The Flawed Reasoning Of Total Depravity

[marks]

If Calvin was right about him you and several others hate God with a passion.

And is that what you think?

Deut. 30:1-6
1 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the Lord thy God hath driven thee,

2 And shalt return unto the Lord thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul;
3 That then the Lord thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the Lord thy God hath scattered thee.
4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the Lord thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:
5 And the Lord thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.
6 And the Lord thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

Interestingly, this passage you've chosen that God will circumcise their hearts that they may live is preceeded by the people returning to God.

Much love!
Mark

 

[Nancy]

Hi Nancy,

I think the next progression of thought is to understand the end-game for both of these doctrines.

On the total depravity/limited atonement side, God ends up with those He made to love Him. On the "whosoever" side, God ends up with those who want to love Him.

Much love!
Mark

Amen to that! And since The Gospel is "good news"...it must be good news to ALL people...

 

[marks]

Amen to that! And since The Gospel is "good news"...it must be good news to ALL people...

Hey . . . isn't that what the angel said?

 

[Nancy]

Hey . . . isn't that what the angel said?

Oh gosh, thought I'd heard that somewhere! lol.

 

[SovereignGrace]

John 1
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Those who received Jesus, those who believed in His Name, to those Jesus gave the right to become God's children.

Receiving . . . believing . . . birth.



I didn't even know what love was really until I saw God's love at work in me.

Much love!
Mark

John 1:13 qualifies that those who love Him, who receive Him, were born of Him. It couldn’t be any clearer if it tried to.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Hi Nancy,

I think the next progression of thought is to understand the end-game for both of these doctrines.

On the total depravity/limited atonement side, God ends up with those He made to love Him. On the "whosoever" side, God ends up with those who want to love Him.

Much love!
Mark

The unregenerate don’t love Him. What part of that can’t you grasp? They consider the preaching of the cross as nothing more than foolishness.

You are saying they love Him and then He saves them. Wrong. Flat out wrong.

 

[SovereignGrace]

And is that what you think?

Deut. 30:1-6
1 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the Lord thy God hath driven thee,

2 And shalt return unto the Lord thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul;
3 That then the Lord thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the Lord thy God hath scattered thee.
4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the Lord thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:
5 And the Lord thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.
6 And the Lord thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

Interestingly, this passage you've chosen that God will circumcise their hearts that they may live is preceeded by the people returning to God.

Much love!
Mark

This was written solely to God’s ppl. It wasn’t written to the Amorites, Ammonites, Hivites, Hittites, Jebusites, Moabites, Philistines, Assyrians, Syrians, Egyptians, &c.

 

[Nancy]

John 1
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Those who received Jesus, those who believed in His Name, to those Jesus gave the right to become God's children.

Receiving . . . believing . . . birth.



I didn't even know what love was really until I saw God's love at work in me.

Much love!
Mark

"12 But as many as received him," I guess the Bible must be wrong here, as...is not "receiving" works??

 

[marks]

The unregenerate don’t love Him. What part of that can’t you grasp? They consider the preaching of the cross as nothing more than foolishness.

You are saying they love Him and then He saves them. Wrong. Flat out wrong.

That's not what I said.

 

[SovereignGrace]

That's not what I said.

Yes it is.

Hi Nancy,

I think the next progression of thought is to understand the end-game for both of these doctrines.

On the total depravity/limited atonement side, God ends up with those He made to love Him. On the "whosoever" side, God ends up with those who want to love Him.

Much love!
Mark

You’re averring they love Him and then they’re saved. Wrong. Flat out wrong.

No one in their unregenerate state love Him. Only those born of Him love Him. [John 1:13 & 1 John 4:7]

 

[marks]

This was written solely to God’s ppl. It wasn’t written to the Amorites, Ammonites, Hivites, Hittites, Jebusites, Moabites, Philistines, Assyrians, Syrians, Egyptians, &c.

Hi SG,

Dave was mentioning this passage to say that the circumcision preceded their living, I posted the full context to show that the circumcision was after they returned to the Lord, so it doesn't really support the argument.

Much love!

 

[Nancy]

That's not what I said.

Circles...and intellectual dishonesty.
I'll stick to the obvious in the scriptures and am very happy that you also do marks.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Hi SG,

Dave was mentioning this passage to say that the circumcision preceded their living, I posted the full context to show that the circumcision was after they returned to the Lord, so it doesn't really support the argument.

Much love!

And this was addressing the ppl of God, not all mankind indiscriminately, is my point. So, yes, it does support the argument.

 

[marks]

Yes it is.
(I wrote:
Hi Nancy,

I think the next progression of thought is to understand the end-game for both of these doctrines.

On the total depravity/limited atonement side, God ends up with those He made to love Him. On the "whosoever" side, God ends up with those who want to love Him.

Much love!
Mark)

You’re averring they love Him and then they’re saved. Wrong. Flat out wrong.

No one in their unregenerate state love Him. Only those born of Him love Him. [John 1:13 & 1 John 4:7]

That's not what I said.

I said He "ends up with" those who want to love Him, not that everyone automatically has a great love for God upon their salvation.


Much love!

 

[marks]

Circles...and intellectual dishonesty.
I'll stick to the obvious in the scriptures and am very happy that you also do marks.

Could be an honest misunderstanding . . .

Much love!

 

[marks]

And this was addressing the ppl of God, not all mankind indiscriminately, is my point. So, yes, it does support the argument.

Really? I didn't realize that you were supporting repentance before circumcision of the heart.

If that's so, then this has been a terrific misunderstanding!

Of course, this is none-the-less looking at a covenant made between God is the Israelites at Mount Horeb.

Much love!
Mark

 

[SovereignGrace]

Really? I didn't realize that you were supporting repentance before circumcision of the heart.

If that's so, then this has been a terrific misunderstanding!

Of course, this is none-the-less looking at a covenant made between God is the Israelites at Mount Horeb.

Much love!
Mark

It’s circumcision of the heart that brings repentance, as both are done by God.

 

[SovereignGrace]

That's not what I said.

I said He "ends up with" those who want to love Him, not that everyone automatically has a great love for God upon their salvation.


Much love!

Still, if He ends up with ppl who love Him, and then out of their love for Him, He saves them, that’s wrong.

The new birth, and new birth alone, is what wroughts the love of God in their heart.

 

[marks]

It’s circumcision of the heart that brings repentance, as both are done by God.

Except that in this passage, circumcision comes after repentance.

They return to the Lord, and THEN the Lord will circumcise their hearts. That's in this passage anyway.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Still, if He ends up with ppl who love Him, and then out of their love for Him, He saves them, that’s wrong.

The new birth, and new birth alone, is what wroughts the love of God in their heart.

You are still arguing a Straw Man.

I am not saying I loved God before I was saved. I'm saying I believed the Bible to be true, that Jesus rose from the dead, and He is my rightful master. Loving came much later.

I'm not saying people love God, and then God saves them. I'm saying people receive God, and then God saves them. To you receiving Jesus is a work for which I think I'm supposed to be rewarded. For me receiving Jesus is surrender, the cessation of work.

You are claiming that I say we love first, I'm saying that God loves first, and we decide whether or not to yield to Him, to receive Him.

You've re-worded my assertion into something it's not, and then argued against that thing.

But for a real debate or discussion, you would need to address the actual thing I wrote.

Much love!
Mark