The Relationship Between Israel and the Church

[WPM]

Everything should be treated as literal, unless there is a logical reason not to. Just like the phrase, "God owns the cattle on a thousand hills" is a true literal statement and only an idiot would think "AHA, but he doesn't own more than that!"

According to who?

You avoid the multiple evidence that forbids your claims.

 

[Earburner]

5)

Imo, when God breathed into man He was giving him both air and a spirit, as God is a spirit and we are in His image. Our soul is who we are, how we are and will be known. Our spirit is what is eternal and I believe Paul when he said, "to be absent from the body is to be present w/ the Lord". There are several passages that show the eternalness of man.

Of course, what I am about to say will sound outrageous, not because it is 100% logical and truthful, but rather because we all have have been duped, and then beat to a pulp by Church-ianity's supposition and mantra about it, for thousands of years!!

Why is it that the Christian Religious denominations want to avoid speaking the truth, that the human brain/mind is THE SOUL of our being of flesh, and "the LIFE OF the flesh IS IN the blood", which is Oxygen. Lev. 17:11.

While Adam was unconscious laying on the earth, his body was fully and totally created, having the millions of individual living cells within his body, each one newly created by God, waiting for the first breath of their lives, called Oxygen.

Without Oxygen, all those millions of cells would die in a few minutes, thus killing off God's new creation, before the brain cells could be engaged to enable Adam to become an autonomous living soul.

EDIT:
Sorry, no where in scripture does it literally say or imply that when God "breathed" into the nostrils of Adam, God gave/imparted to him a part/piece of Himself, being that of His Eternal Holy Spirit.

Yes, by God's own IMAGi-nation, He designed and created us to be in likeness of Himself, but NOT exactly like himself, because He is Spirit only, and therefore has no tangible shape for us to see.

John 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

 

[Trekson]

5)

Of course, what I am about to say sounds outrageous, not because it is 100% logical and truthful, but rather because we all have have been beat to a pulp by Church-ianity's view and mantra about it, for thousands of years!!

Why is it that the Christian Religious denominations want to avoid speaking the truth, that the human brain/mind is the soul of our being of flesh, and "the life of the flesh IS IN the blood", which is Oxygen. Lev. 17:11.

While Adam was laying on the earth, he was fully and totally created, having the millions of individual living cells within his body, each created by God, waiting for the first breath of their lives, called Oxygen. Without it, they all would die in a few minutes, thus killing off God's new creation, before the brain cells could be engaged to enable Adam to become an autonomous living soul.

I didn't deny that, I just didn't stop there!

 

[Earburner]

I didn't deny that, I just didn't stop there!

Ok, then you probably didn't see my edit at the end in post #422.

 

[William Barton]

LoL. You're talking nonsense again. Paul talking about Gentile branches being grafted into the remnant of Israel and sharing with them in the root and fatness of the olive tree does not represent two nations:



It does not show any separation whatsoever therefore the rest is just nonsense because the destiny of the remnant of the natural seed of Jacob whom Paul spoke about in Romans 11 is no different today than it was 2,000 years ago, or ever will be:



Why do you make Paul a liar when he says that the natural branches would be grafted in again IF (I-F) they did not continue in their unbelief?

It's been happening since Paul wrote his epistle to the church in Rome. It's not talking about the entire nation - the entire nation has already been spoken about as the remnant who were not broken off, have not ever been broken off, and never will be broken off. It's that Israel into which believing Gentile branches became grafted, have been grafted into, and always will be grafted into until Christ returns.

It's YOU who turns Israel into two nations.



You seem to think the wild olive branches somehow get grafted out again to become a separate group again after having been grafted in.



You talk such nonsense. The church is the New Testament Temple, made up of Jewish and Gentile believers in Yeshua who are given life and kept joined together BY ONE SPIRIT.

The only way you can have two separate groups is if you have two separate Holy Spirits of God.

