Was Adam Imparted Free Will From The Beginning Of Creation?

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Kermos

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Kermos says:
No scripture indicates that Adam and Eve had a freewill, and for a person to believe that Adam and Eve had a freewill is to add freewill to scripture[/Quote\]

What is free will, simply put isn't it having the ability to choose to obey or disobey God? Adam was capable of either obeying the command to not eat of the forbidden tree or to be disobedient to that command. Are you saying that Adam wasn't capable of obeying or disobeying God when God created him/them?

As the original post clearly states "The following is carefully presented proof establishing Adam was formed with intent not endowed with free will".

No scripture states that Adam was endowed with the ability to choose to obey God.

God prophesied that Adam would eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 2:17), so there was no doubt that Adam would disobey the command not to eat.

If you have any question, then please return to the original post.
 

BARNEY BRIGHT

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As the original post clearly states "The following is carefully presented proof establishing Adam was formed with intent not endowed with free will".

No scripture states that Adam was endowed with the ability to choose to obey God.

God prophesied that Adam would eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 2:17), so there was no doubt that Adam would disobey the command not to eat.

If you have any question, then please return to the original post.


You don't have a clue what the scriptures say if you truly believe that Genesis 2:17 is a prophecy of God saying Adam would disobey The command to not eat of the forbidden tree. Basically you're saying that God gave Adam an impossible command to obey. God doesn't give any person angel or human an impossible command to obey.
 

GISMYS_7

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You don't have a clue what the scriptures say if you truly believe that Genesis 2:17 is a prophecy of God saying Adam would disobey The command to not eat of the forbidden tree. Basically you're saying that God gave Adam an impossible command to obey. God doesn't give any person angel or human an impossible command to obey.

No one forced Adam to not obey God ===Adam made the choice to not obey God. God is outside time =the Alpha and Omega = the Beginning and the End!!God sees Adam today in the garden and also the last man to ever live on earth.!
 

Tong2020

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Was Adam Imparted Free Will From The Beginning Of Creation?

Yes.

It must be noted however that my view of free will is the freedom to make choices or freedom to desire, different from the freedom to do.

Tong
R2577
 
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Brakelite

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Was Adam imparted free will from the beginning of Creation?
Yes.

AT the time God commanded the man, Adam, not to eat of the tree
Which presupposes his choice not to. Just as we today have a choice not to commit adultery. A commandment does not assume an inability to obey it. The very fact Adam disobeyed proves his independence and his own will super-ceding the will of God. Unless of course you attempt to suggest God's will was that men sin and be condemned as a result, and that God deliberately designed men with that inbuilt unassailable propensity to do so. Calvinists, who seem to believe that such was Calvin's teaching that men have no free will of their own but were created to sin, need to explain why Calvin created a 'theocratic' government in Geneva with the supposed intention to coerce obedience to a philosophy of Godly obedience that contradicts God's will that men should sin.
 

BARNEY BRIGHT

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No one forced Adam to not obey God ===Adam made the choice to not obey God. God is outside time =the Alpha and Omega = the Beginning and the End!!God sees Adam today in the garden and also the last man to ever live on earth.!

If you honestly believe Genesis 2:17 is a prophecy of God saying Adam would be disobedient regarding the forbidden tree, I don't really concern myself with what you're saying concerning the scriptures. There's nothing in Genesis 2:17 that shows it's a prophecy that Adam would be disobedient regarding the eating of the fruit of the forbidden tree. It only says that God told Adam to not eat of the forbidden tree because if he did, he would die.
 

Kermos

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You didn't look at it in the kjv.

Isa 57:15, For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.

Look at the verse in the KJV, Isaiah 57:15 it states "inhabiteth" with means "lives", so these words match between the KJV and NASB.

The next word is "eternity" which means "forever", so these words match between the KJV and NASB.

The word Hebrew source word for "inhabiteth" is Strong's 7931 which means "abides", "lives", "dwells".

The word Hebrew source word for "eternity" is Strong's 5703 which means "eternity", "forever", "perpetuity".

Adonai YHVH lives forever!

Your eisogesis of Isaiah 57:15 does not match the language of the verse. The verse does not state that "God is outside of time".

