How Many Of You Celebrate Christmas?

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

tomwebster

New Member
Dec 11, 2006
2,041
107
0
76
As much as I'd love to take your word for it, I was looking for Scriptural references.


If it was that easy T, we would not be celebrating the birthday of Christ on December 25 because that was the day of His conception. The earliest church knew the dates but they changed them to serve their own purpose. Do some research on the Festival of "Michael and All Angels" celebrated by the early church on the First day of the Feast of Tabernacles. Your beleiving it or not doesn't change it. It is still the truth.
 

TexUs

New Member
Nov 18, 2010
1,197
37
0
If it was that easy T, we would not be celebrating the birthday of Christ on December 25 because that was the day of His conception. The earliest church knew the dates but they changed them to serve their own purpose. Do some research on the Festival of "Michael and All Angels" celebrated by the early church on the First day of the Feast of Tabernacles. Your beleiving it or not doesn't change it. It is still the truth.
So, you're taking a nod to church history to arrive at your conclusions, then?
IE, not a Biblical stance.
 

tomwebster

New Member
Dec 11, 2006
2,041
107
0
76
So, you're taking a nod to church history to arrive at your conclusions, then?
IE, not a Biblical stance.

Have you read anything I have written here. The course of Abia, in Scripture, tells us when Christ was conceived, the birth would have been 9 months later. We do not need a Scripture reference to tell us human gestation takes 9 months. The early church knew when Christ was born, because they celibrated His birth with the Festival of Michael and All Angels. The date had not been hidden at that time, they knew Christ was born on September 25th. Maybe you can understand it. Do you realise Christ fulfilled all of the Feasts of God? The church did not arrange the dates, God chose them.
 

TexUs

New Member
Nov 18, 2010
1,197
37
0
Your inability to answer what would be simple questions tells me that the argument isn't legit.


Where's it say they changed every week?
Where's it say the courses reset after the Feast of the Tabernacles?
 

tomwebster

New Member
Dec 11, 2006
2,041
107
0
76
Your inability to answer what would be simple questions tells me that the argument isn't legit.


Where's it say they changed every week?
Where's it say the courses reset after the Feast of the Tabernacles?



Sometimes a person needs to think on their own. It would also help if you understood the Feast Day and read the ancient Hebrew history. Not all of history is written in Scripture. There were 24 courses every 6 months. Levitical Priests served in the Temple one course every 6 months and they all served during the festivals, some of which lasted a week or more. I'm sorry if you can't figure it out from there. It is not an argument, it's Scripture. You’re believing it or not doesn't matter, it is still true.

Who said anything about the courses resetting after the Feast of Tabernacles?
 

TexUs

New Member
Nov 18, 2010
1,197
37
0
Not all of history is written in Scripture.
So, as I said before and you shot me down... It's then not a Biblical concept and you are relying upon church tradition, yes?


There were 24 courses every 6 months.
But- where in Scripture does it say the frequency with which they changed was every week? Could it not have been every month and they were on a two year cycle? This is my original question... How do we know this?
1 Chronicles 24 doesn't speak of this. It provides the number of courses but that's it.

Who said anything about the courses resetting after the Feast of Tabernacles?
The post you linked to did:
"The "first Course" (Jehoiarib's) started a week after the "Feast of Tabernacles"."

Again, where is this stated in Scripture?



We do not need a Scripture reference to tell us human gestation takes 9 months.
Is this also part of what your dating is based on?
I don't know if you've had any kids, but doctors rarely hit the birth date correctly (Only 4% are born on their due date)... It's usually a day, or two, or more off, which even if you could prove the conception date, the most accurate you could possibly do is "late September" and not the 29th.
 

tomwebster

New Member
Dec 11, 2006
2,041
107
0
76
So, as I said before and you shot me down... It's then not a Biblical concept and you are relying upon church tradition, yes?

No, it is not based on church tradition. AGAIN, as I have said, it is based on LUKE. Christ's conception and birth happen before the church started. The early church knew when Christ was born and they celebrated Christ's birth on September 29th (my earlier suggestion of the 25th was a typo).

But- where in Scripture does it say the frequency with which they changed was every week? Could it not have been every month and they were on a two year cycle? This is my original question... How do we know this?
1 Chronicles 24 doesn't speak of this. It provides the number of courses but that's it.

History of the Livetical Priesthood and common sense.

The post you linked to did:
"The "first Course" (Jehoiarib's) started a week after the "Feast of Tabernacles"."
Again, where is this stated in Scripture?

