Some Questions About Mary

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April_Rose

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I've asked these questions before on various forums and have received various answers (that I can't really remember) but I really want to know what you guys think.



1. What if Mary had said that she didn't want to give birth to Jesus?
2. Why was she a virgin and did she have to be for the prophecy to come true? (The Bible states that she had other children though.)
 

Mungo

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I've asked these questions before on various forums and have received various answers (that I can't really remember) but I really want to know what you guys think.



1. What if Mary had said that she didn't want to give birth to Jesus?
2. Why was she a virgin and did she have to be for the prophecy to come true? (The Bible states that she had other children though.)

In haven't got much time tonight so I will pick up on one small point and let others answer the main points.
Nowhere does the Bible state that Mary had other children.
 
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April_Rose

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In haven't got much time tonight so I will pick up on one small point and let others answer the main points.
Nowhere does the Bible state that Mary had other children.






Uh yes it does. I can at least remember James and Jesus' unnamed sisters.
 

quietthinker

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I've asked these questions before on various forums and have received various answers (that I can't really remember) but I really want to know what you guys think.



1. What if Mary had said that she didn't want to give birth to Jesus?
2. Why was she a virgin and did she have to be for the prophecy to come true? (The Bible states that she had other children though.)

Your first question is way out there. I imagine she wouldn't have done....God is not one to force choices. The truth is she saw it as a high honour.

Sex is something quiet different than putting one's finger up ones nose. It is important to learn to understand what the factor is in sex that makes it different otherwise it'll be seen as not much different to putting one's finger up one's nose.

Without understanding this, desire rules and vision is shuttered.

re Mary's other children....She either had children with Joseph after Jesus was born (which I believe) or Joseph was older and a widower with children from a previous union.

The idea that Mary was a perpetual virgin, ie, she never had sex with Joseph after the birth of Jesus is a myth.
 

April_Rose

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Considering how She was created by God to be (see below), and remained thus of Her own free will, it would have been uncharacteristic for Her to choose to disobey God the Father.



Jesus said:

"The Supreme Mind, that knows everything, before man existed, knew that man would be a thief, and self-murderer. And, as the Eternal Goodness has no limits in being good, before Guilt existed, He thought of the means to obliterate Guilt. The means: I, the Word. The instrument to render the means an efficient instrument: Mary. And, the Virgin was created in the sublime mind of God.

The sublime victory of God over Satan's revenge was to raise the perfection of the beloved creature to a super-perfection that should annul at least in one person all recollection of humanity, liable to Satan's poison, so that the Son should be generated not by a man's chaste embrace, but by a divine embrace that causes the spirit to change color in the ecstasy of the Fire.

The Virgin's Virginity!...

Come. Contemplate this deep virginity that gives ecstatic dizziness in its contemplation! What is the poor enforced virginity of a woman that no man married? Less than nothing. What is the virginity of a woman who wanted to be a virgin to belong to God, but is so in her body, and not in her spirit, where she allows alien thoughts to enter, and entertains allurements of human thoughts? It is a sham virginity. But, still very little. What is the virginity of a cloistered nun who lives only for God? Very much. But, it is never the perfect virginity when compared with My Mother's.

There has always been an association, also in the most holy one. The original association between spirit and fault. The one that only Baptism dissolves. It dissolves it, but as in the case of a woman separated from her husband by his death, it does not render virginity complete such as it was in the First Parents before sin. A scar remains, and hurts causing one to remember it, and it is always ready to become a sore, like certain diseases that periodically are made worse by their virus. In the Virgin there is no sign of this dissolved association with the Fault. Her soul appears beautiful, and intact as when the Father conceived Her, gathering all graces in Her.

She is the virgin. She is the Only One. She is the Perfect One. The Complete One. Conceived as such. Generated as such. Remained such. Crowned such. Eternally such. She is the Virgin. She is the acme of intangibility, of purity, of grace that is lost in the Abyss from which it emerged: in God: most perfect Intangibility, Purity, Grace.

That is the revenge of the God Trine and One. Against creatures desecrated He raises this Star to perfection. Against pernicious curiosity He raises this Coy Virgin, contented only with loving God. Against the science of evil, this sublime Innocent Virgin. In Her there is not only no knowledge of dejected love: there is not only non-acquaintance with the love that God had given to married people. Much more. In Her there is the absence of incentives, the inheritance of sin. In Her there is only the icy, and white-hot wisdom of divine love. A fire that strengthens the flesh with ice, so that it may be a transparent mirror at the alter where God married a Virgin, and does not lower Himself because His perfection embraces Her perfection, which, as it becomes a bride, is only inferior to His by one point, subject to Him as a Woman, but without fault as He is." (The Poem of the Man-God: Volume I, by Maria Valtorta)

Now, it was said by the prophet, Isaiah, the Savior would be born of a virgin (7:14). This becomes a condition for fulfilling the prophecy. If she were not a virgin, then this would not be a valid prophecy.