Now, there is no free will indicated for man in the creation account which is clearly indicated in the original post to this thread.
 

justbyfaith

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Look at the verse in the KJV, Isaiah 57:15 it states "inhabiteth" with means "lives", so these words match between the KJV and NASB.

The next word is "eternity" which means "forever", so these words match between the KJV and NASB.

The word Hebrew source word for "inhabiteth" is Strong's 7931 which means "abides", "lives", "dwells".

The word Hebrew source word for "eternity" is Strong's 5703 which means "eternity", "forever", "perpetuity".

Adonai YHVH lives forever!

Your eisogesis of Isaiah 57:15 does not match the language of the verse. The verse does not state that "God is outside of time".
If you read it in the kjv and do not change it any, it is saying that God does not inhabit time but eternity; or that He dwells in eternity rather than time.

But if you want to argue, I have already made my point and I rest my case with the point that I have made.
 

Kermos

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Clearly, there is free will in man (Joshua 24:15, John 1:12, Revelation 22:17, Revelation 3:20).

Clearly, no scripture states that man is/was endowed with free will to choose God.

Free will or choose God is NOT mentioned in Joshua 24:15.

Free will or choose (or it's conjugates) is NOT mentioned in John 1:12.

Free will or choose is NOT mentioned in Revelation 22:17.

Free will or choose is NOT mentioned in Revelation 3:20.

Adam was not endowed with free will, and no mere person thereafter has been endowed with free will. This is just as the original post states based upon scripture.
 

Kermos

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Good OP. Given the substance and definition of, Free Will, neither Eve ,who ate first, nor Adam, had the capacity to exercise discretion any more than would a newborn given the same command by anyone with great knowledge.
An interesting point that scripture reveals is that Adam was beyond being a newborn infant.

For example, Adam possessed the facility of communication because Adam spoke coherently (Genesis 2:23), so Adam was unlike a newborn in this respect.

As another example, God endowed Adam with cognitive facility because it is written "Out of the ground the YHWH God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the sky, and brought [them] to the man to see what he would call them; and whatever the man called a living creature, that was its name. The man gave names to all the cattle, and to the birds of the sky, and to every beast of the field" (Genesis 2:19-20), so Adam was unlike a newborn in this respect.
 

Webers_Home

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Was Adam imparted free will from the beginning of Creation?
One of the spurious objections to the question is that Adam wasn't
created in the beginning. But Jesus said he was.

Matt 19:4 . . Haven't you read-- he replied --that at the beginning the
Creator made them male and female

So then, Mr. Kermos, do not be deterred. We have it on good authority that
your question is appropriately worded.

Matt 17:5 . . A voice from the cloud said: This is My son, whom I love; with
him I am well pleased. Listen to him!

John 12:49 . . I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me,
He gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
_
 

Kermos

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Thats ridiculous. Everyone everywhere in the world has limited choices. Just because they are under a certain type of government doesn't mean they don't have free will. if that were the case no one could ever decide to overthrow the government...or make any of the other million choices we all make every day.

The absence of scripture citation in your post shows just how unscriptural your thoughts are.

God reigns in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35) according to that of which the prophet Daniel recorded, but not according to the man Renniks who says men decide to overthrow governments, but not according to the man Renniks who says man can choose Jesus of which Renniks thoughts are in direct contradiction to the Word of God.

There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because the Word of God says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also says to Peter, John, James, and Andrew "What I say to you I say to all" (Mark 13:37) with all meaning all His disciples in all time! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8, Psalm 3:8)!

There is no scripture that states Adam was imparted a free will as per the original post, so it goes for all mankind after Adam.
 
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Renniks

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God reigns in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35) according to the prophet Daniel, but not according to the man Renniks who says men decide to overthrow governments, but not according to the man Renniks who says man can choose Jesus of which Renniks thoughts are in direct contradiction to the Word of God
God doing as he will doesn't mean men don't choose. Part of God's will is to allow real choices. It's all through scripture starting with Adam and Eve' s choices.
 