The Hebrew calendar was a solar calendar, the year started on the Spring solstice, the second half of the year started on the Fall solstice.

By the way, where does Scripture say the earth is round, or, even give any shape of the earth? Where does it talk about Sweden, or England? We find that information in history, should we believe it since it is from a source outside of the Bible?

Is this also part of what your dating is based on?
I don't know if you've had any kids, but doctors rarely hit the birth date correctly (Only 4% are born on their due date)... It's usually a day, or two, or more off, which even if you could prove the conception date, the most accurate you could possibly do is "late September" and not the 29th.

Christ was the perfect Son of God, would a thinking person believe God would use more or less than the perfect gestation period? Who was Mary's Doctor?
 

TexUs

New Member
Nov 18, 2010
1,197
37
0
No, it is not based on church tradition.
The early church knew when Christ was born
You don't see that contradiction?


History of the Livetical Priesthood and common sense.
So once more, this is history based and not Scriptural based?
If you have a Scriptural reference as you claim you do, please post it. That's all I'm waiting for. If you don't, just admit we get it from secular history and I'd be OK with that as well.

Christ was the perfect Son of God, would a thinking person believe God would use more or less than the perfect gestation period? Who was Mary's Doctor?
9 months isn't determined to be a "perfect" gestation period, that's my point. We have no clue. Only 4% are born at 9 months. Ovulation, menstruation periods, diets, the boogie monster, it all comes into affect and nobody really has no idea what a "perfect" gestation period is, 9 months is just the approximate.
So I'm assuming that you didn't say, "No, that's not what I'm assuming", that yes, a 9 month gestation is what you have based your assumptions on and as I said, the best case you can hope for is "late September" if 9 months exactly is what your precise dating is based on.


 

HammerStone

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Feb 12, 2006
5,113
279
83
36
South Carolina
prayerforums.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
If you have a Scriptural reference as you claim you do, please post it. That's all I'm waiting for. If you don't, just admit we get it from secular history and I'd be OK with that as well.

Zing!

The secular history of the church - sorry that one made me chuckle. :lol:

I don't know that I agree wholeheartedly with September 29th as the date, but I'm certainly not going to argue that much over it. A little study will give you a legitimate date range, and yes it does take some extra-biblical figuring to comprehend how the calender of the that time worked. Church tradition is not always right, but at the same time, if church tradition can be reasonably inferred by Scripture then attacking someone over it is not worth it. I guess I just don't understand the passion behind the dispute.
 

aspen

“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Apr 25, 2012
14,111
4,778
113
52
West Coast
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I really do not see why it is important - as long as we recognize that Jesus was really born, lived on earth, ministered to people, and died on a cross for our sins - it is all good.
 

TexUs

New Member
Nov 18, 2010
1,197
37
0
I guess my issue is with absolute claims of Scriptural proof as so:
Christ's birthdate is not lost, it's in Scripture. He was born our September 29. December 25 is the date of His conception. Do a search of this forum and you will be able to read several studies on this topic.
 

tomwebster

New Member
Dec 11, 2006
2,041
107
0
76
I guess my issue is with absolute claims of Scriptural proof as so:

You didn't read this the first time so I don't suppose you will read it this time either, but I'll try again!

The Birth of Christ - (December 25th)? No

---------------------

And here goes...

Let's Start this Lesson In the Book of "(Luke)".
Subject :"The Course of Abia".

...Luke 1:5 THERE was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of "Abia" and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.

...Luke 1:6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

...Luke 1:7 And they had no child, because that Elisabeth was barren, and they both were now well stricken in years.

...Luke 1:8 And it came to pass, that while he executed the priest's office before God
[ in the order of his "course" ],

...Luke 1:9 According to the custom of the priest's office, his lot was to burn incense when he went into the temple of the Lord.

The "Course of Abia" set a Definite Time on the Actual (BIRTH of JESUS), As well as "John the Baptist".

It is used as a Marker for a starting point, ..to this "Blessed Event".

[Question] (Where do we Look to find out about these "Courses")?


[Answer] (1Chronicles 24:1-19)

Below shows the Different "Courses" ,
....(Referred to as Divisions).

......There are "Twenty-Four" Courses (Divisions)in All.

Strong's # 4256 .......(Divisions)
"machaloqeth" [makh-al-o'-keth] from 2505; a section
(of Levites, people or soldiers):--company,
==>(course), <==
==> (division), <==
portion. See also 5555.

1Chronicles 24:1 Now these are the "divisions" of the sons of Aaron. The sons of Aaron; Nadab, and Abihu, Eleazar, and Ithamar.

