The old image of redemption and the new.

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BloodBought 1953

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You do hold that Christians are "not under Law" Romans 6:14 don't you? Am I understanding you correctly?



You seem to be new here.....allow me to butt-In and save a lot of valuable Computer ink—— here is what he is reluctant to talk about these days, But the following is what he really believes......” Jesus Saves, But once you know “ that” ya gotta Repent Of All Of your Sins before you die or you will wind up in Hell”
He and his Spiritual “ Buddy” , Ferris Bueller Both hold to this False, Perverted Gospel Addition....they are “ Fallen From Grace” as anybody familiar with the Book Of Galatians knows....
 

justbyfaith

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So, you disagree with Paul who says Christians are "not under Law"?

I think you are misunderstanding what "under" means or what "Law" means, but you're misunderstanding something.

If you say "not under Law" means "not condemned by the Law", then what does "under Grace" mean? Condemned by Grace? LOL!

under grace simply means "not under the law as concerning condemnation".

"The Law of Messiah" is obviously not "the Law of Moses" : Christ repudiates the Torah in Matthew 5 and in Matthew 19--see my post here.

Jesus upheld the law of Moses in the immediate context of what you have quoted...in Matthew 5:17-20.

Yes, and? None of this contradicts the statement that we're "not under Law".

I don't deny that we are "not under the law"...as concerning condemnation.

But the things that I have mentioned show that as Christians we are to be obedient to the law.

Consider that sin is the transgression of the law (1 John 3:4)....and that we are exhorted as Christians not to sin (1 Corinthians 15:34, Ephesians 4:26, 1 John 3:6).

Explain how this is relevant as a response to what I'm asserting--ie, "we're not under Law but under Grace".

We are not under the law as concerning condemnation.

However, as concerning obedience, we are in fact called to be obedient to the spirit of what is written in the law (Romans 7:6; Hebrews 8:8-10; Hebrews 10:16, Romans 8:7, Romans 8:4, 1 John 5:3, 2 John 1:6, Romans 13:8-10, Galatians 5:14; Romans 5:5).

The righteousness of God attested to by the Law and Prophets refers to being forgiven.

It refers to the fact that when we bear the fruit of the Spirit, there is no law that will condemn our behaviour (Galatians 5:22-23) and to the fact that when we walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit, the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in us (Romans 8:4).

The Law of Liberty is what is written in the believers' hearts, not the Torah.

The Ten Commandments, at the very least, are included in the law of liberty (James 2:10-12).

Also, impossible to ignore, Paul is BOTH "not under Law" AND "within Messiah's Law" 1 Corinthians 9:20-21, so, no, the Law of Messiah cannot be the Law of Moses.

There is another way of looking at that apparent contradiction....by considering that Paul is not under the law as concerning condemnation (being forgiven through the blood of Christ, his relationship to the law is changed in that he is no loner condemned by it) but that he is under the law (not "of" Christ, but "to" Christ) as concerning obedience (see Matthew 5:17-20).

You seem to be new here.....allow me to butt-In and save a lot of valuable Computer ink—— here is what he is reluctant to talk about these days, But the following is what he really believes......” Jesus Saves, But once you know “ that” ya gotta Repent Of All Of your Sins before you die or you will wind up in Hell”
He and his Spiritual “ Buddy” , Ferris Bueller Both hold to this False, Perverted Gospel Addition....they are “ Fallen From Grace” as anybody familiar with the Book Of Galatians knows....

Yes, and even Galatians 5:19-21 substantiates my viewpoint....if you work the works of the flesh you will not inherit the kingdom...therefore, to inherit the kingdom, you must cease from doing so...i.e. repent...

I also encourage the reader to take the time to really look at Ezekiel 33:11-20; and meditate on what it means for your life.

Also Matthew 3...

Surely, Ezekiel and John the Baptist were fallen from grace for preaching a false and perverted gospel!
 

