This fighting needs to stop. Arguing between brothers and sisters in Christ is a terrible thing and needs to end.
Hell Is God's Mercy
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Hey Aspen. I liked all the pictures you put together of God being a 'blazing fire'....nice imagery!. But I still think that hell is a punishment, for the very reason that the bible tells us so.
I don't like thinking about that punishment, but the fact is, people choose it. When they deny God, they are choosing the alternative, whether they realise it or not. And when they make this choice they do so on their own, not under the duress of God's holy fire.
And I also tend to think, that despite what punishment they are undergoing once in hell, that the very knowledge of the truth that slipped through their fingers...a truth so wondrous and freeing that they did have full access to - I believe that knowing this would also be a torment, not a mercy.
It's not easy to imagine that people we know and love may end up here; but in the end I put my trust fully in God, as should all Christians, even if it is something we don't or can't fully understand!
Hey Selene! I just want to comment on some of your posts. Please don't take this as an attack in any way....as I've said to Aspen, I don't necessarily agree with a lot of Catholic teachings, but I do believe that many Catholics are true Christians, and as such we can discuss our differences with love.
Just a thought here. Sure the Mormons might follow their book to the letter of the law, but it's still totally and completely wrong. They're going to, sadly, follow their book into hell.
Sure Protestants believe in a purging of sins. We call him Jesus!! The only way we can get into heaven is by being righteous, and as no one is, the only hope we have is Christ. I know you know this, but perhaps you haven't looked at it this way before! When Jesus covered our sins with His blood, He made us righteous in God's eyes.....no need for 'purgatory' any more - we are seen in light of Jesus' deeds, not our own!
Here I'd have to say that I find it hard to believe because the Bible just doesn't say so! I would think if something so amazing as the mother of Christ was to be taken to heaven in such a way, then someone might have mentioned it!!
So, respectfully, building a doctrine around the simple fact that 'well, the Bible didn't say it didn't happen', well, it lacks a sturdiness that I believe real doctrine should be built on. After all....the Bible doesn't say a lot of things...it doesn't say we can't eat our lawnmowers! :lol:
Anyway, that's just my thoughts!
Just a thought here. Sure the Mormons might follow their book to the letter of the law, but it's still totally and completely wrong. They're going to, sadly, follow their book into hell.
Sure Protestants believe in a purging of sins. We call him Jesus!! The only way we can get into heaven is by being righteous, and as no one is, the only hope we have is Christ. I know you know this, but perhaps you haven't looked at it this way before! When Jesus covered our sins with His blood, He made us righteous in God's eyes.....no need for 'purgatory' any more - we are seen in light of Jesus' deeds, not our own!
Here I'd have to say that I find it hard to believe because the Bible just doesn't say so! I would think if something so amazing as the mother of Christ was to be taken to heaven in such a way, then someone might have mentioned it!!
So, respectfully, building a doctrine around the simple fact that 'well, the Bible didn't say it didn't happen', well, it lacks a sturdiness that I believe real doctrine should be built on. After all....the Bible doesn't say a lot of things...it doesn't say we can't eat our lawnmowers! :lol:
Anyway, that's just my thoughts!
Selene
New Member
Hello Rach,
I respect all beliefs and I value "freedom of religion." A person has a right to believe in whatever they want to believe. This is also in accordance to the teachings in our Catechisms (CCC #1907). I have never had Mormons visit me. I get more Jehovah Witnesses visiting me. Of course, I do not believe in many of their doctrines, but I still respect their beliefs. I can have a true dialogue with a person of another religion, and it does not come to "you are wrong, and I am right" sort of thing. We can discuss our beliefs without having to resort to those types of childish arguments. Unfortunately, that is the kind of argument I get with some posters here.
I agree with you here. Our God is a consuming fire (Deuteronomy 4:24). Fire is used to purged all sins as the soul enters Heaven. For many Protestants, they believe that a saved soul who has sins will be purged by God's loving flames as the soul draws closer and closer to their heavenly home. For Catholics, it is the same thing. Purgatory means a "purging of sins." It is a place where the fires of God's love burns away any sins the soul has before they enter Heaven for the Bible does say that no sin can enter Heaven (Revelations 21:27). The Bible clearly says that nothing unclean can enter Heaven. People who died saved by grace are still sinners; therefore, their sins must be cleansed before entering Heaven. The purging of sins is the final stage before entering Heaven and the Bible speaks of a cleansing fire:
1 Corinthians 3:15 If any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.
Zacharias 13:9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined: and I will try them as gold is tried. They shall call on my name, and I will hear them. I will say: Thou art my people: and they shall say: The Lord is my God.