1Chronicles 24:2 But Nadab and Abihu died before their father, and had no children: therefore Eleazar and Ithamar executed the priest's office.

1Chronicles 24:3 And David distributed them, both Zadok of the sons of Eleazar, and Ahimelech of the sons of Ithamar, according to their offices in their service.

1Chronicles 24:4 And there were more chief men found of the sons of Eleazar than of the sons of Ithamar, and thus were they divided. Among the sons of Eleazar there were sixteen chief men of the house of their fathers, and eight among the sons of Ithamar according to the house of their fathers.

1Chronicles 24:5 Thus were they divided by lot, one sort with another; for the governors of the sanctuary, and governors of the house of God, were of the sons of Eleazar, and of the sons of Ithamar.

1Chronicles 24:6 And Shemaiah the son of Nethaneel the scribe, one of the Levites, wrote them before the king, and the princes, and Zadok the priest, and Ahimelech the son of Abiathar, and before the chief of the fathers of the priests and Levites: one principal household being taken for Eleazar, and one taken for Ithamar.

1Chronicles 24:7 Now the first lot came forth to Jehoiarib, the second to Jedaiah,

1Chronicles 24:8 The third to Harim, the fourth to Seorim,

1Chronicles 24:9 The fifth to Malchijah, the sixth to Mijamin,

1Chronicles 24:10 The seventh to Hakkoz, the eighth to Abijah,

1Chronicles 24:11 The ninth to Jeshuah, the tenth to Shecaniah,

1Chronicles 24:12 The eleventh to Eliashib, the twelfth to Jakim,

1Chronicles 24:13 The thirteenth to Huppah, the fourteenth to Jeshebeab,

1Chronicles 24:14 The fifteenth to Bilgah, the sixteenth to Immer,

1Chronicles 24:15 The seventeenth to Hezir, the eighteenth to Aphses,

1Chronicles 24:16 The nineteenth to Pethahiah, the twentieth to Jehezekel,

1Chronicles 24:17 The one and twentieth to Jachin, the two and twentieth to Gamul,

1Chronicles 24:18 The three and twentieth to Delaiah, the four and twentieth to Maaziah.

1Chronicles 24:19 These were the orderings of them in their service to come into the house of the LORD, according to their manner, under Aaron their father, as the LORD God of Israel had commanded him.

.....About these Priests-

…...There were 24 Priests who were to "Serve" during certain times of the year in the Temple.

Each Priest had One Week of service during their "Course", and they served (Two Times in the year), or "Six Months apart", to fulfill these Duties of the Priest.

(From Sabbath to Sabbath).

This equals 48 weeks.

(Note): The few Remaining Weeks in the year.
All Priests were to Serve During The Special Feast Days (Such as "Passover",
"Feast of Tabernacles", "Day of Atonement", "Etc").


START COUNTING

The "first Course" (Jehoiarib's) started a week after the "Feast of Tabernacles".

"Abia" (Abijah's) Course was the "Eighth Course". So this would set the dates at December and June for these "Courses", or Duties to be Fulfilled by an Appointed Priest (Son of Aaron).

"Zacharias"(John the Baptist's Father) was serving the Duties of (Abia) and that Course and duties.

This was the "Second Part" or Duty of that Course- (June 13-19) of that year
(Luke 1:8-9).

(Luke 1:23)Zacharias had to wait a day because you could not travel on the Sabbath Day long distances.

And by the time Zacharias returned home it was a total of four days later or June 24
(One day layover for Sabbath + Three days Journey home).

So Elisabeth conceived on that day, after Zachariah returned home on (June 24).

...Luke 1:23 And it came to pass, that, as soon as the days of his ministration were accomplished, he departed to his own house.

...Luke 1:24 And after those days his wife Elisabeth conceived, and hid herself five months, saying,

...Luke 1:25 Thus hath the Lord dealt with me in the days wherein he looked on me, to take away my reproach among men.

...Luke 1:26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,

What is being said is This Period of time is "Six Months" from the Date that Gabriel "Originally" spoke to Zacharias.

That would make this "Our" Month of December, ...(June to December = 6 months:).


Six Months After (Luke 1:26), "Gabriel" visited "The Blessed Mary"(This would be December 24/25).

And Announced to Her that "She" would Conceive "Messiah" (Luke 1:31).

So "(December Twenty-Fifth)" is the date of the "Conception of "JESUS CHRIST", (Our Lord and Savior). - not Birth


So what about December 25th, It is an Important date indeed.

(Gathering the world together in a celebration of HIS LIFE, on any day), - is a good work.

