WHERE IS TRUTH?

GracePeace · May 7, 2021

Grailhunter said:
In correct. The Jewish Christians still observed the Saturday Jewish sabbath...and kept the Mosaic Law, which is one the reasons that polygamy did not stop among Christians. And the Jewish Christians were among the judaizers that dogged Paul's ministry. The Jewish Christians sect died out with the twelve Apostles very early in Christian history. No Jewish Christian writing survived the 1st
century.

It is incorrect to say "Jewish Christians... kept the Mosaic Law", especially as if the fact that some Jewish Christians erred, and still lived "under Law", was somehow a definitive statement about Christianity : Paul, a Jewish Christian (and an authoritative apostle), was "not under Law" 1 Corinthians 9:20.

Grailhunter · May 7, 2021

Randy Kluth said:
You can separate OT and NT. B

I do not have to, Christ and the Apostles did it.

Grailhunter · May 7, 2021

Randy Kluth said:
But historic Christianity has rejected Marcion beliefs, which separated the testaments.

LOL Marcion was Gnostic. A little different than we are not under the Law.

Randy Kluth said:
Again, you seem to not understand Paul's burden in saying this and other similar things. The Law was *not* bad, to Paul. It was, however, designed to show the incapacity of Man to find Salvation in it. It made them recognize that righteousness comes from heaven, and not from ourselves alone.

The Law faded away because it had been intended by God to be only a temporary covering. I'm sorry that you don't get that. But if you don't get that, you don't understand the NT Scriptures at all!

I have already quoted the scriptures that cover this. If scripture means nothing to you we do not need to continue.

Randy Kluth said:
As I said, there is no difference between a Jewish Christian and a non-Jewish Christian, except that they have different ethnic origins. They have the same laws to live by, and the same Christ.

So far just about every sentence you type is wrong.
So if you want to continue start a thread or pm me. This is not the topic of this thread....second request to move on.

Grailhunter · May 7, 2021

GracePeace said:
It is incorrect to say "Jewish Christians... kept the Mosaic Law", especially as if the fact that some Jewish Christians erred, and still lived "under Law", was somehow a definitive statement about Christianity : Paul, a Jewish Christian (and an authoritative apostle), was "not under Law" 1 Corinthians 9:20.

The twelve Apostles were Jewish Christians and some of them observed the law and customs of Judaism. Including the Saturday Jewish Sabbath. James, the brother of Christ, who was not one of the twelve became the leader of the Jewish Christians. How this happened is not exactly clear. And it is possible that the other Jewish Christians Apostles abandon him and went on their own ministries. Paul indicates that he is only seeing James and Peter in Jerusalem when he visits.

The Apostle Paul was an educated Jew and came from a Jewish / Roman family. The Apostle Paul's ministry was to the Pagan converts that the Bible calls Gentiles, he wrote or influenced 16 of the 27 books of the New Testament. He preached emphatically that Christians were not under the Law.

Randy Kluth · May 7, 2021

Grailhunter said:
LOL Marcion was Gnostic. A little different than we are not under the Law.

Marcion saw a different god in each testament. And you see the God of the Law as a negative, and the God of the NT as a positive--just like Marcion. It places you in some very bad company! I wouldn't say that everything Marcion believed is what you believe--I'm just outlining where you seem to identify with him, and it isn't good. It's the very thing Marcion is known for. It places you squarely in the camp of heresy.

Grailhunter said:
I have already quoted the scriptures that cover this. If scripture means nothing to you we do not need to continue.

I've already told you I'm not interested in your trashing the God of the Law. Feel free to quit, if you please!

Grailhunter said:
So far just about every sentence you type is wrong.
So if you want to continue start a thread or pm me. This is not the topic of this thread....second request to move on.

Maybe you should take seriously my complaints about your posts? You seem to figure me to be young and ignorant, which I'm not. I've spent a lifetime in this stuff, though I claim to be expert in nothing. I'm just interested in straightening you out, so you can grow in the Spirit of Christ. You can't do that with the kind of attitude and beliefs you're espousing.

Randy Kluth · May 7, 2021

Grailhunter said:
I do not have to, Christ and the Apostles did it.

