Rapture, Will There Be One?

Tama · Jul 2, 2007

(Tama;12854)
Now, where in AD 70 all this happened? And why AD 70? Back up that year with anything!!! God's word? Facts?
Adding to my last comment...It is clear from a reading of the apostolic and church fathers that ALL of them expected a future return of Jesus Christ. It would be strange indeed if the entire church failed to understand the fulfillment of so many of the New Testament prophecies on such a major point. This is especially striking when we remember the promise of Revelation 1:7 that tells us, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. A preterist interpretation calls for this to be a reference to the "tribes of the land" of Israel, even though Israel was never described in such a way elsewhere in the Bible. But such an interpretation would demand that the Jews who suffered through the A.D. 70 event would have recognized that their sufferings were a punishment for their treatment of Jesus since the prophecy is not merely that they would mourn, but that they would mourn "over Him." Just as there is no evidence that anyone in the church ever recognized the fall of Jerusalem as the return of Jesus, so also there is a complete absence of evidence that the Jews ever recognized the coming of Jesus in those events.

JesusReigns · Jul 2, 2007

(Tama;12868)
Adding to my last comment...It is clear from a reading of the apostolic and church fathers that ALL of them expected a future return of Jesus Christ. It would be strange indeed if the entire church failed to understand the fulfillment of so many of the New Testament prophecies on such a major point. This is especially striking when we remember the promise of Revelation 1:7 that tells us, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. A preterist interpretation calls for this to be a reference to the "tribes of the land" of Israel, even though Israel was never described in such a way elsewhere in the Bible. But such an interpretation would demand that the Jews who suffered through the A.D. 70 event would have recognized that their sufferings were a punishment for their treatment of Jesus since the prophecy is not merely that they would mourn, but that they would mourn "over Him." Just as there is no evidence that anyone in the church ever recognized the fall of Jerusalem as the return of Jesus, so also there is a complete absence of evidence that the Jews ever recognized the coming of Jesus in those events.
Tama: I find it amusing that I am often accused of following the writings of men, yet people on these boards constantly copy and paste from other writers without acknowledging them. I have read this article before by John Stevenson entitled Why I Am Not A Preterist. It is filled with opinions and very little Bible. Is that your defense against preterism--the writings of others. Can we not do our own Bible study and reach our own conclusions?Church Fathers, Church Creeds ALL must stand or fall before the Word of God. Jesus said He was coming back to THAT generation. Even unbelievers recognize this and point their accusing fingers at the church. Jesus said He was coming back, but according to the church, He didn't--He lied--He's a false prophet! The apostles said He was coming back to them, but according to the church, He has still not returned--they lied--they were false teachers. The Bible indicates that Jesus was coming back in THAT generation, but according to the church, He did not--the Bible is full of errors; Christianity is a false religion.That is why I do what I do. We have a church living in dread of some coming Antichrist who will make the world miserable for all of those who are not raptured out. Why attempt to change such a world since it is going to be burned up anyway? Why get involved since everything is just going to get worse and worse? That's what I detest--that gloom and doom doctrine of defeat. Jesus has come--Jesus now reigns--He is building His church and the gates of hell will not prevail against her and we have been chosen as His instruments to do that. We are still the salt of the earth and should be working to change that which is wrong and which is in conflist with God's Word. We are still the light of the world and shouldn't be cowering under a bushel waiting for the dreaded end. Maybe you don't do that, but many do. I have a friend who never votes because she doesn't think it is important to be involved in something that is only temporary.What is the dispensational defense for the attacks on the church? Unsatisfactory and unbiblical dual fulfillments and postponement theories! The only credible explanation for nonoccurrence is OCCURRENCE. Jesus said He was coming back THEN and He did. That's why it is important. We are dealing with the truthfulness of the words of our Lord!JesusReigns

