God Destroys Righteous Ones Who Fail to Endure and Shrink Back

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Hidden In Him

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Since without endurance, there is no inheriting of the promise AND there is "destruction", it seems safe to say it refers to going to hell instead of heaven.


Yes. By the statement, "we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who have faith and preserve their souls," it seems clear enough that the writer meant they would preserve the salvation of their souls if they endured until the return of the Lord Jesus Christ.
 

APAK

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Since without endurance, there is no inheriting of the promise AND there is "destruction", it seems safe to say it refers to going to hell instead of heaven.
So is that your summary of Hebrews 10:36-39 that concludes with your meaning of destruction, as hell? Whom should go to hell? Christians or unbelievers or both? Kind of cryptic to me as it stands. An expansion of your interpretation and logic would be nice. No need to respond if you cannot comply...Great Day though..APAK
 
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GracePeace

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So is that your summary of Hebrews 10:36-39 that concludes with your meaning of destruction, as hell? Whom should go to hell? Christians or unbelievers or both? Kind of cryptic to me as it stands. An expansion of your interpretation and logic would be nice. No need to respond if you cannot comply...Great Day though..APAK
Read the entire chapter. It's all a warning to believers.

But, again, it says "you have need of endurance if you want to inherit the promise, because if God's righteous one does not endure, God will not be pleased and will destroy him". It couldn't be clearer.
 

GracePeace

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You have to admit, Paul did use the "drunk with wine" analogy...

Maybe if Pentecost had happened today someone might have thought they had been toking some really, really good stuff.


25-marijuana-memes.png
Apparently, the ancient Romans knew about marijuana back then, too, yet the analogy wasn't used.

I may be wrong, and I am open to God changing my mind, and I may be a little "Riligulous", but I am not doing that to God's Name. "Hallowed be Thy Name" precludes me from combining His Name to that.
 
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Hidden In Him

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Apparently, the ancient Romans knew about marijuana back then, too, yet the analogy wasn't used.

I may be wrong, and I am open to God changing my mind, and I may be a little "Riligulous", but I am not doing that to God's Name. "Hallowed be Thy Name" precludes me from combining His Name to that.

Yes. "Don't be Riligulous!"

Surely He frowns upon it, yea verily.
 

APAK

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Read the entire chapter. It's all a warning to believers.

But, again, it says "you have need of endurance if you want to inherit the promise, because if God's righteous one does not endure, God will not be pleased and will destroy him". It couldn't be clearer.

It's clear this select scripture is not a warning to believers at all. It is a warning to unbelievers, especially Judaizers. It is like in Hebrews Chapter 6., and verse 4-6 especially.

Hebrews 10:36-39 is about both believers and unbelievers. The believer does not draw back and return to the Law once again, as many Jews did at that time. These never 'return' to Christ and were never saved. The scripture speaks to genuine believers who persistent under pressure over a life time, in trials and even persecutions to continue to do God's will and receive the promise of eternal life after they die. They are told that Christ will return on time and he won't be late to deliver. Verse 38 refers to especially any Jew who returns to the Law after entertaining the gospel message and Christ. They are the ones that draw back, and draw back to the Law. They are the ones who go to perdition whilst the believer preserves his spirit to eternal life.


APAK
 

GracePeace

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It's clear this select scripture is not a warning to believers at all. It is a warning to unbelievers, especially Judaizers. It is like in Hebrews Chapter 6., and verse 4-6 especially.

Hebrews 10:36-39 is about both believers and unbelievers. The believer does not draw back and return to the Law once again, as many Jews did at that time. These never 'return' to Christ and were never saved. The scripture speaks to genuine believers who persistent under pressure over a life time, in trials and even persecutions to continue to do God's will and receive the promise of eternal life after they die. They are told that Christ will return on time and he won't be late to deliver. Verse 38 refers to especially any Jew who returns to the Law after entertaining the gospel message and Christ. They are the ones that draw back, and draw back to the Law. They are the ones who go to perdition whilst the believer preserves his spirit to eternal life.