The Bible speaks of a place where souls go to that is clearly NOT Heaven nor Hell. For example, Lazarus went to Abraham's bosom (Luke 16:19-31). Abraham's bosom is not Heaven. The good thief also did not go to Heaven because Jesus did not ascend into Heaven until later. When Jesus said to the good thief "Today, you will be with me in Paradise," Jesus was not referring to Heaven. When Jesus died, His soul went to the spirits in prison (1 Peter 3:19, 4:6). Therefore, the good thief followed Jesus to that same place, which He called Paradise, but which the Hebrews called "Sheol." This place where these "spirits in prison" are held is clearly NOT God's kingdom.
My sister, someone did mention it, but it was not recorded in the Bible. Just as St. John says, not everything is written down in the Bible (John 21:25). The Assumption of Mary was passed down through the Church. The earliest known literary reference to the Assumption (or Dormition as it is called in the East) of Mary is found in the Greek work De Obitu S. Dominae, bearing the name of St. John, which belongs however to the fourth or fifth century. St. John says that not everything is written down in the Bible. For example, the Bible never said that the Apostle Peter died in Rome and the Apostle Thomas died in India. But we know that Peter died in Rome and Thomas died in India because this was information passed down through the Church and there are historical records showing that they died in those places. Not everything is written down in the Bible, but many things were passed down orally by the Apostles until someone writes it down.
2 Thessalonians 2:14 Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle.
What St. Paul speaks here are not the traditions of men, but the Apostolic traditions that were orally passed down by the Apostles themselves. Many years later, someone wrote these apostolic traditions down, which are now found in our Catechisms.
In Christ,
Selene
You know, I very much agree that as Christians we have a responsibility to behave in a loving manner to everyone. But sometimes it IS the more loving action to tell people they are wrong. We can smile and be very politically correct; not wanting to make others uncomfortable. But if we do this, if we give them the impression that their way to God, be it different to ours, is still a path to God, aren't we in a way hastening their journey to hell? Because it comes down to this; if we truly believe everything written in the Bible as God's word, we believe this: Jesus said He is the ONLY way to the Father....NO ONE comes to Him, but through Jesus. So I'm afraid that I'm going to have to stand firm on what I believe, and whether it may be regarded childish or not, say that many, many other 'religions' are not just wrong, but doctrines of satan.
Now, I'm not saying that you dismiss this, I can see by your posts that you love Christ, but sister, too often our churches are pulled away from their true calling by people who are more concerned with 'staying the peace' then the spreading of the wonderful gospel!
I'm afraid I disagree with you here. You say that you agree with me about Jesus taking our sins, but then you take a whole paragraph to talk of the 'burning off' of sins, but Jesus in no where in it! I can't help but feel that when it takes something else to 'get rid of left over sins' that we are then saying Jesus' sacrifice wasn't enough.
[10] For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. [11] So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.
[12] Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, to make you obey its passions. [13] Do not present your members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments for righteousness. [14] For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.
(Romans 6:10-14 ESV)
Jesus' death was enough for those of us who believe, to be seen as righteous before God!! Purgatory should only be needed if His sacrifice didn't cover us, but the Bible tells us this isn't so!
7] “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
and whose sins are covered;
[8] blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.”
(Romans 4:7-8 ESV)
This may very well be true, and if so it would be wonderful and inspiring, but we should only build doctrine on what IS stated in scripture. Knowing that Peter died in Rome, crucified upside down is interesting; it tells us how very much he held to the truth, right up to the end...but we do not build our beliefs upon it.
Now, I'm not really here to declare war on the Catholic Church or your beliefs, but I do think we, as Christians, should urge each other to really think about what we have been brought up to believe via our churches. Does it follow what the Bible truly says? Does it all honor and glory Jesus and put Him, and the following of Him, before anything and everyone else?
Because those are the things that truly matter!
