Where Do People Go During God's Wrath?

TexUs said:

This is an interesting topic that cropped up in another thread that I think deserves its own.


I think anyone would be hard-pressed to prove that Christians will endure the wrath of God.
So the question is this: Where do Christians go during the seven bowls of wrath in Revelation?


John 3:13, No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.
Now without getting into a discussion here, I realize Elijah did, which supports some sort of heaven of peace for the souls of believers (see Luke 16, this doesn't appear to be God's throne), as well as a different heaven in which God sits on his throne, I think the latter is what's being spoken of here.


If that assumption is correct, then what happens to the believers during the bowls of wrath?


It does not make sense that we would be "vaporized" to heaven, only to return (seems to be a thing that rapture-supporters seem to forget). Revelation 21 is pretty clear that earth- is our destination. So, where do the believers on earth at this time, go? Does God supernaturally protect his children, or do we get vaporized somewhere for a temporary period, and then vaporized back?


Let's hear the theories!

Click to expand...

Don't need theory, T. Where did the Hebrew boys, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, go when the king threw them in the fire? Did God protect them? Those that are right with God will walk right through without being touched. Also, the John 3:13 text you refer to has absolutely nothing to do with the subject of your OP. You are taking it totally out of context.

TexUs said:

This is an interesting topic that cropped up in another thread that I think deserves its own.


I think anyone would be hard-pressed to prove that Christians will endure the wrath of God.
So the question is this: Where do Christians go during the seven bowls of wrath in Revelation?


John 3:13, No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.
Now without getting into a discussion here, I realize Elijah did, which supports some sort of heaven of peace for the souls of believers (see Luke 16, this doesn't appear to be God's throne), as well as a different heaven in which God sits on his throne, I think the latter is what's being spoken of here.


If that assumption is correct, then what happens to the believers during the bowls of wrath?


It does not make sense that we would be "vaporized" to heaven, only to return (seems to be a thing that rapture-supporters seem to forget). Revelation 21 is pretty clear that earth- is our destination. So, where do the believers on earth at this time, go? Does God supernaturally protect his children, or do we get vaporized somewhere for a temporary period, and then vaporized back?


Let's hear the theories!

Click to expand...

It is not theory -- no one is going anywhere.

In order to properly address this topic, one, first, has to divide 'Christians' into two classifications -- the elect, and the group of whosoever will. God is not angry at His elect, for they are here to serve -- not to be tested. God's wrath [the first 4 vials] is purposed for those Christians of the classification of whosoever will. So, of course most Christians, except for the elect, will experience the wrath of God -- they are the ones that God wants to test.

I agree with what tomwebster said here....

John 3:13 text you refer to has absolutely nothing to do with the subject of your OP. You are taking it totally out of context.


I think the believers will go through tough times, but not through the worst.....when the Earth is destroyed with fire. 2 Peter 3:12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. Isaiah 24:19 The earth is broken up, the earth is split asunder, the earth is thoroughly shaken. Isaiah 34:4 All the stars of the heavens will be dissolved and the sky rolled up like a scroll; all the starry host will fall like withered leaves from the vine, like shriveled figs from the fig tree. Micah 1:4 The mountains melt beneath him and the valleys split apart, like wax before the fire, like water rushing down a slope.


What exactly is God's wrath? Is it not the destruction of the Earth, and the judgment of ungodly people and their being thrown into the lake of fire?


2 Peter 3:7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare.

2 Peter 3:11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives


I do want to bring up that in Romans we can read about "the wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness." See Romans 1:18. Read more how God's wrath is being revealed: how their foolish hearts are darkened (Romans 1:21); How God gives people over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another (Romans 1:24); How God gives them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. (Romans 1:26-27); How God gives them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity.......


Romans 2:5-10 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. [sup]6[/sup] God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”[sup]7[/sup] To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. [sup]8[/sup] But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. [sup]9[/sup] There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; [sup]10[/sup] but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.


I think that many who think there will be a rapture before things get bad are in danger of falling away.

When the dead are resurrected and the those alive are changed into their resurrected bodies when Jesus comes....will meet Jesus in the air. 1 Thessalonians 4:16, and 1 Corinthians 15:52...in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

We see in 1 Corinthians 15:52, when the dead are raised....it will be at the last trumpet.