Since DECEMBER 25th seems to be this day, to celebrate the LORD'S Birth, so be it.

And "Add to this date "Nine-Months", and the (Birth+Date) of "JESUS/Messiah" is approx, [and believed to be] - September 29th, which would be, within The (Feast of Tabernacles) time-frame.


The Conception Date is Very Important for "All Christians" to Celebrate.

The Conception of "Immanuel", which means ("GOD" With US),......was (December The 25th).

And this is a DAY to CELEBRATE The day GOD began dwelling with MAN.
 

Guestman

Active Member
Nov 11, 2009
618
72
28
70
Texas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I was born into this christmas celebration. Is december 25th the true date of the birth of Jesus Christ?

Jesus was not born on December 25th, as the churches teach and celebrate. It should be noted that when Jesus was born, the "shepherds (were) living out of doors and keeping watches in the night over their flocks.."(Luke 2:8) Around the middle of October, the shepherds take their flocks inside because of the rainy season starting. The book Daily Life in the Time of Jesus states: “The flocks . . . passed the winter under cover; and from this alone it may be seen that the traditional date for Christmas, in the winter, is unlikely to be right, since the Gospel says that the shepherds were in the fields.”—(New York, 1962), Henri Daniel-Rops, p. 228.

It is also noteworthy that during the month of December, Bethlehem and its surroundings are subject to wintry cold weather, chilling rains, and sometimes snow. One does not find shepherds with their flocks outside at night during that time. This is not a recent weather phenomenon. The Scriptures report that Judean king Jehoiakim “was sitting in the winter house, in the ninth month [Chislev, corresponding to November-December], with a brazier burning before him.” (Jeremiah 36:22) He needed the heat to keep warm. Further, at Ezra 10:9, 13 we find clear evidence that the month of Chislev was “the season of showers of rain, and it is not possible to stand outside.” All of this indicates that weather conditions in Bethlehem in December do not fit the Bible’s description of the events connected with the birth of Jesus Christ.(Luke 2:8-11)

(1) Was Jesus Born on December 25?

The custom: According to tradition, Jesus’ birth took place on December 25 and is celebrated on that date. “Christmas,” says the Encyclopedia of Religion, means “‘Christ’s Mass,’ that is, the mass celebrating the feast of Christ’s nativity,” or birth.

Its roots: “The establishment of December 25 evolved not from biblical precedent,” says The Christmas Encyclopedia, “but from pagan Roman festivals held at year’s end,” about the time of the winter solstice in the Northern Hemisphere. Those festivals included the Saturnalia, in honor of Saturn, god of agriculture, “and the combined festivals of two sun gods, the Roman Sol and the Persian Mithra,” says the same encyclopedia. Both birthdays were celebrated on December 25, the winter solstice according to the Julian calendar.

Those pagan festivals began to be “Christianized” in the year 350, when Pope Julius I declared December 25 to be Christ’s birthday. “The Nativity gradually absorbed or supplanted all other solstice rites,” says the Encyclopedia of Religion. “Solar imagery came increasingly to be used to portray the risen Christ (who was also called Sol Invictus), and the old solar disk . . . became the halo of Christian saints.”

What the Bible says: The Bible does not give Jesus’ birth date. But we can safely conclude that he was not born on December 25. How so? The Bible tells us that when Jesus was born, shepherds were “living out of doors” tending their flocks at night in the vicinity of Bethlehem. (Luke 2:8) The cold, rainy season usually began in October, and shepherds—especially in the colder highlands, such as those around Bethlehem—brought their sheep into protected shelters at night. The coldest weather, sometimes accompanied by snow, occurred in December.

It appears that Jesus was born during the ancient Jewish month of Ethanim (September-October).—Insight on the Scriptures, Volume 2, page 56.

(2) The “Wise Men”—How Many? Who Were They?

The custom: Guided by a “star” from the east, three “wise men” are portrayed as presenting gifts to Jesus in a manger in a stable. Sometimes shepherds are also shown as being present.

Its roots: Aside from the brief account in the Bible, “everything written about the Wise Men stems principally from legend,” says The Christmas Encyclopedia.

What the Bible says:
The Bible does not say how many “wise men” visited Jesus. There may have been two, or there may have been three, four, or more. Although termed “wise men” in some Bible translations, the original-language word is magoi, which means astrologers or sorcerers—professions that the Bible says are “detestable to Jehovah.” (Deuteronomy 18:10-12) By virtue of their long journey from the East, the astrologers did not arrive in time to visit Jesus in the stable. Rather, after perhaps months of travel, they “went into the house” where Jesus was staying. There they saw “the young child with Mary its mother.” (Matthew 2:11)

(3) What Sort of Star Led the Astrologers?


