Idolatry and the like in Catholicism

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Hidden In Him

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But as for this part "let me just straight up tell you no way is right to try to dominate over someone and their faith." You can't dominate a person, yes, but 2 Timothy 2 speaks on gentle correction and it is within our responsibility to speak out on the matters of God.

"Gently instruct those who oppose the truth. Perhaps God will change those people’s hearts, and they will learn the truth."


There are two sides to this, however. Sometimes those walking in authority will come with a rod of discipline. It is not "gentle" imagery, and it is most certainly not a pleasant experience, as is clear by the fact that it is directly contrasted to dealing with someone gently in the following passage:

18 Now some are puffed up, as though I were not coming to you. 19 But I will come to you shortly, if the Lord wills, and I will know, not the word of those who are puffed up but the power. 20 For the kingdom of God is not in word but in power. 21 What do you want? Shall I come to you with a rod, or in love and a spirit of gentleness? (1 Corinthians 4:18-21)
 

dev553344

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This stems from a conversation between myself and @soul

So it isn't my goal to attack anyone but to approach this in a friendly open manner. So if we could have a friendly debate that would be nice.

So my main concerns with Catholicism are as follows:

1. Idolatry

I believe Catholics are committing the sin of idolatry with literal idols of the Virgin Mary and by praying for to the saints for intercession, when Christ is our intercessor. I say that there is nothing in the Bible that says to do so, rather Jesus taught to pray to the Father.

2. Idolatry and Greed

believe the large elaborate churches and the Holy See are another unnecessary form of idolatry, although I will not say some Christian churches are not guilty of the same.

Why? "The son of man had no place to rest his head." Also the part with the knocking the tables over. "You have turned my house into a den of thieves."

Also, the Pope is not Jesus.

3. Necromancy

By communication with the dead that is not praying. It is necromancy and mediumship, which was a sin so terrible in Biblical times, you were to be killed for it.

4. Demonic Invitation

I believe through necromancy and false beliefs many visitations are inaccurate as underlined in the character of how Satan works in 2 Thess 2. While the chapter may not be in direct correlation with the subject at hand, I am only saying that the chapter describes the character and explanation of how he works with false wonders and false miracles.

5. Church History

It's a downright mess. Including the long time covering up of child abuse, which still exists.

I watch Catholic Mass when I can't get to my church and it is fine. I find the Catholic Mass very professionally conducted. I'm not a fan for back street religion like some red letter and evangelic, etc.

I've been to the Catholic church and their members are mostly good people which is a reflection of the fruit of that church. Catholic people are doing just fine so I doubt there is anything regarding the issues you speak of.

Demonic possession might be an issue as I see it with communicating with the dead, so you might have a point there. I only pray to The Father in the name of Jesus the Christ. I'm not a fan of praying to anyone but God. And I have been visited by Angels and they have proven to me that they are Angels of God.

Anyone that has a cross around their neck could be guilty of idolatry in my opinion. I don't wear or worship the cross as it is a sign of the traitor against Jesus and desiring him to be killed from the earth so we can have earthly leadership instead. While he had to die, it wasn't the crucifixion that ultimately caused his sacrifice. As he instructed us, he alone had power to lay down his life and take it up again (John 10:18). So why worship the cross that had no effect on his sacrifice but physical and emotional suffering and humiliation towards Jesus? Hmmm, that should stir up some responses :)

There are abuse allegations in any church as well as many churches hide abuse allegations. The bigger the church the more allegations that church will have. Boy scouts got their dose recently and it is not a demonic church either. The problem is that the predators infiltrate the organizations that they benefit from, which is church and child care, Boy and Girl scouts, etc.
 
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DuckieLady

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Demonic possession might be an issue as I see it with communicating with the dead, so you might have a point there. I only pray to The Father in the name of Jesus the Christ. I'm not a fan of praying to anyone but God. And I have been visited by Angels and they have proven to me that they are Angels of God
You touch on an interesting point here.

Why does it seem like out of any religion or culture that Catholics deal with exorcisms the MOST?

Christians might be oppressed, but not possessed, and we are certainly not powerless.

I do not wear a cross. I don't think it is sinful, but I want my actions to be louder. My faith is not for fashion or the body - it is for my spirit, but I think it depends on the heart.

Out of curiosity how do the angels prove it? I for a long time thought if they said "Jesus is Lord" or nice things it was from God, turned out demons can say whatever they want and even in the Bible they called Jesus what he was through the possessed man.

I am familiar with the Boy Scouts thing - acquainted with two victims that are taking part in the lawsuit.
 
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dev553344

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You touch on an interesting point here.

Why does it seem like out of any religion or culture that Catholics deal with exorcisms the MOST?

Christians might be oppressed, but not possessed, and we are certainly not powerless.

I do not wear a cross. I don't think it is sinful, but I want my actions to be louder. My faith is not for fashion or the body - it is for my spirit, but I think it depends on the heart.

