Do we have free will or are we predestined?

[St. SteVen]

Everyone please note she is quoting a Catholic mystic who claims to speak for Jesus.

Worthwhile to point that out. Thanks.
However, she did qualify the quote. (citation)

This begs the question as to whether a mystic in the 1940s can hear from Jesus and quote Him?

The quote is obviously not a part of the authorized canon(s) of scripture. But...
Not sure that disqualifies it from consideration.

 

[St. SteVen]

Good question.
Yes, I don't see predestination related to obtaining eternal life either.

Predestination and free will are obviously contradictory.
The standard evangelical apologetic is to claim that we are predestined by our own free will.
Which seems like double-talk to me. We can't come to Jesus unless we are drawn.
Against our free will.

John 6:44 NIV
“No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them,
and I will raise them up at the last day.

Christianity seem to have this view:

God created humankind to glorify himself in punishing them for their unworthiness.
He hand-selected a few as an Elect, predestined to avoid the destruction he would bring on the vast majority.
And it is not clear why he selected those he did, and bypassed the rest. Random selection?

I prefer this view:

God created humankind in his own image. In the same way human children bear the image of their parents.
Even the terminology informs his relationship with us. God the Father. As the model for human fatherhood.
This parental love informs his plan and good intentions for all of humankind. This longing for family and
togetherness is woven into the human heart. We long for nothing as much as to be safe at home.

 

[Debp]

Worthwhile to point that out. Thanks.
However, she did qualify the quote. (citation)

This begs the question as to whether a mystic in the 1940s can hear from Jesus and quote Him?

The quote is obviously not a part of the authorized canon(s) of scripture. But...
Not sure that disqualifies it from consideration.

The mystic is speaking in first person as if she is Jesus speaking. I think we should be careful about this.

 

[St. SteVen]

The mystic is speaking in first person as if she is Jesus speaking. I think we should be careful about this.

I agree. Thank you for pointing that out.

But as I said...
"This begs the question as to whether a mystic in the 1940s can hear from Jesus and quote Him?"

Do prophets still speak for God (Jesus) today? If so, why not quote Him?

1 Corinthians chapter 14 gives us guidelines about how prophecies (divine messages) should be handled in the church.
Does that still apply today? (or does 1 Corinthians chapter 13 nullify chapter 14?)

 

[Mathētria]

This begs the question as to whether a mystic in the 1940s can hear from Jesus and quote Him?

The quote is obviously not a part of the authorized canon(s) of scripture. But...
Not sure that disqualifies it from consideration.

I don't think it does or should disqualify it from consideration. The canon is a curated account focusing on essential events, teachings and miracles—the minimum necessary for the salvation of hearts. It was never intended to be a complete biography, as John 21:25 explicitly states:

There are also many other things which Jesus did, which if they would all be written, I suppose that even the world itself wouldn’t have room for the books that would be written.

Because the canon is complete but not exhaustive, the real question is not whether God can speak to souls in later centuries, but whether any alleged private revelation is consistent with Scripture and oriented toward Christ. Throughout Christian history, God has indeed illuminated individuals—Augustine, Catherine of Siena, Faustina, and many others—not to add to the deposit of faith, but to help particular generations understand and live it more deeply.

So the issue is recognizing that God remains living and active, and may choose instruments in any age to draw souls closer to Himself. And prudence is always needed with private revelation. But we should also avoid the opposite error—assuming that God could never or would never interact with anyone outside the scriptural period. Many—including myself—have reasons to believe that Maria Valtorta was one such instrument, whom He used to illuminate the Gospel and spiritual truths through the visions and speech she reported.

I am not asking anyone to treat her writings as canon, only to evaluate them by the same criteria used for all private revelations: Do they harmonize with Scripture, and do they bear good fruit?

 

[talons]

In this transcript dated October 23, 1948, Jesus—according to Maria Valtorta—explained free will, as well as predestination to grace and glory. I’ve quoted His words from The Little Notebooks:

Here is the quote you made in a box I can't quote you from , words attributed to Jesus from Maria Voltorta .

"All men without exception are predestined to grace, since I died for all.

Those who remain faithful—at least to the natural law of the Good—are predestined to glory. Thus at the end of the ages, each one who has lived as a just man, will have his reward."
***************************************************************************************************
Where in the bible did Jesus say "All men without exception are predestined to grace " ?

Where did Jesus talk about "those who remain faithful at least to the natural law of good are predestined to glory " ?

