total" isn't used. Either you or a faulty translation is adding that. There is a reason why the phrase " a day is as a thousand years and a thousand years are as a day" just prior to speaking of the "day" of the lord.
When Scripture refers to the coming of Christ it is always in the singular sense, not plural. This is both consistent and telling. Due to a desire to justify their own end-time theology many blur (or explain away) the difference between “the last days” (plural) and “the last day” (singular). They do not let the Scriptures speak for themselves. You will never understand the nature and extent of “the last day” (singular) until you understand the nature and extent of “the last days” (plural). You will never grasp the meaning of both until you see the connected dynamic between the two.
Scripture clearly and repeatedly depicts the second coming as the “last (or end, farthest or final) day (singular) of “the last (or end, farthest or final) days” (plural). It also depicts it as “the end.” The New Testament word from which we get our phrase “the end” is the Greek word telos which refers to the point aimed at as a limit, i.e. the conclusion of an act or state. It is the termination point of a thing.
Premillennialists have a habit of diluting the meaning of the phrase “the last day” to the degree that they literally strip it of its obvious, straightforward, consistent and widely accepted meaning.
Likewise, the end of this world and the regeneration of this earth is repeatedly shown to correspond with the end of this age – at the second coming. Time and history find themselves sandwiched in between these two great events. Simply put: “this age” refers to “time” and “the age to come” or the “hereafter” refers to “eternity.”
The objective Bible student should be cognizant of the contrast between “the last days” (plural) and “the last day” (singular). One refers to the intra-Advent period and the other refers to the final day of that same period. As you study the consistent biblical teaching on this matter you discover that “the last day” is in fact “the end.” There is nothing vague or indefinite about these terms. This aligns with what Scripture repeatedly describe as “the end of the age.” In fact, if one was to do a thorough and objective study of each of these expressions and carefully note the detail that is attributed to each you will notice a consistent pattern that they all describe the same climactic event when Jesus appears. This is it!
Christ’s first Advent marked the beginning of the last days; His second Advent will mark the end of the last days. Repeated Scripture shows that there will be a final day to time. This will come when Jesus returns in majesty and glory.
The Bible shows the resurrection/judgment of the righteous and the resurrection of the wicked to occur on “the last (or final) day” of “the last days” when Jesus comes. Martha had a full awareness of that truth in the New Testament, when speaking of her brother Lazarus to Christ, in John 11:23-24, “Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again. Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”
Christ did not rebuke this understanding of the last day. In fact, Christ taught in complete agreement in John 6:39.
Jesus said in John 6:39: “all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.”
Resurrection day is the last day. It is the final day of history.
Jesus said in John 6:39: “every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.”
Jesus said in John 6:44: “No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.”
Jesus said in John 6:54: “Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood (speaking spiritually and figuratively), hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”
Premils are unable to take Scripture after Scripture literally (and at face value) because it interferes with their mistaken opinion. They must therefore dismiss the "last day" being the "last day" because they have to squeeze thousands of additional days after history's last day. This is blatantly unbiblical. Amils are happy to let the Bible speak for itself.
Whilst, we are plainly in the last days there is an actual day coming which will conclude this scene of time and will see the final operation of God’s judgment upon sin, Satan and the wicked. That individual day is frequently known as “the last day.”
The sum total of God’s elect will be gloriously raised at this concluding final day. The resurrection of the righteous like that of the wicked is therefore for the purpose of judgment and happens on that great last or final day of salvation. That is how Paul could say with all assurance in 2 Timothy 4:8, “there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.”
Moreover, this concluding last day is not just a day of resurrection and judgment for the righteous but also for the wicked. This is confirmed by Christ in John 12:48, when He said, “He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.”
Here the wicked are judged on the same day that the righteous are judged, namely, the “last day” of the “last days.” Judgment day is therefore the last day. The term “the last day” is quoted different times in the New Testament without any form (or undoubted requirement) of qualification or any hint that there are two separate last days, as the Premillennialist would try and argue. When Christ or any other person referred to that final day in the New Testament it was always constantly in the context of its all-consummating nature, each time referring to the matter of the resurrection/judgment of both the wicked and the righteous. The references expressly refer to the last day of this age (the Gospel age) – the day that ushers in the new heaven and the new earth. There are absolutely no grounds for believing that the last day refers to a future millennium, and therefore lasts for a literal 1,000 years. Such a suggestion only emanates out of the Premillennialist camp in order to support their flawed view of Revelation 20.
Significantly, in all the above references, the wording in the original for “last day” is always identical – eschatee heemara. The Greek word eschatee used here comes from the root word eschatos, from where we get our word English eschatology, and simply means end, last, farthest or final. Eschatology is therefore the study of, or teaching on, end times or final or last things. It covers the period of redemptive history.
We can therefore safely assume from its meaning that the last day alluded to in these references relates to the end or final day of this age, the day when all the purposes of God for man in this life are finally concluded and judged. It is the last or final day when the old heavens and the old earth will finally pass away and be replaced by a new heaven and a new earth. It is an all-consummating day in which every man will give finally give account for his life.
so are you saying the beasts are the same? Or simply that the 7 heads and 10 horns, whether beast or dragon, represent the same thing?
Sorry, but all the John references are referring to the last day of the feast of tabernacles where the next day starts the millennium. 2 Tim, the "day" the church is raptured up to heaven (the last day on earth for the church) for the Bema seat judgment of Christ. John 12 is either the S&G judgment or the GWTJ. There are several various events prophesied that will have a "last day" associated w/ them. If you think that every time the bible mentions the "last day" it puts them all in the same thing bucket, isn't rightly dividing the words of truth. We have the last day of the 70th week, the last day of the church age, the last day of the feast of Tabernacles, the last day before the millennium, our last day on earth, the last day before the coming of the NHNE&NJ, the last day of the day of the Lord, the GWTJ on the last day, the last day before the rapture, the last day before the resurrection of Israel, etc, etc. They are 'not" all the same day!
We know who the 7 heads (kings/nations) are. We know the 10 horns are the ten nations of the a/c's confederacy. The nations will be part of those who all had control over Israel throughout history also controlled.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Except that the eternal covenants Gd made with the nation of Israel are still in effect. that doesn't mean all are saved by ethnicity, but that God will honor HIs covenants.
Agreed, but the remnant that enters the millennium will still get the saved the same way the church does, not by their ethnicity but by accepting Christ.
I would say that the Gentiles are branches on the tree, as is Israel.
The tree is Abraham, of whom we've become his children. Not Jacob's children.
Much love!
Zao is life
Well-Known Member
Are you saying Jacob's children are not Abraham's children?
Why then is Jacob a.k.a Israel, and why are Gentiles grafted into the remnant of Jacob (Israel) (Ephesians 2:19; Romans 11:17)?
When and where did God make a separate covenant with Gentiles who are in Christ so that we are a separate group from the remnant of Jacob which is in Christ?
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No, I'm saying we are not "Spiritual Israel" or some such, "spiritual children of Jacob". We are Abraham's spiritual children, and Israel is Abraham's children through Isaac and Jacob.
"In Christ", remember, is neither Greek nor Jew.
Much love!
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