God Destroys Righteous Ones Who Fail to Endure and Shrink Back

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Philip James

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Some of God's righteous ones, alive by faith, shrink back and so are destroyed instead of inheriting the promise.

Hello GracePeace,

Your post reminded me of the Decian persecution in the 3rd century.

The emporer required everyone to offer sacrifice to the pagan Roman gods on behalf of the roman emporer..

Many Christians buckled under the persecution and repudiated their faith..

When the persecution ended, some of these, repenting of their weakness sought to return to Christ and His Church..

What to do with them caused no small controversy, as some held they could not be readmitted, while others held that they could but only after severe penances .. Sometines not being readmitted to Eucharist until years of penance had been observed...

Lord, grant us the strength to persevere through every trial, and have mercy on us, and on the whole world!

Peace be with you!
 
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GracePeace

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Hello GracePeace,

Your post reminded me of the Decian persecution in the 3rd century.

The emporer required everyone to offer sacrifice to the pagan Roman gods on behalf of the roman emporer..

Many Christians buckled under the persecution and repudiated their faith..

When the persecution ended, some of these, repenting of their weakness sought to return to Christ and His Church..

What to do with them caused no small controversy, as some held they could not be readmitted, while others held that they could but only after severe penances .. Sometines not being readmitted to Eucharist until years of penance had been observed...

Lord, grant us the strength to persevere through every trial, and have mercy on us, and on the whole world!

Peace be with you!
"And also with you." lol

Yes, may God grant peace.
 
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mailmandan

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It's clear this select scripture is not a warning to believers at all. It is a warning to unbelievers, especially Judaizers. It is like in Hebrews Chapter 6., and verse 4-6 especially.

Hebrews 10:36-39 is about both believers and unbelievers. The believer does not draw back and return to the Law once again, as many Jews did at that time. These never 'return' to Christ and were never saved. The scripture speaks to genuine believers who persistent under pressure over a life time, in trials and even persecutions to continue to do God's will and receive the promise of eternal life after they die. They are told that Christ will return on time and he won't be late to deliver. Verse 38 refers to especially any Jew who returns to the Law after entertaining the gospel message and Christ. They are the ones that draw back, and draw back to the Law. They are the ones who go to perdition whilst the believer preserves his spirit to eternal life.

APAK
In verse 39, the writer of Hebrews sets up the CONTRAST that makes it clear to me he was referring to unbelievers, not saved people who drew back to perdition: But WE are not OF THOSE who draw back to perdition, but OF THOSE who believe to the saving of the soul. Those who draw back to perdition do not believe to the saving of the soul and those who believe to the saving of the soul do not draw back to perdition.
 
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GracePeace

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In verse 39, the writer of Hebrews sets up the CONTRAST that makes it clear to me he was referring to unbelievers, not saved people who drew back to perdition: But WE are not OF THOSE who draw back to perdition, but OF THOSE who believe to the saving of the soul. Those who draw back to perdition do not believe to the saving of the soul and those who believe to the saving of the soul do not draw back to perdition.
If that was the only verse, perhaps you could make a case; as it is, the context, as I've already laid out (you should respond to my responses not the guy you already agree with), prove otherwise. The group of "My Righteous Ones" that fail to endure exist--eg, Hebrews 6 "impossible to renew them to faith".
 
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APAK

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In verse 39, the writer of Hebrews sets up the CONTRAST that makes it clear to me he was referring to unbelievers, not saved people who drew back to perdition: But WE are not OF THOSE who draw back to perdition, but OF THOSE who believe to the saving of the soul. Those who draw back to perdition do not believe to the saving of the soul and those who believe to the saving of the soul do not draw back to perdition.
Yep you are so right and been down that road with another person besides GP. They have to find a cute twisted scriptural meaning for all incoming. They have no choice if they want to keep their narrative safe and snug.
 
