Denominations?

aspen · Dec 26, 2010

marksman said:
Can anyone out there tell me what this has got to do with what I said about leadership. All I can see is an attempt to give the poster a holier than thou attitude.

So, you can write a holier than thou, false statement like this:

"Instead of having leaders who are servants, we have leaders who are masters. In the rcc, from the priest up they are worshipped and obeyed without question. They do not model servanthood."

AND you get to call me holier than thou? What kind of reasoning is this?

As far as your idea of leadership - I agree that we are called to be servants. Having been briefly involved in a house church movement, I saw sincere people attempting to live this ideal - I saw others in the group positioning themselves for power - just like every other church. The fact is, smaller churches do not solve this problem and they actually invite other problems like private interpretation of scripture.

There is your commentary on your ideas on leadership.

marksman · Dec 26, 2010

If we could all open a civil dialog with eachother it would be great. Maybe we could start by all agreeing that each one of us belives that Jesus is God, Jesus died on the cross and rose from the grave by the power of the Holy Spirit, and Jesus bore our sins on the cross,,,,,,,,,,,,, We'd all be able to move forward, and we'd all truely see how we are all genuine fellow brothers and sisters in the faith.

Our thinking is determined by what we believe. Recently, and I am ashamed that it has take so long to discover this, I came to the realisation I am not a member of "a church", I am a member of the body of Christ. I function in this according to the gifts I have been given by God e.g. if I have been blessed with a gift akin to the lungs, that is what I function in.

The place where I function in these gifts is where two or three are gathered together in the name of Jesus. When that happens Jesus is there. I notice that in the NT there was only one church in each town, so everyone was a member of each other because they were all members of the body of Christ. Meeting together in homes to eat meals together, fellowship, have prayer and teaching was the most effective way to function as the church which is made up of the members of the body gathering together.

I now adopt this attitude. One body, one faith, one Lord and one church in each town. I no longer attend religious functions that prevent me from functioning as a member of the body of Christ and that divide me. I use any occasion when I meet with other believers whoever they are to function as a member of the body of Christ.

I endeavour to give place to eating meals, fellowship, prayer and teaching which may only be a few words inspired by the Holy Spirit. Operating this way does not need expensive physical structures; it does not need anyone to be paid to be good; it does not need everything to be in the hands of a few trained individuals. It means that the members can function in their ministry whenever the Holy Spirit annoints them to function.

Most important it means that everyone can submit to the lordship of Christ and receive their instructions from him. It means they have to hear from God himself and not from someone paid to represent God on earth.

Just imagine if the whole church operated this way and all the fancy buildings became redundant. Imagine the billions of dollars that would be avilable for mission and evangelism and helping the poor and needy. If that happened, the church would become a light set on a hill. We would be overun with new converts.

There is your commentary on your ideas on leadership.

Which paraphrased means "how dare you suggest that I am less than perfect."

Rach1370 · Dec 26, 2010

I don't think there needs to be division, even when there are different denominations.
I live in a rural area, and we have Baptists, Presbyterians, Salvation Army, Catholic, Charismatic and Evangelical...and probably one or two others.
Out here in the 'sticks' we all get along fine, and by that I mean we don't insult each other and we can all get together for united functions. I believe the reason for this comes down to a unity in belief. When it all comes down to it we all acknowledge that our religion centers around Jesus.
'But what about all the doctrine issues that divide?' you ask? Indeed, this is where those insurmountable objects get in the way. But part of my point is that out here people tend not to hold so tight to those 'political' doctrines. For example; when the Uniting Church accepted gay people into clergy, our local Uniting church broke away, declared themselves as Evangelical and went on worshiping Jesus.
When you start moving into larger populated centers, where politics and big money hold sway, you tend to find these, not God, making doctrine. Just stop and think of some of the churches that wont engage with others churches. Those that claim that people who don't speak tongues aren't actually saved. Prosperity and health gospel...if your not well and rich then you don't have enough faith. If you don't accept gay people as church members, even preachers, then you're evil and unloving.
There are more too, but each of those will not budge or sway when it comes to these doctrines...and are they biblical doctrines? Nope...purely man made.
My point is this. Despite denominations, unity comes from God, from loving and worshiping Jesus Christ. It's when man steps in and starts making rules that real division comes.

