This is the context of how Dan. 9:24-27 should be considered!
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asking me if the tribulation and persecution are the literal stone temple or not, is completely unrelated to my question. Now we can add red herring to your list of argumentative fallacies.
so I’ll try again: did Jesus tell his disciples that when they saw all the events of the Olivet discourse (regardless of how you personally interpret those events) that then they WOULD KNOW it was near, right at the door, just as when a fig tree sprouts leaves, they know summer is near?
Did the disciples, in the NT, state the end of all things had drawn near, that it was the last hour, that the coming of the lord had drawn near, that the Lord would come in a little while and without delay, etc….?
Zao is life
Well-Known Member
Did the disciples know that Jesus's return has not happened yet - over 1,900 years after their lifetimes?
Did the disciples know that Jesus's return has not happened yet - over 1,900 years after their lifetimes?
The last hour (1 John 2:18) has everything to do with the last days (Hebrews 1:2), and the last days has everything to do with Christ and the return of Christ and the Day of Judgment, which has not yet occurred (Hebrews 1:1-3; Isaiah 2:2-5; Matthew 25:31-46).
Answer the question in post #200 before asking any more questions that do not prove your point.
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Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
LOL. Sometimes you do make me laugh and that's not boring.
I agree. I really shouldn't waste my time like that.
That's great. Thanks a lot, bud.
Hallelujah! We agree on something! Let's enjoy that and maybe just not talk to each other ever again. We can end our discussions on a high note.
Yep. Another agreement. How awesome is that?
Jesus was not coming quickly at the time he said it since He didn't come immediately at that time. If you can't understand something simple like this, then...wow.
Yeah, no kidding. But, I wanted to focus on one thing at a time by first discussing what Jesus saying "I am coming quickly" means. That statement, in and of itself, gives no indication of how long it would be until He comes. You take the statement "the time is near" very literally and you end up believing in the false belief that Jesus came in 70 AD, which He absolutely did not. His coming being near can be understood that it was continually approaching and certain to occur. But, I don't expect you to understand that because of your hyper-literal understanding of verses like that.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Look at the lengths people go to in order to deny what scripture indicates. They are trying to deny what historical documents and writings indicate happened in 70 AD. But, to them, what happened isn't recorded in the Bible so it couldn't have actually happened. Meanwhile, they have no problem believing things that are recorded as happening in the past in secular history books. Well, they can go to Jerusalem and see that the temple buildings are not still there. I wonder when they think that the temple buildings were destroyed, if not in 70 AD?The historical account of the Judaean Christians' flight is given by Eusebius of Caesarea, acclaimed Father of Church History:
The people of the Church in Jerusalem were commanded by an oracle given by revelation before the war to those in the city who were worthy of it to depart and dwell in one of the cities of Perea which they called Pella. To it those who believed on Christ traveled from Jerusalem…”
— Eusebius, Church History 3, 5, 3
So you believe that the Judaean Christians ignored Jesus' warning, and remained where they were, and were slaughtered.
Even though Jesus warned those in Judaea to flee, nobody fled.
Whom to believe?
1. You
2. Jesus
Need a hint?
More red herrings. I’ll remind you, that you interrupted my dialogue with another user, to posit questions and statements completely unrelated to me and the others use’s dialogue. Why would I answer those before you actually address anything I posted.
1.) did Jesus tell the disciples they would know it was near when they saw the events of the Olivet discourse?
2.) in the NT, do the disciples say the end of all things is at hand, it is the last hour, the coming of the Lord is at hand, and the lord will come in a little while and without delay?
Zao is life
Well-Known Member
This is a forum and if you post, anyone has the right to correct you. Your arrogance is only causing you to make more and more of a fool of yourself and making it abundantly clear that you are not able to answer my question to you in Post #200, hence your avoidance by attempting to answer the question by asking more fallacious questions.
It's also making it abundantly clear that you do not know what the signs are that Jesus gave on the Mount of Olives when telling His disciples about the tribulation they were to experience at the end of the age, and linking those signs to that.
Yes, the disciples will know when we see the events of the Olivet Discourse, that the time is near - because we believers all know that the signs Jesus gave us in the context of speaking about the tribulation of the living stones of the New Testament Temple at the end of the age, are for the living stones of the New Testament Temple, which have nothing to do with the stones of the defunct temple - the stones which Jesus on the Temple Mount stated would not be left one upon another.
Beyond warning His disciples to flee Judea when they see Jerusalem surrounded with armies, Jesus was not bothered about whether or not the stones of the defunct temple would know about the "tribulation" that would come upon them at the end of the age by giving them signs surrounding their tribulation.
Your obsession with those stones is beyond bizarre.