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APAK

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@mailmandan ...another point to mention. Notice that all or most of those folks that believe in works to an insecure salvation, particularly list scripture that include words like good works/deeds, endurance, what YOU DID in your body, and any other activity that requires work that seems to be apart or separate from spiritual works you did in your body by a genuine believer, that is valid and correct. They usually never want to speak of spiritual works...And you can see why. They choose these specific and carefully planned verses without actually breaking them down and explaining what they mean to prove their argument. And when asked to do this they usually avoid doing so. So they wait for someone else to attempt to do this breakdown. That's when the fireworks start. That is their trap and approach to actually confuse the issue at that point and still they never explain themselves these key words of work, and quickly accuse their opposition of ignorance of scripture, etc. They say they provide scripture and yet they cannot break them down because it may expose their vain attempt to win you over with works for salvation....this is one of their major tactics...they get nowhere and just confuse their arguments and misapply their pet selected scripture.

look for it....then you will think of what I just wrote...

Great Evening...APAK
 
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GracePeace

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@mailmandan ...another point to mention. Notice that all or most of those folks that believe in works to an insecure salvation, particularly list scripture that include words like good works/deeds, endurance, what YOU DID in your body, and any other activity that requires work that seems to be apart or separate from spiritual works you did in your body by a genuine believer, that is valid and correct. They usually never want to speak of spiritual works...And you can see why. They choose these specific and carefully planned verses without actually breaking them down and explaining what they mean to prove their argument. And when asked to do this they usually avoid doing so. So they wait for someone else to attempt to do this breakdown. That's when the fireworks start. That is their trap and approach to actually confuse the issue at that point and still they never explain themselves these key words of work, and quickly accuse their opposition of ignorance of scripture, etc. They say they provide scripture and yet they cannot break them down because it may expose their vain attempt to win you over with works for salvation....this is one of their major tactics...they get nowhere and just confuse their arguments and misapply their pet selected scripture.

look for it....then you will think of what I just wrote...

Great Evening...APAK
Anyone who wants can go through this thread and see what a complete mess you've made of things and how I've had to straighten you out on every thing you've stated. You truly are sad.
 
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APAK

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Anyone who wants can go through this thread and see what a complete mess you've made of things and how I've had to straighten you out on every thing you've stated. You truly are sad.
go whine to someone else mate. You had nothing and you have nothing now....you will burn out and go away...I predict it...very soon
 

GracePeace

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go whine to someone else mate. You had nothing and you have nothing now....you will burn out and go away...I predict it...very soon
You know false prophets were put to death under the Old Covenant right?
 

mailmandan

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If that was the only verse, perhaps you could make a case; as it is, the context, as I've already laid out (you should respond to my responses not the guy you already agree with), prove otherwise. The group of "My Righteous Ones" that fail to endure exist--eg, Hebrews 6 "impossible to renew them to faith".
I commonly hear three different interpretations for Hebrews 6:4-6 (hypothetical view, lost salvation view, never truly saved view) but am not convinced that it "unequivocally" teaches a really "saved" person truly "lost their salvation." In regards to the never truly saved view, the words, once enlightened - which means to bring to light, to shed light upon or to cause light to shine upon some object, in the sense of illuminating it. John 1:9 describes Jesus, the "true Light," giving light "to every man," but this cannot mean the light of salvation, because not every man is saved. The light either leads to the complete acceptance of Jesus Christ or produces condemnation in those who reject the light.

In regards to partakers of the Holy Spirit, the word translated “partaker” can certainly refer to a saving partaking in Christ, as we read in Hebrews 3:14, yet it can also refer to a less than saving association or participation. See Luke 5:7 and Hebrews 1:9 - "comrades, companions," which describes one who shares with someone else as an associate in an undertaking. These Hebrews who fell away had obviously in some aspect shared in the ministry of the Holy Spirit, but in what way? There are other ministries of the Holy Spirit which precede receiving the indwelling and sealing of the Holy Spirit, which only genuine believers receive..