Matthew 24:32 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Maybe the wrath of God will happen to those on Earth after the dead in Christ are resurrected and those alive are given new bodies, and after we are safe with the Lord in the air. See Joel 2:11...

Joel 2:11 The LORD thunders at the head of his army; his forces are beyond number, and mighty are those who obey his command. The day of the LORD is great; it is dreadful. Who can endure it?


I do not see anything strange about being safe with Jesus while the Wrath of God goes upon the Earth.


1 Thessalonians 1:9-10 for they themselves report what kind of reception you gave us. They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, [sup]10[/sup] and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.


Read about the wrath Jesus is going to rescue us from........


Revelation 6:16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!

Revelation 6:17 or the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”


Revelation 11:18 tells us about God's wrath and the time coming to judge the dead....


Revelation 11:18 The nations were angry, and your wrath has come. The time has come for judging the dead, and for rewarding your servants the prophets and your people who revere your name, both great and small— and for destroying those who destroy the earth.”

Revelation 14:10 they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.

Revelation 14:19 The angel swung his sickle on the earth, gathered its grapes and threw them into the great winepress of God’s wrath.

Revelation 15:1 [ Seven Angels With Seven Plagues ] I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues—last, because with them God’s wrath is completed.

Revelation 15:7 Then one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls filled with the wrath of God, who lives for ever and ever.

Revelation 16:1 [ The Seven Bowls of God’s Wrath ] Then I heard a loud voice from the temple saying to the seven angels, “Go, pour out the seven bowls of God’s wrath on the earth.”

Revelation 16:19 The great city split into three parts, and the cities of the nations collapsed. God remembered Babylon the Great and gave her the cup filled with the wine of the fury of his wrath.

Revelation 19:15 Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.” He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty.



Revelation 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them.

Revelation 20:13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done


Matthew 25

“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. [sup]32[/sup] All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. [sup]33[/sup] He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

[sup]34[/sup] “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. [sup]35[/sup] For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, [sup]36[/sup] I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

[sup]37[/sup] “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? [sup]38[/sup] When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? [sup]39[/sup] When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

[sup]40[/sup] “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’ [sup]41[/sup] “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.


So far, from what I can understand from the scriptures......Jesus will come at the last trumpet. All will be raised, the righteous and the unrighteous. The dead will rise first, then those still alive will be given a new, resurrected body. We, the believers will meet Jesus in the air. God's wrath will be poured out on the Earth. Then the Earth and sky will flee from His presence. Then each person will be judged.


John 5:28-30
Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice [sup]29[/sup] and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned. [sup]30[/sup] By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.

TexUs said:

It does not make sense that we would be "vaporized" to heaven, only to return (seems to be a thing that rapture-supporters seem to forget). Revelation 21 is pretty clear that earth- is our destination. So, where do the believers on earth at this time, go? Does God supernaturally protect his children, or do we get vaporized somewhere for a temporary period, and then vaporized back?

Let's hear the theories!

Click to expand...

I am not sure I would use the word "vaporized"
I think the word is more like"translated" (or transformed ? ) from one form to another.

Remember the resurrection claim where God says he will raise the dead from the graves , from the ashes , from the sea , and give them new bodies.

Understand that , and we can maybe understand the rapture.

If God can bring back a dead body from the dust , I expect he could also change a living person.

He says he can do it In the twinkling of an eye .

I do not feel comfortable contradicting Him by saying He cannot do it.


I find it interesting that the "anti-rapture crowd" never challenge the fact that God can give the dead new bodies . (Resurrection)

They only insist he cannot give the living new bodies. (Rapture)

TexUs said:

There is a difference between the judgement and the wrath of God.

Click to expand...

There was nothing whatsoever in my writings that stated otherwise.

I'd like you to show me scripturally where Christians are subjected to the wrath of God.

Click to expand...

No problem.

Rev 12:9​

​

​

​

Since Satan had already been sentenced to perish a long time ago [first age for the deeper student], there is specific purpose in casting out Satan in the endtime. Non-christians are already not saved in the flesh -- they, in general, get their opportunity for salvation at the second resurrection [end of Lord's Day]. Hence, there is no reason to unleash Satan onto non-Christians. That leaves Christians as the ones that need to be tested by Satan prior to the first resurrection [end of the flesh dispensation of time].