Clues are provided by what the star actually did. For one thing, it did not lead the men directly to Bethlehem, but to Jerusalem, where their inquiries about Jesus reached the ears of King Herod. Herod then “secretly summoned the astrologers,” who told him about the newborn “king of the Jews.” Herod then said: “Make a careful search for the young child, and when you have found it report back to me.” Herod’s interest in Jesus, however, was anything but noble. Rather, this proud and ruthless ruler was resolved to put Jesus to death!—Matthew 2:1-8, 16.

Interestingly, the “star” now led the astrologers south to Bethlehem. There “it came to a stop” above the house where Jesus was.—Matthew 2:9, 10.

Clearly this was no ordinary star! And why would God, who had used angels to inform humble shepherds of Jesus’ birth, now employ a star to guide pagan astrologers—first to Jesus’ enemy and then to the child himself? The only reasonable conclusion is that the star was a sinister device of Satan, who is capable of such manifestations. (2 Thessalonians 2:9, 10) Ironically, an ornament called the star of Bethlehem is usually seen at the very top of the Christmas tree.

(4) What Does Santa Claus Have to Do With Jesus and His Birth?


The custom: In many lands, Santa Claus is viewed as the one who brings children gifts. Children often write to Santa, asking for presents, which, according to tradition, elves help him to make at his North Pole headquarters.

Its roots:
According to the popular view, the Santa Claus myth owes its origin to Saint Nicholas, Archbishop of Myra in Asia Minor, now Turkey. “Virtually everything written about St. Nicholas is based on legends,” says The Christmas Encyclopedia. The designation “Santa Claus” may owe its origin to the word Sinterklaas, a corruption of the Dutch terms for “Saint Nicholas.” Historically and Biblically, Santa Claus has nothing in common with Jesus Christ.

What the Bible says: “Now that you have put away falsehood, speak truth each one of you with his neighbor.” Our closest ‘neighbors’ are our family members. (Ephesians 4:25) The Bible also says that we should “love truth,” “speaking the truth in [our] heart.” (Zechariah 8:19; Psalm 15:2) True, telling children that Santa (or the Christ child) is the bearer of presents at Christmas may seem to be innocent fun, but is it right or wise to deceive little children, even if one’s intentions are not bad? Do you not find it ironic that an occasion that is supposedly meant to honor Jesus becomes a time to deceive children?

(5) How Does God View Christmas Gift-Giving and Merrymaking?


The custom:
Christmas giving is unusual in that it largely involves an exchange of gifts, and the Christmas season is marked by partying, feasting, and drinking.

Its roots: Ancient Roman Saturnalian festivities began on December 17 and concluded on the 24th, when gifts were exchanged. Homes and streets were noisy with banqueting, heavy drinking, and riotous behavior. The Saturnalia was followed by an event celebrating the first day of January. This was also observed by a festival, usually lasting about three days. The Saturnalia and the first day of January likely formed one festive occasion.

What the Bible says: Joy and generosity characterize true worship. “Be joyful, you righteous ones; and cry out joyfully,” the Bible says. (Psalm 32:11) Such joy is often associated with generosity. (Proverbs 11:25) “There is more happiness in giving than there is in receiving,” said Jesus Christ. (Acts 20:35) He also said: “Practice giving,” or make it a regular part of your life.—Luke 6:38.

Such giving has little in common with ritualized giving or giving that is compelled, perhaps by social custom. Describing the true spirit of generosity, the Bible states: “Each person should give as he has decided for himself; there should be no reluctance, no sense of compulsion; God loves a cheerful giver.” (2 Corinthians 9:7, The New English Bible) Those who heed these excellent Bible principles give because their generous heart impels them to do so, which can be at any time of the year. To be sure, this kind of giving has God’s blessing, and it is never burdensome.

When examined in the light of the Bible, virtually every facet of Christmas is either pagan in origin or a distortion of the Bible accounts. Hence, Christmas customs are Christian in name only. How did this come about? Centuries after the death of Christ, many false teachers arose, just as the Bible had foretold. (2 Timothy 4:3, 4) Those unprincipled men were more interested in making Christianity fashionable to the pagan masses than they were in teaching truth. Hence, they gradually adopted popular pagan religious festivals and labeled them “Christian.”

(source of most of the information, December 2010 Awake !, from article entitled "The Truth About Christmas", published by Jehovah's Witnesses)