Proof that Jesus is God

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ReChoired

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2nd, Trinitarians
Irrelevant to our discussion.

claim John 1:1 refers back to Genesis.
John himself, under inspiration of the Holy Ghost/Spirit, in context shows us that it (John 1 refers to Genesis 1) does, and that is what he refers to, using the words "In the beginning" (John 1:1a,2; Genesis 1:1a; see also John's parallel in 1 John 1:1a), "made" (x3) (John 1:2; Genesis 1:7), "light" (John 1:4,7,8,9; Genesis 1:3), "darkness" (John 1:5; Genesis 1:2,4,5), "the world was made" (John 1:10; "heaven and earth" Genesis 1:1,2, etc), "man" (John 1:6,9; Genesis 1:26,27,28).

A more reasonable interpretation is that all 4 Gospels begin at the beginning of Jesus ministry.
But you are in error here also, for Luke's Gospel doesn't begin with Jesus ministry but rather begins with the birth of John the Baptist and that scenario. Neither does Matthew, as it begins with the Genealogy and birth (not ministry) of Jesus. Mark's record actually states "The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;", and does not merely say "In the beginning", as John does in John 1 and 1 John 1. John is not referring back to the beginning of Jesus ministry, but back to Creation itself in context. Mark and John are starting in two different places, and the words are plain that this is so. One cannot truly mistake Mark's words for John's words, unless they are willingly ignorant, or simply uncaring.

This interpretation of the Prologue is supported by the summary statement for John’s entire Gospel at John 1:18.
Here is John 1:18

Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Contextually, no man on earth has seen the Father on earth. They (on earth) have seen the Son (θεος ην ο λογος) on earth, who declares "the Father" (τον θεον, John 1:1b) in Heaven above, thus "God" (the Person/Being of the Son on earth) declares "God" (the Person/Being of the Father in Heaven). John clarifies this in the same Gospel:

Joh_6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

There is more to this (a deeper meaning other than the obvious), but that should suffice for now.

The much-loved Son is beside the Father. No man has ever seen God. But Christ has made God known to us.
Yes, but the context indicates that "The much-loved Son [θεος ην ο λογος] is beside the Father [τον θεον]. No man has ever seen God [τον θεον, on earth]. But Christ [θεος ην ο λογος, on earth, the visible] has made God [τον θεον, in Heaven, the invisible] known to us.

The text is not saying that no man as never seen any "God". It is only referring to no man on earth seeing the Father on earth. Men have seen "God" standing on the earth, just as Abraham, Moses, etc:

Gen 18:1 And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;

Gen 18:22 And the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before the LORD.
Gen 18:23 And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?

Gen 18:33 And the LORD went his way, as soon as he had left communing with Abraham: and Abraham returned unto his place.

Notice the Two "LORD's" (One in Heaven, and the other One standing on the earth; the third Person/Being is there also under the symbol of Fire, but that is another study):

Gen 19:24 Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;

Exo 3:4 And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I.

Exo 3:6 Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.

Exo 3:8 And I am come down to deliver them out of the hand of the Egyptians, and to bring them up out of that land unto a good land and a large, unto a land flowing with milk and honey; unto the place of the Canaanites, and the Hittites, and the Amorites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites.

Exo 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

But what will the wicked and disbelieving say?

Exo 4:1 And Moses answered and said, But, behold, they will not believe me, nor hearken unto my voice: for they will say, The LORD hath not appeared unto thee.
 

ReChoired

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How is your doctrine different from trinitarianism?
To begin with, "trinitarianism" (like its twin, "unitarianism") teaches a 'singularity':

Roman Catholic “trinity”, which is nothing of the sort, but a counterfeit, in effect a singularity:

Online Roman Catholic Library; Credo of the People of God; Promulgated by Pope Paul VI on June 30, 1968 - CATHOLIC LIBRARY: The Credo of the People of God (1968)

“We believe then in the Father who eternally begets the Son, in the Son, the Word of God, who is eternally begotten; in the Holy Spirit, the uncreated Person who proceeds from the Father and the Son as their eternal love. Thus in the Three Divine Persons, coaeternae sibi et coaequales,[8] the life and beatitude of God perfectly one superabound and are consummated in the supreme excellence and glory proper to uncreated being, and always "there should be venerated unity in the Trinity and Trinity in the unity."[9]”

Online Roman Catholic Encyclopedia, Holy Spirit; sections throughout - CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Holy Ghost

“... that the Paraclete "is not to be considered as unconnected with the Father and the Son, for He is with Them one in substance and divinity"...

... Proceeding both from the Father and the Son, the Holy Ghost, nevertheless, proceeds from Them as from a single principle. ... Hence it follows, indeed, that the Holy Ghost proceeds from the two other Persons, not in so far as They are distinct, but inasmuch as Their Divine perfection is numerically one. Besides, such is the explicit teaching of ecclesiastical tradition, which is concisely put by St. Augustine (On the Holy Trinity V.14): "As the Father and the Son are only one God and, relatively to the creature, only one Creator and one Lord, so, relatively to the Holy Ghost, They are only one principle." This doctrine was definded in the following words by the Second Ecumenical Council of Lyons [Denzinger, "Enchiridion" (1908), n. 460]: "We confess that the Holy Ghost proceeds eternally from the Father and the Son, not as from two principles, but as from one principle, not by two spirations, but by one single spiration." The teaching was again laid down by the Council of Florence (ibid., n. 691), and by Eugene IV in his Bull "Cantate Domino" (ibid., n. 703 sq.). ...