APAK
Thanks for sharing your viewpoint.
I've shared why I disagree.
 

APAK

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Thanks for sharing your viewpoint.
I've shared why I disagree.
You have not shared anything of the sort. You cannot explain your OP at all. You just plucked down your view without any support or explanation at all. That's why I queried your OP in the first place. Enjoy your own contrived delusion of grandeur. It will catch up with you in the end of course
 
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GracePeace

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You have not shared anything of the sort. You cannot explain your OP at all. You just plucked down your view without any support or explanation at all. That's why I queried your OP in the first place. Enjoy your own contrived delusion of grandeur. It will catch up with you in the end of course
Well, we disagree. I believe I have shared good reasons for my reading.
I can't invent new words--the words mean what the words mean.
What else do you want me to do? I'm simply stating the words.

You can't contort them, so you apparently just outright reject them.

They say : believers, God's righteous ones, need endurance if they want to inherit the promise, but if they do not endure, and shrink back, then God will be displeased and will destroy them.

Demonstrate to everyone why that reading is wrong.

I see no reason, including in your responses, for me not to read it the way I have.
 
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APAK

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Well, I can't invent new words--the words mean what the words mean.
You can't contort them, so you apparently just outright reject them.

I see no reason, including in your responses, for me not to read it the way I have.
The problem is you do not understand the words, and especially the context mate...they go together. You have to think how the writer wrote in his language and his entire audience for starters. The English translation of scripture and the placement of these words cannot be always taken nonchalantly as reading casual modern English prose. You will not read for understanding this way. I'm actually trying to help here and tell you one cannot just trust any text, and not necessarily scripture, when its translated from it original language into another....say French into English etc...caution and thought is required if truly interested in getting it 'right.'
 

GracePeace

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The problem is you do not understand the words, and especially the context mate...they go together. You have to think how the writer wrote in his language and his entire audience for starters. The English translation of scripture and the placement of these words cannot be always taken nonchalantly as reading casual modern English prose. You will not read for understanding this way. I'm actually trying to help here and tell you one cannot just trust any text, and not necessarily scripture, when its translated from it original language into another....say French into English etc...caution and thought is required if truly interested in getting it 'right.'
Again, prove I haven't understood.
Demonstrate.
 

GracePeace

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As I suspected, you are really are saying you cannot explain your view. Later then dude....
I've explained my view.
You have retorted "that's wrong!"
You have been asked to substantiate your screeching.
You have failed to do so.
You now cry bitterly that I am not explaining my view.
What is your problem?

I've never met an honest OSASer in my life. Not once.
 

GracePeace

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Sorry, I thought your post was so ridiculous, I didn't even bother treating it.
I will do so now.

It's clear this select scripture is not a warning to believers at all. It is a warning to unbelievers...
So, according to you, "My Righteous One will live by faith, and if he shrinks back" refers to unbelievers. Interesting "take".
Unbelievers live by faith and are called "My Righteous One".
All right.

It is like in Hebrews Chapter 6., and verse 4-6 especially.
Those guys are examples of precisely what Hebrews 10:36-39 warns--they are the "Righteous Ones" who do not endure, but shrink back, so they don't inherit the promise but are destroyed. Why? "Without faith it is impossible to please God." They no longer have faith, thus God has "no pleasure in them".

Hebrews 10:36-39 is about both believers and unbelievers.
Let's see if you can substantiate that.
Nope, I see nowhere in the context where people who've never believed are being addressed.
Sorry!

The believer does not draw back and return to the Law once again, as many Jews did at that time.
Reading Galatians prayerfully will disabuse you of this embarrassing fallacy someone planted in your mind--eg, Galatians 3:2-3, Galatians 4:10, Galatians 4:21, Galatians 5:3-4, Galatians 5:7.

