Proof that Jesus is God
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Cooper
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I know for a fact that the Commander of the Canadian Forces, the Duke of Lancaster, and the Head of the New Zealand Defense Force is ONE person with three titles/roles.
And you say the omnipresent almighty creator of the whole universe, for whom nothing is impossible cannot do likewise. To which I reply, "you have an impotent god."
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When Alexander went to meet Kind Darius' wife, after the king's defeat at Issus, she prostrated herself to Alexander's best friend Hephaestion.
When the queen was corrected for her error, Alexander replied, "Fear not O queen, for he too is Alexander."
2 Persons, One King.
(And there god is impotent, because they are impotent god-makers)
The Apostles were Christians. Followers of Jesus Christ. Peter would write Praised be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, (1 Peter 1:3)
2 Corinthians 1:3
Praised be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of tender mercies and the God of all comfort,
Ephesians 1:3
Praised be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, for he has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in union with Christ,
1 Peter 1:3
Praised be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, for according to his great mercy he gave us a new birth to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
Ephesians 5:20
always giving thanks to our God and Father for everything in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Thessalonians 1:1
Paul, Sil·vaʹnus, and Timothy, to the congregation of the Thes·sa·loʹni·ans in union with God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:
Ephesians 1:2
May you have undeserved kindness and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Galatians 1:3
May you have undeserved kindness and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Corinthians 1:2
May you have undeserved kindness and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Philemon 1:3
May you have undeserved kindness and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Philippians 1:2
May you have undeserved kindness and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Corinthians 1:3
May you have undeserved kindness and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Colossians 1:3
We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, when we pray for you,
Romans 15:6
so that unitedly you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Thessalonians 2:16
Moreover, may our Lord Jesus Christ himself and God our Father, who loved us and gave everlasting comfort and good hope by means of undeserved kindness,
Ephesians 1:17
that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the accurate knowledge of him.
1 Thessalonians 1:3
for we continually remember your faithful work, your loving labor, and your endurance because of your hope in our Lord Jesus Christ in the presence of our God and Father.
2 Timothy 1:2
to Timothy, a beloved child: May you have undeserved kindness, mercy, and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.
1 Timothy 1:2
to Timothy, a genuine child in the faith: May you have undeserved kindness and mercy and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 1:7
to all those who are in Rome as God’s beloved ones, called to be holy ones: May you have undeserved kindness and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Corinthians 11:31
The God and Father of the Lord Jesus, the One who is to be praised forever, knows I am not lying.
1 Corinthians 1:2
to the congregation of God that is in Corinth, to you who have been sanctified in union with Christ Jesus, called to be holy ones, together with all those everywhere who are calling on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours:
Philippians 2:11
and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.
2 Thessalonians 1:2
May you have undeserved kindness and peace from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Ephesians 6:23
May the brothers have peace and love with faith from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Corinthians 15:57
But thanks to God, for he gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ!
1 Thessalonians 3:11
Now may our God and Father himself and our Lord Jesus make a way for us to come to you.
1 Thessalonians 5:9
because God assigned us, not to wrath, but to the acquiring of salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Romans 6:23
For the wages sin pays is death, but the gift God gives is everlasting life by Christ Jesus our Lord.
1 Corinthians 1:9
God is faithful, by whom you were called into fellowship with his Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.
Romans 7:25
Thanks to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So, then, with my mind I myself am a slave to God’s law, but with my flesh to sin’s law.
Jude 1:21
in order to keep yourselves in God’s love, while you await the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ with everlasting life in view.
1 Corinthians 8:6
there is actually to us one God, the Father, from whom all things are and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are and we through him.
Romans 1:4
but who with power was declared God’s Son according to the spirit of holiness by means of resurrection from the dead—yes, Jesus Christ our Lord.
The Father and I are one is figurative speech for Jesus tells his Father in prayer. "I have given them the glory that you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are one." (John 17:22)
Remember trinitarians don't believe in the trinity doctrine of three separate persons. The Father and I are one is like when a coupled gets married. The two become one flesh. It's not literal but figurative. But (John 17:22) exposes them as false prophets now doesn't it?