Those who fall away absolutely could have been affiliated closely with the fellowship of the church. Such people certainly may have experienced sorrow for sin, heard and understood the gospel and have given some assent to it and have become associated with the work of the Holy Spirit while around believers and have tasted the heavenly gift and the powers of the age to come. They may have been exposed to the true preaching of the word of God, yet have simply tasted and stopped there. People who have experienced these factors may be genuine Christians, yet these factors alone are not enough to give conclusive evidence that the beginning stages of the Christian life (repentance unto life, regeneration, salvation, justification etc..) have taken place for those who fell away. The experiences in Hebrews 6:4-6 are all preliminary to those decisive beginning stages of becoming a Christian, yet some draw back to perdition after receiving the 'knowledge' of the truth and do not believe to the saving of the soul, as we see in (Hebrews 10:26-39)

These certain individuals who fall short of obtaining salvation certainly may have become partakers of the Holy Spirit in his pre-salvation ministry, convicting of sin and righteousness and judgment to come by tasting the good word of God and temporarily responded to His drawing power which is intended to ultimately lead sinners to Christ, yet the writer of Hebrews does not use conclusive terms that these individuals were "indwelled by the Holy Spirit" or "sealed by the Holy Spirit" or have "received the Spirit's pledge which is the guarantee of future inheritance." Genuine believers who have believed the gospel are sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession/unto the day of redemption. (Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30)

In regards to tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, they may have tasted in such a way as to give them an impression of the quality of what was tasted, yet they still fell away. Inherent in the idea of tasting is the fact that one might or might not decide to accept what is tasted. For example, the same Greek word (geuomai) is used in Matthew 27:34 to say that those crucifying Jesus "offered him wine to drink, mingled with gall; but when he tasted it, he would not drink it." Do we merely "taste" into one Spirit or drink into one Spirit? (1 Corinthians 12:13).

In regards to renew them again unto repentance, this does not specify whether the repentance was merely outward or genuine accompanied by saving faith. They have in some sense "repented," there may be sorrow for sins and an attempt to turn from them (moral self-reformation) that non-believers can experience. There is repentance that falls short of salvation, which is clear from Hebrews 12:7 and the reference to Esau, as well as the repentance of Judas Iscariot in Matthew 27:3. Paul refers to a repentance “without regret that leads to salvation,” which shows there is a repentance that does not lead to salvation. As with “belief/faith”, so too with “repentance,” we must always distinguish between what is substantial and results in salvation and what is spurious. Renew them again "unto salvation" would be conclusive evidence for your argument.

In Hebrews 6:7-8, we read - For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; but if it bears thorns and briars, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned. In this metaphor relating to agriculture, those who receive final judgment are compared to land that bears no vegetation or useful fruit, but rather bears thorns and thistles. We see in scripture where good fruit is a sign of spiritual life and a lack of good fruit is a sign of false believers (Matthew 3:8-10; 7:15-20; 12:33-35) so we have an indication that the trustworthy evidence of one's spiritual condition is the fruit they bear (whether good or bad), suggesting that the writer of Hebrews is talking about people who are not genuine believers.

*Verse 9 sums it up for me. The writer is speaking to those truly saved (refers to them as BELOVED). He says that even though he speaks like this concerning THOSE types of people, He is convinced of better things concerning YOU. Things that ACCOMPANY SALVATION. Thorns and briars and falling away permanently do not accompany salvation and are not fruits worthy of authentic repentance.

It's generally stated by those who believe that salvation can be lost that it can be regained again, yet that would not be the case here if the writer of Hebrews was teaching a loss of salvation. I have heard certain individuals state they know someone who was truly saved, but later lost their salvation, yet only God truly knows the heart of individuals. Certain people "on the surface" may do a good job of looking like the real deal for a while (like Judas Iscariot, who was an unbelieving, unclean devil who betrayed Jesus - John 6:64-71; 13:10-11) yet to the other 11 disciples, he looked like the real deal, but Jesus knew his heart. There are genuine Christians and there are "nominal" Christians. There are genuine believers and there are make believers and they are often mixed together, like wheat and tares.
 