1. The last hour is part of the last days and comes at the close of the last days.
God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds (Hebrews 1:1-2)
And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD’S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. (Isaiah 2:2)
Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, THE HOUR cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. But THE HOUR cometh, AND NOW IS, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. (John 4:21-24)
Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? But he spake of the temple of his body. (John 2:19-21).
And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD’S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. (Isaiah 2:2)
The last hour will come at the close of the last days, which have not come yet. But of that day and hour YOU DO NOT KNOW, because no man does:
2. And the Lord said, Hear what the unjust judge saith. And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them? I tell you that he will avenge them speedily [G5034 tachos - swiftly and without delay]. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth? (Luke 18:6-8).
And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees; When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand [G1451 eggus]. So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand [G1451 eggus]. Verily I say unto you, THIS THE generation [HAUTE GENEA AN: G3778; G1074; and G302] shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away." (Luke 21:29-33).
G3778 This
G1074:genea (generation)
G302: an (often untranslated, but can imply "if," "would," "might," or "should" depending on the context). G302 (AN) denotes uncertainty regarding the subject, example:
And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until [heos an G2193 G302] I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him. (Matthew 2:13)
The length of time Joseph was told to remain in Egypt was not definitively stated.
In the case of Luke 21: 23, [G302 an] used with G1074 genea denotes the fact that the generation that is being spoken about, is not being definitively stated.
Revelation 1:3
Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the season [G2540 kairos] is at hand [G1451 eggus].
The Revelation of Jesus Christ to His churches is His final direct word by revelation to us UNTIL the time of His return - WHICH IS WHY HE GAVE HIS REVELATION TO HIS CHURCHES.
The word G1451 eggus in Revelation 1:3 is the first proof in the Revelation of the fact that the Revelation was primarily given for the generation who will be alive when Jesus returns - when the signs Jesus gave us in the Olivet Discourse are now all aligned:
And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees; When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand [G1451 eggus]. So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand [G1451 eggus]. Verily I say unto you, THIS THE generation [HAUTE GENEA AN: G3778; G1074; and G302] shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away." (Luke 21:29-33).
The Revelation of Jesus Christ to His churches is His final direct word by revelation to us UNTIL the time of His return - WHICH IS WHY HE GAVE HIS REVELATION TO HIS CHURCHES. But you have corrupted it and seek to continue to corrupt it by your false doctrine.
I will not respond to any more of your fallacious questions based upon your bizarre obsession with the stones of a defunct temple. You have made it totally obvious that you will not answer the simple question in Post #200 because you need to avoid answering it
- so you keep attempting to answer it with more fallacious questions based upon your bizarre obsession with the stones of a defunct temple.
You're a joke - and do not tell me not to correct you when you make false statements to others. This is a forum and if you post, anyone has the right to correct you.
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Here's a joke.
Matthew 21:12
And Jesus went into the saints of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the saints, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves,
And this.
John 5:14
Afterward Jesus findeth him in the saints, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.
And this.
John 10:23
And Jesus walked in the saints in Solomon's porch.
Gnosis psychosis.
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Glad to be of service.
Looking at the phrase “ I am coming quickly” by itself, in a vacuum, without including any surround context, means it defaults to happening now. You need additional context to make the claim “we have no indication of when it is until the action occurs”. Because of the additional surrounding context, yes, I agree that the present tense verb “I am coming” doesn’t mean now, but future.
If the time was near to happening, then Christ can’t be coming “now”. Thus from a grammatical standpoint, The present tense verb “I am coming” indicates a future action as certainly to occur.
Correct, I take the timing statements of when prophecies are to occur in a more literal sense. For example: Daniel 8:26 and Daniel 12:4 - “seal up the vision for it refers may days from now/ the time of the end. “
I believe that angels words are literal in Daniel.
So with that being said , I don’t understand why I should take the angels words as not literal in revelation 22:10 - “do not seal up the vision, for the time is near. “
you seem to be getting a little worked up. Maybe take a deep breath and pause to think before having to rely on personal attacks in attempt to bolster your position
I never said you couldn’t respond to me. I simply reminded you that you put yourself into someone else’s conversation, that didn’t originally involve you. Why would I respond to any of your demands when you can’t even address the original post you interjected yourself into? I’m not interested in going down a bunch of different tangents with you, especially with how condescending you get.
I’m all for being corrected, but you didn’t even address the post. You haven’t corrected anything. You’re wasting your time with these long winded posts that don’t even address the point I was making.
Post 200 doesn’t address anything I said
I asked 2 simple questions -
1.) did Jesus tell the disciples they would know it was near, when they saw the events of the olivet discourse? Simple yes or no. If no, what does Jesus mean in Matthew 24:32-33 that they would know it is near when they saw the events of the Olivet discourse.
2.) did the disciple say the coming had drawn near, that the coming was in a little while without delay, that it was the last hour, that the end of all things had drawn near? Yes or no?