Regarding the Blessed Virgin Mary, and the idea she had other children, first, the words "brother" (ἀδελφός, Adelphos),"brothers" (ἀδελφοὶ, Adelphoi), "sister", and "sisters", have a range of meanings. Therefore, those who believe Mat. 13:55-56 and Mk. 6:3, for example, proves Jesus had biological siblings should explain why the context surrounding the word "brothers" and "sisters" in those verses supports the "biological siblings" definition specifically, rather than any of the others.

I would argue they do not for the following reasons: in Mat. 13:55 and Mk. 6:3, Simon, Joseph, James, and Judas Thaddeus are identified as brothers. In Mat. 10:3, Mk. 3:18, Mk. 15:40, Lk. 6:15-16, and Acts. 1:13, James, and Judas Thaddeus, are again identified as brothers, but also as the sons of Alphaeus, and Mary. In Jn. 19:25, the Blessed Virgin Mary, and Mary of Cleophas, are identified as sisters, and the name "Alphaeus" is a variant of the name "Cleophas". Therefore, the Blessed Virgin's sister-in-law, Mary, was the wife of Alphaeus, St. Joseph's brother, and their sons were: Simon, Joseph, and the apostles James (the Less, the brother of the Lord), and Judas Thaddeus, thus Jesus's cousins. The sisters of Jesus refer to women disciples.








So then in layman's terms??
 
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quietthinker

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Considering how She was created by God to be (see below), and remained thus of Her own free will, it would have been uncharacteristic for Her to choose to disobey God the Father.



Jesus said:

"The Supreme Mind, that knows everything, before man existed, knew that man would be a thief, and self-murderer. And, as the Eternal Goodness has no limits in being good, before Guilt existed, He thought of the means to obliterate Guilt. The means: I, the Word. The instrument to render the means an efficient instrument: Mary. And, the Virgin was created in the sublime mind of God.

The sublime victory of God over Satan's revenge was to raise the perfection of the beloved creature to a super-perfection that should annul at least in one person all recollection of humanity, liable to Satan's poison, so that the Son should be generated not by a man's chaste embrace, but by a divine embrace that causes the spirit to change color in the ecstasy of the Fire.

The Virgin's Virginity!...

Come. Contemplate this deep virginity that gives ecstatic dizziness in its contemplation! What is the poor enforced virginity of a woman that no man married? Less than nothing. What is the virginity of a woman who wanted to be a virgin to belong to God, but is so in her body, and not in her spirit, where she allows alien thoughts to enter, and entertains allurements of human thoughts? It is a sham virginity. But, still very little. What is the virginity of a cloistered nun who lives only for God? Very much. But, it is never the perfect virginity when compared with My Mother's.

There has always been an association, also in the most holy one. The original association between spirit and fault. The one that only Baptism dissolves. It dissolves it, but as in the case of a woman separated from her husband by his death, it does not render virginity complete such as it was in the First Parents before sin. A scar remains, and hurts causing one to remember it, and it is always ready to become a sore, like certain diseases that periodically are made worse by their virus. In the Virgin there is no sign of this dissolved association with the Fault. Her soul appears beautiful, and intact as when the Father conceived Her, gathering all graces in Her.

She is the virgin. She is the Only One. She is the Perfect One. The Complete One. Conceived as such. Generated as such. Remained such. Crowned such. Eternally such. She is the Virgin. She is the acme of intangibility, of purity, of grace that is lost in the Abyss from which it emerged: in God: most perfect Intangibility, Purity, Grace.

That is the revenge of the God Trine and One. Against creatures desecrated He raises this Star to perfection. Against pernicious curiosity He raises this Coy Virgin, contented only with loving God. Against the science of evil, this sublime Innocent Virgin. In Her there is not only no knowledge of dejected love: there is not only non-acquaintance with the love that God had given to married people. Much more. In Her there is the absence of incentives, the inheritance of sin. In Her there is only the icy, and white-hot wisdom of divine love. A fire that strengthens the flesh with ice, so that it may be a transparent mirror at the alter where God married a Virgin, and does not lower Himself because His perfection embraces Her perfection, which, as it becomes a bride, is only inferior to His by one point, subject to Him as a Woman, but without fault as He is." (The Poem of the Man-God: Volume I, by Maria Valtorta)

Now, it was said by the prophet, Isaiah, the Savior would be born of a virgin (7:14). This becomes a condition for fulfilling the prophecy. If she were not a virgin, then this would not be a valid prophecy.