Renniks

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There is no scripture that states Adam was imparted a free will as per the original post, so it goes for all mankind after Adam.
God gave Adam free choices. In other words limited dominion. For example, he allowed Adam to name the animals.
 

Amazed@grace

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Was Adam imparted free will from the beginning of Creation?

The Word of God indicates no based upon both scriptural text and context.

The following is carefully presented proof establishing Adam was formed with intent not endowed with free will.

  1. God issued prophecy about man eating the fruit (Genesis 2:17)
    AT the time God commanded the man, Adam, not to eat of the tree
    AND the consequence of disobedience is declared - that is that death of the man would result in eating from the tree
    YET a command does not convey ability (see also God's Commands Distinguised From Man's Ability)
    BUT the language contains a prophetic construct indicating assurance of occurrence - "for in the day that you eat" - the "for" is promissory
    NOT a conditional logic construct such as "if in the day that you eat"
    IN fact, the English word "for" is translated from the Hebrew word כִּ֗י (ki)
    AND the Hebrew word כִּ֗י™ (ki) contains the meanings of these English words "that", "for", "when" (Strong's Hebrew: 3588. כִּ֗י (ki) -- that, for, when)
    THEREFORE the word "when" fits where the word "for" resides in Genesis 2:17
    THUS the phrase "when in the day that you eat" is an accurate translation for Genesis 2:17
    SO this confirms the promissory nature, the prophecy of man eating the fruit, with the word "for"/"when" in Genesis 2:17
    AND this imposes contextual certainty indicating God's foreknowledge over the matter described in Genesis 2:17
    SO there is no free will indicated for Adam
    AND the firm fact is established
    THAT God reigns in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)
  2. Attributes/Characteristics Compared And Contrasted
    1. Examining attribute as relating to the purported facility of free will in Adam
      WITH a targeted result of logical deductive reasoning leveraging compare and contrast of attributes/facilities
      SINCE Adam was made in the image according to the likeness of God (Genesis 1:26)
      THEN some persons of the creation (creatures) argue that specific facility was given to Adam
      IN particular God willpowering purported free will into man during the creation of Adam
      THEN Adam could not have used free will to perform evil against God
      BECAUSE God will not use willpower in order to perform evil against God's self (Psalm 5:4, Psalm 92:15, Deuteronomy 32:4)
      THEREFORE it follows that Man could not use free will in order to perform evil against God
      1. The logical extension of free will on this basis results in man possessing expanded facilities beyond God's facilities
      2. God is Creator; on the other hand, man is creature
      3. Largely, I use free will to mean man choosing toward God, emphatically Lord Jesus Christ.
      4. Scripture does not include the mention of endowing Adam with free will
      5. Man's free will is a precept of man (Matthew 15:9)
    2. Adam as part of God's Plan of Redemption through the Christ for mankind before the foundation of the world
      SINCE God saw creation was very good on the 6th Day (Genesis 1:31)
      AND God's Plan of Redemption through the Christ for mankind is good (Ephesians 1:1-14,Ephesians 2:13)
      THEN a free will Adam could not have been roaming the Garden of Eden with the ability to choose to obey God's command not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 2:17)
      SINCE the only command carrying a punishment was the prohibition upon Adam against eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil
      THUS a free will Adam could have disrupted God's Plan of Redemption through the Christ for mankind
      SO God could not conclude with certainty by declaring everything was good on the sixth day with a free will Adam in control roaming the Garden of Eden
      THEREFORE it follows that Adam could not be endowed with the attribute of free will
    3. The timeline of Adam knowing good and evil
      BEFORE Adam and Eve ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil
      THEN Adam and Eve knew not good and evil
      AFTER Adam and Eve ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil
      THEN Adam and Eve knew good and evil
      FOR the delineation is clarified when God said "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil" (Genesis 3:22)
      YET based on the Word of God saying "has become" recorded in Genesis 3:22
      THEN Adam did not know good and evil before eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil
      SO Adam did not know good and evil when God issued the command "from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die!" (Genesis 2:17)
      THEREFORE at the time of eating, Adam listened and followed the last that he heard about the tree of the knowledge of good and evil
      WHICH Adam heard from Eve
      FOR God said "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, 'You shall not eat from it'" (Genesis 3:17)
      SO Adam listened to Eve and Adam ate from the tree prior to knowing good and evil
      AND a person does good by obeying God; on the other hand, a person does evil by disobeying God
      SO free will choosing of good or choosing of evil is not the context
      AND action is the context
      SINCE good and evil are not known to Adam prior to eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil
      THEREFORE it follows that Adam was not endowed with the attribute of free will
    4. The attribute of "joining" - marriage
      1. Lord Jesus says a topically very profound statement of "from the beginning of creation, [God] made them male and female. For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother, and the two shall become one flesh; so they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together let no man separate." (Mark 10:6-9)
      2. "God has joined together" is a clear reference by Jesus to Christ and the Bride of Christ
      3. "God has joined together" is a clear reference by Jesus to marriage between "male and female" (creatures both)
      4. "God has joined together" is a clear reference by Jesus to Adam and Eve, the man and the woman
      5. God does the joining, while, on the other hand, man and woman are only the joyful recipients
      6. The facility of "joining" is not attributed to man and/or woman
      7. The facility of "joining" is attributed to God