Mat 24:22​

​

​

​

One can see here that the [endtime] days are shortened by God for the elect's [predestinated's] sake -- not for the entire Church's sake. The elect/predestinated are not at risk at this time [already earned their right to salvation in the first age for the deeper student]. Obviously, one can see that it is God's intent to protect His elect/predestinated.

However, one can also ascertain from this scripture that the remaining non-elect Church ['whosoever will classification] are not the concern of God for shortening the days. One can infer from this scripture that these non-elect Christians are the actual target of the endtime deception, as there is no purpose for testing non-christians and God's elect Christians.

Rev 16:9​

​

​

​

Repentance is for Christians -- not for non-christians. After the 4th vial of God's wrath, we see this statement that they [non-elect Christians] did not repent. This tells us that the purpose for the first 4 vials of wrath were to get non-elect Christians to repent. Is it to repent of individual sins?? No -- Christians regularly do that anyway. The vials of wrath are designed to get non-elect Christians to repent of their false religious beliefs/doctrine that would lead them to worship Satan, who is about to be cast out of heaven along with his fallen angels.

Indeed, right after this scripture, one sees the 5th vial [v. 10], which is the unleashing of the fallen angels, followed by the 6th vial [v. 12], which is the unveiling of Satan to mankind. Those that did not repent from their false beliefs [like rapture] after receiving God's wrath, are open game for deception by Satan.

Rev 20:4​

​

​

​

Those non-elect Christians that were deceived are not saved at the first resurrection. Their souls are at jeopardy.

I also think there's an assumption made of the "whosoever will" because the text doesn't tell us who that it (could be the elect).

Click to expand...

There are two classifications for salvation. There is the elect/predestinated. And, everyone else falls under the classification of 'whosoever will'. See John 6:39-40. Christ's mission is to two-fold -- not to lose any of the elect and to save whosoever will [John 3:16].

Martin W. said:

...I find it interesting that the "anti-rapture crowd" never challenge the fact that God can give the dead new bodies . (Resurrection)

They only insist he cannot give the living new bodies. (Rapture)

Click to expand...

The moment a person dies they return to a spiritual body like they had before they were born, and the same type of body we will have when Christ return. No one will have a flesh body any more. Flesh and blood can not inherit the Kingdom of Heaven, there is no flesh bodies in heaven.

1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

TexUs said:

I think anyone would be hard-pressed to prove that Christians will endure the wrath of God.
So the question is this: Where do Christians go during the seven bowls of wrath in Revelation?

Click to expand...

Consider this Tex:



I read Revelation 9 and I am unable to find the church on earth. It appears that everybody on earth has been accounted for as follows:


1. The 144,000 have been sealed by God and cannot be harmed.

2. The locusts are ordered to torture everybody else for 5 months.

3. The tortured people (everybody else) will seek death but not find it. They will long to die but death will elude them.

4. Then comes the sixth Angel and a third of mankind is killed.

5. The rest of mankind ... (the remaining two thirds) still did not repent from worshiping demons , murders, magic arts, sexual immorality, and thefts.



Everybody on earth is accounted for but the church is absent.


Thanks
Martin

TexUs said:

Where do Christians go during the seven bowls of wrath in Revelation?

Click to expand...

Another way to look at it:

1/ Announcement that The day of wrath is about to begin.( last verse of ch 6)

2/ After this the 144000 are sealed (ch 7)

3/ After this the multitude is seen around the throne in heaven (Christians) (ch 7)

4/ After this the trumpets and wrath begin (ch 8)

5/ Previous to this some tribulation has already occurred (ch 5 & 6) ( scrolls and seals) and the church may very well experience that portion of the tribulation. Thus John's comment that those in front of the throne have come out (of the great tribulation)

Certainly the christian church is not there for the wrath of the Lamb. Instead the believer is located at the throne of the lamb .

If the believer is at the throne ..... guess what .... he is not on earth.

We need to get over the word "rapture" . Call it something else if you want. It really doesn't matter what you call it. The church is absent during the wrath of the Lamb . Jesus did not build his church to be the recipient of his wrath. He built his church to keep it from the wrath.