Selene
New Member
Hello Rach,
My priest is from Ecuador and can speak about 7 different languages. Japanese is one of the languages that he can speak fluently. A few years ago, he invited 5 Japanese performers to perform cultural dances and songs after Mass. Many people stayed to watch the Japanese peformance. After the performance, we held a luncheon for the Japanese. These Japanese performers are not Christians. They believed in Buddhism or Shintoism. We welcomed them and treated them as our guests with great hospitality. As a result, two of those Japanese performers went to my priest and told him that they wanted to convert to Christianity. What suddenly changed them? The tolerance and love that we showed them impressed them that they wanted to be part of our community. They saw the love that we had for one another and the love and hospitality that we showed them. And no one told them that Buddhism and Shintoism was wrong and Christianity is right. Those two Japanese converts, will in turn, convert others in Japan.
The Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches us to respect the beliefs of others despite that we don't agree with those beliefs. We convert more people when we live our faith. As Christians, we are the light of the world, and we are called to shine our light so that others may give praise to the God we worship (Matthew 5:14-16).
My sister, Jesus is there. Jesus is God and God is a consuming fire.
Hebrews 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.
Deuteronomy 4:24 Because the Lord thy God is a consuming fire, a jealous God
Jesus' death does not mean that we stop being sinners. We are still sinners and we still continue to sin. Thus, it is necessary to always confess our sins and repent from these sins (James 5:16). His sacrifice on the cross brought us redemption so that we can now enter Heaven. Before Christ died on the cross, the gates of Heaven was closed to mankind and no one could enter it (see John 3:13). After Christ's death and resurrection, the gates of Heaven were opened and mankind can now enter Heaven (Ephesians 4:8-9).
Christ died on the cross and forgave our sins. But we still continue to sin. And because we still continue to sin, we need to repent and confess those sins so that we could be forgiven. Christ's death does not mean that we no longer need to confess our sins nor repent of our sins. We still need to repent and confess our sins just as the Bible says (See James 5:16). If a believer dies suddenly without getting the opportunity to confess his/her sins, does this mean that he/she is condemned to Hell? No, of course not. This is why Purgatory exists. It is God's mercy to us.
James 5:16 Confess therefore your sins one to another: and pray one for another, that you may be saved.....
Furthermore, the Bible shows that there is a place other than Heaven or Hell. As I said before, Abraham's bosom is not Heaven, but it is also not Hell. The "spirits in prison" (1 Peter 3:19) is not Heaven, but it is also not Hell. After Jesus died, Jesus went to these "spirits in prison" and preached the Gospel to them. He later led these spirits in prison to Heaven as He ascended (Ephesians 4:8-9).
My sister, there is nothing in the Bible that says that we must build our doctrine on what IS ONLY in Scripture. In fact, this goes against what is taught in the Bible because St. Paul says the following:
1 Thessalonians 2:14 Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle.
The Catholic Church have always followed Sacred Scripture and the Apostolic Traditions that was orally handed down to us. Even St. John pointed out that Jesus did many things, but not all of them were written down (John 21:25). Therefore, we hold fast to the traditions that we learned from the Apostles, whether by word or by epistle (Scripture) as St. Paul says. When St. John wrote those words in his Gospel, he is not saying that those things that Jesus did was not important. He is saying that the Bible is limited because not everything that Jesus did was written down. So, those historical documents and Church writings by the Early Christian Fathers are important. They verify what has been orally handed down to us by the Apostles.
In Christ,
Selene
Selene
New Member
Oops! My bad! That should be written as 2 Thessalonians 2:15.
2 Thessalonians 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned whether by word, or by our epistle.
Hey Selene! Please do not think that I am saying that we inform people, in a rude and rebuffing way, that they're beliefs are wrong. This is not loving. If they talk about their or our faith, this is when we tell them about Jesus, about the Bible and how we believe that Christianity is the only way to God. And should they choose to remain in their faith we do not reject them for it; we still love them, and pray that their hearts may be changed. My point here is that as Christians we cannot take the "Oprah" view, that everyone has their own way to "god", and that no matter how they get there, we'll all be together in paradise one day. That is such a sad and even evil teaching! We cannot hate people for following false religions, but we must be sad for them, and we mustn't reinforce their beliefs. We cannot pat them on the head and tell them that their beliefs are just as good as ours. We must not placate them just to keep the peace....how can this be loving when it ultimately points them at hell?