For expanded topic coverage, please see this integral essay Almighty God's Awesome Creation In Amazing Splendor (not a ChristianityBoard.com link),

If anyone venture a reply to this thread, I encourage diligent care for it is written "do not add to His words or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar" (Proverbs 30:6).

May the Lord abound mercy and understanding and strength and grace in we His own for the Day approaches rapidly!
I think the fact that God is sovereign over all his creation, and predestined all things, tells us Adam may have exercised a choice to eat the fruit Eve offered.

However, that a confluence of events preceeded his choice indicates his will could not be greater than the sovereign will of God who planted the tree.
 

Kermos

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"You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die." (Genesis 3:3). The serpent replied, "You certainly won't die!" (Genesis 3:4).

Your whole concept is absurd to the nth degree.
If no choice exists, then no disobedience is possible.

You wrote "If no choice exists, then no disobedience is possible", but there is NO CHOICE recorded for Adam in the creation account, yet Adam disobeyed, so you are dead wrong in your statement. When Adam disobeyed, it was an action.

So, let's just take a look at item 2.3. in the original post. According to your premise, Adam would have had to know TO CHOOSE between good and evil prior to eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil; in other words, Adam did not know the difference between good and evil until AFTER Adam ate of the tree (Genesis 3:22).

Based on this, your thoughts are misaligned away from the Word of God.
 
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Renniks

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You wrote "If no choice exists, then no disobedience is possible", but there is NO CHOICE recorded for Adam in the creation account, yet Adam disobeyed, so you are dead wrong in your statement. When Adam disobeyed, it was an action.

So, let's just take a look at item 2.3. in the original post. According to your premise, Adam would have had to know TO CHOOSE between good and evil prior to eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil; in other words, Adam did not know the difference between good and evil until AFTER Adam ate of the tree (Genesis 3:22).

Based on this, your thoughts are misaligned away from the Word of God.
No, all Adam had to know was that God told him not to eat and he did. Adam CHOSE to disobey.
Of course, there's a choice recoded in the creation account, don't be ridiculous. Adam took a course of action he didn't have to take.
 

Kermos

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Eve had absolutely no understanding of the ramifications of eating the fruit, nor did Adam. No concept of what it meant to die, nor what forbidden meant, nor what for that matter it would mean in the ultimatum of obey and have life, or disobey and die.

And for that matter, ever wonder why it was deemed forbidden and later wrong , after eating, that Adam and Eve then possessed the same knowledge as that of God? Knowing, good from evil, right from wrong? (??Now that the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil, he must not be allowed to stretch out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.?? Genesis 3:22)
When generations later God sent himself to sacrifice himself in order that those who believe would have eternal life, and while in human form and knowing both good and evil, right and wrong.

Hello WaterSong,

The word used in Genesis 2:16-17 is commanded rather than ultimatum, and that is significant.

Your first paragraph has some resemblence to item 2.3. of the original post to this thread.

You wrote the interrogative "ever wonder why it was deemed forbidden and later wrong".

A reason is in item 2.2. of the original post to this thread.