The Relationship Between Israel and the Church

[Zao is life]

No, I'm saying we are not "Spiritual Israel" or some such, "spiritual children of Jacob". We are Abraham's spiritual children, and Israel is Abraham's children through Isaac and Jacob.

"In Christ", remember, is neither Greek nor Jew.

Much love!

1. Why; and

2. HOW are Gentiles grafted into the remnant of Jacob (Israel)

if we do not have the same DNA as the natural branches (Ephesians 2:19; Romans 11:17)?

3. When and where did God make a separate covenant with Gentiles who are in Christ so that we are a separate group from the remnant of Jacob which is in Christ (Jeremiah 31:31)?

Acts 3:22-23
For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

4. Do the natural branches who have been broken off (Romans 11:17) still have a covenant with God that God honors (Acts 3:22-23: Matthew 26:28; Hebrews 8:13; Deuteronomy 18:18-19)?​

 

[marks]

1. Why; and​

Why what?

2. HOW are Gentiles grafted into the remnant of Jacob (Israel)​

They are not. They are grafted into Abraham.

if we do not have the same DNA as the natural branches (Ephesians 2:19; Romans 11:17)?​

What is the relevance of our DNA?

3. When and where did God make a separate covenant with Gentiles who are in Christ so that we are a separate group from the remnant of Jacob which is in Christ (Jeremiah 31:31)?​

??

Remember . . . In Christ is neither Greek nor Jew. When we believe, these distinctions are erased.

Acts 3:22-23
For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

4. Do the natural branches who have been broken off (Romans 11:17) still have a covenant with God that God honors (Acts 3:22-23: Matthew 26:28; Hebrews 8:13)?​

I'd be more inclined to reply if you posted the verses and showed what you are looking at in each.

To be clear, Jews when they believe are no longer Israel, they are "in Christ", neither Greek nor Jew. When Gentiles believe, they are likewise "in Christ", which does not mean to become Jewish.

When Jews believe, when gentiles believe, "in Christ is neither Greek nor Jew". No, Gentiles become Jews. That's not what the Bible teaches.

Much love!

 

[Zao is life]

Why what?

They are not. They are grafted into Abraham.

What is the relevance of our DNA?

??

Remember . . . In Christ is neither Greek nor Jew. When we believe, these distinctions are erased.

I'd be more inclined to reply if you posted the verses and showed what you are looking at in each.

To be clear, Jews when they believe are no longer Israel, they are "in Christ", neither Greek nor Jew. When Gentiles believe, they are likewise "in Christ", which does not mean to become Jewish.

When Jews believe, when gentiles believe, "in Christ is neither Greek nor Jew". No, Gentiles become Jews. That's not what the Bible teaches.

Much love!

Much love!

1. Is the New Covenant promised to Gentiles, or to the house of Israel and the house of Judah (Jeremiah 31:31)?

2. How do Gentiles come to be part of a covenant that does not name Gentiles and is not covenanted with Gentiles but with the descendants of Jacob only?

3. Did God make a covenant with Abraham and His seed through Isaac and Jacob (Israel), or were those not descended from Isaac and Jacob (Gentiles) also given a separate covenant, and separately elected?

4. Do the natural branches /descendants of Jacob who have been broken off (Romans 11:17) still have a covenant with God that God honors (Acts 3:22-23: Matthew 26:28; Hebrews 8:13; Deuteronomy 18:18-19)?

5, Does Paul say the Gentiles grafted in are fellow citizens with the saints or separate citizens, separate from the natural remnant?

6. @marks Whose DNA do you think matters to God with respect to His covenants with mankind: (A) the DNA of the descendants of created human beings, or (B) the DNA of Christ - the last Adam who took on human flesh and who. according to the flesh, is a descendant of Jacob? Are not all God's covenants fulfilled in Him?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

1 Cor. 15:12-14 says no such thing. There is a 1000 yrs.+ between vss. 23 and 24.

Yes, you have to force 1,000 years into the text to make it say what you want it to say. Amils get accused of not taking scripture literally, which is a false claim. The text in 1 Corinthians 15:22-24 literally says that the end will come when Jesus comes.

The 'day of the Lord" isn't a single day,

Oh, really? So, tell me how "sudden destruction" (1 Thessalonians 5:2-3) can occur over a period of time.

it's over a 1000 yrs. long as it includes the millennial era.

What are you basing that on?

1 Thess. 5:3 doesn't say 'total", vs. 9 is speaking of eternal wrath, not end times wrath.

LOL. Not end times wrath? Do you deny that 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 will occur when Jesus returns?

2 Thess 1:7-9 is speaking about Armageddon

Your Premil understanding of Armageddon does not include all unbelievers being destroyed when Jesus comes. Where in 2 Thess 1:7-9 does Paul indicate that he's not talking about Jesus taking vengeance on all unbelievers when He returns?