Regarding the Blessed Virgin Mary, and the idea she had other children, first, the words "brother" (ἀδελφός, Adelphos),"brothers" (ἀδελφοὶ, Adelphoi), "sister", and "sisters", have a range of meanings. Therefore, those who believe Mat. 13:55-56 and Mk. 6:3, for example, proves Jesus had biological siblings should explain why the context surrounding the word "brothers" and "sisters" in those verses supports the "biological siblings" definition specifically, rather than any of the others.

I would argue they do not for the following reasons: in Mat. 13:55 and Mk. 6:3, Simon, Joseph, James, and Judas Thaddeus are identified as brothers. In Mat. 10:3, Mk. 3:18, Mk. 15:40, Lk. 6:15-16, and Acts. 1:13, James, and Judas Thaddeus, are again identified as brothers, but also as the sons of Alphaeus, and Mary. In Jn. 19:25, the Blessed Virgin Mary, and Mary of Cleophas, are identified as sisters, and the name "Alphaeus" is a variant of the name "Cleophas". Therefore, the Blessed Virgin's sister-in-law, Mary, was the wife of Alphaeus, St. Joseph's brother, and their sons were: Simon, Joseph, and the apostles James (the Less, the brother of the Lord), and Judas Thaddeus, thus Jesus's cousins. The sisters of Jesus refer to women disciples.
the more the words, the less the meaning!
 

farouk

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I've asked these questions before on various forums and have received various answers (that I can't really remember) but I really want to know what you guys think.



1. What if Mary had said that she didn't want to give birth to Jesus?
2. Why was she a virgin and did she have to be for the prophecy to come true? (The Bible states that she had other children though.)
@April_Rose Mary actually felt very honoured. "My soul doth magnify the Lord, and my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour" (Luke 1.47)
 
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April_Rose

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It is not overly complex. I think the "layman" should not struggle with any of it, unless you are just complaining about its length?






Actually it is for me as I got learning disabilities.
 

JohnDB

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Our blessed mother of eternal suffering and perpetual virginity...

Good greif!

To have a husband but never enjoy the fruits of being married and having children?

Children were a mother's retirement program. Even Peter's mother in law lived with him.
That was just the culture of the day. It wasn't a bad thing either.
To be perpetually teased and tempted to have physical intimacy with a lawful partner but never actually engage in it? That sounds like hell to me.

But whatever...
For israelite women children were always desired. Moms didn't get custody of the kids in divorce cases.
But kids always seem to take care of "mom" best that they could.

And raising a child for God, that was the ultimate in having the best of the best kids. It was considered unmerited extreme favor for her to have Jesus...to have God's ear and attention was extremely good.
 
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April_Rose

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Be that as it may, I think you are capable of extrapolating from this text the meaning, and purpose behind the Blessed Mary's Virginity.




No I'm not and you're starting to sound just a tad bit mean now. :(




Our blessed mother of eternal suffering and perpetual virginity...

Good greif!

To have a husband but never enjoy the fruits of being married and having children?

Children were a mother's retirement program. Even Peter's mother in law lived with him.
That was just the culture of the day. It wasn't a bad thing either.
To be perpetually teased and tempted to have physical intimacy with a lawful partner but never actually engage in it? That sounds like hell to me.

But whatever...
For israelite women children were always desired. Moms didn't get custody of the kids in divorce cases.
But kids always seem to take care of "mom" best that they could.

And raising a child for God, that was the ultimate in having the best of the best kids. It was considered unmerited extreme favor for her to have Jesus...to have God's ear and attention was extremely good.






I meant why was she a virgin when she gave birth to Jesus. I don't believe that she was an eternal virgin.
 

Ziggy

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Psa 30:1 [[A Psalm and Song at the dedication of the house of David.]] I will extol thee, O LORD; for thou hast lifted me up, and hast not made my foes to rejoice over me.
Psa 30:2 O LORD my God, I cried unto thee, and thou hast healed me.
Psa 30:3 O LORD, thou hast brought up my soul from the grave: thou hast kept me alive, that I should not go down to the pit.
Psa 30:4 Sing unto the LORD, O ye saints of his, and give thanks at the remembrance of his holiness.
Psa 30:5 For his anger endureth but a moment; in his favour is life: weeping may endure for a night, but joy cometh in the morning.
Psa 30:6 And in my prosperity I said, I shall never be moved.
Psa 30:7 LORD, by thy favour thou hast made my mountain to stand strong: thou didst hide thy face, and I was troubled.
Psa 30:8 I cried to thee, O LORD; and unto the LORD I made supplication.
Psa 30:9 What profit is there in my blood, when I go down to the pit? Shall the dust praise thee? shall it declare thy truth?
Psa 30:10 Hear, O LORD, and have mercy upon me: LORD, be thou my helper.
Psa 30:11 Thou hast turned for me my mourning into dancing: thou hast put off my sackcloth, and girded me with gladness;
Psa 30:12 To the end that my glory may sing praise to thee, and not be silent. O LORD my God, I will give thanks unto thee for ever.