Zao is life
Well-Known Member
For someone who said he wants to leave it alone, you go to great lengths to twist what "people" said - underhandedly without naming the "people" - by implying that "people" denied what they did not deny and said what they did not say.
Well "people" would correctly assume it's because you cannot answer the simple question of whose tribulation Jesus was speaking about in His Mount of Olives Discourse, and the fact that in response to their questions on the Mount of Olives, He immediately launched into a discourse regarding the tribulation that the living stones of the New Testament Temple were to experience at the end of the age, and never mentioned the word "temple" again even once in His reply, or even after departing the Temple Mount.
Well I don't know which "people" you are talking about because as for myself - as I have already made clear - the followers of Jesus who were alive 40 years after His ascension would have fled Jerusalem when they saw it surrounded by armies because Jesus had told them to - and I have no doubt that the account in the writings of the ECF is accurate
- but to jump from there to "Jesus gave that warning not purely out of His concern for the safety and well-being of the living stones of the New Testament Temple, but also in order to answer His disciples' question 40 years earlier as to when the temple in Jerusalem would be destroyed (just because His disciples asked Him when the temple was going to be destroyed),
is to put your own motive that the text does not imply (eisegesis) into Jesus's reason for telling the living stones of the New Testament Temple - who believed HIM - to flee Judea when they see armies gathering around Jerusalem
- a motive besides His obvious concern for the safety and well-being of the living stones of the New Testament Temple) - and just because 40 years earlier four of the apostles had asked Him when the temple was going to be destroyed.
Your twisting of the words of what "people" say - without mentioning who the "people" are that you are talking to someone else about - is an example of the very underhanded nature of many of your posts that people on these boards have come to expect from you.
But you are no worse than @covenantee who did exactly the same with what I said to him - knowingly changing, in order to falsely imply I said something I did not and denied something I did not deny (the disciples fleeing Judea in 70 AD), and knowingly "adjusting" just a little what I actually said about it (in his post to me that you were quoting) - because what I said about it in this post is what I already said in various previous posts.
It's okay though, because "people" who read these boards can see your and his underhandedness and dishonesty.
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Zao is life
Well-Known Member
Here's a joke.
Matthew 21:12
And Jesus went into the saints of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the saints, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves,
And this.
John 5:14
Afterward Jesus findeth him in the saints, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.
And this.
John 10:23
And Jesus walked in the saints in Solomon's porch.
Gnosis psychosis.
Here's another one of your jokes:
After departing the above temple AND the Temple Mount, Jesus launched into a long discourse on The Mount of Olives and began telling the stones of that temple on the Temple Mount about the tribulation they were to endure at the end of the age, and the signs they were to look out for - and He did so because those stones wanted to know when it was going to come about that not one of them would be left on top of another.
Naturally (according to you) the stones of the temple on the Temple Mount fully understood that it was "their" tribulation Jesus was talking about on the Mount of Olives - and he was giving those stones the tribulation of those stones as the sign that they were about to be destroyed (but not as the sign of the end of the age and the time of His return).
Your jokes aside, here (yet again) are the facts:
On the Mount of Olives, and in a long discourse, Jesus gave His disciples signs of the end of the Age and time of His return - in the context of speaking about the tribulation of the living stones of the New Testament Temple at the end of the age.
Part of this discourse was Jesus also warning His disciples to flee Judea when they see Jerusalem surrounded with armies.
Only a lunatic would think that the reason He did so was not because He was concerned for the safety and well-being of the living stones of the New Testament Temple, but was instead concerned for the stones of the defunct temple in Jerusalem, and about His disciples knowing when that temple would be destroyed.
The disciples had asked their question that day out of ignorance regarding the death of Christ for sin, His resurrection, His ascension, the coming of the Holy Spirit upon the church, and the New Testament Temple. Jesus often did not answer the disciples' questions in accordance with what was going on in the minds of His disciples. He often answered with an answer that was in the mind of God. The Olivet Discourse is one such occasion.
It's easy to imagine the conversation between two people who had come to believe in Christ between AD30 and AD70. It would have goine something like this:
Henry: "Lilian, see! Jerusalem is being surrounded by the Roman armies! Didn't Jesus say His disciples should flee Judea when they see it happening?"
Lilian: "Yes! We'd better flee then, immediately!"
On the road:
Lillian: "Henry, Jesus said the temple in Jerusalem would be destroyed. Do you think that the prophecy is soon to be fulfilled?"
Henry: "It certainly seems like it could be very soon, Lilian. But I heard from someone else who passed us on the road that the Romans were still battling to breach Jerusalem's walls. Even if they do before Caesar for some reason changes his mind, they will still have to breach the temple walls. This is war. Anything could happen. The Jews in Jerusalem may surrender and make a deal with the Romans. Who knows."
etc etc.