Imo, 2 Pet. 3:7-13 is a stand-alone prophecy and is speaking about the coming of the "last day" of the day of the Lord as described in Rev. 20:9 NHNE begins w/ 20:11.

LOL. A stand-alone prophecy? That means you believe in two separate days of the Lord that will come as a thief in the night since you don't believe that 2 Peter 3:-13 and 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 refer to the same event.

The coming of Christ isn't the "end" although it can be considered the "end of the church age"

What "church age" are you talking about? Show me where scripture refers to a "church age".

which is the present dispensation we are in. Matt. 24:35-44 isn't talking about "end" of the world as Noah and his family lived to repopulate the earth.

At the end of the age when Jesus comes He will destroy all unbelievers, as Matthew 24:35-39 indicates. Yes, Noah and his family survived, but the ones who will survive Christ's return will be changed to put on bodily immortality at that time. No one will repopulate the earth at that time.

The flood ended the 2nd dispensation of "conscience" which began w/ the fall.

Show me where scripture speaks of a "2nd dispensation of conscience". It seems that you like to just make things up.

After the flood, starting w/ Noah and his family the 3rd dispensation began which was called "human government".

Show me where scripture teaches this.

That dispensation ended w/ the covenant made between God and Abram, which began the dispensation of "Promise". The dispensation following that was The Law and that ended at the cross where this present dispensation of "grace" began. The next and last dispensation is called the "Kingdom" where Christ will rule and reign upon the earth.

Nice made up story three. As for me, I will stick to the Bible rather than just make things up that are nowhere taught in the Bible.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Why what?

They are not. They are grafted into Abraham.

What is the relevance of our DNA?

??

Remember . . . In Christ is neither Greek nor Jew. When we believe, these distinctions are erased.

I'd be more inclined to reply if you posted the verses and showed what you are looking at in each.

To be clear, Jews when they believe are no longer Israel, they are "in Christ", neither Greek nor Jew. When Gentiles believe, they are likewise "in Christ", which does not mean to become Jewish.

When Jews believe, when gentiles believe, "in Christ is neither Greek nor Jew". No, Gentiles become Jews. That's not what the Bible teaches.

In the following passage, what does it say is the requirement for being "a Jew who is one inwardly"?

Romans 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

According to Paul, being "a Jew who is one inwardly" has nothing to do with being "a Jew, which is one outwardly" and, instead, he said it means that you have been circumcised of the heart, in the spirit. Do you not believe that Gentile believers have been circumcised of the heart, in the spirit? Paul said that they are.

Colossians 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. 10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: 11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

 

[WPM]

Already explained the difference.

No you did not. You cannot. It is the same event. Pretribs do not have 1 single proof text. It is a mine made Jesuit Invention.

 

[WPM]

Sorry, but all the John references are referring to the last day of the feast of tabernacles where the next day starts the millennium. 2 Tim, the "day" the church is raptured up to heaven (the last day on earth for the church) for the Bema seat judgment of Christ. John 12 is either the S&G judgment or the GWTJ. There are several various events prophesied that will have a "last day" associated w/ them. If you think that every time the bible mentions the "last day" it puts them all in the same thing bucket, isn't rightly dividing the words of truth. We have the last day of the 70th week, the last day of the church age, the last day of the feast of Tabernacles, the last day before the millennium, our last day on earth, the last day before the coming of the NHNE&NJ, the last day of the day of the Lord, the GWTJ on the last day, the last day before the rapture, the last day before the resurrection of Israel, etc, etc. They are 'not" all the same day!

There is only one resurrection day. There is only one judgment day. There are no resurrection days (plural). There are no judgment days (plural). All this distinction between the bema seat and the GWT is man-made manipulation.

It is clear from all your previous posts that you think that if you state an opinion it is a fact. That is not the way it works. It is merely private interpretation. It is totally inadmissible.

Your teachers have deceived you.

 

[WPM]

Already explained the difference.

Your modus operandi is avoidance. You cannot address the Scriptures presented. That is because they forbid your error.

 

[WPM]

Agreed, but the remnant that enters the millennium will still get the saved the same way the church does, not by their ethnicity but by accepting Christ.

Why do you avoid so many climactic second coming Scriptures? Why do you refuse to take the Bible literal? That is what Gnosticism is.

 

[WPM]

Except that the eternal covenants Gd made with the nation of Israel are still in effect. that doesn't mean all are saved by ethnicity, but that God will honor HIs covenants.

BREAKING NEWS! The old covenant is abolished. Scripture describes the old covenant sacrificial system as “that which is done away” (2 Corinthians 3:11) and “that which is abolished” (2 Corinthians 3:13). It makes clear: “the old testament … vail is done away in Christ" (2 Corinthians 3:14). Hebrews 10:9 confirms: “He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.” Hebrews 10:2 confirms they “ceased to be offered?