The recipients of the wrath are the unsaved. This is clear.


Best regards
Martin

TexUs said:

Matthew 24 was fulfilled in 70AD, so I won't even consider this for future application

Click to expand...

Preterism has been discredited and debunked so many times.

Mat 24:3​

​

​

​

There would be no flesh in existence, the Lord's Day [1000 years] completed, the second resurrection taken place, the Great White Throne judgment done, and we would be in the third age if Mat. 24 was fulfilled by 70 A.D. Preterism is on par with Rapture as one of the most incredible religions out there. Only you can answer why you choose to believe in the lie of Preterism.

[font="arial][size="3"][/size]

[font="arial][size="3"]How do you arrive at this conclusion?

Click to expand...

Those that have never had a fair opportunity to know Christ [born and lived within other religions] are not at risk of damnation at this time. There is nothing for them to 'repent' of. Repentance is reserved for those that have accepted Christ.
[/size]
[font="arial][size="3"]

I disagree that the purpose was for "non-elect Christians" to repent. In fact up in verse 2 the people are defined as the people who worship and bear the mark of the beast, unless you think there is a NEW people group being spoken of in this passage? (BTW, "non-elect Christians" is an interesting concept, I'll have to study that one).

Click to expand...

[/size][/font]
True enough, verse 2 identifies those that take the mark. But, non-christians [other religions] cannot possibly 'take the mark of the beast' -- only Christians can take it. Non-christians don't believe in Christ to begin with and have not accepted Christ as the only begotten Son of God. Hence, it is impossible for them to worship the false Christ instead of the true Christ. Non-christians are not at risk of damnation. Only those at risk are the target and purpose for the wrath of God.

It is quite obvious that you are oblivious to the previous age, predestination, and the purpose of this age.

[font="arial][size="3"]

Would a non-Christian repent of what they've done? No. Thus they fit the description in 16:9... I think it's an assumption it's talking of Christians.

Click to expand...

[/size][/font]
It is not an assumption -- non Christians cannot possibly take the mark of the beast. The mark of the beast is a belief system.

If you look at the basis for repentance, you will gain understanding. The necessity of repentance is so that the shed blood of Christ covers our sins. Non-Christians do not believe in Christ. So, the shed blood of Christ does nothing for their sins. It is only believers for which the shed blood becomes remittance for our sins. Repentance is not for non-christians.
[/font][/font]
[font="arial][size="3"][font="arial][size="3"]

Huh? These are martyrs... Notice: "beheaded for the witness of Jesus". They are (or were) dead. A dead person can't be deceived by the works of Satan on earth at that point.
As what you say "not deceived and not saved at the first resurrection" can't apply to people who are dead (plus it does not say this in the text).

Click to expand...

I use the term 'non-elect Christian' to define those with free will [whosoever will] at the endtime. Of course, there were 'remnant', who are referred to as 'saints' in the Bible and who were predestinated from the first age, who died prior to Christ's return.

It is not a matter of damnation [lake of fire] for those that have died prior to the endtime having taken the mark [believed in Rapture], except for preachers thereof. God holds preachers accountable, Hence preachers have to pay the price for leading souls to death. However, those rapture congregants that have died, though having taken the mark of the beast, did not actually abandon Christ to worship Satan. Hence, God would be hard-pressed to sentence them to the Lake of Fire when they never had the chance at repentance, via the first 4 vials of God's wrath, that those who lived at the endtime had occasion to experience. Since God is completely fair, I surmise that those non-preachers, who die prior to the endtime having taken the mark of the beast, are still in good standing.

I don't think 39-40 supports non-elect coming to faith, because for all we know, only the elect will be the only ones who "look to the Son and believe".

Click to expand...

Well, the malefactor on the cross next to Christ proves your theory wrong. There are many with free will who will believe and be saved.

And John 3:16 is taken out of context, doesn't literally mean the world- see John 12:19 once more. And again, "Whosoever believes in him" could only be the elect.

Click to expand...

There is no way to square 'predestination' and 'free will' into one jumbo classification. One is born already into one or the other classification.

It's still an interesting concept, like I said earlier, I'll have to study it, but I wouldn't consider those two passages support of it.