GracePeace

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Paul was not lawless
And he said he was dead to the Law, not under the Law,and taught others the same. What he means is "there is a new way to serve God in righteousness" not "go sin". Grace makes you able to keep the righteous requirement of God's Law.
 

GracePeace

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under grace simply means "not under the law as concerning condemnation".
Nope! LOL You need to read the Greek. "Under" there means "under the jurisdiction of". Being "under Grace" means Grace authoritatively informs your service to God, just as the Law previously was ostensibly the method of service. "Under grace" means you are under its authority.

Jesus upheld the law of Moses in th immediate context of what you have quoted...in Matthew 5:17-20.
Clearly He didn't mean what you think He did since He went on to contradict Torah. I take that statement (the only way it can be taken) as meaning "the INTENT of the Law is eternal : the Law says to respect God and don't fail to pay your vows, but I say respect God and don't make any vows at all. See? Again, if vv17-20 meant what you are wanting them to mean He could never have said "Yeah, the Torah says ___ BUT I say ___".

Consider that sin is the transgression of the law (1 John 3:4)....and that we are exhorted as Christians not to sin (1 Corinthians 15:34, Ephesians 4:26, 1 John 3:6).
If someone sins they do transgress the Law, but not all transgression of the Law is sin : the priests work on the Sabbath for instance.

However, as concerning obedience, we are in fact called to be obedient to the spirit of what is written in the law (Romans 7:6; Hebrews 8:8-10; Hebrews 10:16, Romans 8:7, Romans 8:4, 1 John 5:3, 2 John 1:6, Romans 13:8-10, Galatians 5:14; Romans 5:5).
Again, though, the lifestyle you're describing is a life "not under Law but under Grace"--Grace enabled the Gentile Christians to be deemed "doers of the Law" while being ignorant of the Law Romans 2:14-15, Romans 2:26-27.

It refers to the fact that when we bear the fruit of the Spirit, there is no law that will condemn our behaviour (Galatians 5:22-23) and to the fact that when we walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit, the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in us (Romans 8:4).
Romans 4:6-8

The Ten Commandments, at the very least, are included in the law of liberty (James 2:10-12.
That's not the point. The content is not the point. Much of the content is the same. The issue is the METHOD of service--"through the Law I died to the Law that I might live to God" means "by the Law's own demand, I died to it so I might live to God--those who go back under Law DISOBEY the very Law they pretend to obey, and they are dead to God".

There is another way of looking at that apparent contradiction....by considering that Paul is not under the law as concerning condemnation (being forgiven through the blood of Christ, his relationship to the law is changed in that he is no loner condemned by it) but that he is under the law (not "of" Christ, but "to" Christ) as concerning obedience (see Matthew 5:17-20).
No, "under Law" doesn't mean "for condemnation". That's not what the Greek means. The Greek indicates the meaning is "you are not under the authority of the Law for service to God but under Grace for service to God".

Yes, and even Galatians 5:19-21 substantiates my viewpoint....if you work the works of the flesh you will not inherit the kingdom...therefore, to inherit the kingdom, you must cease from doing so...i.e. repent...
What's the METHOD? Grace. "If you walk in the Spirit you won't fulfill the desires of the flesh". The Law corresponds to flesh Romans 8:3, Grace corresponds to God Jeremiah 23:6.
 
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GracePeace

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"through the Law I died to the Law that I might live to God" means "by the Law's own demand, I died to it so I might live to God--those who go back under Law DISOBEY the very Law they pretend to obey, and they are dead to God".
You should enjoy this discussion

Sounds like Paul eh? It should. He was a Pharisee too. :)
 

justbyfaith

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To that I say, Nope.

LOL You need to read the Greek. "Under" there means "under the jurisdiction of". Being "under Grace" means Grace authoritatively informs your service to God, just as the Law previously was ostensibly the method of service. "Under grace" means you are under its authority.

Right. I would say that also, those who are under grace are not disobedient to the law. In bearing the fruit of the Spirit, there is no law that can condemn our behaviour (Galatians 5:22-23). So then, in bearing the fruit of the Spirit, we become law-abiding citizens of the kingdom.

