Rapture, Will There Be One?

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jodycour

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If the Rapture is not a real event that will happen explain to me what happen to the bodies of the Old Testament Saints that rose up out of there graves in: Mathew 27:51-53 Notice that the graves where opened. Why would they need to be opened if these were just spirits walking around?
 

n2thelight

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jodycourIf the Rapture is not a real event that will happen explain to me what happen to the bodies of the Old Testament Saints that rose up out of there graves in: Mathew 27:51-53 Notice that the graves where opened. Why would they need to be opened if these were just spirits walking around?
Matthew 27:53 "And came out of the graves after His resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many."The people that do not have eyes to see the spiritual things that are going on around them, and must see things physically to understand. These were the very souls of those that had passed on, and they were in heaven, in paradise. God allowed this appearance of the dead, to go back to the people in Jerusalem, and it would be people that had died and every one in town would recognize. An example of this would be the old baker on the corner, that everyone bought their bread from, or the doctor, or what ever. Here he was walking the street alive. What does this document?It documents that He who was crucified was Jesus the Messiah, the Christ. On that day there were many that came alive spiritually, as their eyes were opened. They saw the Christ on the cross, and they had the prophecy from the prophets of old. Today we have God's written word, and that knowledge must be hid in our minds, and accepted as the truth beyond doubt. This is what we call faith.When Christ came out of the tomb, He had defeated death. But while He was in the tomb, as it is written in I Peter 3:18-20; "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the Just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: [18] "By which also He went and preached unto the spirits in prison," [19] "Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water." [20]After death, while Christ was in the prison of the tomb, He preached to all those that did not have the availability of salvation all the way back to the time of Noah, which is a figure of speech, which means to even Adam. That when that veil was rent, that salvation was offered to Israel and the Gentile, all the way back to the beginning of the flesh age. God is good and God is fair.At the end of this flesh age, at the close of the tribulation by the Antichrist, we shall all be changed into our new spiritual bodies, and then starts one thousand years of the Millennium age, which is the kingdom of Jesus Christ, as recorded in Ezekiel chapters 39-48. It is a time of learning and discipline. At the end of that age, will be the great white throne judgment, when Satan and all his followers will be turned to ashes.http://www.theseason.org/matthew/matthew27.htm
 

jodycour

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Another matter that I would like to bring up is the army that rides with Jesus in Revelation19:14 Who are these people clothed in white linen? I believe that it is the Raptured saints, and Old testament saints!
 

JesusReigns

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Another matter that I would like to bring up is the army that rides with Jesus in Revelation19:14 Who are these people clothed in white linen? I believe that it is the Raptured saints, and Old testament saints!
Whoever they are, they fall under the time restriction clearly established in chapters 1--the things which must SHORTLY take place . . . the time is NEAR.ALL that is described in the book of the Revelation deals with events that were to take place SHORTLY in John's day--pre-AD 70!JesusReigns
 

JesusReigns

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JesusReigns,You really are big into the time thing aren't you?
It that wrong, jodycour? Do you find fault because I take Jesus' time statements seriously? The timing of the things Jesus spoke and the apostles wrote is extremely significant to our understanding! Why do you downplay it?JesusReigns
 

Jordan

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Apr 6, 2007
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And why do you try to get us lost with you? It is a doctrine of men. We have no reason to teach lies. We are not interested in your doctrine, your ideas, and getting deceived by a false doctrine.Lovest ye in Christ Jesus our Lord and Saviour.
 

JesusReigns

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And why do you try to get us lost with you? It is a doctrine of men. We have no reason to teach lies. We are not interested in your doctrine, your ideas, and getting deceived by a false doctrine.Lovest ye in Christ Jesus our Lord and Saviour.
What lies, thesuperjag?"YOU will not have gone through the cities of Israel BEFORE the Son of Man COMES" (Mat. 10:23)."There are some standing HERE who will not taste death till THEY see the Son of Man COMING in His kingdom" (Mat. 16:28)."THIS generation will by no means pass away till ALL these things take place" (Mat. 24:34)."Hereafter, YOU (Caiaphas and the whole Sanhedrin) will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of power and COMING on the CLOUDS of heaven" (Mat. 26:64)."The COMING of the Lord is AT HAND" (James 5:8)"The end of all things is AT HAND" (1 Peter 4:7)."The things which must SHORTLY take place . . . the time is NEAR (Rev. 1:1, 3; 22:6, 7, 12, 20).These lies?JesusRegins
 