Out of curiosity how do the angels prove it? I for a long time thought if they said "Jesus is Lord" or nice things it was from God, turned out demons can say whatever they want and even in the Bible they called Jesus what he was through the possessed man.

I am familiar with the Boy Scouts thing - acquainted with two victims that are taking part in the lawsuit.

I had an angel visit me and say that I didn't have to eat breakfast because my father, who I was going to visit, was going to feed me sausage for breakfast. I was like "OK that's strange". And when I got to my Dad's he had bought some odd german sausage from the store that morning and wanted me to try it so he gave me some. Point being that if a thing comes true it is of God because he and he alone can make it come true if it's a good thing. If it's an evil thing than Satan may or may not be able to make it come true depending on whether or not God will allow that evil to come to pass. Also I have had Angels proclaim the resurrection to me. The two scriptures that deal with discernment are these:

We are to try out the spirits, so no the Catholic communion with angels and spirits isn't evil, it's talked about in the bible:

1 John 4:1-5

King James Version

4 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

If a true spirit of prophecy speaks to you or human prophet it will come to pass, here is the scripture that spells out we need not fear the false prophets:

Deuteronomy 18:22

When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.
 
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Taodeching

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This stems from a conversation between myself and @soul

So it isn't my goal to attack anyone but to approach this in a friendly open manner. So if we could have a friendly debate that would be nice.

So my main concerns with Catholicism are as follows:

1. Idolatry

I believe Catholics are committing the sin of idolatry with literal idols of the Virgin Mary and by praying for to the saints for intercession, when Christ is our intercessor. I say that there is nothing in the Bible that says to do so, rather Jesus taught to pray to the Father.


No, Idolatry is worship just like anything can be idolatry. Having statues are not idolatry or God would be guilty of idolatry in the OT with the statues of the cherubs and he statue of the snake in the wilderness. The statues Catholics have, the icons that te Orthodox have are no different then the picture of a long dead relative or friend you have. Do you worship the picture, even if you talk to it? No it is a reminder of what went before.

2. Idolatry and Greed

believe the large elaborate churches and the Holy See are another unnecessary form of idolatry, although I will not say some Christian churches are not guilty of the same.

Why? "The son of man had no place to rest his head." Also the part with the knocking the tables over. "You have turned my house into a den of thieves."

So it is wrong to want to make the best things for God? Sports can have great things but God can't have great things built for Him by grateful Christians. Just because many protestant groups hate nice things, the majority of Christians don't

Also, the Pope is not Jesus.

The only one that thinks this are protestant and evangelicals, and keep promoting many lies like these, Catholics know he is not

3. Necromancy

By communication with the dead that is not praying. It is necromancy and mediumship, which was a sin so terrible in Biblical times, you were to be killed for it.

So you serve a god of the dead then? Christians do not and everyone in Heaven are more alive then we are. It is not just Catholics that ask the Saints to pray for them but so do Anglicans, Orthodox, and other Christians. Asking the great cloud of witnesses to pray is no different than you asking a friend to pray. The problem is protestant think words only have the meaning they attach to it. Pray means to ask, it is not something religious. When you go to a friend and ask them to pray yourpraying to them. Look up the definitions

4. Demonic Invitation

I believe through necromancy and false beliefs many visitations are inaccurate as underlined in the character of how Satan works in 2 Thess 2. While the chapter may not be in direct correlation with the subject at hand, I am only saying that the chapter describes the character and explanation of how he works with false wonders and false miracles.

See the above for this absolute myth

5. Church History

It's a downright mess. Including the long time covering up of child abuse, which still exists.

So is Protestantism and evangelicalism, dang those things are satanic then. For 1500 hundred years in the west he church was one then the great rebellion happened
 

dev553344

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You touch on an interesting point here.

Why does it seem like out of any religion or culture that Catholics deal with exorcisms the MOST?

Christians might be oppressed, but not possessed, and we are certainly not powerless.

I do not wear a cross. I don't think it is sinful, but I want my actions to be louder. My faith is not for fashion or the body - it is for my spirit, but I think it depends on the heart.

Out of curiosity how do the angels prove it? I for a long time thought if they said "Jesus is Lord" or nice things it was from God, turned out demons can say whatever they want and even in the Bible they called Jesus what he was through the possessed man.

I am familiar with the Boy Scouts thing - acquainted with two victims that are taking part in the lawsuit.