But like you, millions of Christians insist that the Christians knew that the temple WAS going to be destroyed AT THAT TIME because Jesus had warned them that when they see armies surround Jerusalem, they should flee
- as though Jesus had added "because at that time the temple in Jerusalem will be destroyed."
Fact: Jesus did not once use the word "temple" again in His reply to the disciples' questions (plural) on the Mount of Olives. He had said twice on the Temple Mount it was going to be destroyed. That's all they needed to know about that temple because when Jesus died on the cross its purpose and significance was over, and it was now obsolete.
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Zao is life
Well-Known Member
Bear that in mind. Because you do not yourself answer questions made in response to you that make it clear that you do not know what you are talking about. Such as the simple question in Post #200.
And I answered the above questions more than once (though you pretend I have not or are unable to read because you did not get the answers you wanted).
Maybe you can't read answers that you did not want to hear, and so you think I did not answer your questions because I did not answer with the answers you wanted, but instead answered with the only correct answers?
The signs that Jesus gave on the Mount of Olives when telling His disciples about the tribulation they were to experience at the end of the age, are given in that context - the context of Jesus telling them about the tribulation they were to experience at the end of the age.
Like I said, I’m not going to answer your unrelated questions, if you first do not address the actual point I made, to which you foisted yourself onto
“The disciples will know it is near when WE see the events of the Olivet discourse” is not an answer to the question: did Jesus tell the disciples THEY would know it was near, right at the door when they saw the events of the Olivet discourse.
so again, did Jesus tell the disciples THEY would know it is near, right at the door when THEY saw the events of the Olivet discourse? It’s a simple yes or no. Either Jesus did tell the disciples they would know it was near or he didn’t.
Did the disciples claim the coming of the Lord had drawn near, that the coming of the Lord was in a little while and without delay, that the end of all things had drawn near, and that it was the last hour? It’s a simple yes or no, they did or did not claim such things.
Your statement that Jesus told the disciples that they would know it was near when “we” see it, is not something Jesus said, and therefore doesn’t address the point I made.
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Zao is life
Well-Known Member
You just proved my point.You got the only correct answer to the question but it was not the answer you were looking for.Again (for the LAST time):
1. Jesus was talking to His disciples - those who would be alive at the end of the age. about the tribulation we (or whoever it is who will be alive at the end of the age) will experience.
2. The end of the age = the last hour, and the last hour will come at the end of the last days. The last days has lasted since the time of Christ till now - this is the age Jesus was talking about.
Just because your "end of the age" is 70 AD (despite you having ZERO basis for such a claim except your fleshly obsession with the Old Covenant and the temple that represented it), does not mean I did not answer your question
Thanks for proving what I said about getting the answer - the only correct answer - and then falsely claiming you never got the answer because it wasn't the answer you were looking for.
Zao is life
Well-Known Member
Bear it in mind so that you don't twist what I said, and bear it in mind so that when "people" twist what "people" say when they are not talking to the people whose words are being twisted, but to you and without naming the "people" they are talking about, but underhandedly, then instead of giving it a like, like someone who belongs to Jesus you will take it with a grain of salt.
I've twisted nothing.
The evidence confirms.
The twisting is yours.
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Incorrect, you only gave me your personal opinions on things I wasn’t even talking about.
I didn’t ask who Jesus was talking to. It’s obvious from the text he was talking to his disciples, in front of him, in private. I asked about Matthew 24:32-33. I asked, did Jesus privately tell his disciples, the ones in front of him, “when YOU see all these things, then YOU know it is near, right at the door”?
Saying Jesus talked to his disciples about the tribulation that anyone may go through doesn’t answer the question. The answer is simply yes you think Jesus did say this to his disciples in private or no, you don’t believe jesus said this to his disciples in private.
I did NOT ask what you personally think is meant by the end of the age NOR did I ask what you personally think the last hour means. So, again you are not addressing the point I made, upon which you foisted yourself.
I simply asked did the disciples state the following
- “The coming of the Lord has drawn near”
- “The coming will be in a little while and without delay”
- “The end of all things has drawn near”
- “It IS the last hour”
You telling me what you believe is meant by the last hour doesn’t answer the question: did the disciples make the above statements.
I’ve been following this thread and you quoted Eusebius which got me thinking.
Matthew 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
The words “shall be taken”<3880> occurs 50 times and can have several different meanings. One meaning is to receive something transmitted, to receive with the mind. If I insert that meaning into Matthew 24:40 it says Then shall two be in the field; the one shall receive with the mind, and the other left.
Eusebius seems to be saying only the worthy people received the information about fleeing. What do you think? Is it possible that Matthew 24:40 was fulfilled and Eusebius described that fulfillment?
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