Cooper
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I do not understand your point. John 17:5 confirms Christ's pre-existence even before the world was, thereby confirming Christ as the WORD, "And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was."
Your interpretation of John 17:22 where you speak of husband and wife being One in unity confirms two persons of the Godhead, which is the Biblical term, and your religion is reduced to ruins.
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The scriptures say NOTHING about a trinity. The Father and Son is a relationship. The Son obeys the Father's Will.
"Father, if you want to, remove this cup from me. Nevertheless, let, not my will, but yours take place." (Luke 22:42)
John 14:31
But for the world to know that I love the Father, I am doing just as the Father has commanded me to do. Get up, let us go from here.
I already showed you that Jesus existed before the earth and is preeminent.
The use of a feminine nouns emphasis the fact that the Word was created. When? "In the Beginning was the Word" (John 1:1) Words such as godlike, divinity, or deity are all in the feminine sense.
Strong's Concordance:
arché: beginning, origin
Original Word: ἀρχή, ῆς, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: arché
Phonetic Spelling: (ar-khay')
Short Definition: ruler, beginning
Definition: (a) rule (kingly or magisterial), (b) plur: in a quasi-personal sense, almost: rulers, magistrates, (c) beginning.
HELPS Word-studies 746 arxḗ – properly, from the beginning (temporal sense), i.e."the initial (starting) point"; (figuratively) what comes first and therefore is chief (foremost), i.e. has the priority because ahead of the rest ("preeminent").
When trinitarians can't show a scripture of three separate persons make up one God, they switch to Modalism, saying 'Jesus is God'. The trinity is like a three legged stool. Remove one leg and the trinity comes tumbling down. So they hurl insults and accusations.
"Jehovah produced me as the beginning of his way, The earliest of his achievements of long ago. From ancient times I was installed, From the start, from times earlier than the earth. When there were no deep waters, I was brought forth, When there were no springs overflowing with water." (Proverbs 8:22-24)
"Jehovah produced me as the beginning of his way, The earliest of his achievements of long ago. From ancient times I was installed, From the start, from times earlier than the earth. When there were no deep waters, I was brought forth, When there were no springs overflowing with water." (Proverbs 8:22-24)
"So now, Father, glorify me at your side with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was." (John 17:5)
It all fits quite nicely now doesn't it??
"So now, Father, glorify me at your side with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was." (John 17:5)
It all fits quite nicely now doesn't it??
Cooper
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Father, Son and Holy Spirit are there throughout the Bible. The denials are evidence of one who has nothing more to say. The foe is vanquished.
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Wrangler
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Proving my point! God, in his unitarian nature, is our Father. God is the Father of Jesus and our Father.
Every reference you made confirms this, which proves Jesus is not God.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Not cannot. He alone is God. We are not talking about titles. There is no other God but the LORD - who alone is God and there is no other. This is stated repeatedly in Scripture.
The Godhead is as marriage. There are two in marriage, male and female, and are become one flesh. Without one or the other, whether by death, desertion, or adultery there is no marriage.
So it is with God, an everlasting marriage of two Persons, without one or the other there is no God. This 'marriage' of God never began and never ends, because the Father loves the Son and the Son loves the Father.
There are not three separate Persons in the Godhead, even as a marriage is not that of two separate persons. They are three distinct Persons, who are not separate but distinct from one another, even as in marriage. 2 distinct persons in one marriage on earth, 3 distinct Persons in One God in heaven.
John 17:22 proves 2 things: The Godhead of distinct Persons, Who are not one and the same Person.
"And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one."
The Son and the Father are one Spirit. God is one Spirit. The Son and the Father are God in one Spirit. We know this is a perfect unity, as in marriage of one flesh, because we are to be one even as they are one, and we can never be one another, but we can be unified as one in God, even as the Father and the Son are.
"Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ." (Eph 4)
This is the mystery of God and the Godhead, that was kept hidden from the foundation of the world, and One of them was not made known, until He came down from heaven to be born of flesh as a man. Before that time for everlasting He was with God and was God. There was no distinction made between them, except in that He was called the Lord God.