No, they didn't--not in the way Marcion did. They saw no contradiction between the God of the NT and the God of the OT. The NT fulfilled the OT, and the OT was intended, by God, to be fulfilled in the NT. Absolutely no contradiction in their minds. But you have some very confused notions about what God intended under the Law, viewing them as evil. This is a form of "trashing God," and "trashing His Law." None of that is historic, nor doctrinally-orthodox, Christianity. But I'm sure you know that, since you've deliberately chosen to embrace, and to teach, Liberal Christianity.

Grailhunter · May 7, 2021

Randy Kluth said:
Marcion saw a different god in each testament. And you see the God of the Law as a negative, and the God of the NT as a positive--just like Marcion. It places you in some very bad company! I wouldn't say that everything Marcion believed is what you believe--I'm just outlining where you seem to identify with him, and it isn't good. It's the very thing Marcion is known for. It places you squarely in the camp of heresy.

I've already told you I'm not interested in your trashing the God of the Law. Feel free to quit, if you please!

Maybe you should take seriously my complaints about your posts? You seem to figure me to be young and ignorant, which I'm not. I've spent a lifetime in this stuff, though I claim to be expert in nothing. I'm just interested in straightening you out, so you can grow in the Spirit of Christ. You can't do that with the kind of attitude and beliefs you're espousing.

Off the thread

Grailhunter · May 7, 2021

Randy Kluth said:
No, they didn't--not in the way Marcion did. They saw no contradiction between the God of the NT and the God of the OT. The NT fulfilled the OT, and the OT was intended, by God, to be fulfilled in the NT. Absolutely no contradiction in their minds. But you have some very confused notions about what God intended under the Law, viewing them as evil. This is a form of "trashing God," and "trashing His Law." None of that is historic, nor doctrinally-orthodox, Christianity. But I'm sure you know that, since you've deliberately chosen to embrace, and to teach, Liberal Christianity.

Off the thread

Randy Kluth · May 7, 2021

Grailhunter said:
Off the thread

I don't agree at all. You asked the question why there are so many divisions in Christianity, and then raised the question why so many different beliefs about various topics. My answer to you directly responds to these questions. You are displaying one of the reasons for lack of agreement, a turning away from Scriptural Christianity. Your liberal brand of Christianity forces Christians to separate from your liberal beliefs, because they don't correspond with historic, doctrinally-orthodox Christianity.

As such, my response, that your view is liberal and heretical, is completely on-topic. It is one of the major reasons there are divisions in Christianity, particularly between conservative groups and liberal groups within Christianity.

Of course, liberals will claim they have an inside scoop on what the Scriptures really mean. But this doesn't jibe with how historic Christianity views it. You may not like my answer, but it is, in fact, on topic!

Randy Kluth · May 7, 2021

Grailhunter said:
Off the thread

Cop out. Marcion-like beliefs are what have caused many of the divisions in history, aberrational beliefs that conservative Christianity cannot countenance. Therefore, divisions must come to safeguard the truth.

Grailhunter · May 7, 2021

Randy Kluth said:
I don't agree at all. You asked the question why there are so many divisions in Christianity, and then raised the question why so many different beliefs about various topics. My answer to you directly responds to these questions. You are displaying one of the reasons for lack of agreement, a turning away from Scriptural Christianity. Your liberal brand of Christianity forces Christians to separate from your liberal beliefs, because they don't correspond with historic, doctrinally-orthodox Christianity.

As such, my response, that your view is liberal and heretical, is completely on-topic. It is one of the major reasons there are divisions in Christianity, particularly between conservative groups and liberal groups within Christianity.

Of course, liberals will claim they have an inside scoop on what the Scriptures really mean. But this doesn't jibe with how historic Christianity views it. You may not like my answer, but it is, in fact, on topic!

Not the topic.
Start a thread and I will be happy to take you to school.

Grailhunter · May 7, 2021

Randy Kluth said:
Cop out. Marcion-like beliefs are what have caused many of the divisions in history, aberrational beliefs that conservative Christianity cannot countenance. Therefore, divisions must come to safeguard the truth.

Not the topic.
Start a thread and I will be happy to take you to school.