Tama · Jul 2, 2007

(JesusReigns;12869)
Tama: I find it amusing that I am often accused of following the writings of men, yet people on these boards constantly copy and paste from other writers without acknowledging them. I have read this article before by John Stevenson entitled Why I Am Not A Preterist. It is filled with opinions and very little Bible. Is that your defense against preterism--the writings of others. Can we not do our own Bible study and reach our own conclusions?Church Fathers, Church Creeds ALL must stand or fall before the Word of God. Jesus said He was coming back to THAT generation. Even unbelievers recognize this and point their accusing fingers at the church. Jesus said He was coming back, but according to the church, He didn't--He lied--He's a false prophet! The apostles said He was coming back to them, but according to the church, He has still not returned--they lied--they were false teachers. The Bible indicates that Jesus was coming back in THAT generation, but according to the church, He did not--the Bible is full of errors; Christianity is a false religion.That is why I do what I do. We have a church living in dread of some coming Antichrist who will make the world miserable for all of those who are not raptured out. Why attempt to change such a world since it is going to be burned up anyway? Why get involved since everything is just going to get worse and worse? That's what I detest--that gloom and doom doctrine of defeat. Jesus has come--Jesus now reigns--He is building His church and the gates of hell will not prevail against her and we have been chosen as His instruments to do that. We are still the salt of the earth and should be working to change that which is wrong and which is in conflist with God's Word. We are still the light of the world and shouldn't be cowering under a bushel waiting for the dreaded end. Maybe you don't do that, but many do. I have a friend who never votes because she doesn't think it is important to be involved in something that is only temporary.What is the dispensational defense for the attacks on the church? Unsatisfactory and unbiblical dual fulfillments and postponement theories! The only credible explanation for nonoccurrence is OCCURRENCE. Jesus said He was coming back THEN and He did. That's why it is important. We are dealing with the truthfulness of the words of our Lord!JesusReigns
haha - actually I researched alot of articles / websites/ and books on this 'doctrine of yours, and it is funny how everyone recognizes it as the SAME FALSE TEACHING...You said: Jesus has come!! Jesus reigns!! Jesus is building His church!!!Mr. Preterist... Listen... Jesus is coming soon and EVERY EYE will see Him and KNOW he came!! People will not debate and try to prove that He already came!! WHOLE EARTH will witness His coming!!! There will not be any arguments and questions about it!!! HE WILL COME in the way PROMISSED by God thru prophets!!!!!You said we are still on earth to change what is in conflict with His Word? You really setting yourself up in this comment... You are right! WE ARE STILL HERE TO CHANGE WHAT IS IN CONFLICT WITH HIS WORD.. And His word teaches that in the last days there will be FALSE TEACHINGS, that will try to PREVENT His church from being ready for the Christ. You are in Conflict with His Word...You said He is building His church and the gates of hell will not prevail against her and we have been chosen as His instruments to do that???Yes so He can come and take His Church as a Bride before His 2nd coming... Yes, we are still the salf and the letter. We are still His Church, HIS BRIDE. He is gicing us more time before His 2nd coming so we can be ready and become the Bride he wants us to be.

Christina · Jul 2, 2007

(Tama;12870)
haha - actually I researched alot of articles / websites/ and books on this 'doctrine of yours, and it is funny how everyone recognizes it as the SAME FALSE TEACHING...You said: Jesus has come!! Jesus reigns!! Jesus is building His church!!!Mr. Preterist... Listen... Jesus is coming soon and EVERY EYE will see Him and KNOW he came!! People will not debate and try to prove that He already came!! WHOLE EARTH will witness His coming!!! There will not be any arguments and questions about it!!! HE WILL COME in the way PROMISSED by God thru prophets!!!!!You said we are still on earth to change what is in conflict with His Word? You really setting yourself up in this comment... You are right! WE ARE STILL HERE TO CHANGE WHAT IS IN CONFLICT WITH HIS WORD.. And His word teaches that in the last days there will be FALSE TEACHINGS, that will try to PREVENT His church from being ready for the Christ. You are in Conflict with His Word...You said He is building His church and the gates of hell will not prevail against her and we have been chosen as His instruments to do that???Yes so He can come and take His Church as a Bride before His 2nd coming... Yes, we are still the salf and the letter. We are still His Church, HIS BRIDE. He is gicing us more time before His 2nd coming so we can be ready and become the Bride he wants us to be.
Amen TamaFor all eyes will see His coming and there will be an eathquake as the world has never seen and those that see him and did not believe or followed false doctrine to lead his sheep astray will hide among the rocks a pray they would fall upon them because of their Shame. I would advise you either change your ways Jesusreigns or invest in a helmut. You are going to need it. Your shame will be laid before the world to see. You are in danger of the second death,the death of your very soul and it will be as if you never were.