And so now the mystery of God is made known to us, the church, them that believe in the Son and in the Father and acknowledge and honor both as God (John 5) (I John 2).
(Now, One Person being One God who created another person to 'perform' creation for Himself, and later blessed that created being with immortality for good deeds done as a mortal man on earth...That is not a mystery. That is a mangled mystical mess made up of pagan men in pseudo Christian garb. And Christians have neither fellowship nor unity with Greekified pagan god-makers, who refuse to worship Jesus as Christ, because they consider that to be a blasphemy of worshipping the creature as the Creator)
So it is with God, an everlasting marriage of two Persons, without one or the other there is no God. This 'marriage' of God never began and never ends, because the Father loves the Son and the Son loves the Father.
There are not three separate Persons in the Godhead, even as a marriage is not that of two separate persons. They are three distinct Persons, who are not separate but distinct from one another, even as in marriage. 2 distinct persons in one marriage on earth, 3 distinct Persons in One God in heaven.
John 17:22 proves 2 things: The Godhead of distinct Persons, Who are not one and the same Person.
"And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one."
The Son and the Father are one Spirit. God is one Spirit. The Son and the Father are God in one Spirit. We know this is a perfect unity, as in marriage of one flesh, because we are to be one even as they are one, and we can never be one another, but we can be unified as one in God, even as the Father and the Son are.
"Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ." (Eph 4)
This is the mystery of God and the Godhead, that was kept hidden from the foundation of the world, and One of them was not made known, until He came down from heaven to be born of flesh as a man. Before that time for everlasting He was with God and was God. There was no distinction made between them, except in that He was called the Lord God.
And so now the mystery of God is made known to us, the church, them that believe in the Son and in the Father and acknowledge and honor both as God (John 5) (I John 2).
(Now, One Person being One God who created another person to 'perform' creation for Himself, and later blessed that created being with immortality for good deeds done as a mortal man on earth...That is not a mystery. That is a mangled mystical mess made up of pagan men in pseudo Christian garb. And Christians have neither fellowship nor unity with Greekified pagan god-makers, who refuse to worship Jesus as Christ, because they consider that to be a blasphemy of worshipping the creature as the Creator)
That's an interesting point that I've never come across before. The Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges commentary on John 1:18 says:
the only begotten Son] The question of reading here is very interesting. Most MSS. and versions have ‘the only-begotten Son’ or ‘only-begotten Son.’ But the three oldest and best MSS. and two others of great value have ‘only-begotten God.’ The test of the value of a MS., or group of MSS., on any disputed point, is the extent to which it admits false readings on other points not disputed. Judged by this test the group of MSS. which read ‘only-begotten God’ is very strong; while the far larger group of MSS. which have ‘Son’ for ‘God’ is comparatively weak, for the same group of MSS. might be quoted in defence of a multitude of readings which no one would think of adopting. Again, the revised Syriac, which is among the minority of versions that support ‘God,’ is here of special weight, because it agrees with MSS. from which it usually differs. We conclude, therefore, that the very unusual expression ‘only-begotten God’ is the true reading, which has been changed to the usual ‘only-begotten Son,’ a change which in an old Greek MS. would involve the alteration of only a single letter. Both readings can be traced up to the second century, which again is evidence that the Gospel was written in the first century. Such differences take time to spread themselves widely.
Jesus is the Lord, and there is one Lord, and the Lord He is God.
Jesus is the Lord and God. (If A = B, and B = C, then A = B & C)
Simple analytics. Unless of course you are Apollyon the Great, the Greek Grandmaster of garbling the King's English.
In the beginning when God created the heaven and the earth, the Word with God was God.
Gen 1:1 and John 1:1 together in sense and in unity.
If the Greek Interpreter says 'In the beginning of the Word', then he must also say 'In the beginning of God'...
Else he is no interpreter, and he certainly ain't Greek.
Jesus is the Lord and God. (If A = B, and B = C, then A = B & C)
Simple analytics. Unless of course you are Apollyon the Great, the Greek Grandmaster of garbling the King's English.
In the beginning when God created the heaven and the earth, the Word with God was God.
Gen 1:1 and John 1:1 together in sense and in unity.