In my last post I indicated that communion with the dead was covered in the bible. I should also say this, the bible points out the passage of the dead, I communicate with Angels and God, and spirits of God, but I don't communicate with the dead unless their resurrected. The passage that deals with this clearly indicates that the dead either get sent to paradise or prison and can't communicate with the living, and I would add that they can after they are resurrected:

Luke 16:19-31

King James Version

19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
 

DuckieLady

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I had an angel visit me and say that I didn't have to eat breakfast because my father, who I was going to visit, was going to feed me sausage for breakfast. I was like "OK that's strange". And when I got to my Dad's he had bought some odd german sausage from the store that morning and wanted me to try it so he gave me some. Point being that if a thing comes true it is of God because he and he alone can make it come true if it's a good thing. If it's an evil thing than Satan may or may not be able to make it come true depending on whether or not God will allow that evil to come to pass. Also I have had Angels proclaim the resurrection to me. The two scriptures that deal with discernment are these:

We are to try out the spirits, so no the Catholic communion with angels and spirits isn't evil, it's talked about in the bible:

1 John 4:1-5

King James Version

4 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

If a true spirit of prophecy speaks to you or human prophet it will come to pass, here is the scripture that spells out we need not fear the false prophets:

Deuteronomy 18:22

When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.
I would agree that hearing from angels isn't always a bad thing, but we shouldn't pray to them.
 

DuckieLady

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In my last post I indicated that communion with the dead was covered in the bible. I should also say this, the bible points out the passage of the dead, I communicate with Angels and God, and spirits of God, but I don't communicate with the dead unless their resurrected. The passage that deals with this clearly indicates that the dead either get sent to paradise or prison and can't communicate with the living, and I would add that they can after they are resurrected:

Luke 16:19-31

King James Version

19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
Where is the dead talking to the living in this? It seems that he was denied communication because the law was already written.
 

DuckieLady

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No, Idolatry is worship just like anything can be idolatry. Having statues are not idolatry or God would be guilty of idolatry in the OT with the statues of the cherubs and he statue of the snake in the wilderness. The statues Catholics have, the icons that te Orthodox have are no different then the picture of a long dead relative or friend you have. Do you worship the picture, even if you talk to it? No it is a reminder of what went before.



So it is wrong to want to make the best things for God? Sports can have great things but God can't have great things built for Him by grateful Christians. Just because many protestant groups hate nice things, the majority of Christians don't



The only one that thinks this are protestant and evangelicals, and keep promoting many lies like these, Catholics know he is not



So you serve a god of the dead then? Christians do not and everyone in Heaven are more alive then we are. It is not just Catholics that ask the Saints to pray for them but so do Anglicans, Orthodox, and other Christians. Asking the great cloud of witnesses to pray is no different than you asking a friend to pray. The problem is protestant think words only have the meaning they attach to it. Pray means to ask, it is not something religious. When you go to a friend and ask them to pray yourpraying to them. Look up the definitions



See the above for this absolute myth



So is Protestantism and evangelicalism, dang those things are satanic then. For 1500 hundred years in the west he church was one then the great rebellion happened
okay.

If you share with me one verse that says to pray to the saints in the Bible, I will repent and pray to Saint Paul right now.

Just one. Shouldn't be hard. There's 66 books from front to back. Plenty of room.
 

dev553344

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I would agree that hearing from angels isn't always a bad thing, but we shouldn't pray to them.

I would tend to agree. On the note of evils that people do in the name of Christianity, I also never say/swear that I'm saved as a see that as saying/swearing by heaven that I am saved. I proclaim God as the judge that can save me after I die. He can resurrect us and bring us into his presence in heaven :) Cheers.

Matthew 5:33-34

King James Version

33 Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:

34 But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:
 

dev553344

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Where is the dead talking to the living in this? It seems that he was denied communication because the law was already written.

I would tend to agree, but the dead are not dead when they have been resurrected. But as far as them that have died and brought into Abraham's bosom, they clearly cannot communicate with the living and them in prison also.

I believe that Angel's are resurrected beings in some cases. And we know that the resurrected can visit the living:

Matthew 27:52-53

New King James Version

52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.
 

DuckieLady

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I would tend to agree, but the dead are not dead when they have been resurrected. But as far as them that have died and brought into Abraham's bosom, they clearly cannot communicate with the living and them in prison also.

I believe that Angel's are resurrected beings in some cases. And we know that the resurrected can visit the living:

Matthew 27:52-53

New King James Version

52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.
In the story of the Witch of Endor, Saul asks the Witch to raise up the prophet Samuel. Why would he consult a witch if he could pray to him? And Samuel tells him he disturbed his rest.

The Bible says that the dead are asleep and will be resurrected at the end.

Here's a few verses that explain:


"The dead do not praise the LORD, nor any who go down into silence "
Psalm 115:17

"Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the grave, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom"

Ecclesiastes 9:10


Now He is God not of the dead, but of the living; for to Him all of them are alive

Luke 20:38
 

Philip James

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Have no fear. I know it doesn't exist.

Hello Fluffy,

I just gave you one.

Here is another:

I urge you, (brothers,) by our Lord Jesus Christ and by the love of the Spirit, to join me in the struggle by your prayers to God on my behalf

The communion of the saints is real! We pray for one another and are not ashamed to ask (pray) our brothers and sisters pray for us!

Peace be with you!

Christ is risen!
Alleluia!
 
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