Your theology is flawed - and false - because it's not produced by the ONE SPIRIT in the remnant of Israel which includes believing Gentile branches which have been (past tense) grafted into it. Your theology is instead based on an idolatrous determination to re-include natural branches broken off through unbelief, regardless of whether or not those individuals all repent of their unbelief, and your theology therefore calls Paul a liar.

Your theology is in itself produced by your own unbelief. The ONE SPIRIT in the church (New Testament Temple) which is made up of Jews and Gentiles IN CHRIST does not need anyone to undergo genetic "osmosis" in order to share in the root and fatness of the olive tree.

Your entire sermon / commentary in your OP is as flawed as its base, based as it is on unbelief and a desire to have ONE SPIRIT OF GOD requiring a genetic osmosis in order to maintain one body.

The body = the remnant of Israel + the Gentiles who have been (past tense the moment each Gentile person is born OF THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST) grafted in = the New Testament Temple, a.k.a "The Church".

- and your theology betrays your own unbelief. The ONE SPIRIT of Christ is what joins us and maintains our oneness - and your own personal unbelief can never change the fact.

"Church" is an English rendering of Greek ξκλησια (ecclesia) = "those who are called out."

The English word "ecclesiastical" stems from this Greek word εκληδια:

 Greek εκ = "from"
+
καλεω = "call"

i.e. "those who are called out."

See also Matthew 28:14: "Many are called, few are chosen."

 

[William Barton]

"Church" is an English rendering of Greek εκκλησια (εκ = from, καλεω = call), i.e. those who are called from where they were.

"No man comes to me unless the Father draws him" (John 6:44).

 

[Earburner]

Again, from post #422.....Why is it that the Christian Religious denominations want to avoid speaking the truth, that the human brain/mind is THE SOUL of our being of flesh, and "the LIFE OF the flesh IS IN the blood", which is Oxygen. Lev. 17:11.

Well many do have opinions about that but let's look at what the OT and NT reveals.
YES!! The Holy Spirit of God is HOLY.
However, God doesn't just breathe His Holiness of Himself into anything. If that were the case, then all animal life is Holy, for the "breath of life" is in them also.
No, animals are not Holy, and neither are we. Gen. 6:17, 7:15, 7:22. All, in the moment of their creation, were just innocent.
Therefore, ever since the Garden incident,
God can not permanently dwell in anyone who is UN-holy, OT. or NT., who has NOT been sanctified by the shed Blood of Christ, that makes Atonement for their sins.

Did you hear that?? The Holy Spirit of God can not and did not PERMANENTLY dwell in any of the faithful of the OT, nor did they or we receive anything of a Holy, Immortal, eternal soul!

Why?
Heb. 10
4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away [remove] sins.
5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for ALL.

Therefore, all who lived and died under the OLD Covenant NEVER had their sins removed!! Were they forgiven? YES! But only for a period of one year, annually through the temple service of animal sacrifices.
So then, after their mortal death, did they recieve the Gift of Eternal life, and go to Heaven (Paradise)?
Absolutely not!

Why?
John 7:39
(But this spake he of the [Holy] Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

The people of Israel were told to "wait for the Promise that was to COME". Jesus Himself was THAT Promise.... who DID come!!
Jer. 33:14-28
 That is why God had a book of Remembrance (Malachi 3:16-18). It was to remember all the faithful who were of faith in "the Promise that was to come".
You can see them "under the altar" being rewarded with the Gift of Eternal life, when each were given White Robes, which is symbolic of the Gift of the Holy Spirit. Rev. 6:9-11.

That is the true understanding about Enoch, Elijah, Moses etc., who also were written in the book of Remembrance Mal. 3:16-18. They were also of those who were "under the altar".
Yes, your conclusion is correct, they hadn't gone to Paradise either!!
But they did, after they received the Holy Spirit, SOON AFTER Jesus was glorified. John 7:39
Rev. 6:9-11.

Now you know why the thief on the cross said to Jesus: "Remember me when.....".
By faith, he knew that Jesus was THAT Promise that was to come.

So then, what now for all of them??
There names are NOW written in "the Book of Life", who is Jesus.