The scripture speaks to genuine believers who persistent under pressure over a life time, in trials and even persecutions to continue to do God's will and receive the promise of eternal life after they die. They are told that Christ will return on time and he won't be late to deliver. Verse 38 refers to especially any Jew who returns to the Law after entertaining the gospel message and Christ. They are the ones that draw back, and draw back to the Law. They are the ones who go to perdition whilst the believer preserves his spirit to eternal life.
So, granting that this is an issue of going back to the Law (which is an explanation I've heard given many times--I think more than one issue is addressed, but that is not important here), that would not present any danger to my position at all--in fact, it would comport with it very nicely, as that is precisely how many fell away from the faith (believing a false Gospel of justification by works of the Law) during that time (for which reason, Paul says, "there are many deceivers and empty talkers especially of the circumcision"). Whereas Paul said "...I died to the Law that I might live to God", these "die to God that they might live to the Law"--"you have been severed from Christ, you are fallen from grace."

I don't understand how you think any of these objections are substantive.
 

GracePeace

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I'm actually trying to help here and tell you one cannot just trust any text, and not necessarily scripture, when its translated from it original language into another....say French into English etc...caution and thought is required if truly interested in getting it 'right.'
So, why even discuss the Bible on an English-speaking website?

If you were consistent, you'd need to be discussing the New Testament on Biblical Greek-speaking sites, and the Old Testament on Biblical Hebrew and Aramaic speaking sites.

You're not being consistent, so clearly you don't even believe what you're saying yourself. Why should I believe it?
 

APAK

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So, why even discuss the Bible on an English-speaking website?

If you were consistent, you'd need to be discussing the New Testament on Biblical Greek-speaking sites, and the Old Testament on Biblical Hebrew and Aramaic speaking sites.

You're not being consistent, so clearly you don't even believe what you're saying yourself. Why should I believe it?

GP, I'm sorry you have to be so defensive. That was never my aim to you. I must have struck a nerve or something.

And calling my posts ridiculous does not alter the truth in scripture.

Look, I will for the last time response to you by looking only at your pivotal Hebrew 10:38 as the title of your thread.

I hope you can 'get it' this time.

As I said before, the translation of scripture into middle or modern English can lose its meaning quickly. And this verse is no exception. In fact is does loose some of the intent and meaning from the original language. And it has caused such contention as you now realize.

Here are some translations of the verse that you did not use:

New International Version
And, "But my righteous one will live by faith. And I take no pleasure in the one who shrinks back."

New Living Translation
And my righteous ones will live by faith. But I will take no pleasure in anyone who turns away.”

King James Bible
Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him

New King James Version
Now the just shall live by faith; But if anyone draws back, My soul has no pleasure in him.”

Contemporary English Version
The people God accepts will live because of their faith. But he isn't pleased with anyone who turns back."

The righteous live by faith indeed. And YHWH takes no pleasure in one or anyone pulling back with fear. He is displeased with him/her.

These translations you did not use try to maintain the integrity of the original Greek language intent of the verse. Instead of just using 'he' that has cause all the fuss, that you and many others link to the righteous and faith, they, correctly, try to separate the righteous and faithful to anyone that is NOT righteous or faithful by saying "if anyone' 'in the one' etc.

You see this translated verse is not modern English. It would be confusing and it evidentially is to you. To where you think that salvation cannot be trusted to YHWH our God, as you read these types of verses.

We must separate/detach the first part of the verse completely from the second part. There are two separate thoughts and two audiences spoken of in this verse.- the righteous and the wicked. We cannot call the righteous the wicked. That would nullify the word of God. For example, here are three OT versions of this verse with the same intent.

Psalm 5:4
For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee.

Psalm 147:11
The LORD taketh pleasure in them that fear him, in those that hope in his mercy.

Psalm 149:4
For the LORD taketh pleasure in his people: he will beautify the meek with salvation.

Again the thought of the author of Hebrews and in Psalms is to SEPARATE the righteous ones and the fearful (shrunken back out of fear) and wicked ones destined to 'hell'. You have even tried to add in as added support the use of verse 36 to compound and deepen your problem..the use of endurance....this is intellectual dishonesty at least.