Do they harmonize with Scripture, and do they bear good fruit?

It looks doubtful on harmonize .

https://www.ewtnnews.com/world/europe/vatican-clarifies-that-writings-of-maria-valtorta-are-not-of-supernatural-origin

 

[St. SteVen]

Where in the bible did Jesus say "All men without exception are predestined to grace " ?

Titus 2:11 ESV
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

John 1:29 NIV
... The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said,
“Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

1 Timothy 4:10 NIV
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God,
who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

Where did Jesus talk about "those who remain faithful at least to the natural law of good are predestined to glory " ?

Romans 2:14-16
(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law,
do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves,
even though they do not have the law.
15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts,
their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes
accusing them and at other times even defending them.)
16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets
through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

 

[Mathētria]

Here is the quote you made in a box I can't quote you from , words attributed to Jesus from Maria Voltorta .

"All men without exception are predestined to grace, since I died for all.

Those who remain faithful—at least to the natural law of the Good—are predestined to glory. Thus at the end of the ages, each one who has lived as a just man, will have his reward."

Where in the bible did Jesus say "All men without exception are predestined to grace " ?

Where did Jesus talk about "those who remain faithful at least to the natural law of good are predestined to glory " ?

You quoted only the opening sentences and left out the rest of the passage, which explains the meaning.

The text does not claim Jesus said these words during His earthly ministry. It’s private revelation, which never adds to Scripture.

When you include the full context, it becomes clear that the passage affirms:

• universal salvific will (1 Timothy 2:4)
• free will is never overridden (Deuteronomy 30:19; Joshua 24:15; Revelation 3:20)
• predestination here refers to God’s foreknowledge (Romans 8:29; 1 Peter 1:2; Isaiah 46:10)
• the need for perseverance (Matthew 24:13; Revelation 2:10; Romans 2:6-7)
• the equality of grace offered to all (Romans 2:11; Titus 2:11; Acts 10:34-35)
• those who live according to the natural law of good and remain faithful will be glorified (Matthew 24:13; Acts 10:34-35; Romans 2:14-16; Revelation 2:10)

The objection only works if the rest of the passage is omitted.

It looks doubtful on harmonize .

https://www.ewtnnews.com/world/euro...maria-valtorta-are-not-of-supernatural-origin

The Dicastery of the Doctrine of the Faith's statement that Valtorta’s writings “cannot be regarded as having supernatural origin” is being misrepresented. That phrasing does not mean “the Church condemns them” or “the Church forbids Catholics from believing them.” It means exactly what it says: the Church has not made a declaration of supernatural origin — which is the case for the vast majority of private revelations, including many widely read and respected ones.

If you want to avoid misinformation, the most recent clarifications about the DDF's statement are worth reading. They directly address the myths that keep circulating: Maria Valtorta and the 2025 Vatican Statement: Clarifying Myths, Facts & Supernatural Status. And, if you're interested, a substantial body of evidence supporting a supernatural origin of her writings can be found here: A Summa and Encyclopedia to Maria Valtorta’s Extraordinary Work.

 

[Armour of God]

You quoted only the opening sentences and left out the rest of the passage, which explains the meaning.

The text does not claim Jesus said these words during His earthly ministry. It’s private revelation, which never adds to Scripture.

When you include the full context, it becomes clear that the passage affirms:

• universal salvific will (1 Timothy 2:4)
• free will is never overridden (Deuteronomy 30:19; Joshua 24:15; Revelation 3:20)
• predestination here refers to God’s foreknowledge (Romans 8:29; 1 Peter 1:2; Isaiah 46:10)
• the need for perseverance (Matthew 24:13; Revelation 2:10; Romans 2:6-7)
• the equality of grace offered to all (Romans 2:11; Titus 2:11; Acts 10:34-35)

The objection only works if the rest of the passage is omitted.



The Dicastery of the Doctrine of the Faith's statement that Valtorta’s writings “cannot be regarded as having supernatural origin” is being misrepresented. That phrasing does not mean “the Church condemns them” or “the Church forbids Catholics from believing them.” It means exactly what it says: the Church has not made a declaration of supernatural origin — which is the case for the vast majority of private revelations, including many widely read and respected ones.

