Nomad
Post Tenebras Lux
Yes, we're well aware of the fact that God, as described by Holy Scripture, is not your God. Your god is a false god created in your own image. Good luck with that.
The Bible
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Yes, we're well aware of the fact that God, as described by Holy Scripture, is not your God. Your god is a false god created in your own image. Good luck with that.
Actually it's not, there's notation there that it may not be inspired nor included in many early texts.
I personally won't ever quote from it (at least on purpose) due to this reason.
Well said. Perfectly said.
Spoken like a true Pharisee - all the Is are dotted and the Ts crossed - everything included, but the love
Aspen said:
So you are redefining Good? to accommodation your small understanding of God? The fact is, your god cannot ever follow His own laws! This has nothing to do with me creating a law and demanding God to follow it - I am just assuming that a Good God would follow His own morality!
Is there anything in scripture that states these are Laws for both man and God? I don't believe there ARE any laws or rules for God....He just is.
He breathed out the universe, and formed us from the very dust. He has existed beyond time, for eternity and will continue to exist. Nothing is lord of Him, nothing even comes close. Do you really think this God, our God needs rules?
The attributes that He chooses to share with us are not moralistic standards that He needs to hold Himself to, they ARE Him!
His IS goodness and love and compassion, yes, but He is also just, judge and wrathful. You say the OT is full of His wrath, poured out over sinful humanity, but the NT ends with it too. The world is under a period of common grace, us Christians under Christ, but the time will come when the world will end and all will be judged.
I know people have a hard time equaling God with wrath, but let me ask you a question.
If you found out that your neighbor had done something so horrendous it defied meaning, how would you react? Lets say (sickeningly) that said neighbor had raped and killed a child.
What do you feel? Rage...sickness....the need for justice! Now, as you, a sinful human feels this, how do you think the God of the universe, who is in His very nature good, how do you think He feels when He is bombarded every day of history with this kind of vile evil? And to make it even worse, to Him even the 'smallest' sin is just as bad....it sickens Him.
I don't think the wonder is that He will pour His wrath out on the world, I think the wonder is that He hasn't already!
So you are redefining Good? to accommodation your small understanding of God? The fact is, your god cannot ever follow His own laws! This has nothing to do with me creating a law and demanding God to follow it - I am just assuming that a Good God would follow His own morality!
Is there anything in scripture that states these are Laws for both man and God? I don't believe there ARE any laws or rules for God....He just is.
He breathed out the universe, and formed us from the very dust. He has existed beyond time, for eternity and will continue to exist. Nothing is lord of Him, nothing even comes close. Do you really think this God, our God needs rules?
The attributes that He chooses to share with us are not moralistic standards that He needs to hold Himself to, they ARE Him!
His IS goodness and love and compassion, yes, but He is also just, judge and wrathful. You say the OT is full of His wrath, poured out over sinful humanity, but the NT ends with it too. The world is under a period of common grace, us Christians under Christ, but the time will come when the world will end and all will be judged.
I know people have a hard time equaling God with wrath, but let me ask you a question.
If you found out that your neighbor had done something so horrendous it defied meaning, how would you react? Lets say (sickeningly) that said neighbor had raped and killed a child.
What do you feel? Rage...sickness....the need for justice! Now, as you, a sinful human feels this, how do you think the God of the universe, who is in His very nature good, how do you think He feels when He is bombarded every day of history with this kind of vile evil? And to make it even worse, to Him even the 'smallest' sin is just as bad....it sickens Him.
I don't think the wonder is that He will pour His wrath out on the world, I think the wonder is that He hasn't already!
Aspen can't even answer people's questions that are trying to have a neutral conversation with him...
Nomad
Post Tenebras Lux
Excellent post Rach. The problem with Aspen is that he/she rejects the notion of a Holy God dealing with his unholy, sinful, rebellious creatures according to strict justice. No, Aspen feels that God owes everyone grace and mercy. That's simply not the God of Scripture.
Hey, I just realized that we have stumbled on a dilemma that has been debated since Plato - The Euthyphro dilemma
Aspen can speak for himself, Nomad.
Aspen can speak for himself, Nomad.
Nomad
Post Tenebras Lux
I just can't help but wonder what happens to heaven then? Do all get in? That would mean having to accept Jesus as savior means nothing. And it would also mean that the unrepentant rapists, murders and evil doers get into heaven. Doesn't sound much like heaven then.