Tama

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What lies, thesuperjag?"YOU will not have gone through the cities of Israel BEFORE the Son of Man COMES" (Mat. 10:23)."There are some standing HERE who will not taste death till THEY see the Son of Man COMING in His kingdom" (Mat. 16:28)."THIS generation will by no means pass away till ALL these things take place" (Mat. 24:34)."Hereafter, YOU (Caiaphas and the whole Sanhedrin) will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of power and COMING on the CLOUDS of heaven" (Mat. 26:64)."The COMING of the Lord is AT HAND" (James 5:8)"The end of all things is AT HAND" (1 Peter 4:7)."The things which must SHORTLY take place . . . the time is NEAR (Rev. 1:1, 3; 22:6, 7, 12, 20).These lies?JesusRegins
At HAND doesn't means in few years. Shortly doesn't mean in few years. He didn't say YOU Caiaphas and Sadhedrin... He never mentioned names on who's generation, who he refered to when he said YOU? He didn't refer to a specific person and that person's lifetime.... You really need to read REST OF THE BIBLE.It seams to me that you only read these few verses and without even reading verses before or after use them as a base for this FALSE DOCTRINE....REST OF THE BIBLE will open your eyes and you will see what God was talking about!!! READ REVELATIONS. Read Isaiah, Ezekeil and other prophets!!!
 

JesusReigns

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Hey JesusReigns,All the cities of Israel are still not evangelized! Jesus will not return until they are!
Where does it say that all the cities of Israel are still not evangelized? All Jesus said was that THEY would not personally do it! Others did! Jesus never implied in Matthew 24:14 that His original disciples were to be the only ones spreading the gospel OF THE KINGDOM. That gospel WAS preached in ALL the known world--Colossians 1JesusReigns
 

JesusReigns

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At HAND doesn't means in few years. Shortly doesn't mean in few years. He didn't say YOU Caiaphas and Sadhedrin... He never mentioned names on who's generation, who he refered to when he said YOU? He didn't refer to a specific person and that person's lifetime.... You really need to read REST OF THE BIBLE.It seams to me that you only read these few verses and without even reading verses before or after use them as a base for this FALSE DOCTRINE....REST OF THE BIBLE will open your eyes and you will see what God was talking about!!! READ REVELATIONS. Read Isaiah, Ezekeil and other prophets!!!
Tama: I have keyed in on these verses because they are significant to the proper understanding of other verses. It only SEEMS to you that I only read a "few verses" and not the "REST OF THE BIBLE." It all ties together, Tama. I have read Revelation, Isaiah, Ezekiel and the other prophets--they all fit quite nicely to Jesus' 70 AD return.Jesus was INDEED directly addressing the Sanhedrin and THAT Caiaphas, Tama. Study the context! Furthermore, He clearly said in plain easy-to-understand language--THIS generation. It is ALWAYS used to describe those contemporaneous to the speaker or writer--ALWAYS!Jesus was directly addressing His ORIGINAL disciples in Matthew 10 before He sent THEM out to the lost sheep of Israel when He told THEM that THEY would not finish going throught the cities of Israel BEFORE He CAME!He was clearly addressing those right there with Him when He said--"There are some STANDING HERE (NOW) who will not taste death till THEY see the Son of Man COMING in His kingdom." What is not clear here, Tama?I can make a counter accusation, Tama. You take certain portions of Scriptures as unfulfilled and then ignore the time reference words that constrain them and which clearly teach that they are fulfilled!I will continue to place the Book of Revelation in the clear time frame which the book itself establishes. That is the key to understanding it. All that is written within it involves the things which were to THEN SHORTLY take place. The time was THEN NEAR! If we begin to read a book that begins with the words, "The time is 1860" and then we attempt to place all the events written within it in a far-distant time, the entire book will be completely misunderstood! Don't you see that?JesusReigns
 