Click to expand...

[/size][/font][/size][/font]

Click to expand...

Unless you think Christ had a speech impediment [and was not the perfect lamb of God], there are two classifications of people for salvation. Unless you understand the three ages of time, you will always struggle with predestination, the purpose of this age, and the endtime wrath of God.

TexUs said:

[/indent]Debunked by a poor translation, oh my! This is again where the NIV and other English translations departed from translation and entered interpretation. The original text does not support "earth" but "age".

Click to expand...

If you read the entirety of my post, you would have seen that I did interpret 'world' as 'age' as I debunked Preterism by showing you that we would be in the third age is Mat. 24 was fulfilled by 70 A.D.

The fact that 'world' should have been rendered 'age' does not negate the fact that Mat. 24:3 debunks Preterism.

I'm also not a Preterist. I can simply read the context of scriptures and also learn from history the events that fulfilled them.

Click to expand...

If it looks, walks, quacks, etc. like a duck, it must be a duck. You are a Preterist by way of your claim that Mat. 24 was fulfilled by 70 A.D.

All it says is that they don't repent. Does a non-repentant person describe a non-believer? Yes!
You're assuming that they ever would've repented or even considered it. It says they didn't- and that's ALL it says.

Click to expand...

There is no need to test non-believers -- they are all not saved in the flesh. God could simply end the flesh dispensation of time, without dispensing any wrath as an opportunity for repentance, and go into the Lord's Day to teach non-believers.

Again, you miss the principles associated with 'repentance' -- it is for believers.

Please explain to me how you think a Christian is a Christian that takes the mark of the beast and worships a false god?

Click to expand...

Have already done so if you have reviewed my writings.

Satan comes first. Those that are unlearned in the Bible, like Rapture believers, will think that Satan is the true Christ and will worship Satan. They toss their salvation away and will end up in the Lake of Fire [if exposed to the Truth and rejected it].

So, let me get this straight. You think this beast (Rev 13), that's openly blaspheming against God and the saints- will be mistaken as Christ? He's openly speaking against Christ, Christians, and God!!!

Click to expand...

Wow -- you are very confused! You don't even know that Satan returns to deceive the whole world. How would he do that if he did not pretend to be Christ??

Look up the definition of 'Antichrist' and you will have your answer.

Oh, really?
Also it causes all, both small and great, both rich and poor, both free and slave, to be marked on the right hand or the forehead, so that no one can buy or sell unless he has the mark, that is, the name of the beast or the number of its name.

Click to expand...

Satan is in charge of the one-world gov't. He will issue his own currency. One will not receive his currency unless one swears allegiance to him.

Right hand and forehead are metaphors for 'doing his work' and one's 'beliefs'. The mark of the beast is one's belief that the first supernatural entity to appear on the scene at the endtime is Christ. Doing the work of the beast is what Rapture preachers do today. When Satan is actually here, we will see many more doing the work of the beast. See Mat. 10:21.

You must ignore all martyrs from the history of the world that died for Christ to hold to this belief.

Click to expand...

No -- I addressed the martyrs. Read my post again. There have been God's elect in earlier times. Paul was God's elect.

Again, two things are said in the text.

Click to expand...

"Whosoever believes in him" and who "look to the Son and believe". For all we know, only the elect can do this. It's an assumption that anyone other than the elect could do this, the text doesn't support as proof for "whosoever wills that's non-elect".

Click to expand...

Try reading the scriptures with understanding.

Joh 6:39​

​

​

​

In verse 39, Christ is identifying salvation is for those the Father have given to Him [the elect/predestinated/saints/etc.]. In verse 40, Christ identifies the other classification for salvation, those with free will.

TexUs said:

Watchman for some reason anytime I quote your stuff the forum thinks I left a quote tag open so... Sorry for formatting.

Click to expand...

I think that there are some issues with this website's programming at this time. I cannot quote without having a bunch of lines added thereto.

None of that is a requirement in Matthew 24 though. It's more assumptions so I didn't even bother to respond to it.

Click to expand...

Veteran has already done a good job debunking the claim that Mat. 24 was fulfilled by 70 A.D. It is not the topic at hand, so, I will drop it.

Do you know what the word Preterism even means? It means "having been fulfilled".