aspen · Dec 26, 2010

Rach said:
I don't think there needs to be division, even when there are different denominations.
I live in a rural area, and we have Baptists, Presbyterians, Salvation Army, Catholic, Charismatic and Evangelical...and probably one or two others.
Out here in the 'sticks' we all get along fine, and by that I mean we don't insult each other and we can all get together for united functions. I believe the reason for this comes down to a unity in belief. When it all comes down to it we all acknowledge that our religion centers around Jesus.
'But what about all the doctrine issues that divide?' you ask? Indeed, this is where those insurmountable objects get in the way. But part of my point is that out here people tend not to hold so tight to those 'political' doctrines. For example; when the Uniting Church accepted gay people into clergy, our local Uniting church broke away, declared themselves as Evangelical and went on worshiping Jesus.
When you start moving into larger populated centers, where politics and big money hold sway, you tend to find these, not God, making doctrine. Just stop and think of some of the churches that wont engage with others churches. Those that claim that people who don't speak tongues aren't actually saved. Prosperity and health gospel...if your not well and rich then you don't have enough faith. If you don't accept gay people as church members, even preachers, then you're evil and unloving.
There are more too, but each of those will not budge or sway when it comes to these doctrines...and are they biblical doctrines? Nope...purely man made.
My point is this. Despite denominations, unity comes from God, from loving and worshiping Jesus Christ. It's when man steps in and starts making rules that real division comes.

Christ preached a third opinion - love; which cuts across all doctrinal disagreements. The Pharisees were dualistic - trying to trip Christ up by creating a either/or situation - Christ would not play - He sliced right through it with a love / compassionate response.

TexUs · Dec 26, 2010

WhiteKnuckle said:
If there is one denomination that has X customs,,, let's say some branches of Southern Baptist, their custom is for women to have long hair, men to have short hair, women to wear dresses, men to wear pants,,,, etc, etc,,, Compare that to what woud be called very "loose" Biker Churches,,,, women wear jeans, men wear jeans and have long hair, tattoos are okay, cut off sleaves are just fine for Sunday worship,,, etc, etc, etc

Are those truely divisions? NO! They're merely places where one person feels more comfortable and is honoring God in a way that they see is right.

Good point...

I think people automatically assume "denominations divided" means "look at how many churches there are"... Well, not everyone in a town of 500,000 could assemble in a single building. So obviously, there will be many buildings. Obviously, each building's leadership group will be different.

Good point.

WhiteKnuckle said:
We can break things down to different little bitty trivial things in doctrine, such as baptism, spiritual gifts, clothing, rapture, etc, etc,,,,, Even the supposed non denominational churches have become a denomination of their own.

WhiteKnuckle said:
I think these are just ways for certain people to be comfortable in a certain group who has much the same views and are like minded. This provides learning and worship of God in a very comfortable environment where there's little question of trivial matters within the walls.

Good point.
Who wants to sit in a church where they have to constantly battle doctrinal issues? Wouldn't it be better for that person to seek another church that more fits their views verses disrupting all the others?

marksman said:
The place where I function in these gifts is where two or three are gathered together in the name of Jesus. When that happens Jesus is there.

He can't bother with one person? LOL! And if you have four people, your group is too big for him to handle? LOL...
Read the context of that passage, you'll find it's talking about church discipline.

I do hear your "one church in every town" thing but again, a 500,000 person town? You also need to realize that divisions in regards to key issues (like the cross of Christ not being sufficient) is going to be healthy to preserve true doctrine.

marksman · Dec 27, 2010

Who wants to sit in a church where they have to constantly battle doctrinal issues? Wouldn't it be better for that person to seek another church that more fits their views verses disrupting all the others?

Who wants to sit in a church where the people never talk to the other members of the body of Christ in that town? I certainly don't, that is why I ditched religious meetings that do that. Denominatons increase divisions in the body of Christ. As T. D. Jakes said, they are a form of spiritual tribalism. Unless you are like us we don't want anything to do with you.

I think people automatically assume "denominations divided" means "look at how many churches there are"... Well, not everyone in a town of 500,000 could assemble in a single building. So obviously, there will be many buildings. Obviously, each building's leadership group will be different.

And that is a very salient point as research has shown the proliferation of churches (deniminations) has put non believers off because they see it as not being able to agree with each other.

In most towns of that size, there are usually stadiums avilable for hire that could encourage large numbers. You will never grow if you start with the premise that the problem is too big for God to solve. If we use the NT pattern, we would not be meeting as a a whole very often so it is not a major issue.

He can't bother with one person? LOL! And if you have four people, your group is too big for him to handle? LOL...Read the context of that passage, you'll find it's talking about church discipline.