Again I disagree. But as I really don't see this as a salvation issue, I suppose we can happily wait to see who was right!!
I don't dismiss needed to confess our sins, I believe its an important part of our sanctification process. I think keeping a short account is one of the best ways to move forward - that is, confessing a sin as soon as you are convicted of it, or become aware of it. I know you do your confessing to your Priests, but I believe that Jesus is the high Priest, that He is with me everywhere, and as I go through my day, I speak to Him and confess to Him.
And to be honest, I believe the Bible tells us that when we die, we ARE with Jesus. No waiting, no 'time out':
[8] Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.
(2 Corinthians 5:8 ESV)
23 I am hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better. (Phil 1:23 ESV)
Think about it!
Rom 6:10 - [10] For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God.
Once and for all! Sure we're still sinners, we will be until we leave this world! But if there was some other requisite to save our souls, then why would Jesus have even needed to die?? Wouldn't that suddenly become something we can work on; something for us to boast in? No! It's ALL Jesus, ALL grace, ALL gift and ALL free....and ALL coming from His death on the cross!
Confession of sins is for our benefit, so we can learn and grow, for our day by day battle to put sin to death. But once Jesus is our Lord and Savior, His blood covers us! Forever! What does it say about His sacrifice if after death takes us, we still have to 'work some off'?
No, I truly believe that when I die I will be seeing my Savior face to face!
I really think that making doctrine out of anything but God's word is walking on shaky ground. Do I recognize the benefit of written accounts and traditions from the early church fathers? Yes, I really do, but as we know history can be distorted and twisted by bias. That is why it is SO important to back everything we believe with the inspired word of God.
The verse you quoted, I read it like this in my ESV Bible (a translation I very much trust):
[15] So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter.
(2 Thessalonians 2:15 ESV)
Paul is not telling them to follow any Tradition that was around in their day. He was telling them to follow the things HE had told them, either by word or a letter he had written them. As I've noticed you've said before...the Bible hadn't been complied in those days....it was still being written! So what Paul is telling them, is what we now have within scripture. It would be erroneous to take this verse and claim that any tradition could be followed...as I'm sure you know there are so many out there that just aren't Biblical. That is why we stick to scripture, that exactly what Paul tells us to do!
Selene
New Member
Hello Rach,
I never assumed that at all. If a Buddhist wishes to get into a discussion with me about our faiths, we can discuss it but I never tell him that he is going to Hell if he remains to be a Buddhist. Of course, I will pray for him, but I will not force him into Christianity. I will certainly not tell him that he's going to Hell because he's a Buddhist because only God can make that judgement. I can not judge who goes to Hell.
Actually, a Catholic can confess their sins directly to God or to a priest. The Bible teaches both ways. It is good to confess sins to God and it is good to confess sins to a priest. It really does not matter to us because Christ allowed the Apostles to forgive sins and even to retain sins ( John 20:23). And whatever Christ allowed is okay by me.
Confession and repentance of sins is necessary to be saved. The Bible says that in order for our sins to be forgiven and to cleanse us from all iniquity, we must confess our sins. The Bible also encourage us to confess our sins in order to be saved. That is what the Bible says:
1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all iniquity;
James 5:16 Confess therefore your sins one to another: and pray one for another, that you may be saved.
Jesus' death on the cross already opened up the gates of Heaven so that we can enter His kingdom. Before, the gates of Heaven was closed to us. The gates of Heaven have been opened up by Christ so that we can enter. Now, we must do our part. As St. Peter said to the crowd, "repent and be baptize so that we can receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." For Catholics, we believe that repentence is necessary for our salvation. After all, how can one receive grace if one is not repentent of their sins? As St. Peter said, if we want to receive this grace, then we must repent and confess our sins so that we can be forgiven.
My sister, St. Paul mentioned "tradition" in this verse. There were Apostolic traditions that was given to the Church. These traditions were handed down orally until someone wrote it down. St. John said that Jesus did many things that were not written in the Bible. One of the things that Jesus did that was not written down was bringing His mother into Heaven body and soul. This was never written down in the Bible, but it is found in the Apostolic Tradition that was passed down to the Church. The history of our salvation does not end in the Bible nor in the deaths of the Apostles. Our history of salvation continues on in all of us. The history of salvation continues on with you and even with me for we are one body of Christ.