 

[Trekson]

No you did not. You cannot. It is the same event. Pretribs do not have 1 single proof text. It is a mine made Jesuit Invention.

I'm not pretrib.

 

[Trekson]

There is only one resurrection day. There is only one judgment day. There are no resurrection days (plural). There are no judgment days (plural). All this distinction between the bema seat and the GWT is man-made manipulation.

It is clear from all your previous posts that you think that if you state an opinion it is a fact. That is not the way it works. It is merely private interpretation. It is totally inadmissible.

Your teachers have deceived you.

The only teacher I have is the HS who leads me to "rightly divide the scripture" and that's a lot easier to do when one realizes there is more than one fulfillment bucket. One gets that when don't try to divide scripture at all and treats them all the same when they are not.

 

[Trekson]

Your modus operandi is avoidance. You cannot address the Scriptures presented. That is because they forbid your error.

I have addressed any scriptures you have provided, just not in the way you want me to.

 

[Trekson]

Why do you avoid so many climactic second coming Scriptures? Why do you refuse to take the Bible literal? That is what Gnosticism is.

I take the bible very literal and if the bible gives two descriptions of similar events, there is a reason why and it is usually because they are two separate events. You just haven't come to that realization yet.

 

[WPM]

I'm not pretrib.

What are you? Are you Postrib Premil?

 

[WPM]

I take the bible very literal and if the bible gives two descriptions of similar events, there is a reason why and it is usually because they are two separate events. You just haven't come to that realization yet.

No you do not! You spiritualize literal truth.

• You do NOT believe that Christ is literally coming suddenly and unexpectedly "as a thief in the night" as the Bible says (1 Thessalonians 5:2 and 2 Peter 3:10).
• You do NOT believe that the wicked will literally experience "sudden destruction" from His appearance as the Bible says (1 Thessalonians 5:3).
• You do NOT believe that the wicked literally "shall not escape" as the Bible says (1 Thessalonians 5:3).
• You do NOT believe that Jesus is literally coming "In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ” (2 Thessalonians 1:8).
• You do NOT believe that the wicked shall literally "be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power" (2 Thessalonians 1:9).
• You do NOT believe that Christ destroys all "them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ" when He comes (2 Thessalonians 1:8).
• You do NOT believe that "the heavens shall pass away with a great noise" literally when He returns as a thief as the Bible says (2 Peter 3:10).
• You do NOT believe that "the elements shall melt with fervent heat" literally when He returns as a thief as the Bible says (2 Peter 3:10 & 12).
• You do NOT believe that "the earth also ... shall be burned up" literally when He returns as a thief as the Bible says (2 Peter 3:10).
• You do NOT believe that "the works that are therein [the earth] shall be burned up" literally when He returns as a thief as the Bible says (2 Peter 3:10).
• You do NOT believe that the righteous are actually looking "for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness” literally when He returns as a thief as the Bible says (2 Peter 3:13).

 

[WPM]

The only teacher I have is the HS who leads me to "rightly divide the scripture" and that's a lot easier to do when one realizes there is more than one fulfillment bucket. One gets that when don't try to divide scripture at all and treats them all the same when they are not.

That is not true. You twist and avoid every text presented. You have to.

 

[Trekson]

What are you? Are you Postrib Premil?

post persecution premill

 

[Trekson]

No you do not! You spiritualize literal truth.

• You do NOT believe that Christ is literally coming suddenly and unexpectedly "as a thief in the night" as the Bible says (1 Thessalonians 5:2 and 2 Peter 3:10).
• You do NOT believe that the wicked will literally experience "sudden destruction" from His appearance as the Bible says (1 Thessalonians 5:3).
• You do NOT believe that the wicked literally "shall not escape" as the Bible says (1 Thessalonians 5:3).
• You do NOT believe that Jesus is literally coming "In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ” (2 Thessalonians 1:8).
• You do NOT believe that the wicked shall literally "be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power" (2 Thessalonians 1:9).
• You do NOT believe that Christ destroys all "them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ" when He comes (2 Thessalonians 1:8).
• You do NOT believe that "the heavens shall pass away with a great noise" literally when He returns as a thief as the Bible says (2 Peter 3:10).
• You do NOT believe that "the elements shall melt with fervent heat" literally when He returns as a thief as the Bible says (2 Peter 3:10 & 12).
• You do NOT believe that "the earth also ... shall be burned up" literally when He returns as a thief as the Bible says (2 Peter 3:10).
• You do NOT believe that "the works that are therein [the earth] shall be burned up" literally when He returns as a thief as the Bible says (2 Peter 3:10).
• You do NOT believe that the righteous are actually looking "for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness” literally when He returns as a thief as the Bible says (2 Peter 3:13).

I do agree w/ all that, I just know it's not all at once.

 

[Trekson]

That is not true. You twist and avoid every text presented. You have to.

No, I don't have to, I just know it's not all at once.