There has to be a point where God, good and just as He is, steps in and says 'enough. I gave you a way out of your sins and you told me you wanted to be your own god. So fine, but that means you have no part of my mercy.' I think there's a quote by C.S Lewis that says it best....
I know this is difficult to understand, but God cannot be 'just' and let evil, unrepentant sinners go on their merry way. Think of what our society would be if the same happened. Murders, abusers, rapists, psychopaths, thieves...all free to continue in their behaviors. What would have happened to the world if Hitler had not been stopped by the nations of the world? Now try and imagine that on a level where God cannot let sin go unpunished. The very nature of being a good and just God means He cannot let sin go unpunished...and for Him to do so would be the same sort of betrayal as you are now imagining a wrathful God to be. You see justice, true justice is not always nice, but it is always good. How on earth could we worship and fully trust a God who only sits on high smiling at the good and ignoring the evil? How could we worship an almighty sovereign God who is bound by human laws and rules? How can we trust a God to make all right in the end if the evil walk free?
Honestly...which is more terrifying? The thought that God wiped evil from the face of the earth, or that the very God we put our souls in is ineffectual?
I don't like contemplating the death of every man, woman and child in those events. But it very much gives me comfort and joy to know that an all knowing and all powerful God....my heavenly Father, is in complete control. He's got it, so I just need to love and trust!
There has to be a point where God, good and just as He is, steps in and says 'enough. I gave you a way out of your sins and you told me you wanted to be your own god. So fine, but that means you have no part of my mercy.' I think there's a quote by C.S Lewis that says it best....
I know this is difficult to understand, but God cannot be 'just' and let evil, unrepentant sinners go on their merry way. Think of what our society would be if the same happened. Murders, abusers, rapists, psychopaths, thieves...all free to continue in their behaviors. What would have happened to the world if Hitler had not been stopped by the nations of the world? Now try and imagine that on a level where God cannot let sin go unpunished. The very nature of being a good and just God means He cannot let sin go unpunished...and for Him to do so would be the same sort of betrayal as you are now imagining a wrathful God to be. You see justice, true justice is not always nice, but it is always good. How on earth could we worship and fully trust a God who only sits on high smiling at the good and ignoring the evil? How could we worship an almighty sovereign God who is bound by human laws and rules? How can we trust a God to make all right in the end if the evil walk free?
Honestly...which is more terrifying? The thought that God wiped evil from the face of the earth, or that the very God we put our souls in is ineffectual?
I don't like contemplating the death of every man, woman and child in those events. But it very much gives me comfort and joy to know that an all knowing and all powerful God....my heavenly Father, is in complete control. He's got it, so I just need to love and trust!
Nope. It sounds like Mormonism is what it sounds like, where even the "worst" level of heaven is a better life.
Wouldn't just be horrible for all of us?!? I mean, we just cannot wait to watch people get what they deserve in that Lake of Fire, right?!?!?!?
There are no levels in Heaven.
Depending on which Mormon you talk to - they believe in 3 to 7 levels
Aspen said:
They both sound scary - what even sounds scarier is spending eternity with a God that is unpredictable because He doesn't follow His own rules and may simply wipe us all out whenever He feels like it
God is in control - and He is moral and trustworthy because He follows His own rules and shows mercy to the unredeemed by sending them to a place where He is not - due to the fact that they cannot tolerate being in His presence.
I think the reason I'm uneasy with you saying that 'God must follow His own rules' is that it puts limitations on Him. God must do nothing but what He chooses and what is His nature. Now, He deems to tell us of some of His attributes in the Bible, but honestly, trying to explain the entirety of God in a finite binding is impossible. He is good and just, true, but can't you allow for the possibility that within the vastness of God, there is some explanation, perhaps out of our purview, that encompasses His wrath as well?
You can't deny that the Bible does speak of His wrath
[sup]22[/sup]for these are[sup][/sup] days of[sup] [/sup]vengeance, to fulfill all that is written. [sup]23[/sup] Alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! For there will be great distress upon the earth and wrath against this people. [sup]24[/sup]They will fall by the edge of the sword and[sup][/sup] be led captive among all nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles,[sup][/sup] until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.(Luke 21:22-24 ESV)
[sup]36[/sup] Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life;[sup][/sup] whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him. (John 3:36 ESV)
God’s Wrath on Unrighteousness
[sup]18[/sup]For the wrath of God[sup][/sup] is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. (Romans 1:18 ESV)
[sup]4[/sup]By no means![sup][/sup] Let God be true though every one were a liar, as it is written,
[sup][/sup] "That you may be justified in your words,
and prevail when you[sup][/sup] are judged."