JesusReigns · Jul 2, 2007

(Tama;12870)
haha - actually I researched alot of articles / websites/ and books on this 'doctrine of yours, and it is funny how everyone recognizes it as the SAME FALSE TEACHING...You said: Jesus has come!! Jesus reigns!! Jesus is building His church!!!Mr. Preterist... Listen... Jesus is coming soon and EVERY EYE will see Him and KNOW he came!! People will not debate and try to prove that He already came!! WHOLE EARTH will witness His coming!!! There will not be any arguments and questions about it!!! HE WILL COME in the way PROMISSED by God thru prophets!!!!!You said we are still on earth to change what is in conflict with His Word? You really setting yourself up in this comment... You are right! WE ARE STILL HERE TO CHANGE WHAT IS IN CONFLICT WITH HIS WORD.. And His word teaches that in the last days there will be FALSE TEACHINGS, that will try to PREVENT His church from being ready for the Christ. You are in Conflict with His Word...You said He is building His church and the gates of hell will not prevail against her and we have been chosen as His instruments to do that???Yes so He can come and take His Church as a Bride before His 2nd coming... Yes, we are still the salf and the letter. We are still His Church, HIS BRIDE. He is gicing us more time before His 2nd coming so we can be ready and become the Bride he wants us to be.
Again, where is the Scripture?JesusReigns

JesusReigns · Jul 2, 2007

(Tama;12870)
haha - actually I researched alot of articles / websites/ and books on this 'doctrine of yours, and it is funny how everyone recognizes it as the SAME FALSE TEACHING...You said: Jesus has come!! Jesus reigns!! Jesus is building His church!!!Mr. Preterist... Listen... Jesus is coming soon and EVERY EYE will see Him and KNOW he came!! People will not debate and try to prove that He already came!! WHOLE EARTH will witness His coming!!! There will not be any arguments and questions about it!!! HE WILL COME in the way PROMISSED by God thru prophets!!!!!You said we are still on earth to change what is in conflict with His Word? You really setting yourself up in this comment... You are right! WE ARE STILL HERE TO CHANGE WHAT IS IN CONFLICT WITH HIS WORD.. And His word teaches that in the last days there will be FALSE TEACHINGS, that will try to PREVENT His church from being ready for the Christ. You are in Conflict with His Word...You said He is building His church and the gates of hell will not prevail against her and we have been chosen as His instruments to do that???Yes so He can come and take His Church as a Bride before His 2nd coming... Yes, we are still the salf and the letter. We are still His Church, HIS BRIDE. He is gicing us more time before His 2nd coming so we can be ready and become the Bride he wants us to be.
Again, where is the Scripture? If you lived to be another thousand years, Tama, you would look in vain. He said He was coming to THAT generation and He did! Furthermore, WE are not in the last days. Read Hebrews 1--"in THESE LAST DAYS"--they are over!JesusReigns