Tama

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Tama: I have keyed in on these verses because they are significant to the proper understanding of other verses. It only SEEMS to you that I only read a "few verses" and not the "REST OF THE BIBLE." It all ties together, Tama. I have read Revelation, Isaiah, Ezekiel and the other prophets--they all fit quite nicely to Jesus' 70 AD return.Jesus was INDEED directly addressing the Sanhedrin and THAT Caiaphas, Tama. Study the context! Furthermore, He clearly said in plain easy-to-understand language--THIS generation. It is ALWAYS used to describe those contemporaneous to the speaker or writer--ALWAYS!Jesus was directly addressing His ORIGINAL disciples in Matthew 10 before He sent THEM out to the lost sheep of Israel when He told THEM that THEY would not finish going throught the cities of Israel BEFORE He CAME!He was clearly addressing those right there with Him when He said--"There are some STANDING HERE (NOW) who will not taste death till THEY see the Son of Man COMING in His kingdom." What is not clear here, Tama?I can make a counter accusation, Tama. You take certain portions of Scriptures as unfulfilled and then ignore the time reference words that constrain them and which clearly teach that they are fulfilled!I will continue to place the Book of Revelation in the clear time frame which the book itself establishes. That is the key to understanding it. All that is written within it involves the things which were to THEN SHORTLY take place. The time was THEN NEAR! If we begin to read a book that begins with the words, "The time is 1860" and then we attempt to place all the events written within it in a far-distant time, the entire book will be completely misunderstood! Don't you see that?JesusReigns
hmmm. It looks like they told you to use that Matthew 10 no mattere what anyone tells you, and matthew 10 is a BASE (1 word Base doctrice) of your false doctrine!!! Read the revelations and show me fullfilment of prophecies. That Matthew 10 is not directed to people in front of Him literally. It was a prophecy!!!
 