Luk 1:46 And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,
Luk 1:47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.
Luk 1:48 For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.
Luk 1:49 For he that is mighty hath done to me great things; and holy is his name.
Luk 1:50 And his mercy is on them that fear him from generation to generation.
Luk 1:51 He hath shewed strength with his arm; he hath scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts.
Luk 1:52 He hath put down the mighty from their seats, and exalted them of low degree.
Luk 1:53 He hath filled the hungry with good things; and the rich he hath sent empty away.
Luk 1:54 He hath holpen his servant Israel, in remembrance of his mercy;
Luk 1:55 As he spake to our fathers, to Abraham, and to his seed for ever.
 

April_Rose

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I am expressing my confidence in you.



Well thank you but it didn't sound like it.




Psa 30:1 [[A Psalm and Song at the dedication of the house of David.]] I will extol thee, O LORD; for thou hast lifted me up, and hast not made my foes to rejoice over me.
Psa 30:2 O LORD my God, I cried unto thee, and thou hast healed me.
Psa 30:3 O LORD, thou hast brought up my soul from the grave: thou hast kept me alive, that I should not go down to the pit.
Psa 30:4 Sing unto the LORD, O ye saints of his, and give thanks at the remembrance of his holiness.
Psa 30:5 For his anger endureth but a moment; in his favour is life: weeping may endure for a night, but joy cometh in the morning.
Psa 30:6 And in my prosperity I said, I shall never be moved.
Psa 30:7 LORD, by thy favour thou hast made my mountain to stand strong: thou didst hide thy face, and I was troubled.
Psa 30:8 I cried to thee, O LORD; and unto the LORD I made supplication.
Psa 30:9 What profit is there in my blood, when I go down to the pit? Shall the dust praise thee? shall it declare thy truth?
Psa 30:10 Hear, O LORD, and have mercy upon me: LORD, be thou my helper.
Psa 30:11 Thou hast turned for me my mourning into dancing: thou hast put off my sackcloth, and girded me with gladness;
Psa 30:12 To the end that my glory may sing praise to thee, and not be silent. O LORD my God, I will give thanks unto thee for ever.

Luk 1:46 And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,
Luk 1:47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.
Luk 1:48 For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.
Luk 1:49 For he that is mighty hath done to me great things; and holy is his name.
Luk 1:50 And his mercy is on them that fear him from generation to generation.
Luk 1:51 He hath shewed strength with his arm; he hath scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts.
Luk 1:52 He hath put down the mighty from their seats, and exalted them of low degree.
Luk 1:53 He hath filled the hungry with good things; and the rich he hath sent empty away.
Luk 1:54 He hath holpen his servant Israel, in remembrance of his mercy;
Luk 1:55 As he spake to our fathers, to Abraham, and to his seed for ever.







So what do all of those verses mean in regard to my question?
 

quietthinker

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It is not overly complex. I think the "layman" should not struggle with any of it, unless you are just complaining about its length?
It is nothing more than attempt to pull the wool over one's eyes. It is making and has made a mountain out of a molehill of which the molehill is exceptionally ordinary.
 
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JohnDB

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The reason she was a virgin is because it was God's will that Jesus was born.
Not because Mary had a husband
Not because she had had sex.
Not for any reason than other than God the Father was Jesus' daddy.
 

April_Rose

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It is nothing more than attempt to pull the wool over one's eyes. It is making and has made a mountain out of a molehill of which the molehill is exceptionally ordinary.



Umm,.. how am I supposed to take this comment?



The reason she was a virgin is because it was God's will that Jesus was born.
Not because Mary had a husband
Not because she had had sex.
Not for any reason than other than God the Father was Jesus' daddy.






Sounds like a good enough answer for me then. :)
 
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quietthinker

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The reason she was a virgin is because it was God's will that Jesus was born.
Not because Mary had a husband
Not because she had had sex.
Not for any reason than other than God the Father was Jesus' daddy.
God chose Mary for his own reasons....those reasons are not divulged. Certain ones have taken an ordinary mortal with ordinary passions of which Mary is and deified her. It has been done in the tradition as of all pagan religions .....that has got to be saying something about those who deified her!
 

quietthinker

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By that standard, the Bible has less meaning.
Ouch.
when the time is considered (1500 yrs) over which the scriptures were written....the history they cover.....the scantness of many accounts......the words are indeed few.