[sup]5[/sup]But if our unrighteousness serves to show the righteousness of God, what shall we say? That God is unrighteous to inflict wrath on us? (I speak in a human way.) [sup]6[/sup]By no means! For then how could God judge the world? (Romans 3:4-6 ESV)
[sup]5[/sup]But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up[sup][/sup] wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed. (Romans 2:5 ESV)
[sup]8[/sup]but for those who are self-seeking[sup][/sup] and[sup][/sup] do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury. (Romans 2:8 ESV)
[sup]19[/sup]Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it[sup][/sup] to the wrath of God, for it is written,[sup][/sup] "Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord." (Romans 12:19 ESV)
There's just so many references to Gods wrath, It's impossible to ignore! As Christians we are not to eagerly await the terrible judgment on others. This is why the Great Commission is so important, why we should see even evil people as souls that need saving! Hell and wrath are real, and Jesus calls us to spread the word of His grace with speed and urgency!
They both sound scary - what even sounds scarier is spending eternity with a God that is unpredictable because He doesn't follow His own rules and may simply wipe us all out whenever He feels like it
God is in control - and He is moral and trustworthy because He follows His own rules and shows mercy to the unredeemed by sending them to a place where He is not - due to the fact that they cannot tolerate being in His presence.
I think the reason I'm uneasy with you saying that 'God must follow His own rules' is that it puts limitations on Him. God must do nothing but what He chooses and what is His nature. Now, He deems to tell us of some of His attributes in the Bible, but honestly, trying to explain the entirety of God in a finite binding is impossible. He is good and just, true, but can't you allow for the possibility that within the vastness of God, there is some explanation, perhaps out of our purview, that encompasses His wrath as well?
You can't deny that the Bible does speak of His wrath
[sup]22[/sup]for these are[sup][/sup] days of[sup] [/sup]vengeance, to fulfill all that is written. [sup]23[/sup] Alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! For there will be great distress upon the earth and wrath against this people. [sup]24[/sup]They will fall by the edge of the sword and[sup][/sup] be led captive among all nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles,[sup][/sup] until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.(Luke 21:22-24 ESV)
[sup]36[/sup] Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life;[sup][/sup] whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him. (John 3:36 ESV)
God’s Wrath on Unrighteousness
[sup]18[/sup]For the wrath of God[sup][/sup] is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. (Romans 1:18 ESV)
[sup]4[/sup]By no means![sup][/sup] Let God be true though every one were a liar, as it is written,
[sup][/sup] "That you may be justified in your words,
and prevail when you[sup][/sup] are judged."
[sup]5[/sup]But if our unrighteousness serves to show the righteousness of God, what shall we say? That God is unrighteous to inflict wrath on us? (I speak in a human way.) [sup]6[/sup]By no means! For then how could God judge the world? (Romans 3:4-6 ESV)
[sup]5[/sup]But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up[sup][/sup] wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed. (Romans 2:5 ESV)
[sup]8[/sup]but for those who are self-seeking[sup][/sup] and[sup][/sup] do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury. (Romans 2:8 ESV)
[sup]19[/sup]Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it[sup][/sup] to the wrath of God, for it is written,[sup][/sup] "Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord." (Romans 12:19 ESV)
There's just so many references to Gods wrath, It's impossible to ignore! As Christians we are not to eagerly await the terrible judgment on others. This is why the Great Commission is so important, why we should see even evil people as souls that need saving! Hell and wrath are real, and Jesus calls us to spread the word of His grace with speed and urgency!
The fruits of the Spirirt are
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
All these things are from God I guess that is why we are supposed to be led by the Spirit and why He siad Hie words ( spoken ) bring life, for they allow no interpretation.
So i guess all thsi stuff in thsi topic is not from God ..
Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Its amazing the fruit that can come from reading the bible.
All thsi stuff is from the beastly nature we inherited from Adams fall
In His Love
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
All these things are from God I guess that is why we are supposed to be led by the Spirit and why He siad Hie words ( spoken ) bring life, for they allow no interpretation.
So i guess all thsi stuff in thsi topic is not from God ..
Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Its amazing the fruit that can come from reading the bible.