JesusReigns

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hmmm. It looks like they told you to use that Matthew 10 no mattere what anyone tells you, and matthew 10 is a BASE (1 word Base doctrice) of your false doctrine!!! Read the revelations and show me fullfilment of prophecies. That Matthew 10 is not directed to people in front of Him literally. It was a prophecy!!!
Tama: Come on! Matthew 10 IS IS IS IS directed to those people in front of Him. Yes, it was a prophecy--for THEM! And no one TOLD ME to take these verses that way--I do my own thinking based on sound exegesis and proper hermeneutical principles. Let's look at chater 10 verse by verse.Verses 1-4: Jesus clearly names the twelve apostles who are right there with Him!Verse 5: THESE twelve Jesus was sending out and commanded THEM, saying: "Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans."To whom is this addressed, Tama? To us? NO! Jesus said to THEM! Are WE not to go to "a city of the Samaritans? If this is about us, then that applies also. But that is ridiculous! Are WE not to go into the way of the Gentiles? Clearly, this is not directed to us, Tama!Verse 6: "But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."Who was to go to the lost sheep of Israel, Tama. We? NO! THOSE twelve were to go to the lost sheep of Israel!Verse 7: "And as YOU go, preach, saying, 'The kingdom of heaven is AT HAND.'"Who was to preach as they were going to the lost sheep of Israel? We? NO! THOSE twelve apostles right there with Jesus, who were personally commanded to go, were to preach that the kingdom of heaven WAS at hand!Can you not see that this is not directed at anyone else other than THOSE specific twelve disciples?Verse 8: "Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons. Freely you have received, freely give."Who was told to heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, and cast out demons? We? NO! Jesus is speaking directly to THOSE twelve whom He chose and whom He sent out to the lost sheep of Israel! THAT is the CONTEXT!Verses 9-10: "Provide neither gold nor silver nor copper in YOUR money belts, nor bag for YOUR journey, nor TUNICS, nor SANDALS, nor STAFFS; for a worker is worthy of his food."To whom is Jesus speaking? To us? NO! Do we carry money belts with gold and silver and copper? Do we wear tunics or sandals and carry staffs? No! These things are mentioned because they were things used by THOSE twelve whom Jesus sent out to the lost sheep of Israel.Verses 11-15: "Now whatever city or town YOU enter, inquire who is worthy, and stay there till YOU go out. And when YOU go into a household, greet it. If the household is worthy, let YOUR peace come upon it. But if it is not worthy, let YOUR peace return to YOU. And whoever will not receive YOU nor hear YOUR words, when YOU depart from that house or city, shake off the dust from YOUR feet. Assuredly, I say to YOU, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for THAT city! Who is being addressed here, Tama? Jesus is speaking directly to THOSE twelve about things THEY are to do as THEY go out to the lost sheep of Israel. This is NOT about us!Verse 16: "Behold, I send YOU out as sheep in the midst of wolves. Therefore, be wise as serpents and harmless as doves." Whom was Jesus THEN sending out as sheep among wolves? THOSE twelve whom he commanded to go to the lost sheep of Israel. Are there principles here for us? Of course. We are still sheep among wolves in this world. We still need to be "wise as serpents and harmless as doves." But we are still not the ones being directly addressed here.Verses 17-22: Jesus now begins to tell THOSE twelve right there with Him whom he is sending out to the lost sheep of Israel about things that are going to personally happen to THEM as THEY go! "But beware of men, for THEY will deliver YOU up to councils and scourge YOU in their SYNAGOGUES. (Are WE to be scourged in Synagogues?)YOU will be brought before governors and kings for My sake, as a testimony to THEM and to the GENTILES.But whey THEY deliver YOU, do not worry about how or what YOU should speak. For it will be given to YOU in that hour what YOU should speak;for it is not YOU who speak, but the Spirit of the Father who speaks in YOU.Now brother will deliver up brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise uup against parents and cause them to be put to death. And YOU will be hated by all for My name' sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved."Verse 23: "When THEY persecute YOU, flee to another. For assuredly I say to YOU, YOU will not have gone through the cities of Israel BEFORE the Son of Man COMES!" Jesus was COMING BACK before those very TWELVE could finish going through the cities of Israel. That is what it plainly says!Tama, it is only your preconceived ideas that cause you to stumble over such simple language. There can be no doubt that Jesus is speaking directly to THOSE twelve disciples whom He chose and whom He was THEN sending out to the lost sheep of Israel. Is anything ever directed to a specific person or people when you see the word YOU? Is there no direct address in the Bible which confines the things spoken to a specific person or people during a specific time in history? Do you not see that you only stumble over such simple direct address in those contexts that involve prophecy? Are you willing to rethink what you believe in light of these simple words?When Jesus sent His disciples out to get Him a donkey for Him to ride, was that not a command directed specifically at those disciples right there with Him? According to your way of viewing the personal pronoun YOU, perhaps we should all go out looking for a donkey to take to Jesus!!!! Clearly, He was telling only THOSE disciples to get Him a donkey when He said YOU. Do we pick and choose how we are going to use the principles of language--maintain the principles when they suit us; throw them out when they don't!I was a premil, pretrib dispensationalist for 30 years and I did the very same thing you are doing until I decided to get honest with God's Word and stop trying to make it say what I was taught to make it say.Jesus is directly addressing His first-century original disciples in Matthew 10 and Matthew 24. He was coming back before THEY could go through the cities of Israel and He was coming back in THAT generation. You don't see that because you don't want to, Tama.JesusReigns
 