The DDF has repeatedly clarified that:

• Valtorta’s writings are permitted to be read
• Catholics are free to form their own judgment about them

If you want to avoid misinformation, the most recent clarifications from the DDF are worth reading. They directly address the myths that keep circulating: Maria Valtorta and the 2025 Vatican Statement: Clarifying Myths, Facts & Supernatural Status. And, if you're interested, a substantial body of evidence supporting a supernatural origin of her writings can be found here: A Summa and Encyclopedia to Maria Valtorta’s Extraordinary Work.

You keep referring to this Maria Valtorta expecting everyone else to accept her word as the the word of God.
I'm sorry but it's just not a very good argument. It's actually a very poor argument when your using non-biblical references

 

[Mathētria]

You keep referring to this Maria Valtorta expecting everyone else to accept her word as the the word of God.
I'm sorry but it's just not a very good argument. It's actually a very poor argument when your using non-biblical references

I’m not asking anyone to accept Maria Valtorta as Scripture.
In fact, I explicitly said the opposite — this is private revelation, which is non‑binding and never adds to Scripture, but it remains divinely inspired.

The person I originally replied to asked:
“Where did Jesus say these things in the Bible?”

My point was simply that the ideas expressed in the passage are already taught in Scripture, even if the wording comes from a private revelation. That’s why I listed the scriptural passages.

For example:

• “All men are predestined to grace” corresponds to the universal salvific will (1 Timothy 2:4)
• “Those who remain faithful… are predestined to glory” corresponds to Jesus's teaching found in Scripture about perseverance unto salvation (Matthew 24:13; Revelation 2:10)
• And the reference to those who follow the good they know corresponds to Paul’s teaching on the natural law written on the heart (Romans 2:14-16)

So I’m not appealing to Valtorta as an authority above Scripture.
I’m showing that the ideas Jesus expressed through her are already present in Scripture.

And the original objection doesn’t hold once the full context of the passage is included.

 

[Armour of God]

So I’m not appealing to Valtorta as an authority above Scripture

To be honest, that's how it's appeared to be at times

 

[St. SteVen]

You keep referring to this Maria Valtorta expecting everyone else to accept her word as the the word of God.
I'm sorry but it's just not a very good argument. It's actually a very poor argument when your using non-biblical references

Keep referring?
The post you quoted was loaded with scripture references.

 

[Mathētria]

To be honest, that's how it's appeared to be at times

How so? I’ve never said that Maria Valtorta’s writings are canonical. I’ve consistently said they’re private revelation — non‑binding, subordinate to Scripture, and divinely inspired in the sense that God can and has illuminated His own Gospel and spiritual truths without adding to Scripture. So I’m not sure what gave that impression.

 

[talons]

I’m not asking anyone to accept Maria Valtorta as Scripture.

You are trying your best to get us to believe Jesus said these words to Maria Voltorta . Because you capitalized HIS in the quote below .

In this transcript dated October 23, 1948, Jesus—according to Maria Valtorta—explained free will, as well as predestination to grace and glory. I’ve quoted His words from The Little Notebooks:

You quoted only the opening sentences and left out the rest of the passage, which explains the meaning.

The text does not claim Jesus said these words during His earthly ministry. It’s private revelation, which never adds to Scripture.

When you include the full context, it becomes clear that the passage affirms:

• universal salvific will (1 Timothy 2:4)
• free will is never overridden (Deuteronomy 30:19; Joshua 24:15; Revelation 3:20)
• predestination here refers to God’s foreknowledge (Romans 8:29; 1 Peter 1:2; Isaiah 46:10)
• the need for perseverance (Matthew 24:13; Revelation 2:10; Romans 2:6-7)
• the equality of grace offered to all (Romans 2:11; Titus 2:11; Acts 10:34-35)
• those who live according to the natural law of good and remain faithful will be glorified (Matthew 24:13; Acts 10:34-35; Romans 2:14-16; Revelation 2:10)

The objection only works if the rest of the passage is omitted.

What Maria is offering to us is a rehash of scripture with Jesus saying things he never said in the Bible . No thanks .

The Dicastery of the Doctrine of the Faith's statement that Valtorta’s writings “cannot be regarded as having supernatural origin” is being misrepresented. That phrasing does not mean “the Church condemns them” or “the Church forbids Catholics from believing them.” It means exactly what it says: the Church has not made a declaration of supernatural origin — which is the case for the vast majority of private revelations, including many widely read and respected ones.

That is heavy SPIN .