All thsi stuff is from the beastly nature we inherited from Adams fall
In His Love
"I think the reason I'm uneasy with you saying that 'God must follow His own rules' is that it puts limitations on Him. God must do nothing but what He chooses and what is His nature. Now, He deems to tell us of some of His attributes in the Bible, but honestly, trying to explain the entirety of God in a finite binding is impossible. He is good and just, true, but can't you allow for the possibility that within the vastness of God, there is some explanation, perhaps out of our purview, that encompasses His wrath as well?
You can't deny that the Bible does speak of His wrath"
I totally understand the concern and implications for God's sovereignty. Here's the thing, God has already limited Himself - He is a Trinity. He doesn't have to be a Trinity - but He wills it. A moral God wills Himself to follow His own laws. If they were someone else's laws or the laws of the universe or whatever - it would take away from His sovereignty. If He chooses to follow His own laws, however, He is still sovereign.
"There's just so many references to Gods wrath, It's impossible to ignore! As Christians we are not to eagerly await the terrible judgment on others. This is why the Great Commission is so important, why we should see even evil people as souls that need saving! Hell and wrath are real, and Jesus calls us to spread the word of His grace with speed and urgency!"
Hell is certainly real. Wrath is probably going to be sorrow. I really believe that one of the consequences of the Fall is that humans began having to deal with evil and the way we did it was to view the world dualistically. If God was not pleased, He must be totally mad. If the crops failed, God must be angry at our sin! Realistically, societies have always sinned - it is sort of like people speeding on the freeway - cops can pull anyone over at any time because everyone is speeding. Declaring God's wrath whenever things were not going there way was easy to do because sin was always present. There was always room to repent - and people did it when bad things happened. The OT is a valuable source to learn about God's sovereignty and to learn about how humans responded to it - often in sinful or awkward ways. The NT is God's respond to His own sovereignty - and an example to us. We are called to respond by loving ourselves because God loves us; loving God and loving our neighbors. If we respond to Christ's invitation, we receive the Holy Spirit and begin a life-long journey being sanctified, which requires practice and ends in a permanent citizenship in Heaven.
There is certainly an urgency involved - we have the cure to a fatal illness and we need to share it with the world! This involves loving and sharing with people - we promote the most important relationship in our lives with people by developing deep and caring relationships with them. I really believe these relationships are the treasures we are storing up in Heaven.
Selene
New Member
Actually, St. Jerome recognized he apocrypha as canonical, which is why he included them in the Latin Vulgate. The Jewish Council removed 7 books plus parts of Esther and Daniel in the Old Testament forty years AFTER Christ had already died and resurrected from the dead. During the time that Christ was alive, the Scripture that Christ and the Apostles used was the Septuagint", which included the apocrypha books. When the Jewish Council removed those books from the Old Testament, the Early Christians did not follow them. They continued to use those books and refused to follow the Jewish Council.
The Septuagint is the Old Testament referred to in the Didache or "Doctrine of the Apostles" (first century Christian writings) and by Origen, Irenaeus of Lyons, Hippolytus, Tertullian, Cyprian of Carthage, Justin Martyr, St. Augustine and the vast majority of early Christians who referenced Scripture in their writings. The Epistle of Pope Clement, written in the first century, refers to the Books Ecclesiasticus and Wisdom, analyzed the book of Judith, and quotes sections of the book of Esther.
I don't believe that being a Trinity lessens God in any way. How could it? How can anything lessen God? He wouldn't be God then. Now, I don't fully understand the Trinity, I'm not sure that man fully can, but I do know He is absolute...He is that He is!
And I don't believe that God holds to the laws He gave to mankind. I think this for 2 reasons. 1) God lay them down for a race that had fallen, the laws were given so they may strive (but ultimately failing and therefore needing Jesus) to atone for their sins. And 2) God needn't hold Himself to rules of man, like He is needing to exert self control on some of His more unsavory attributes. He is that He is, and what He is, is perfect!
Agreed!!
Nomad
Post Tenebras Lux
Actually, like I said before, he didn't recognize the apocrypha as canonical.
There's more. Do I really need to post it?
Selene
New Member
Selene
New Member
Hi Aspen,
By lessen, do you mean "humble"? I most certainly think that God humbled Himself when He became incarnated as a man. God not only knows "humility", but He also knows it from experience.
A few years ago, when Indonesia had that 9.1 earthquake that caused a tsunami, killing over 200,000 people, many people at that time even wondered if God was angry and caused the earthquake and tsunami. So, what happened in ancient history still happens today. Some people even thought that God punished those countries because they sinned. This, of course, is very far from the truth. Earthquakes and natural disasters happened all the time.
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