Tama

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Tama, it is only your preconceived ideas that cause you to stumble over such simple language. There can be no doubt that Jesus is speaking directly to THOSE twelve disciples whom He chose and whom He was THEN sending out to the lost sheep of Israel. Is anything ever directed to a specific person or people when you see the word YOU? Is there no direct address in the Bible which confines the things spoken to a specific person or people during a specific time in history? Do you not see that you only stumble over such simple direct address in those contexts that involve prophecy? Are you willing to rethink what you believe in light of these simple words?When Jesus sent His disciples out to get Him a donkey for Him to ride, was that not a command directed specifically at those disciples right there with Him? According to your way of viewing the personal pronoun YOU, perhaps we should all go out looking for a donkey to take to Jesus!!!! Clearly, He was telling only THOSE disciples to get Him a donkey when He said YOU. Do we pick and choose how we are going to use the principles of language--maintain the principles when they suit us; throw them out when they don't!I was a premil, pretrib dispensationalist for 30 years and I did the very same thing you are doing until I decided to get honest with God's Word and stop trying to make it say what I was taught to make it say.Jesus is directly addressing His first-century original disciples in Matthew 10 and Matthew 24. He was coming back before THEY could go through the cities of Israel and He was coming back in THAT generation. You don't see that because you don't want to, Tama.JesusReigns
How could Jesus know when he will come if God said NO ONE KNOWS THE DAY NOT EVEN SON, NOR THE ANGELSMatthew 24:36 (NIV) "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. His appearance will be worldwide and unmistakable. Just like a summer thunderstorm that lights up the entire sky, everyone will see Jesus coming (Matthew 24:26-27, 30). His return will also be accompanied by awesome cosmic events (Matthew 24:29-30). These events will herald the end of this age and the beginning of a new age in which both the heavens and the earth are cleansed and transformed by God.Jesus will return bodily to the very place from which he ascended—the Mount of Olives near Jerusalem (read Acts 1:11-12; Zechariah 14:3,4a). His return will touch off a tremendous earthquake (Zechariah 14:4b). This is the great earthquake often mentioned elsewhere in Revelation (6:12; 11:19) and by other Old Testament prophets (Isaiah 24:19; Joel 3:14-16).SUMMARY: Jesus' return will be the most dramatic event in human history, and it bring to an end human history as we know it.
 

JesusReigns

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How could Jesus know when he will come if God said NO ONE KNOWS THE DAY NOT EVEN SON, NOR THE ANGELSMatthew 24:36 (NIV) "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. His appearance will be worldwide and unmistakable. Just like a summer thunderstorm that lights up the entire sky, everyone will see Jesus coming (Matthew 24:26-27, 30). His return will also be accompanied by awesome cosmic events (Matthew 24:29-30). These events will herald the end of this age and the beginning of a new age in which both the heavens and the earth are cleansed and transformed by God.Jesus will return bodily to the very place from which he ascended—the Mount of Olives near Jerusalem (read Acts 1:11-12; Zechariah 14:3,4a). His return will touch off a tremendous earthquake (Zechariah 14:4b). This is the great earthquake often mentioned elsewhere in Revelation (6:12; 11:19) and by other Old Testament prophets (Isaiah 24:19; Joel 3:14-16).SUMMARY: Jesus' return will be the most dramatic event in human history, and it bring to an end human history as we know it.
Bravo, Tama! Now I'm with you! I disagree with you, but this is what I wanted. Good reasoning and good verses for me to respond to. Thank you. I have to go for now, though. I will certainly get back to you later. You bring up some very challenging verses. I look forward to "studying" with you! God bless,JesusReigns
 

Tama

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Bravo, Tama! Now I'm with you! I disagree with you, but this is what I wanted. Good reasoning and good verses for me to respond to. Thank you. I have to go for now, though. I will certainly get back to you later. You bring up some very challenging verses. I look forward to "studying" with you! God bless,JesusReigns
Now, where in AD 70 all this happened? And why AD 70? Back up that year with anything!!! God's word? Facts?
 

jodycour

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JesusReigns,As I said earlier,All the cities of Israel are still not Evangelized, even today!Haven't you kept up with the news, Hamas now controls the Gaza Strip,Islam controls the Dome of the Rock, etc.,,,,,?
 

Christina

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Bravo, Tama! Now I'm with you! I disagree with you, but this is what I wanted. Good reasoning and good verses for me to respond to. Thank you. I have to go for now, though. I will certainly get back to you later. You bring up some very challenging verses. I look forward to "studying" with you! God bless,JesusReigns
What you think you are educating us that we dont know these thingshow do you think we know your doctrine is false except that we know what scripture says?
 

JesusReigns

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JesusReigns,As I said earlier,All the cities of Israel are still not Evangelized, even today!Haven't you kept up with the news, Hamas now controls the Gaza Strip,Islam controls the Dome of the Rock, etc.,,,,,?
And I say again--WE are not the ones who were not going to finish going through the cities of Israel BEFORE the Son of Man CAME!What does the news have to do with the cities of Israel being evangelized? JesusReigns
 
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