Click to expand...

We are ALL Preterists at the most technical level as we all believe parts of the Bible have been fulfilled. The farthest and most extreme Preterists believes literally ALL has been fulfilled- and I don't fit that description.

Click to expand...

The base tenet of the Preterist's religion is that Mat. 24 was fulfilled by 70 A.D. -- the same [false] claim that you have made here. Though you are free to label yourself in whatever manner you choose, the fact remains that you have this same base [false] belief.

I really don't care about your reasoning. I might even agree with it. However, don't go beyond what the text supports. My question to you was simple: does an un-repentant person describe a non-Christian? The answer is yes.

Click to expand...

My reasoning is solely based upon what the text supports. Have you not read about the second resurrection??

Rev 20:5​

​

​

​

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. . .

​

Rev 20:7​

​

​

​

And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, . . .

​

Satan is released a second time at the end of the Lord's Day to deceive. The target audience of this second deception is not the same as of the first deception. Those non-believers [other religions] get their sole chance at salvation at the second resurrection. There is no need to test them prior to the first resurrection.

Ahhhh I think I understand our disagreement.

Click to expand...

I'm a firm believer in eternal security. I'd say a true Christian wouldn't "toss his salvation away".

Click to expand...

I agree that a 'true' Christian won't toss away their salvation. Even if a true Christian is not of the 'elect' classification for salvation, such non-elect Christian, if grounded well in the Word, will realize, upon receipt of God's wrath [first 4 vials], that there is something they need to repent of. I am very hopeful that some, who have already taken the mark of the beast, will wise up prior to worshipping Satan. The entire purpose of the endtime tribulation is to sort out the true Christians from the false christians.

If you aren't a believer in eternal security then I suggest just letting this point die because it's a foundational doctrinal issue we won't ever meet on.

Click to expand...

Fair enough -- there are many that prefer their foundational doctrines over the Word of God.

You're ASSUMING the beast is the AntiChrist then?

Click to expand...

The term 'beast' has varied meanings, depending on context. You would have to be more specific as to what reference to 'beast' you are referring to. For instance, there are two beasts referred to in Rev. 13.

Even though the term is used nowhere in chapters 12-13?

Click to expand...

It does not take much effort to know that the second beast of Rev. 13 is Satan.

You're ASSUMING the beast is Satan? No doubt Satan gives the beast control (12:2) but to be Satan himself isn't supported. In 12:4 they are two distinct beings.

Click to expand...

I mentioned in a previous post that you are oblivious to the first age. Your evident confusion in Rev. 12 is proof thereof. Rev. 12:3-4 takes place in the first age. The 'dragon' referred to therein is Satan.

Ahhh so the literalism supporter suddenly turns to symbolism when the literal interpretation works against his theory...

Click to expand...

When did I ever claim that the Bible is always interpreted literally? Answer = NEVER. You falsely accuse me.

The Word of God contains literalism, figuratives, idioms, metaphors, allegories, etc. It is up to us to sort it all out.

So- you're under the ASSUMPTION that all martyrs are/were elected?

Click to expand...

I never said that 'all' martyrs were elect of the time. Surely, some were. God knows who His 'elect' were -- not you or I.

Are you aware the method of repetition, being they didn't have computers with bold/italic/underline fonts, that repetition was the means of enunciation in those days? I'd assume you do.

Click to expand...

Now, do you not see the similarity between both the beginning and ending statements? "And this is the will of him who sent me.... I will raise them up at the last day"?
Could it not be he is re-enforcing what he just said? "All which he gave me" and "Everyone that see and believes" are the same people?

Click to expand...

Unless you think that Christ had a speech impediment or screwed up in v. 39 with the need to correct himself in v. 40, one cannot escape the fact that He was addressing two separate classifications of people for salvation. Absent a proper understanding of ages of time, you will be hard-pressed to put together a concise singular jumbo classification for people, which includes 'predestined' and 'free will'. The two are mutually exclusive of each other.

"Everyone that see and believes" still does not rule out this group being the elect.

Click to expand...

Those with free will are the purpose for this second age. If they were 'elect', there would have been no need for this second age. God could have skipped this age and gone straight to the next age. So, of course, 'free will' cannot be 'elect'.