And if you read the original Greek it means any number so it could be two or twenty or.....

I do hear your "one church in every town" thing but again, a 500,000 person town? You also need to realize that divisions in regards to key issues (like the cross of Christ not being sufficient) is going to be healthy to preserve true doctrine.

I can see what you are saying here as long as we don't make it obvious for those outside the church to see. I never worry about my faith being challenged because it helps me discover whether I do believe what I believe.

Last year I spent most of my time debating atheists and at the end of the day I knew without a shadow of doubt that what they were believing was something that was built on quicksand, especially their devotion to evolution which is one of the biggest fairy stories I have ever heard.

Read the context of that passage, you'll find it's talking about church discipline.

Mat 18:19 Again I say to you that if two of you shall agree on earth as regarding anything that they shall ask, it shall be done for them by My Father in Heaven.
Mat 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in My name, there I am in their midst. Jesus spoke about many things in this chapter.

The context begins in v19 as it says "Again..." indicating a new topic. It finishes in v20 as v21 begins "Then Peter came to him..."

marksman · Dec 27, 2010

My point is this. Despite denominations, unity comes from God, from loving and worshiping Jesus Christ. It's when man steps in and starts making rules that real division comes.

And that is when you get denominations. I have studied all the major denominations in my country and apart from one or two, they came about because someone had a revelation that was different which the denomination they were in would not accept. So they went off and started their own movement. Unfortunately, like most of them, they don't take long to fossilise and lose their original vision, especially after a founder dies as a power struggle often sets in to be the top dog.

The last two years I have done an extensive study of the church, both past and present and too many of them are only a platform for men to strut the stage, so they are not really interested in anything that will deplete their power base which unity would. Submitting to all the other church leaders in the town requires humility and there ain't much of that about. They would rather build their kingdoms to get recognition from the denomination and when that happens they get to climb the ladder of success a lot quicker.

The person then stops being a servant of God and becomes a servant of the denomination so any scripture that might contradict denominational orders is quickly glossed over or conveniently avoided. The truth is, in too many cases, man is building his church and preventing Jesus from building his.

Rach1370 · Dec 27, 2010

aspen said:
Christ preached a third opinion - love; which cuts across all doctrinal disagreements. The Pharisees were dualistic - trying to trip Christ up by creating a either/or situation - Christ would not play - He sliced right through it with a love / compassionate response.

Jesus was awesome! He never started a fight, but He never lost one either! The Pharisees didn't just try and place Jesus in a tricky situation, they had taken it upon themselves to add to the laws.

[Traditions and Commandments]
[15:1] Then Pharisees and scribes came to Jesus from Jerusalem and said, [2] “Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat.” [3] He answered them, “And why do you break the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition?
(Matthew 15:1-3 ESV)

They were placing man made tradition and law more important than Gods own directive to love. And while Jesus was love, He certainly didn't hold back in calling the Pharisees exactly what they were.

In Matt 23, the seven woes he basically lets them have both barrels! And in John 8:39-47 he calls them sons of the devil. Pretty harsh words! But the lesson here is that while Christians are not to be push overs, (we are to stand up for God) it must come from the motivation of love.
Jesus motivation was love, it always was, even when putting people in their places!

TexUs · Dec 27, 2010

marksman said:
Who wants to sit in a church where the people never talk to the other members of the body of Christ in that town?

Working with them to pass out food is certainly something that can be co-operative.

Studying the Bible is another matter.

You also pretend like pastors could reconcile all their beliefs. Maybe you haven't read Hebrews, but they are charged and will be held more accountable than the average Christian... A pastor is to protect his doctrine and his flock.

Again, passing out food with the general message of Christ is certainly something co-operative (And indeed it happens in this town), however when it comes to Bible Study, I think it's healthier for all to be in a group of like-minded people that you could healthily learn from, verses being the disruptive person.

marksman said:
In most towns of that size, there are usually stadiums avilable for hire that could encourage large numbers.