If the Greek Interpreter says 'In the beginning of the Word', then he must also say 'In the beginning of God'...
Else he is no interpreter, and he certainly ain't Greek.
(I posted this in the discussion "The Seed of your Righteousness", but it seems appropriate to include it in this discussion also.)
Background information on the Trinity
The doctrine of the Trinity is a false doctrine that neither Jesus nor God taught. It is an error that did not begin to be elaborated and formulated until the beginning of the fourth century AD. The following is a quote from the conclusion of The Church of the First Three Centuries, written by Alvan Lamson, published by Walker Fuller and Company, 1865, Boston, page 396:
“...The modern doctrine of the trinity is not found in any document or relic belonging to the Church of the first three centuries. Letters, art, usage theology, worship, creed, hymn, chant, doxology, ascription, commemorative rite and festive observance, so far as any remains or any record of them are preserved, coming down from early times, are, as regards this doctrine, an absolute blank. They testify, as far as they testify at all, to the supremacy of the Father, the only true God; and to the inferior and derived nature of the son. There is nowhere among these remains a co-equal trinity. The cross is there; Christ is there as the good shepherd, the Father’s hand placing a crown, or a victor’s wreath, on his head; but no undivided three, co-equal, infinite, self existent, and eternal. This was a conception to which the age had not arrived. It was of later origin.”
The following is a quote from The New Catholic Encyclopaedia, 1967, s.v. “Trinity, Holy”:
“...There is recognition on the part of historians of dogma and systematic theologians that when one does speak of an unqualified Trinitarianism, one has moved from the period of Christian origins, say the last quadrant of the fourth century. It was only then that what might be called the definitive Trinitarian dogma “One God In Three Persons” became thoroughly assimilated into Christian life and thought. .... The dogmatic formula “One God In Three Persons” was the product of three centuries of doctrinal development.”
In the book A Statement of Reasons, Andrews Norton says of the Trinity, “We can trace the history of this doctrine, and discover its source, not in the Christian revelation, but in the Platonic philosophy . . . The Trinity is not a doctrine of Christ and his Apostles, but a fiction of the school of the later Platonists.”
God’s chosen people, the Israelites, were surrounded by nations that believed in multiple gods. That is why the Old Testament has many warnings to avoid other gods and to worship only the one true God. However, as the Gospel spread across Europe and Asia, the new convert’s pagan beliefs began to be intermixed with the true word of God. Those pagan religions had many gods, but there were often three “head gods” that were said to “agree in one”, e.g.
Greek Trinity: Zeus, Athena and Apollo
Roman Trinity: Jupiter, Mercury and Venus
Babylonian Trinity: Venus, The Moon and The Sun
Hindu Trinity: Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva
When these pagan beliefs were mixed with the word of God, the truth was corrupted and errors and confusion were introduced, some of which became very misleading. The Trinity doctrine is a perfect example. This ridiculous doctrine would have us believe that God is either three beings all sharing only one body, or one being with three bodies. Trinitarians don’t know which of the creedal statements to take – some say one and some say the other. It also seems strange that only two of these three beings have names, which are the Father, called Yahweh (or Jehovah), and the Son, called Yeshua (or Jesus). Why doesn’t the Holy Spirit have a name if it is a co-equal being?
The Apostle Paul warned of the doctrinal errors that would develop and which were even developing in his day, during the first century AD, e.g. 2 Timothy 1:13-15 (REB), “Hold to the outline of sound teaching which you heard from me, living by the faith and love which are ours in Christ Jesus. Keep safe the treasure put into our charge, with the help of the Holy Sprit dwelling within us. As you are aware, everyone in the province of Asia deserted me, including Phygelus and Hermogenes”, 2 Timothy 2:15-18 (REB), “… keep strictly to the true gospel, avoiding empty and irreligious chatter; those who indulge in it will stray farther and farther into godless ways, and the infection of their teaching will spread like gangrene. Such are Hymenaeus and Philetus; in saying that our resurrection has already taken place they are wide of the truth and undermine people’s faith”, and Romans 16:17,18 “Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.”