 

[rwb]

Titus 2:11 ESV
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

John 1:29 NIV
... The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said,
“Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

1 Timothy 4:10 NIV
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God,
who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

Does Scripture affirm the opinion that "all" means without exception, or does it confirm "all" without distinction? IOW "all" meaning Gentiles as well as Jews?

Luke 13:23-24 (KJV) Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them, Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

Matthew 7:14 (KJV) Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Romans 2:14-16
(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law,
do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves,
even though they do not have the law.
15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts,
their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes
accusing them and at other times even defending them.)
16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets
through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

How does this passage prove those who keep the natural law are predestined to glory? Many from Old did what the Law required, but they died in unbelief because they keeping the Law apart from faith cannot bring any man to glory.

 

[rwb]

You quoted only the opening sentences and left out the rest of the passage, which explains the meaning.

The text does not claim Jesus said these words during His earthly ministry. It’s private revelation, which never adds to Scripture.

What does Scripture tell us of those who come with private revelation, saying it is from the Word of God?

2 Peter 1:20-21 (KJV) Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:

Titus 2:11 ESV
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

John 1:29 NIV
... The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said,
“Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

1 Timothy 4:10 NIV
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God,
who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

Does Scripture affirm the opinion that "all" means without exception, or does it confirm "all" without distinction? IOW "all" meaning Gentiles as well as Jews?

The scripture I quoted would be all without exception.

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
Romans 2:14-16
(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law,
do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves,
even though they do not have the law.
15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts,
their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes
accusing them and at other times even defending them.)
16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets
through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

How does this passage prove those who keep the natural law are predestined to glory?

It should be obvious.

"... Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things
required by the law, they are a law for themselves..."

"... their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes
accusing them and at other times even defending them."

"This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets
through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares."

 

[Mathētria]

You are trying your best to get us to believe Jesus said these words to Maria Voltorta . Because you capitalized HIS in the quote below.

In this transcript dated October 23, 1948, Jesus—according to Maria Valtorta—explained free will, as well as predestination to grace and glory. I’ve quoted His words from The Little Notebooks:

The capitalization isn’t an attempt to make anyone accept the text as Scripture. It’s simply standard English convention when referring to Jesus in a devotional or theological context.

What Maria is offering to us is a rehash of scripture with Jesus saying things he never said in the Bible . No thanks .

That’s fine if you’re not interested in private revelation.
My point wasn’t that anyone has to accept it.

What I was addressing was the claim that the passage contradicts Scripture. It doesn’t — the ideas in it are already found in Scripture, which is why I listed the scriptural references.

Whether you personally find private revelation helpful is a separate question. My argument was simply about what the text actually says and whether the objection was based on an incomplete quotation.

The Dicastery of the Doctrine of the Faith's statement that Valtorta’s writings “cannot be regarded as having supernatural origin” is being misrepresented. That phrasing does not mean “the Church condemns them” or “the Church forbids Catholics from believing them.” It means exactly what it says: the Church has not made a declaration of supernatural origin — which is the case for the vast majority of private revelations, including many widely read and respected ones.

The DDF has repeatedly clarified that:

• Valtorta’s writings are permitted to be read
• Catholics are free to form their own judgment about them

If you want to avoid misinformation, the most recent clarifications from the DDF are worth reading. They directly address the myths that keep circulating: Maria Valtorta and the 2025 Vatican Statement: Clarifying Myths, Facts & Supernatural Status. And, if you're interested, a substantial body of evidence supporting a supernatural origin of her writings can be found here: A Summa and Encyclopedia to Maria Valtorta’s Extraordinary Work.

That is heavy SPIN .

Nothing I said is “spin.” I stated the DDF’s actual wording and what it means in standard Church usage.

“Cannot be regarded as having supernatural origin” simply means the Church has not made a declaration of supernatural origin — which is true for the vast majority of private revelations.

And the DDF has explicitly said that Catholics are permitted to read Valtorta and free to form their own judgment. Those are just the facts.

If you believe something I said was inaccurate, feel free to point to the specific line. Otherwise, calling it “spin” doesn’t address the substance.

 

[talons]

Titus 2:11 ESV
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

John 1:29 NIV
... The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said,
“Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

1 Timothy 4:10 NIV
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God,
who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.


Romans 2:14-16
(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law,
do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves,
even though they do not have the law.
15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts,
their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes
accusing them and at other times even defending them.)
16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets
through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

I was seeking where did Jesus say those things that Maria attributed to him . He did not say those things in the Bible .
You know some bibles have Jesus's words in RED LETTERS .