GracePeace · May 7, 2021

Grailhunter said:
The twelve Apostles were Jewish Christians and some of them observed the law and customs of Judaism. Including the Saturday Jewish Sabbath. James, the brother of Christ, who was not one of the twelve became the leader of the Jewish Christians. How this happened is not exactly clear. And it is possible that the other Jewish Christians Apostles abandon him and went on their own ministries. Paul indicates that he is only seeing James and Peter in Jerusalem when he visits.

The Apostle Paul was an educated Jew and came from a Jewish / Roman family. The Apostle Paul's ministry was to the Pagan converts that the Bible calls Gentiles, he wrote or influenced 16 of the 27 books of the New Testament. He preached emphatically that Christians were not under the Law.

Including Jewish Christians explicitly. Read Romans 7:1-6.

Grailhunter · May 7, 2021

GracePeace said:
Including Jewish Christians explicitly. Read Romans 7:1-6.

Explain.
What do you think that means?

GracePeace · May 7, 2021

Grailhunter said:
Explain.
What do you think that means?

Death exempts a Jew from his obligation to serve by Torah--it's an ancient Pharisaic doctrine which was eventually codified in Talmud (Niddah 61b) (Paul was a Pharisee). You should enjoy this short conversation on the subject

Grailhunter · May 7, 2021

GracePeace said:
Death exempts a Jew from his obligation to serve by Torah--it's an ancient Pharisaic doctrine which was eventually codified in Talmud (Niddah 61b) (Paul was a Pharisee). You should enjoy this short conversation on the subject

Ok I will bite...
Niddah (or nidah; Hebrew: נִדָּה‎), in traditional Judaism, describes a woman who has experienced bloody vaginal discharge (most commonly during menstruation), or a woman who has menstruated and not yet completed the associated requirement of immersion in a mikveh (ritual bath).
Not sure what this point is? And was there ever a question that death exempts a Jew from his obligation to serve by Torah. Is there a way a Jew could server the Torah after they are dead?

GracePeace · May 7, 2021

Grailhunter said:
Ok I will bite...
Niddah (or nidah; Hebrew: נִדָּה‎), in traditional Judaism, describes a woman who has experienced bloody vaginal discharge (most commonly during menstruation), or a woman who has menstruated and not yet completed the associated requirement of immersion in a mikveh (ritual bath).
Not sure what this point is? And was there ever a question that death exempts a Jew from his obligation to serve by Torah. Is there a way a Jew could server the Torah after they are dead?

1. Read the passage in Niddah 61b.

2. Listen to the conversation.

Only after you do these two things will you be able to understand why I brought Romans 7:1-6 up.

Grailhunter · May 7, 2021

GracePeace said:
1. Read the passage in Niddah 61b.

2. Listen to the conversation.

Only after you do these two things will you be able to understand why I brought Romans 7:1-6 up.

I did all that...but its connection to 7:1-6 is a matter of interpretation...I can offer one, put that does not mean it is right.
The video, from what I can hear, is talking about a garment of different fabric that is prohibited....this discussion does occur in extra biblically Jewish writings Talmud.
And there are different interpretations of this...Seeing the death of the Old Covenant, Jews are freed from there first husband and are not required to follow the Mosaic Law.

GracePeace · May 7, 2021

Grailhunter said:
I did all that...but its connection to 7:1-6 is a matter of interpretation...I can offer one, put that does not mean it is right.
The video, from what I can hear, is talking about a garment of different fabric that is prohibited....this discussion does occur in extra biblically Jewish writings Talmud.
And there are different interpretations of this...Seeing the death of the Old Covenant, Jews are freed from there first husband and are not required to follow the Mosaic Law.

You haven't read carefully : the issue is that they have a teaching, based in Scripture (as Paul's argument is based in Scripture), that a Jew may be buried in a type of cloth which is illicit for a living Jew because he is "free among the dead" (free from the obligation to serve by the Law)... but what about when that Jew is resurrected from the dead? He will be breaking the Law! The response is : "this infers that the Law is done away in the hereafter". Paul's argument is we have died with Christ and so are exempt from serving through Law and are now under the authority of Grace for serving God.

Grailhunter · May 7, 2021

GracePeace said:
Paul's argument is we have died with Christ and so are exempt from serving through Law and are now under the authority of Grace for serving God.

On this I agree.

WHERE IS TRUTH?

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