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stunnedbygrace

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@mailmandan, can I pick your brain for a moment?
Can you give me your thoughts on Mathew 10:15?
I guess...specifically, what is the...fate/ end state/destination of sodom that is more tolerable on the day of judgement than the fate/ end state/destination of the people who reject the message of trusting God?
Where do they each...go or end up?
 

mailmandan

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@mailmandan, can I pick your brain for a moment?
Can you give me your thoughts on Mathew 10:15?
I guess...specifically, what is the...fate/ end state/destination of sodom that is more tolerable on the day of judgement than the fate/ end state/destination of the people who reject the message of trusting God?
Where do they each...go or end up?
Elsewhere we read Matthew 11:20 Then He began to rebuke the cities in which most of His mighty works had been done, because they did not repent: 21 “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22 But I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment than for you. 23 And you, Capernaum, who are exalted to heaven, will be brought down to Hades; for if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. 24 But I say to you that it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment than for you.”

The fate of all people who reject the message of trusting God is the same, yet there are those who believe Jesus is teaching that there will be degrees of punishment in Gehenna. In other words some will receive greater condemnation than others. In Matthew 23:14, we read - Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you devour widows’ houses, and for a pretense make long prayers. Therefore you will receive greater condemnation. Sodom and Gomorrah was a very wicked city (Jude 1:7) and yet these other cities of Israel would be more deserving of blame because they rejected greater light of the gospel presented by Jesus Christ Himself.
 

APAK

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I commonly hear three different interpretations for Hebrews 6:4-6 (hypothetical view, lost salvation view, never truly saved view) but am not convinced that it "unequivocally" teaches a really "saved" person truly "lost their salvation." In regards to the never truly saved view, the words, once enlightened - which means to bring to light, to shed light upon or to cause light to shine upon some object, in the sense of illuminating it. John 1:9 describes Jesus, the "true Light," giving light "to every man," but this cannot mean the light of salvation, because not every man is saved. The light either leads to the complete acceptance of Jesus Christ or produces condemnation in those who reject the light.
Blow me down mate. You have here a first class rebuttal to those that believe that one can become un-reborn once they are reborn with the Spirit that the Father placed there personally. Hats off and keep on truckin' on

I just want to add a type of supplement to it by mainly focusing on the context and background the author had in mind. Yes, it took a few revisions to compile over a short time as it stands today...and I will modify it as I see it lacking in substance and the truth. I need to relook at your post and then re-examine mine once more...Blessed day to you mate..APAK

------Hebrews 6--------------------

Three views:

View 1: These people were believers and lost their salvation. This is a cruel and incorrect interpretation devised by a simpleton and most probably an unsaved person.

View 2 is can be the correct interpretation. Remember the all-important context in interpreting scripture. The first 5 Chapter of Hebrews concerned Jews that once or continues to practice the Law. There are 3 audiences: new believers, non-believers and those that were contemplating on becoming a believer. The correct view concerns those in the audience that are still on the fence about taking the leap of faith to Christ and not returning back to the Law.

The ‘therefore’ at the beginning of Chapter 6 is referring to what was said in the first five Chapters. So, it begins with Paul wanting the audience to reflect back on the first five Chapters.

The first 5 Chapters speaks to the shadows and figures that point to Christ. So, in Chapter 6 Paul is saying to his audience not to go back into the past and believe in the shadows, you now have Christ as the real thing for salvation.

Verses 1-8
Verse 1 then speaks to the audience of the non-believers or those contemplating on reaching Christ not to forget the truths in the OT, but to move beyond it, to maturity to SALVATION. Not to go back to the figures and shadows of the OT. Not to go back to repentance from dead works, or back to the ceremonies. Not to just the belief in the Father only.

Verse 2 means: Not to go back to the instructions concerning ceremonial washings as in Leviticus. Not going back to the laying of hands as in the day of atonement to transfer sins to a scape goat. Not to just believe in the resurrection of the dead and the final judgment.