 

[jeffweeder]

You're making up something the bible doesn't say. They were told to multiply well 'before" the fall.

They were commanded to go forth and multiply in Eden, before the fall.
Adam lay with Eve and she conceived after the fall...... fact.

It is highly likely the obeyed the command to multiply promptly.
What would you do as a newlywed? Disobey?

 

[Trekson]

They were commanded to go forth and multiply in Eden, before the fall.
Adam lay with Eve and she conceived after the fall...... fact.

It is highly likely the obeyed the command to multiply promptly.
What would you do as a newlywed? Disobey?

She continued to conceive "after" the fall but Gen. 3:16 implies that she had had multiple children prior to the fall. If Eve had never had kids prior to the fall, how would she know that one form of conception (quickly and painlessly) would multiply? One can't multiply something from nothing. How would she know that the sorrow of childbirth would be different, if she had never experienced it differently (with joy and gladness)?

 

[jeffweeder]

She continued to conceive "after" the fall but Gen. 3:16 implies that she had had multiple children prior to the fall. If Eve had never had kids prior to the fall, how would she know that one form of conception (quickly and painlessly) would multiply? One can't multiply something from nothing. How would she know that the sorrow of childbirth would be different, if she had never experienced it differently (with joy and gladness)?

You twist so much of God's word to avoid the obvious.

Eve became the mother of all the living after the fall,

20 Adam named his wife Eve, because she would become the mother of all the living.

Any children that existed before the fall would be unaffected by Adam and eve's sin and still be alive in the garden.

 

[Trekson]

You twist so much of God's word to avoid the obvious.

Eve became the mother of all the living after the fall,

20 Adam named his wife Eve, because she would become the mother of all the living.

Any children that existed before the fall would be unaffected by Adam and eve's sin and still be alive in the garden.

Why would you think they would still be in the garden? There was a was a whole world to explore. They would be those Cain was fearful of and, imo, also known as the Sons (and daughters) of God.

 

[jeffweeder]

Why would you think they would still be in the garden?

Access to the tree of life would be a good reason.

 

[Rockerduck]

To the OP. There is not relation between Israel and the Church, which is the body of Christ. Ephesians 1:22-23

 

[WPM]

To the OP. There is not relation between Israel and the Church, which is the body of Christ. Ephesians 1:22-23

Amen!

 

[Trekson]

Access to the tree of life would be a good reason.

I don't think you had to eat it every day. It was probably annual and they mostly had a family reunion at the same time.

 

[jeffweeder]

I don't think you had to eat it every day. It was probably annual and they mostly had a family reunion at the same time.

Eden was also the place prepared for his new man.
Jesus prepares a place for his newly redeemed Glorified man in the Fathers house.
Who would want to leave there?

 

[Trekson]

Eden was also the place prepared for his new man.
Jesus prepares a place for his newly redeemed Glorified man in the Fathers house.
Who would want to leave there?

Personally, I'm hoping for a chance to explore the universe.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

She continued to conceive "after" the fall but Gen. 3:16 implies that she had had multiple children prior to the fall. If Eve had never had kids prior to the fall, how would she know that one form of conception (quickly and painlessly) would multiply? One can't multiply something from nothing. How would she know that the sorrow of childbirth would be different, if she had never experienced it differently (with joy and gladness)?

You really need to ask God for wisdom because you believe a lot of nonsense (James 1:5-7). Your views are based on your wild imagination and not on scripture.

 

[ewq1938]

Eden was also the place prepared for his new man.

That was the garden in Eden, not all of Eden.

Jesus prepares a place for his newly redeemed Glorified man in the Fathers house.
Who would want to leave there?

That place is temporary so the answer would be everyone would want to leave it. The New Earth is the eternal home for all saved and the Trinity. There are scriptures for this if needed.

 

[Earburner]

Any children that existed before the fall would be unaffected by Adam and eve's sin and still be alive in the garden.

Could you please clarify what you mean by "any children that existed before the fall"??
Scripture does not show of any children prior to Cain?
Gen. 4:1 And [after their fall] Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the Lord.

2 And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.