In Christ,
Selene
Hey Selene! I'm enjoying our conversation! Hope you are too. I find that a good debate can help you really consolidate what you think! Anyway, I hope I'm not offending you by my disagreeing with you!
Oh! I would never tell someone straight out that they're going to hell...how rude! But if the opportunity was there, I feel strongly that I must tell them that I believe that Jesus is the ONLY way. Of course then the loving thing would be to show them why I think this, so they feel I have a reason beyond 'religious superiority'.
And of course we aren't the Judge...only God is that, but He also tells us that any who don't believe in Christ will not get into heaven. So the logical conclusion is there, isn't it?
Um, yeah, I don't really believe that as people, we have the ability or authority to forgive sins....that's kind of the same as claiming we have the authority to judge. The commentary in my bible explains this passage really well, I think, so i'll post it as my reply to this.
"The expressions 'they are forgiven' and 'it is withheld' both represent perfect-tense verbs in Greek and could also be translated, “they have been forgiven” and “it has been withheld,” since the perfect gives the sense of completed past action with continuing results in the present. The idea is not that individual Christians or churches have authority on their own to forgive or not forgive people, but rather that as the church proclaims the gospel message of forgiveness of sins in the power of the Holy Spirit (see v. 22), it proclaims that those who believe in Jesus have their sins forgiven, and that those who do not believe in him do not have their sins forgiven—which simply reflects what God in heaven has already done."
I believe that repentance is a sign of true faith. It's like the good tree producing good fruit. Too many say 'yeah, that sounds good, I'm a Christian', and then live a life that is completely their own. There is no transformation, no repentance, no putting sin to death daily, no loving of others, no growing in Christ, no sanctification.
So in this way I agree that repentance is necessary for salvation...any true Christian WILL repent...spend their life repenting. But as for the price that bought our salvation...that is, and only will be the blood of Christ. He was the penal substitution atonement, the only thing that could appease Gods righteous wrath. Nothing we could ever do, including repenting, will be enough to do that on our own. Think of the Old covenant. The Jews spent much of their lives repenting, and sacrificing animals in that repentance. It was not enough however, and Jesus came to provide the only thing that will give us salvation; grace.
It's true that Jesus probably did and said more that what is actually within scripture. Can you picture our Savior traveling with 12 other men, full time! The joking and friendship that must have been between them?! And yet while it would be so warming to know about all of that, it wasn't necessary for us to hear, the Bible tells us all we need to know for living Christian lives. And truly, I believe if something so wondrous as Mary being taken up to heaven had happened, it would have been mentioned. Perhaps it did happen, but again, if not mentioned in scripture, it's not necessary for us to incorporate into our doctrines.
Please understand that I'm not disrespecting Mary. She must have truly been an inspiring woman, a Godly woman. But still, she was just a woman, and I must confess to being a little uneasy at how the Catholic Church seems to revere her so much...almost too much I hesitate to say. I sometimes worry that the Catholic Church has so many saints and such, people they raise above mere human sinfulness, that it just might (in some cases) interfere with God telling us to have no other gods. Again, not an attack, just an opinion coupled with a lack of understanding of your beliefs.
Oh! I would never tell someone straight out that they're going to hell...how rude! But if the opportunity was there, I feel strongly that I must tell them that I believe that Jesus is the ONLY way. Of course then the loving thing would be to show them why I think this, so they feel I have a reason beyond 'religious superiority'.
And of course we aren't the Judge...only God is that, but He also tells us that any who don't believe in Christ will not get into heaven. So the logical conclusion is there, isn't it?
Um, yeah, I don't really believe that as people, we have the ability or authority to forgive sins....that's kind of the same as claiming we have the authority to judge. The commentary in my bible explains this passage really well, I think, so i'll post it as my reply to this.
"The expressions 'they are forgiven' and 'it is withheld' both represent perfect-tense verbs in Greek and could also be translated, “they have been forgiven” and “it has been withheld,” since the perfect gives the sense of completed past action with continuing results in the present. The idea is not that individual Christians or churches have authority on their own to forgive or not forgive people, but rather that as the church proclaims the gospel message of forgiveness of sins in the power of the Holy Spirit (see v. 22), it proclaims that those who believe in Jesus have their sins forgiven, and that those who do not believe in him do not have their sins forgiven—which simply reflects what God in heaven has already done."