However, Church scholars have continued to debate and come up with alternative theories about who Jesus was right up to our day, with recent theories even suggesting that the New Testament’s statements about Jesus are largely mythical and not literal. They think that phrases like “raised from the dead” are not to be taken literally! (Jesus’ statement in Matt 22:29 springs to mind, “Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God”!)
It’s said that the Vatican has a library full of studies of the Trinity written by many bishops over the centuries, and that they all come to the same conclusion, which is that “it’s a mystery”! Such is the confusion of the false doctrine that nobody can fully understand it, and even if anyone thinks they understand it, it’s still not the truth! Jesus prayed to God for the church, saying “Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth” (John 17:17), and the doctrine of the Trinity is not part of God’s word.
(To be continued.)
Background information on the Trinity
The doctrine of the Trinity is a false doctrine that neither Jesus nor God taught. It is an error that did not begin to be elaborated and formulated until the beginning of the fourth century AD. The following is a quote from the conclusion of The Church of the First Three Centuries, written by Alvan Lamson, published by Walker Fuller and Company, 1865, Boston, page 396:
“...The modern doctrine of the trinity is not found in any document or relic belonging to the Church of the first three centuries. Letters, art, usage theology, worship, creed, hymn, chant, doxology, ascription, commemorative rite and festive observance, so far as any remains or any record of them are preserved, coming down from early times, are, as regards this doctrine, an absolute blank. They testify, as far as they testify at all, to the supremacy of the Father, the only true God; and to the inferior and derived nature of the son. There is nowhere among these remains a co-equal trinity. The cross is there; Christ is there as the good shepherd, the Father’s hand placing a crown, or a victor’s wreath, on his head; but no undivided three, co-equal, infinite, self existent, and eternal. This was a conception to which the age had not arrived. It was of later origin.”
The following is a quote from The New Catholic Encyclopaedia, 1967, s.v. “Trinity, Holy”:
“...There is recognition on the part of historians of dogma and systematic theologians that when one does speak of an unqualified Trinitarianism, one has moved from the period of Christian origins, say the last quadrant of the fourth century. It was only then that what might be called the definitive Trinitarian dogma “One God In Three Persons” became thoroughly assimilated into Christian life and thought. .... The dogmatic formula “One God In Three Persons” was the product of three centuries of doctrinal development.”
In the book A Statement of Reasons, Andrews Norton says of the Trinity, “We can trace the history of this doctrine, and discover its source, not in the Christian revelation, but in the Platonic philosophy . . . The Trinity is not a doctrine of Christ and his Apostles, but a fiction of the school of the later Platonists.”
God’s chosen people, the Israelites, were surrounded by nations that believed in multiple gods. That is why the Old Testament has many warnings to avoid other gods and to worship only the one true God. However, as the Gospel spread across Europe and Asia, the new convert’s pagan beliefs began to be intermixed with the true word of God. Those pagan religions had many gods, but there were often three “head gods” that were said to “agree in one”, e.g.
Greek Trinity: Zeus, Athena and Apollo
Roman Trinity: Jupiter, Mercury and Venus
Babylonian Trinity: Venus, The Moon and The Sun
Hindu Trinity: Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva
When these pagan beliefs were mixed with the word of God, the truth was corrupted and errors and confusion were introduced, some of which became very misleading. The Trinity doctrine is a perfect example. This ridiculous doctrine would have us believe that God is either three beings all sharing only one body, or one being with three bodies. Trinitarians don’t know which of the creedal statements to take – some say one and some say the other. It also seems strange that only two of these three beings have names, which are the Father, called Yahweh (or Jehovah), and the Son, called Yeshua (or Jesus). Why doesn’t the Holy Spirit have a name if it is a co-equal being?
The Apostle Paul warned of the doctrinal errors that would develop and which were even developing in his day, during the first century AD, e.g. 2 Timothy 1:13-15 (REB), “Hold to the outline of sound teaching which you heard from me, living by the faith and love which are ours in Christ Jesus. Keep safe the treasure put into our charge, with the help of the Holy Sprit dwelling within us. As you are aware, everyone in the province of Asia deserted me, including Phygelus and Hermogenes”, 2 Timothy 2:15-18 (REB), “… keep strictly to the true gospel, avoiding empty and irreligious chatter; those who indulge in it will stray farther and farther into godless ways, and the infection of their teaching will spread like gangrene. Such are Hymenaeus and Philetus; in saying that our resurrection has already taken place they are wide of the truth and undermine people’s faith”, and Romans 16:17,18 “Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.”