I would suggest you take a very hard review of what I've said and see where you then stand, unbiased and how scripture is used and in context.

Our God can be trusted to save us, only one time is needed ,and forever, without our clumsy acts and legalist thoughts adding to the mix of his grace and the gift of salvation.

Bless you,

APAK
 
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GracePeace

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GP, I'm sorry you have to be so defensive. That was never my aim to you. I must have struck a nerve or something.
Me pointing your lack of consistency out is "being defensive"? Oh, boy, this should be fun LOL

And calling my posts ridiculous does not alter the truth in scripture.
That's hardly relevant since you hardly cite Scripture! LOL Beside, I met all your claims with Scripture (not a Scriptureless tangential rant, like you do), so, yeah, the truth of Scripture is being well taken care of. LOL

Look, I will for the last time response to you by looking only at your pivotal Hebrew 10:38 as the title of your thread.
Excellent!

I hope you can 'get it' this time.
You made no sense last time, so if you're going to regurgitate the same nonsense it's going to go badly for you LOL

As I said before, the translation of scripture into middle or modern English can lose its meaning quickly. And this verse is no exception. In fact is does loose some of the intent and meaning from the original language. And it has caused such contention as you now realize.

Here are some translations of the verse that you did not use:

New International Version
And, "But my righteous one will live by faith. And I take no pleasure in the one who shrinks back."

New Living Translation
And my righteous ones will live by faith. But I will take no pleasure in anyone who turns away.”

King James Bible
Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him

New King James Version
Now the just shall live by faith; But if anyone draws back, My soul has no pleasure in him.”

Contemporary English Version
The people God accepts will live because of their faith. But he isn't pleased with anyone who turns back."

The righteous live by faith indeed. And YHWH takes no pleasure in one or anyone pulling back with fear. He is displeased with him/her.

These translations you did not use try to maintain the integrity of the original Greek language intent of the verse. Instead of just using 'he' that has cause all the fuss, that you and many others link to the righteous and faith, they, correctly, try to separate the righteous and faithful to anyone that is NOT righteous or faithful by saying "if anyone' 'in the one' etc.

You see this translated verse is not modern English. It would be confusing and it evidentially is to you. To where you think that salvation cannot be trusted to YHWH our God, as you read these types of verses.
1. Actually, your problem seems to be you think you can play a Scriptural shell game. Sorry, I'm not forgetting the context--it says "You [believers, God's Righteous Ones] need endurance so that after you do God's will you may inherit what was promised", and that will be the governing thought moving forward Hebrews 10:36-39. I won't lose the forest for the trees as you hope I will. The topic is about the need for God's servants to hang on and endure. Why? Because if we don't God won't be pleased and will destroy and we won't inherit the promise.

2. There is no Savior but God Isaiah 43:11, so when anyone is saved, that salvation is effected by God--if I thought anything else it would be idolatry. Now, your problem is that you don't know Scripture. You think man has to has zero responsibility in order for God to be Savior. The precedent in Scripture is the exact opposite : God NEVER fulfills His "Savior" role without man's involvement! Even if you're telling me "don't try, and don't doubt that God can save you" that's giving me the responsibility to hold a certain disposition and belief without which you say God won't save.

We must separate/detach the first part of the verse completely from the second part. There are two separate thoughts and two audiences spoken of in this verse.- the righteous and the wicked. We cannot call the righteous the wicked. That would nullify the word of God.
Sorry that's "begging the question".
The very thing being debated is whether or not the righteous can fall away and thus be considered "not righteous", so you cannot assume what you're trying to prove is true in your defense of the thing you're trying to prove. LOL Wow. Same old ridiculousness.

For example, here are three OT versions of this verse with the same intent.

Psalm 5:4
For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee.

Psalm 147:11
The LORD taketh pleasure in them that fear him, in those that hope in his mercy.

Psalm 149:4
For the LORD taketh pleasure in his people: he will beautify the meek with salvation.