I believe that repentance is a sign of true faith. It's like the good tree producing good fruit. Too many say 'yeah, that sounds good, I'm a Christian', and then live a life that is completely their own. There is no transformation, no repentance, no putting sin to death daily, no loving of others, no growing in Christ, no sanctification.
So in this way I agree that repentance is necessary for salvation...any true Christian WILL repent...spend their life repenting. But as for the price that bought our salvation...that is, and only will be the blood of Christ. He was the penal substitution atonement, the only thing that could appease Gods righteous wrath. Nothing we could ever do, including repenting, will be enough to do that on our own. Think of the Old covenant. The Jews spent much of their lives repenting, and sacrificing animals in that repentance. It was not enough however, and Jesus came to provide the only thing that will give us salvation; grace.
It's true that Jesus probably did and said more that what is actually within scripture. Can you picture our Savior traveling with 12 other men, full time! The joking and friendship that must have been between them?! And yet while it would be so warming to know about all of that, it wasn't necessary for us to hear, the Bible tells us all we need to know for living Christian lives. And truly, I believe if something so wondrous as Mary being taken up to heaven had happened, it would have been mentioned. Perhaps it did happen, but again, if not mentioned in scripture, it's not necessary for us to incorporate into our doctrines.
Please understand that I'm not disrespecting Mary. She must have truly been an inspiring woman, a Godly woman. But still, she was just a woman, and I must confess to being a little uneasy at how the Catholic Church seems to revere her so much...almost too much I hesitate to say. I sometimes worry that the Catholic Church has so many saints and such, people they raise above mere human sinfulness, that it just might (in some cases) interfere with God telling us to have no other gods. Again, not an attack, just an opinion coupled with a lack of understanding of your beliefs.
Aspen
I've only glossed over the thread but do you think it would be fare to say that Hell is God's mercy on the people who don#'t ahve to go there. In so much as it is the assurity that the evil doers and non-believers will get their commuppance and the believers will be avenged. In toher words; justice will eventually be meeted out.
This is how I gather Hell could be in any way a mercy as at first glance Hell seems anything but merciful.
I'm not speaking from a point of any doctrine but this is certainly a recurrent theme in scripture, aprticularly in revelations.
I've only glossed over the thread but do you think it would be fare to say that Hell is God's mercy on the people who don#'t ahve to go there. In so much as it is the assurity that the evil doers and non-believers will get their commuppance and the believers will be avenged. In toher words; justice will eventually be meeted out.
This is how I gather Hell could be in any way a mercy as at first glance Hell seems anything but merciful.
I'm not speaking from a point of any doctrine but this is certainly a recurrent theme in scripture, aprticularly in revelations.
Well, we will only know when we all face God. I tend to believe that Hell is a mercy for sinners who are damned because it allows them to exist away from a Holy God, which I would imagine to be very painful for those with unredeemed hearts and minds.
As far as being a mercy for the saved - I have a really hard time with that for several reasons
1. People who have wronged me deeply happen to be Christian so there is no justice for me in this sense
2. Millions of people who have wronged God haven't hurt a soul so there is no justice for the saved, only for God.
3. We are called to forgive our enemies as God forgives us - that means 70 times 7. So there is no satisfaction in knowing about the eternal torture of a personal enemy you have forgiven.
I think seeing sin as a terminal illness, that cannot be treated without the patient's consent is closer to reality. I think it will be a sad day for Heaven and Earth when the damned choose Hell as the least worse option.
What sort of frightens me is when Christians appear militant about the idea that Hell is righteous judgment for the blatantly smug and arrogant enemies of God because it looks like they cannot wait for that day! Burn up those sinners - especially the ones that spurred their witness with their arrogance! I fail to see the Christian charity in wanting people to be tortured forever - it also seems a punishment 70 x 7 greater than the crime.
"which I would imagine to be very painful for those with unredeemed hearts and minds."
That's the problem. You imagine it. The Bible doesn't say it.
That's the problem. You imagine it. The Bible doesn't say it.
You know, I predicted that a literalist would jump on my use of the word "imagine" and I considered repeating all the verses I have already posted about moses having to cover his face when he came down the mountain to address the people and Isaiah and the burning coal and how evil cannot exist in Heaven and then I said "screw it".