Clearly He didn't mean what you think He did since He went on to contradict Torah.

No; He did not contradict the Torah.

I take that statement (the only way it can be taken) as meaning "the INTENT of the Law is eternal : the Law says to respect God and don't fail to pay your vows, but I say respect God and don't make any vows at all. See? Again, if vv17-20 meant what you are wanting them to mean He could never have said "Yeah, the Torah says ___ BUT I say ___".

Jesus may have been here referring to the wisdom of Ecclesiastes 5:4-5; wherein Solomon said that it is better not to vow than to vow and not pay. Jesus was offering a word of wisdom here rather than contradicting the Torah.

Again, though, the lifestyle you're describing is a life "not under Law but under Grace"--Grace enabled the Gentile Christians to be deemed "doers of the Law" while being ignorant of the Law Romans 2:14-15, Romans 2:26-27.

The fact is that they became, not disobedient to the law of Moses, in that they bore the fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23).

So, while they were not under the law, they were not disobedient to the law.

We may have to agree to disagree on the matter of whether or not the law applies to the believer in condemnation. I believe that it doesn't; because the born again believer is forgiven of all of his sins; and therefore the law does not apply to him in condemnation.

It does, however, apply as concerning obedience; for it is written on the heart and mind of the New Covenant believer (Hebrews 8:8-10; Hebrews 10:16, Romans 8:7, Romans 8:4, 1 John 5:3, 2 John 1:6, Romans 13:8-10, Galatians 5:14; Romans 5:5).

Romans 4:6-8

Are you here, attempting to pit scripture against scripture?

I will say that your scripture does not nullify the scriptures that I have referenced; for scripture does not contradict other scripture. If there appears to be a contradiction, there is always a reconciliation.

That's not the point. The content is not the point. Much of the content is the same. The issue is the METHOD of service--"through the Law I died to the Law that I might live to God" means "by the Law's own demand, I died to it so I might live to God--those who go back under Law DISOBEY the very Law they pretend to obey, and they are dead to God".

I will agree with you and say that grace is the means by which we become, not disobedient to the law. For we receive the Holy Spirit by the grace of the Lord; and if we walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit, the righteousness of the law will be fulfilled in us (Romans 8:4).

No, "under Law" doesn't mean "for condemnation". That's not what the Greek means. The Greek indicates the meaning is "you are not under the authority of the Law for service to God but under Grace for service to God".

Nevertheless, the law is written on the hearts and minds of New Covenant believers (Hebrews 8:8-10; Hebrews 10:16, Romans 8:7, Romans 8:4, 1 John 5:3, 2 John 1:6, Romans 13:8-10, Galatians 5:14; Romans 5:5).

I will agree that we are not disobedient to the law because of grace. For we receive the love of the Lord, being shed abroad in our hearts (Romans 5:5) because of grace.

And this love is not impractical (1 John 3:17-18); it is also the fulfilling of the righteousness of the law within us (Romans 13:8-10, Galatians 5:14, 1 John 5:3, 2 John 1:6, Romans 8:4).
 

GracePeace

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To that I say, Nope.



Right. I would say that also, those who are under grace are not disobedient to the law. In bearing the fruit of the Spirit, there is no law that can condemn our behaviour (Galatians 5:22-23). So then, in bearing the fruit of the Spirit, we become law-abiding citizens of the kingdom.



No; He did not contradict the Torah.



Jesus may have been here referring to the wisdom of Ecclesiastes 5:4-5; wherein Solomon said that it is better not to vow than to vow and not pay. Jesus was offering a word of wisdom here rather than contradicting the Torah.



The fact is that they became, not disobedient to the law of Moses, in that they bore the fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23).

So, while they were not under the law, they were not disobedient to the law.

We may have to agree to disagree on the matter of whether or not the law applies to the believer in condemnation. I believe that it doesn't; because the born again believer is forgiven of all of his sins; and therefore the law does not apply to him in condemnation.