Verses 3-6: These people were never ‘saved’ with the Spirit - yet. They were unbelievers. They were enlightened, meaning having knowledge or even shown a brief review of the truth of the gospel. They tasted and partook of the Holy Spirit with Jesus, the heavenly gift. It meant they saw the works and miracles of Jesus or the acts of the apostles and in their mind muddled over it all, although it never stuck with them (as in the parable of the soils/rocks and like Simon Magnus in Acts). And they even heard the gospel preached – the good word (as John the Baptist preached). If they ‘fall away’ or discard from what they had known and seen, and therefore reject faith in it, and become apostate, how can they be renewed, or their repentance received, or come back into believing in the gospel and Christ again. They decided to reject the truth. They ‘fell away!’ They did not continue to salvation. Therefore, they really believed that Christ deserved to be on the cross. These have no hope of return to ‘eternal’ life! The Law cannot save them with 'new' sacrifices, and for sure Christ was not another 'animal' sacrifice where he could revisit the cross again in the future. The age of Grace had arrived!

Verses 7 and 8 tell of the consequences of having all this knowledge and those that still do not want to be saved. Experiencing the rain of God brought to them as the knowledge of the truth and rejecting it shall produce works of destruction of spiritual death.

View 3 is also a correct view if and only if in verse 6 it says ‘parapesontas’ and not the term ‘apostasia’. And then this View 3 addresses the audience of new ex-Jew immature believers in Christ, and they are not maturing because of their past and present attachment to the Law. In verse 6, if the Greek term ‘parapesontas’ is not the term ‘apostasia’ it does not mean ‘fall away.’ It then means to ‘fall to one side or aside or to wander.’ To stop or slow down toward stronger faith. Their faith was very weak and susceptible to compromise with false doctrine and belief.

See also Psalms 51:1-19 concerning the subject of Once Saved Always Saved (OSAS) with David and his grief over his personal sins, who knew all along, he was still saved. He repented to his Father. He never lost faith eventhough sin was in his life as with all people.

---------------------APAK---Bless you mate-------------
 
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stunnedbygrace

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Elsewhere we read Matthew 11:20 Then He began to rebuke the cities in which most of His mighty works had been done, because they did not repent: 21 “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22 But I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment than for you. 23 And you, Capernaum, who are exalted to heaven, will be brought down to Hades; for if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. 24 But I say to you that it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment than for you.”

The fate of all people who reject the message of trusting God is the same, yet there are those who believe Jesus is teaching that there will be degrees of punishment in Gehenna. In other words some will receive greater condemnation than others. In Matthew 23:14, we read - Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you devour widows’ houses, and for a pretense make long prayers. Therefore you will receive greater condemnation. Sodom and Gomorrah was a very wicked city (Jude 1:7) and yet these other cities of Israel would be more deserving of blame because they rejected greater light of the gospel presented by Jesus Christ Himself.

That’s what I wondered when I first read it. I remember thinking, is there like...a ghetto in hell and a better suburb?? But then, in the end, hell is cast into the lake of fire, with all its contents, so...is there also a ghetto and a nicer suburb in the lake of fire???

Then I began to suspect that, for humans, there is no living eternally AT ALL apart from Gods Spirit. Satan appears to somehow have eternity and has existed a long, long time, which I can’t explain, but men don’t live forever apart from being given Gods Spirit. So I thought, well then, the lake of fire in the end MUST, at least for humans, be annihilation, total destruction. And it was at that point I thought, okay, so while there would be wailing and great grief at coming to life again only to be cast there and annihilated, there would be the mercy of it being over finally. So I took great comfort in that sort of the same way animals and people in great agony eventually die and are out of their pain and I feel relief for them that their physical suffering is over.

But then I read about the outer darkness, which even the demons begged to not be cast into. They begged to be cast into animals rather than there. (I’m certain one of them has been cast into my cat as he is always trying to kill me on the stairs! That was a joke.) I cannot find anywhere that it says the outer darkness is cast into the lake of fire in the end. It seems to REALLY be forever torment.

So then I thought, oh my gosh, there is a fate WORSE than the second death, because there is not the mercy of it finally ending for good...

So it made sense then to say it would be more tolerable for Sodom on that day than for some other men.

Anyway, that’s where I am, but I’m still missing something...I still don’t understand how someone would live forever there, unless they had been given eternal life with Gods Spirit...

im kind of hoping I will find something else about the outer darkness that it will only last through the millennium and then will be over but I haven’t found anything yet that gives me that relief.
 
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