Christina · Jul 2, 2007

What does Hebrew 1 have to do with the last days being over? The "Hebrews" are all the children of Abraham, of all the tribes of both the houses of Israel and the house of Judah. Before the scattering of both houses; the house of Israel by the Assyrians, and the house of Judah by the Babylonians, the people called themselves "Israelites". However, after the scattering they were know as "Hebrews". The word "Hebrew" means "from the other side of the river". Through the years the Euphrates river had become the border and dividing line between God's people, the Israelites and Babylon. Paul is using the word Hebrews here to direct this book to all the dispersed of all the tribes of both houses wherever they may be. This is why the book of Hebrews goes to a greater depth then most other books in the New Testament. Paul truly was a scholar of God's Word in understanding the full meaning of God's entire Word, and Peter wrote of this in II Peter 3:15; "And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also, according to the wisdom given unto him, hath written unto you:" A considerable part of Paul's wisdom and understand is given us in the Book of Hebrews. Hebrews 1:1 "God, Who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,"God, Who at many times throughout the entire scripture, and in many divers ways spoke to our ancestors through His prophets. When we read our Bibles and study it, He is also speaking to us through His prophets [teachers]. This letter is written to all of God's children, of Israel, and to the Gentile also of all generations. Hebrews 1:2 "Hath in these last days spoken unto us by His Son, Whom He hath appointed Heir of all things, by Whom also He made the worlds;"Jesus Christ the Son of God came to this earth through the womb of Mary, and He also spoke to us in person. Stop and think on it.

Christina · Jul 2, 2007

(JesusReigns;12876)
kriss: Again, where is the Scripture? Could you put what you believe into some kind of logical, biblical form instead of giving opinions? I am trying to encourage Bible study here. Can we look at actual Scripture?I am assuming that you are referring to Revelation 1:7 since you again did not provide a Bible verse for your statement. In the CONTEXT of Revelation 1:7 (which again falls within the time restraint clearly established in verses 1 and 3--the things which must SHORTLY take place . . . the time is NEAR), we see the same cloud coming that is spoken of in Matthew 24. In Matthew 24 the time is again clearly established by Jesus' statement "THIS generation will by no means pass away till ALL these things take place."Therefore, Rev. 1:7 is that same cloud coming and it is the same cloud coming which Jesus told THAT first-century Caiaphas that HE would personally see--YOU will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of power and COMING on the CLOUDS of heaven" (Mat. 26:64). To the student of the OT, it is clear that cloud comings are often used to describe the judgment of God upon a nation or people as in Psa. 97; Jer. 4:13-14; Ezek. 34:12-13; Joel 2:2Zeph. 1:15. Isaiah said of the Lord in the judgment upon Egypt: "Behold, the Lord rideth upon a swift cloud." The same is true of the NT references to clouds in relation to Jesus' coming in judgment upon that Jewish nation guilty of "all the righteous blood shed on the earth" (Mat. 23). As for every eye seeing Him--every can be used in a restrictive sense depending upon the CONTEXT. Revelation 1:7 and Matthew 24:30 speak of the same time frame. In Matthew 24:30 we clearly see that it was the tribes of the land who were to see Him and mourn. Every is used in a restrictive sense and involved the tribes of the land and also those who pierced Him. These can be either the very people who actually pierced Him or it can be the Jewish leaders who were complicit in His crucifixion as Peter states in Acts 4:10. See also Mat. 26:64 where Caiaphas and the rulers were told that THEY would "see" Him coming on the CLOUDS OF HEAVEN! "Every," therefore, quite often does not mean every of something exhaustively. For example, if someone goes to an office party and is later asked who was there, he might reply--"Everyone was there." Did he mean every single person throughout the entire world? No! Of course not! He meant everyone in the context of that restrictive event--the office party. In Revelation 1:7 we also have a very select group--especially those Jews guilty of killing the prophets and apostles and their own Messiah! Every eye of THAT group saw Him! Furthermore, there are different ways of seeing. Seeing is not always done with the eye but with inner perception. The Jewish temple had been destroyed before. They knew what it meant--they were Jews! Those Jews of that day would have "seen" God's judgment in the destruction of their city and temple just as surely as those OT Jews saw it!As for my soul, I care not what your assessment of my relationship with God is. I care only about His assessment of me. I have no fear for my soul for it rests securely in the hands of my wonderful Savior! JesusReigns
Again trash doctrine I have given you Rev. verses at least three times you continue to preach this garbage and ask for scripture Im thru with you and your condesending attitude.Anyone wanting to talk about Rapture please feel free to start another thread.as this one has gotten off topic.

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