However, Church scholars have continued to debate and come up with alternative theories about who Jesus was right up to our day, with recent theories even suggesting that the New Testament’s statements about Jesus are largely mythical and not literal. They think that phrases like “raised from the dead” are not to be taken literally! (Jesus’ statement in Matt 22:29 springs to mind, “Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God”!)
It’s said that the Vatican has a library full of studies of the Trinity written by many bishops over the centuries, and that they all come to the same conclusion, which is that “it’s a mystery”! Such is the confusion of the false doctrine that nobody can fully understand it, and even if anyone thinks they understand it, it’s still not the truth! Jesus prayed to God for the church, saying “Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth” (John 17:17), and the doctrine of the Trinity is not part of God’s word.
(To be continued.)
Background information on the Trinity (continued)
Note that the writings of the apostle Paul contain no support for the Trinity, and he claimed to have received the gospel direct from Jesus: “I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel - which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned! Am I now trying to win the approval of men, or of God? Or am I trying to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a servant of Christ. I want you to know, brothers, that the gospel I preached is not something that man made up. I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ” (Gal 1:6-12, NIV).
However, Paul’s words were not heeded. The Council of Nicaea in 325 AD declared that God and Jesus were a duality. For many years, there had been much opposition on Biblical grounds to the developing idea that Jesus was God. To try to solve the dispute, Roman emperor Constantine summoned all bishops to Nicaea. About 300, a fraction of the total number of bishops, actually attended the meeting, the majority coming from eastern churches.
At the time Constantine was not a Christian. Supposedly, he converted later in life, but he was not baptized until he lay dying. Regarding him, Henry Chadwick says in The Early Church: “Constantine, like his father, worshipped the Unconquered Sun; ... his conversion should not be interpreted as an inward experience of grace ... It was a military matter. His comprehension of Christian doctrine was never very clear, but he was sure that victory in battle lay in the gift of the God of the Christians.”
Despite not being a Christian and his lack of knowledge of the Scriptures, “Constantine himself presided, actively guiding the discussions, and personally proposed ... the crucial formula expressing the relation of Christ to God in the creed issued by the council, “of one substance with the Father” ... Overawed by the emperor, the bishops, with two exceptions only, signed the creed, many of them much against their inclination” (Encyclopaedia Britannica). It was only about 12 years earlier that the Romans stopped persecuting Christians, so the bishops were naturally nervous about disagreeing with and upsetting the Emperor.
After two months of furious religious debate, this pagan politician had intervened and decided in favour of those who said that Jesus was God. Why? It was certainly not because of any Biblical conviction. “Constantine had basically no understanding whatsoever of the questions that were being asked in Greek theology”, says A Short History of Christian Doctrine. What he did understand was that religious division was a threat to his empire, and he wanted to solidify his domain. None of the bishops at Nicaea promoted a Trinity, however. They decided only the nature of Jesus but not the role of the Holy Spirit. If a Trinity had been a clear Bible truth, surely they would have proposed it at the same time?
After Nicaea, debates on the subject continued for decades. Those who believed that Jesus was not equal to God even came back into favour for a time. But later Emperor Theodosius decided against them. He established the creed of the Council of Nicaea as the standard for his realm and convened the Council of Constantinople in 381 AD to clarify the formula. That council agreed to place the Holy Spirit on the same level as God and Christ. For the first time, Christendom’s Trinity began to come into focus. Yet, even after the Council of Constantinople, the Trinity did not become a widely accepted creed. Many opposed it and thus brought on themselves violent persecution. It was only in later centuries that the Trinity was formulated into set creeds.
Thus, in the fourth century AD, the apostasy (abandoning of something that one once believed in) foretold by Jesus and the apostles (e.g. 2 Thessalonians 2:3 “Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first”) came into full bloom. The development of the doctrine of the Trinity was just one evidence of this.