I'm sorry but even if you were to open up Dallas Cowboys Stadium for Sunday Morning services you'd never fit everyone in the area into it. Modern architecture only goes so far. Plus weren't you just speaking against building massive "shrines to our selves"??? Seems like you need to make a choice. Massive buildings require massive bills, massive sound systems, massive lighting, massive everything.
You're necessarily encouraging mega churches as well. Very impersonal, "sit and watch" church. There's nothing wrong with that but the heart of the church is Bible study and fellowship with other believers, mega churches make it hard to do so. So what's that relegate the church to? Sunday Morning Worship Show??? Because then after that and during the week, everyone meets in homes for small groups, once again- divided because of numbers.
Once again- this is more beneficial for people to have people that know them well to be accountable to, and able to discuss the Bible with.

marksman said:
Mat 18:19 Again I say to you that if two of you shall agree on earth as regarding anything that they shall ask, it shall be done for them by My Father in Heaven.
Mat 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in My name, there I am in their midst. Jesus spoke about many things in this chapter.

The context begins in v19 as it says "Again..." indicating a new topic. It finishes in v20 as v21 begins "Then Peter came to him..."

"Again", indicates a new topic? That's a new one on me. The method of enunciation in those days was repetition, they didn't have computers with Bold/Italic/Underline fonts on them.
"Again" seems to be a re-enforcement of a prior idea.
Read from v15, it's talking of church discipline.

A change of topic occurs after this statement when Peter asks him a new question

marksman · Dec 27, 2010

And you already know that I believe the Bible is the inspired word of God - you are adding requirements to this belief.

Sorrry to disappoint you aspen, but you don't believe that the bible is the inspired word of God. What you believe is what everyone else believes and that is your interpretation of the bible is the inspired word of God.

Working with them to pass out food is certainly something that can be co-operative

I am not sure that I understand the relevance of this comment to churches that never talk to each other. If they are not talking to each other, how can they pass out food together?

You also pretend like pastors could reconcile all their beliefs. Maybe you haven't read Hebrews, but they are charged and will be held more accountable than the average Christian... A pastor is to protect his doctrine and his flock.

That is an assumption on your part. Unity of doctrine is not essential. Humility and submission is the key. What keeps them apart is primarily pride not doctrine as they don't want to be tainted by others who do not do things their way and a lack of grace for others who express themselves differently.

Again, passing out food with the general message of Christ is certainly something co-operative (And indeed it happens in this town), however when it comes to Bible Study, I think it's healthier for all to be in a group of like-minded people that you could healthily learn from, verses being the disruptive person.

The charismatic move in the UK in the 60s and 70s does not bear this out. One of the most effective witnesses took place when christians who lived in the same street all went their seperate ways on Sunday. During this period of time, neighbours noticed that during the week, instead of going their seperate ways again, they were congregating in each other's homes in the same street. Baptists, pentecostals, methodists, brethren etc. were meeting together in their homes with each other. It was achieved through humility and grace, not unity of doctrine.

I'm sorry but even if you were to open up Dallas Cowboys Stadium for Sunday Morning services you'd never fit everyone in the area into it.

You will note that I did not say EVERY town, I said MOST.

Plus weren't you just speaking against building massive "shrines to our selves"??? Seems like you need to make a choice. Massive buildings require massive bills, massive sound systems, massive lighting, massive everything.

Yes I was and I made a choice between spending multi-millions building or a few thousand hiring a venue two or three times a year.

You're necessarily encouraging mega churches as well. Very impersonal, "sit and watch" church. There's nothing wrong with that but the heart of the church is Bible study and fellowship with other believers, mega churches make it hard to do so.

I have no problem with mega churches providing they are the NT kind as in the church in Corinth, the church in Phillipi, the church in Ladocea etc. One church one town.

Once again- this is more beneficial for people to have people that know them well to be accountable to, and able to discuss the Bible with.

Couldn't agree more, that is why it was the preferred method of the NT church. It is interesting to note that today the church uses the worst method of teaching. The educational experts say that lecturing (preaching) is the least effective way of learning because you only retain 20% of what you hear. That means 80% of preaching is a waste of time. However, when you engage in dialogue and discussion, you retain 70% of what you hear.

aspen · Dec 27, 2010

Templar81 said:
Have you ever heard of te Oxford movement; John Henry Newman payed a big part.

Also, I'm interested in doing the RCIA, not for conversion but out of interest. Is it OK to do it if your not converting?

Yes - I have been very interested in John Henry Newman - he was quite a theologian. I am also really interested CS Lewis' writings and his choice to remain Anglican.

Yeah, you can stay in RCIA for as long as you want, without joining. There was a guy in my class that was in his third year (nothing is THAT compelling IMO, but to each their own

)

aspen · Dec 27, 2010

marksman said:
Which paraphrased means "how dare you suggest that I am less than perfect."