Again the thought of the author of Hebrews and in Psalms is to SEPARATE the righteous ones and the fearful (shrunken back out of fear) and wicked ones destined to 'hell'.
I love the verses you raised, but... they're completely irrelevant.
Just as I suspected, you wanted me to lose the forest for the trees. No. The context supports my view not yours.

You have even tried to add in as added support the use of verse 36 to compound and deepen your problem..the use of endurance....this is intellectual dishonesty at least.
Forgive me for using context, it's so intellectually dishonest! I should rip a single word out and use that single word to define an entire chapter! Now I'm "getting it"! LOL! Mmmm I love this Kool Aid! LOL!

I would suggest you take a very hard review of what I've said and see where you then stand, unbiased and how scripture is used and in context.
Wait... ummm... now I'm "getting" your confusion... you just accused me of "intellectual dishonesty" FOR taking it in context, now I'm being directed to take it in context... LOL!

Our God can be trusted to save us, only one time is needed ,and forever, without our clumsy acts and legalist thoughts adding to the mix of his grace and the gift of salvation.
That's a false dichotomy : God can be entrusted with our salvation AND we have responsibility (read Judges 7:2 (what was alluded to earlier) and following where God cannot be "Savior" unless and until the men listen to His instructions).

Bless you,

APAK
Like I said before, and proven again, there is absolutely nothing substantive to your objections--and I know you're coming from a good place, and I don't want to detract from that, but Scripture isn't on your side.
 

APAK

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1. Actually, your problem seems to be you think you can play a Scriptural shell game. Sorry, I'm not forgetting the context--it says "You [believers, God's Righteous Ones] need endurance so that after you do God's will you may inherit what was promised", and that will be the governing thought moving forward Hebrews 10:36-39. I won't lose the forest for the trees as you hope I will. The topic is about the need for God's servants to hang on and endure. Why? Because if we don't God won't be pleased and will destroy and we won't inherit the promise.

2. There is no Savior but God Isaiah 43:11, so when anyone is saved, that salvation is effected by God--if I thought anything else it would be idolatry. Now, your problem is that you don't know Scripture. You think man has to has zero responsibility in order for God to be Savior. The precedent in Scripture is the exact opposite : God NEVER fulfills His "Savior" role without man's involvement! Even if you're telling me "don't try, and don't doubt that God can save you" that's giving me the responsibility to hold a certain disposition and belief without which you say God won't save.

The very thing being debated is whether or not the righteous can fall away and thus be considered "not righteous"

God can be entrusted with our salvation AND we have responsibility (read Judges 7:2 (what was alluded to earlier) and following where God cannot be "Savior" unless and until the men listen to His instructions).

These words above are your exact words that I extracted from your post that sums up your entire thread on what you believe is the only way to your salvation; and you want others to believe the same. They would be wise not to. It is pitiful.

So this time you cannot run, deflect, eject chaff ('shell game,' 'forest from the tree(s)', 'but Scripture isn't on your side' 'you don't know scripture,' the scripture, they're completely irrelevant', and other diversions) along the way, and also add in a few LOLs to make it all see so frivolous and funny.

I think you need to address what you actually wrote for a change and really say what you mean as I have to you that is absent from your OP.

Instead of doing this, allow me to write your new more open and transparent version of your OP to the reader for you. I'm sure you would want that anyway.


So this is your understanding and belief of Hebrew 10:36-39 where the context you say is solely based on verse 36 alone (quite astonishing).

New proposed title of your Thread :

You righteous ones, You may be destroyed if you do not hang in there...and do some important work for your salvation

----------------this is the start of a more honest version and rewrite of your OP with a few LOLs that you seem to like adding in--------------------

Readers of this Thread hear hear hear ye....read and heed..

You, believers, must 'hang in there' to endure...meaning by yourself with your own works during trials and persecutions with strong faith that you need to maintain in order to do God's will so you MAY INHERIT (not WILL RECEIVE as scripture says) what he has promised (eternal life or completed salvation in a glorified body).