Note that the writings of the apostle Paul contain no support for the Trinity, and he claimed to have received the gospel direct from Jesus: “I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel - which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned! Am I now trying to win the approval of men, or of God? Or am I trying to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a servant of Christ. I want you to know, brothers, that the gospel I preached is not something that man made up. I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ” (Gal 1:6-12, NIV).
However, Paul’s words were not heeded. The Council of Nicaea in 325 AD declared that God and Jesus were a duality. For many years, there had been much opposition on Biblical grounds to the developing idea that Jesus was God. To try to solve the dispute, Roman emperor Constantine summoned all bishops to Nicaea. About 300, a fraction of the total number of bishops, actually attended the meeting, the majority coming from eastern churches.
At the time Constantine was not a Christian. Supposedly, he converted later in life, but he was not baptized until he lay dying. Regarding him, Henry Chadwick says in The Early Church: “Constantine, like his father, worshipped the Unconquered Sun; ... his conversion should not be interpreted as an inward experience of grace ... It was a military matter. His comprehension of Christian doctrine was never very clear, but he was sure that victory in battle lay in the gift of the God of the Christians.”
Despite not being a Christian and his lack of knowledge of the Scriptures, “Constantine himself presided, actively guiding the discussions, and personally proposed ... the crucial formula expressing the relation of Christ to God in the creed issued by the council, “of one substance with the Father” ... Overawed by the emperor, the bishops, with two exceptions only, signed the creed, many of them much against their inclination” (Encyclopaedia Britannica). It was only about 12 years earlier that the Romans stopped persecuting Christians, so the bishops were naturally nervous about disagreeing with and upsetting the Emperor.
After two months of furious religious debate, this pagan politician had intervened and decided in favour of those who said that Jesus was God. Why? It was certainly not because of any Biblical conviction. “Constantine had basically no understanding whatsoever of the questions that were being asked in Greek theology”, says A Short History of Christian Doctrine. What he did understand was that religious division was a threat to his empire, and he wanted to solidify his domain. None of the bishops at Nicaea promoted a Trinity, however. They decided only the nature of Jesus but not the role of the Holy Spirit. If a Trinity had been a clear Bible truth, surely they would have proposed it at the same time?
After Nicaea, debates on the subject continued for decades. Those who believed that Jesus was not equal to God even came back into favour for a time. But later Emperor Theodosius decided against them. He established the creed of the Council of Nicaea as the standard for his realm and convened the Council of Constantinople in 381 AD to clarify the formula. That council agreed to place the Holy Spirit on the same level as God and Christ. For the first time, Christendom’s Trinity began to come into focus. Yet, even after the Council of Constantinople, the Trinity did not become a widely accepted creed. Many opposed it and thus brought on themselves violent persecution. It was only in later centuries that the Trinity was formulated into set creeds.
Thus, in the fourth century AD, the apostasy (abandoning of something that one once believed in) foretold by Jesus and the apostles (e.g. 2 Thessalonians 2:3 “Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first”) came into full bloom. The development of the doctrine of the Trinity was just one evidence of this.
"Then said the LORD unto Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you..." (Ex 16)
"I am that bread of life. This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die." (John 6)
Jesus came down from heaven where He was, and returned to heaven where He had been everlasting.
The bread of Life is not a created being. No prophet nor apostle nor anointed king of Israel ever came down from heaven to be the bread of Life for all men.
Created beings do not come down from heaven, they only fall from heaven as Lucifer (Isaiah 14) (Luke 10).
"And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven." (John 3)
He came down as God and went up as God and man: the man Christ Jesus, who is God and man in heaven.
"And the LORD came down upon mount Sinai, on the top of the mount..." (Ex 19) There is one Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, Who came down from heaven on the mount Sinai to establish the First Covenant, and He came down from heaven in the womb of Mary to establish the New. And He has gone up into heaven again as forerunner of them that believe.
"I am that bread of life. This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die." (John 6)
Jesus came down from heaven where He was, and returned to heaven where He had been everlasting.
The bread of Life is not a created being. No prophet nor apostle nor anointed king of Israel ever came down from heaven to be the bread of Life for all men.