It does, however, apply as concerning obedience; for it is written on the heart and mind of the New Covenant believer (Hebrews 8:8-10; Hebrews 10:16, Romans 8:7, Romans 8:4, 1 John 5:3, 2 John 1:6, Romans 13:8-10, Galatians 5:14; Romans 5:5).



Are you here, attempting to pit scripture against scripture?

I will say that your scripture does not nullify the scriptures that I have referenced; for scripture does not contradict other scripture. If there appears to be a contradiction, there is always a reconciliation.



I will agree with you and say that grace is the means by which we become, not disobedient to the law. For we receive the Holy Spirit by the grace of the Lord; and if we walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit, the righteousness of the law will be fulfilled in us (Romans 8:4).



Nevertheless, the law is written on the hearts and minds of New Covenant believers (Hebrews 8:8-10; Hebrews 10:16, Romans 8:7, Romans 8:4, 1 John 5:3, 2 John 1:6, Romans 13:8-10, Galatians 5:14; Romans 5:5).

I will agree that we are not disobedient to the law because of grace. For we receive the love of the Lord, being shed abroad in our hearts (Romans 5:5) because of grace.

And this love is not impractical (1 John 3:17-18); it is also the fulfilling of the righteousness of the law within us (Romans 13:8-10, Galatians 5:14, 1 John 5:3, 2 John 1:6, Romans 8:4).
Well, I need to keep repeating myself. I thought I should offer an explanation for your sake and the sake of the readers to help remove confusion.

One last clarification : God's writing His Law on believers' hearts doesn't mean they're "under Law", that's the definition of being "under Grace".

You so-called "Torah observant" are the most obstinate people (aside from OSASers and Monergists)--you don't care about truth, you think you're smart and you're intellectually dishonest. Talking with you is like talking to a, wall. Quite unfortunate.
 

justbyfaith

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What do you think it means that the law is written on the hearts and minds of New Covenant believers who are under grace; if it does not mean that we are "Torah observant"?

I will tell you that I am not a stickler for the letter of the law. I don't believe that we are even able to keep it (Galatians 6:13).

However, I do believe that the righteousness of the law, as concerning the spirit of the law (Romans 7:6), can be fulfilled in us (Romans 8:4).

The spirit of what is written is in fact, largely defined by the letter of what is written.

However, in the Jesus way, such things as "love thy neighbor as thyself" is more important than the letter of "Keep the sabbath day to make it holy"...

Jesus Himself healed on the sabbath day on not a few occasions; and in doing so He violated the letter of the sabbath day law; which said, "In it thou shalt not do any work." (Exodus 20:10).

Jesus claimed to do work on the sabbath day (John 5:16-18).

But of course, Jesus is the Lord of the sabbath day; and He was in all of that teaching us the difference between the letter of the law and the spirit of what is written. You can be certain that Jesus observed the spirit of the sabbath as a day of rest; but that when it came to the work of the Father, He did the work of the Father on the sabbath day; because the Father was working and Jesus' works were merely a reflection of everything that His Father did.

That being said, I do not believe that even one jot or tittle shall pass away from the law until after heaven and earth have passed away (Matthew 5:17-20). Since I desire to be called great in the kingdom, I am going to seek to observe and teach even the least of the commandments written in the Torah.

Of course the laws concerning animal sacrifices are fulfilled in that they are types and shadows pointing forward to the sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross; and they are fulfilled in Him.

But I will say that I have my reasons for believing that we are not even to cross materials in garments so that you have both linen and wool; or polyester and cotton; or any other combination in any kind of fabric.
 

GracePeace

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What do you think it means that the law is written on the hearts and minds of New Covenant believers who are under grace; if it does not mean that we are "Torah observant"?

I will tell you that I am not a stickler for the letter of the law. I don't believe that we are even able to keep it (Galatians 6:13).