And you know God won't be pleased if YOU don't 'hang in there' and keep your faith up to do his will....so you can be saved. There is no other way. You must do your part....God will do his....

If you don't do your part, keep the faith etc, whatever, there's more.... I just cannot think of all the things that you need to do 'to hang in there' at this moment. Good works I guess helps you 'to hang in there,' and I nearly forgot, listen to his instructions, there are many of them, and so if you don't hang in there, then your previous righteousness as a believer will be destroyed along with you, and along with the wicked and you will not be saved. I say again, you will not be saved, you will be destroyed!

I'm saying the righteous ones like you can become unrighteous because Hebrews 10:36-39 tells me so, because they failed to 'hang in there' They shrank back or fell away or backwards from enduring, whatever that really means, and lost a 'certain amount' of faith along the way that God became displeased with and slated them for destruction. And they became wicked ones again as before they were reborn. Yes, they were un(reborn) and anyone that cannot understand this does not know scripture, or scripture is not on their side.

So, hang in there readers. or else....sudden destruction...LOL!!

-----------------------end of your new revised OP----------------

Good Luck with it..outa here..APAK
 

GracePeace

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These words above are your exact words that I extracted from your post that sums up your entire thread on what you believe is the only way to your salvation; and you want others to believe the same. They would be wise not to. It is pitiful.

So this time you cannot run, deflect, eject chaff ('shell game,' 'forest from the tree(s)', 'but Scripture isn't on your side' 'you don't know scripture,' the scripture, they're completely irrelevant', and other diversions) along the way, and also add in a few LOLs to make it all see so frivolous and funny.

I think you need to address what you actually wrote for a change and really say what you mean as I have to you that is absent from your OP.

Instead of doing this, allow me to write your new more open and transparent version of your OP to the reader for you. I'm sure you would want that anyway.


So this is your understanding and belief of Hebrew 10:36-39 where the context you say is solely based on verse 36 alone (quite astonishing).

New proposed title of your Thread :

You righteous ones, You may be destroyed if you do not hang in there...and do some important work for your salvation

----------------this is the start of a more honest version and rewrite of your OP with a few LOLs that you seem to like adding in--------------------

Readers of this Thread hear hear hear ye....read and heed..

You, believers, must 'hang in there' to endure...meaning by yourself with your own works during trials and persecutions with strong faith that you need to maintain in order to do God's will so you MAY INHERIT (not WILL RECEIVE as scripture says) what he has promised (eternal life or completed salvation in a glorified body).

And you know God won't be pleased if YOU don't 'hang in there' and keep your faith up to do his will....so you can be saved. There is no other way. You must do your part....God will do his....

If you don't do your part, keep the faith etc, whatever, there's more.... I just cannot think of all the things that you need to do 'to hang in there' at this moment. Good works I guess helps you 'to hang in there,' and I nearly forgot, listen to his instructions, there are many of them, and so if you don't hang in there, then your previous righteousness as a believer will be destroyed along with you, and along with the wicked and you will not be saved. I say again, you will not be saved, you will be destroyed!

I'm saying the righteous ones like you can become unrighteous because Hebrews 10:36-39 tells me so, because they failed to 'hang in there' They shrank back or fell away or backwards from enduring, whatever that really means, and lost a 'certain amount' of faith along the way that God became displeased with and slated them for destruction. And they became wicked ones again as before they were reborn. Yes, they were un(reborn) and anyone that cannot understand this does not know scripture, or scripture is not on their side.

So, hang in there readers. or else....sudden destruction...LOL!!

-----------------------end of your new revised OP----------------

Good Luck with it..outa here..APAK
1. You pretend I've tried to hide my view when I've been on here repeating myself over and over and over. Now you want to pretend like you've "exposed" me or like this is some kind of "gotcha"? Again, I don't understand how your mind manages to get things (everything) so wrong.

2. So... you have no answers.
As I suspected.
 
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