Created beings do not come down from heaven, they only fall from heaven as Lucifer (Isaiah 14) (Luke 10).
"And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven." (John 3)
He came down as God and went up as God and man: the man Christ Jesus, who is God and man in heaven.
"And the LORD came down upon mount Sinai, on the top of the mount..." (Ex 19) There is one Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, Who came down from heaven on the mount Sinai to establish the First Covenant, and He came down from heaven in the womb of Mary to establish the New. And He has gone up into heaven again as forerunner of them that believe.
I can't find anywhere in the Bible that says "the Lord He is God". Just saying it doesn't make it the truth, confirm it by quoting from the Bible.
"You believe that God is one. You do well. The demons also believe, and shudder" (James 2:19).
"I can't find anywhere in the Bible that says "the Lord He is God"."
I found it for you:
"Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God; there is none else beside him." (Deut 4)
Twice:
"Know ye that the LORD he is God: it is he that hath made us, and not we ourselves; we are his people, and the sheep of his pasture." (Psalms 110)
And for desert:
"God is the LORD, which hath shewed us light...Yea, happy is that people, whose God is the LORD." (Ps 118, 144)
And have ye not read so much as this: "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD..." (Deut 6)
The Lord, He is God, and God is the Lord, and there is one Lord, even the Lord our God, Jesus Christ.
Now isn't that much more refreshing, simple, and easy to understand than all that MS, MSS, PMS skullduggery? I believe the Jehovahites have a little worm dug into their brains, a Greek worm, that they call 'Knowledge', and it just won't die, because they just won't let it.
"Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched." (Mark 9)
"I have said to corruption, Thou art my father: to the worm, Thou art my mother, and my sister." (Job 17)
I don't know about others, but I for one have no interest in allowing their mystery Mother Worm in my brain. No way. I mean, why in the name of the Lord God and Savior Jesus Christ, would I forsake His faith and worship in order to be a twofold more worm of hell than they??
No way.
(The Greek Worm of Knowledge: G-WoK. I think Jehovahites been reading way too much of their own Jabberwoky)
I found it for you:
"Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God; there is none else beside him." (Deut 4)
Twice:
"Know ye that the LORD he is God: it is he that hath made us, and not we ourselves; we are his people, and the sheep of his pasture." (Psalms 110)
And for desert:
"God is the LORD, which hath shewed us light...Yea, happy is that people, whose God is the LORD." (Ps 118, 144)
And have ye not read so much as this: "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD..." (Deut 6)
The Lord, He is God, and God is the Lord, and there is one Lord, even the Lord our God, Jesus Christ.
Now isn't that much more refreshing, simple, and easy to understand than all that MS, MSS, PMS skullduggery? I believe the Jehovahites have a little worm dug into their brains, a Greek worm, that they call 'Knowledge', and it just won't die, because they just won't let it.
"Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched." (Mark 9)
"I have said to corruption, Thou art my father: to the worm, Thou art my mother, and my sister." (Job 17)
I don't know about others, but I for one have no interest in allowing their mystery Mother Worm in my brain. No way. I mean, why in the name of the Lord God and Savior Jesus Christ, would I forsake His faith and worship in order to be a twofold more worm of hell than they??
No way.
(The Greek Worm of Knowledge: G-WoK. I think Jehovahites been reading way too much of their own Jabberwoky)
keithr makes some really good comments. Enjoyed the biblical supports for your beliefs. Did you ever read John 17:1 then John 17:3 where Jesus calls his Father the only True God?
In John 17:1 Jesus raises his eyes to heaven addressing his Father in public prayer then in John 17:3 Jesus state,
"This means everlasting life, their coming to know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ."
I should do an article entitled Scriptures that trinitarians won't talk about.
In John 17:1 Jesus raises his eyes to heaven addressing his Father in public prayer then in John 17:3 Jesus state,
"This means everlasting life, their coming to know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ."
I should do an article entitled Scriptures that trinitarians won't talk about.
- Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be Your Name.
- Jesus said to him: “Why do you call Me good? Nobody is good except one, God.” (Mark 10:18)
- Status
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