However, I do believe that the righteousness of the law, as concerning the spirit of the law (Romans 7:6), can be fulfilled in us (Romans 8:4).

The spirit of what is written is in fact, largely defined by the letter of what is written.

However, in the Jesus way, such things as "love thy neighbor as thyself" is more important than the letter of "Keep the sabbath day to make it holy"...

Jesus Himself healed on the sabbath day on not a few occasions; and in doing so He violated the letter of the sabbath day law; which said, "In it thou shalt not do any work." (Exodus 20:10).

Jesus claimed to do work on the sabbath day (John 5:16-18).

But of course, Jesus is the Lord of the sabbath day; and He was in all of that teaching us the difference between the letter of the law and the spirit of what is written. You can be certain that Jesus observed the sabbath as a day of rest; but that when it came to the work of the Father, He did the work of the Father on the sabbath day; because the Father was working and Jesus works were merely a reflection of everything that His Father did.

That being said, I do not believe that even one jot or tittle shall pass away from the law until after heaven and earth have passed away (Matthew 5:17-20). Since I desire to be called great in the kingdom, I am going to seek to observe and teach even the least of the commandments written in the Torah.

Of course the laws concerning animal sacrifices are fulfilled in that they are types and shadows pointing forward to the sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross; and they are fulfilled in Him.

But I will say that I have my reasons for believing that we are not even to cross materials in garments so that you have both linen and wool; or polyester and cotton; or any other combination in any kind of fabric.
You must've forgotten I already stated Gentile believers are "doers of the Law"--I put "Torah observant" in quotation marks for a reason (not because I don't think Christians fulfill the righteous requirement of the Law).

Anyway, what I've said will have to do. I'm not interested in talking to a brick wall.
 

CadyandZoe

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Let me warn you in advance....this post may be a little graphic.

The Lord gave me a dream last night. There was an image of my redeemed soul on my toilet, like a reflection on the water, that had been placed there the last time I had gone to the bathroom. When I peed on it, it dissolved.

I believe that the Lord spoke to me concerning this, and said that when I had my experience of being redeemed in 1989, that it created an image of my redeemed self, when I defecated (going #1 in my toilet) on who I was before my redemption, accepting the reality of Jeremiah 17:9.

And I believe that He is saying that by defecating (going #1) on the image of who I became back then, that that image will be dissolved and a new image will be able to form.

I am to consider that who I am in the flesh is that I am "the chief of sinners" and that my "heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked; who can know it?" (Jeremiah 17:9).

In taking on this attitude that who I am in the flesh is sinful, God tells me that He considers that I have "an honest and good heart" (Luke 8:15). He will create me in a new image of redemption as I "defecate" on my old image of redemption...saying that it is a Jeremiah 17:9 heart.

As I continue to take on the attitude that I have a Jeremiah 17:9 heart, God will respond with justification in my life; saying that my heart is a Luke 8:15 heart.

How I perceive myself will always be different than how God sees me.

If I think of myself as good, the Lord will think of me as evil.

But if I think of myself as evil, the Lord will be able to change my behaviour as I rely on the Holy Spirit to live His life in me and through me; and thus the life that is lived out in my flesh will be one of bearing the fruit of goodness (Galatians 2:20, Galatians 5:22-23).

In seeing myself as evil, I will be less inclined to live my own life and will be more inclined to allow Christ to live His life in me and through me.

Thus a new image of redemption will be formed as who I was before dissolves because I disrespect the old image by counting it as a Jeremiah 17:9 heart.
I'm sorry to see that your original message got lost. You were talking about an attitude and a walk in accordance with your new insights into the true nature of repentance. My post here is simply to say that I agree with you and that your insight is most profound in my opinion.

As for your choice of analogy, it isn't one that I would have used but I know someone who did.

Philippians 3:
7 But whatever things were gain to me, those things I have counted as loss for the sake of Christ. 8 More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ, 9 and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith, 10 that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death; 11 in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.


The word translated "rubbish" in verse 8 is "σκύβαλα:dung"