You know, I can see how people with a narrow minded view of what it means to be a Christian could mislabel me as a heretic, but arrogant? You guys can mock and scoff and ridicule all day long - throwing scripture around and declaring me this label and that label - deciding that you know more about what I believe than I do. Using absolute language and determining that Catholicism is a false church, based on your expertise and despite the fact that I have been studying the church for 12 years....

AND I am the arrogant one?

Wow

All I can say is even people who share your beliefs can see your behavior for what it is.

marksman · Jan 2, 2011

There is a verse that talks about us being all one in Christ Jesus.(Gal. 3:28) and in Ephesians it talks about when we all come to the unity of the fath 4:13). Another one says that Jesus will build his church (not ours) and the gates of hell will not overpower it (Matt 16:18).

Methinks the vision of Jesus and the church in the New Testament is a far cry from the apostate church we have today. I guess that is why Jesus emphasised that he would build his church not ours.

Today, the temple is every individual believer, Jesus doesn't need buildings. That is a man made concept. There is no point in tearing the curtain in the temple if all you are going to do is repair it and keep it for the select few to perform the necessary rituals.

I read an article the other day that the man made church is in decline, megachurches are going out backwards. The only one enjoying growth is the church in the home. I get the feeling that this is Jesus building his church without the interference of man, religion and ritual. In the church in the home they don't have meetings. They have meetings of the mind and spirit.

Be careful. There is probably a church in the home coming near you (that is if it hasn't happened already).

amadeus · Jan 2, 2011

marksman said:
...The truth is, in too many cases, man is building his church and preventing Jesus from building his.

You may right, but then, thank God for any exceptions!

horsecamp · Jan 8, 2011

hi im christian and a steadfast Lutheran in my beleif's

And even if i did not go to any church i still would be Lutheran in beleifs because Lutheran beleifs its not a denomination.
Its a confession .

marksman · Jan 10, 2011

horsecamp said:
hi im christian and a steadfast Lutheran in my beleif's And even if i did not go to any church i still would be Lutheran in beleifs because Lutheran beleifs its not a denomination.
Its a confession .

You are probably right and I have a lot of time for Luther. We need more of them to shake up the church but the fact is man has turned it into a religious organisation governed by rules and regulations like all the other denominations. And like other denominations, there is infighting in the Lutheran Church.

timf · Jan 11, 2011

And even if i did not go to any church i still would be Lutheran in beleifs because Lutheran beleifs its not a denomination.

I was thrown out of the Lutheran church by registered letter when I was in the Army. Years later I heard that a Lutheran church is charged by their Synod for each of the members carried on their membership list. They have a financial interest to purge their lists. In a way it was nice to learn that I was thrown out for money instead of something personal.

It is human nature to want to organize a collective and dictate what should be done by others. We see this process laid out for us in Galatia. It is difficult to think of a single denomination that has not followed this path.

Our thinking is infested with the concept that we have to belong to the right group. Instead we should ask ourselves, "Am I as much like Jesus as I should be?"

Our Christianity comes from God in us and is to be shown to others in love, truth, and service.

TexUs · Jan 11, 2011

I don't quite agree with that... Purging because of money, especially if you're in the Army and can't attend because of obligation elsewhere?

But I also don't agree with the way most churches do it and keep people on their membership rosters that only go once a year to make their rosters seem bigger.

horsecamp · Jan 11, 2011

marksman said:
You are probably right and I have a lot of time for Luther. We need more of them to shake up the church but the fact is man has turned it into a religious organisation governed by rules and regulations like all the other denominations. And like other denominations, there is infighting in the Lutheran Church.

their are a lot of independent lutheran church's that are not a members of any denomination or synod .

such as

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lutheran_Churches_of_the_Reformation

whats this about infighting?
yes there is in fighting amoung lutherans in the same congregation -----------and I bet you and your wife had fights or you and your mom and dad had fights

how would you like it if i said ------------you must not be a true family because there was a lot of infighting amoung you ..

mjrhealth · Jan 12, 2011

Maybe you all need to take a step nack and ask Jesus, which is the right church, which preaches the full truth. The answer would be without a doubt, the ony one that is true is the one that I ( Christ ) am building, all mens church, no matter what tiltle you put to it are wrong. How can Christ be one thing in one and something else in another, how can Christ sound like a anglican in one church and like a SDA in another, or a catholic or a protestant. Christ is Christ, He will only ever sound like, look like and act like Christ. There is no church on thsi earth today that fullfilss that. Not one.

All men are liars, Let God be true

In His Love

Denominations?

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