The early Church argued from reason, just like Paul and used hyperbole all the time, just like Jesus.
I made the right choice.
Purgatory is definately a mercy as without it those who die with sins on them would have to got straight to hell because they can't go to Heaven with them on thenm.
Very very very few people will make it to Heaven without a stay in Purgatory which might last for hundreds of thosuands of years and though it is a mercy, Purgatory is still not a fun place to be. It's jsut like Hell except you get out one day.
Very very very few people will make it to Heaven without a stay in Purgatory which might last for hundreds of thosuands of years and though it is a mercy, Purgatory is still not a fun place to be. It's jsut like Hell except you get out one day.
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Choir Loft
It doesn't.
The escatology of Purgatory comes from two places. Principally it comes from the books and interpretations of the books of the aprocrypha. These are the additional books of the Roman Catholic Bible, which by the way were never included in the canon of scripture even for Catholics. They just sort of got included by default and being present they stayed there. Theology thus developed to interpret the meaning.
Secondly, the notion was expanded upon in the popular work of Dante Alighieri's DIVINE COMEDY where he presents a fictional picture of hell (Inferno), purgatory (Purgatorio) and heaven (Paradiso). It should be noted here that Dante's work is heavily laced with references to secular personalities and events of the day. It is presented as fiction with a heavy religious overtone. To my way of thinking it was the supermarket novel of its day. Although it is not presented as a theological treatise nor did Dante ever claim to be a teacher it is nonetheless accepted as some sort of legitimate spiritual interpretation.
The theology of purgatory was mostly used to justify the collection of money to 'buy favors' of God or bribe God as well as to explain holes in logic concerning the after life. For example, what happens to a baby if it dies before its been baptised? The answer is that it goes to purgatory for a spiritual cleansing or to be made ready for eternity. One's family could contribute a few coins to the priest to have prayers said on behalf of the departed thus lessening their time in purgatory before release to heaven/paradise. As strange as this may sound to protestants it should be noted that some forms of millenialism have the same theme in that the saints are groomed for eternity during the millenial reign of Christ upon the earth. It's the same story but with a slightly different twist.
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Choir Loft
And he that doth not take his cross and follow after me, is not worthy of me.
He that findeth his life shall lose it; and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.
Mat 10:38-39
Somewhere along the way in the modern era it became fashionable to say that right is wrong and that evil is good. Such is the case with the mistaken statement that hell is a mercy.
The spiritual reality is that hell is a place or a state wherein everything the person once had is lost. Damnation as it was originally defined means to suffer loss, in this case severe, complete and total loss.
The loss in hell is so great that not only is the presence of God lost, but the self as well. Defined as one's identity, the self is that basic essence or core of what we are.
Jesus, our ultimate authority on the matter, said that one could lose his life. Other translations use the word 'self' instead of life.
Many today justly consider Alzheimer's disease to be one of the most horriffic ways to end one's earthly existance. One's memory and mental processes are gradually eroded to the point where the sufferer loses his notion of self as well as the ability to operate his own body. This is perhaps the closest earthly parallel to the hellish loss of self in eternity. Neither the disease nor the eternal prospect can in any way be interpreted as a mercy. If there is an eternal hope for a Christian who suffers from the earthly disease it is that his 'self' will be completely restored when he meets his maker.
Those who reject God in life do so because they wish to pursue their sinful ways. They live in the false darkness and delusion that God does not see what they do and that God will not act to punish them or to put an end to their rebellion. The Bible says that all men desire to act according to their own desire. This applies to American women as well despite the tendency in recent years to place themselves on a higher moral level than men.
The great mercy of salvation is the human awareness of God's righteousness, God's will in their life, God's forgiveness, and God's working desire to help the human escape the ravages of sin and to eliminate the nature of rebellion against Him. If a man gives his life to Jesus, the Lord gives it right back to him again with the added bonus of Jesus who lives it with him.
Nothing could be further from the truth, especially for those who fear hell fire themselves. We do not want it for ourselves and fear it for others.
THE REAL issue here ISN'T Christians wishing punishment upon sinners, it is that sinners want to justify BY ANY MEANS their continued participation in sin and rebellion against God.
Where sin flourishes injustice and lies will multiply against the gospel and those who preach it.
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