..."the Holy Ghost comes from the Father and from the Son not made, not created, not generated, but proceeding" ...”

The Council of Florence (A.D. 1438-1445) From Cantate Domino — Papal Bull of Pope Eugene IV by Pope Eugene IV - The Council of Florence (A.D. 1438-1445) From Cantate Domino — Papal Bull of Pope Eugene IV

The sacrosanct Roman Church, founded by the voice of our Lord and Savior, firmly believes, professes, and preaches one true God omnipotent, unchangeable, and eternal, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost; one in essence, three in persons; Father unborn, Son born of the Father, Holy Spirit proceeding from Father and Son; that the Father is not Son or Holy Spirit, that Son is not Father or Holy Spirit; that Holy Spirit is not Father or Son; but Father alone is Father, Son alone is Son, Holy Spirit alone is Holy Spirit. The Father alone begot the Son of His own substance; the Son alone was begotten of the Father alone; the Holy Spirit alone proceeds at the same time from the Father and Son.

These three persons are one God, and not three gods, because the three have one substance, one essence, one nature, one divinity, one immensity, one eternity, where no opposition of relationship interferes.

“Because of this unity the Father is entire in the Son, entire in the Holy Spirit; the Son is entire in the Father, entire in the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit is entire in the Father, entire in the Son. No one either excels another in eternity, or exceeds in magnitude, or is superior in power. For the fact that the Son is of the Father is eternal and without beginning; and that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son is eternal and without beginning.” Whatever the Father is or has, He does not have from another, but from Himself; and He is the principle without principle. Whatever the Son is or has, He has from the Father, and is the principle from a principle. Whatever the Holy Spirit is or has, He has simultaneously from the Father and the Son. But the Father and the Son are not two principles of the Holy Spirit, but one principle, just as the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit are not three principles of the creature, but one principle. ...”

Therein is the error, among other things. Romanism's "trinity" also denies the body/form of the Father, though scripture teaches that the Father has body/form (see below). It also says that the Holy Spirit is of the same ("one in") "substance", but scripture never says this. The nature of the Holy Ghost is a mystery never revealed (and I do not refer to His Personhood or Being).

The Father's form:

The Father is not a perfume, not an aethereal essence pervading the universe.

Mat_6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

Mat_16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Luk_11:2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.

He, the Father, is a "Person", even His person (Job 13:8; Hebrews 1:3), of which Jesus (the Son) is the "express image" of.

As for the rest, see "His person" (Job 13:8); "form of God" (Philippians 2:6), "shape" (John 5:37), "image" (Genesis 1:26,27; Hebrews 1:3), "likeness" (Genesis 1:26,27), "being" (Acts 17:28), has a very real movable "Throne" on which He sits (Daniel 7:9-10; Revelation 4-5, &c), has "the hair of his head like the pure wool" (Daniel 7:9), "whose garment was white as snow" (Daniel 7:9), has a "right hand" (Revelation 5:1; Acts 7:55-56), able to be looked upon, "to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone" (Revelation 4:2), having His own "nature" (Galatians 4:8).

See also "back parts" (Exodus 33:23), and even a "divine nature" (2 Peter 1:4), see also "under his feet" (Exodus 24:20).

The angels are also called 'spirits' and "persons" ("fellows"; Hebrews 1:9), "young man" (Mark 16:5; Daniel 9:21; &c), and yet have real celestial (Heavenly) "bodies" with unfallen angelic "flesh" (1 Corinthians 15:35-58; Jude 1:7, Genesis 17-19, &c) an unfallen heavenly "nature" (Hebrews 2:16), where as we have bodies terrestrial (dust).

The Son is also a "person" (Hebrews 1:3; 2 Corinthians 2:10; Matthew 27:24; Deuteronomy 27:25; &c).

So is the Holy Ghost (John 14:16; &c)

Mankind are also called 'spirits' (1 Peter 3:19; Hebrews 12:23) and yet are real tangible beings, with bodies (made of dust).

Philippians 2:6; Daniel 3:25; Genesis 18:4, 19:2; Exodus 24:10-11; Psalms 18:9; John 5:37; Exodus 33:23,20,22; Daniel 7:9-10,13; Ezekiel 1:1,8,26-28; Acts 7:55-56; Psalms 24:1-10; John 20:17; 1 Peter 3:22; Matthew 18:10; Revelation 1:13-20, 2:1, 4:1-11, 5:1-14; Hebrews 1:13; Colossians 1:3-6; Numbers 12:8; Isaiah 45:23, 48:3; Revelation 3:16; Psalms 89:34; Psalms 104:33, 146:2; Acts 17:28; Genesis 1:26-27; Colossians 1:15; &c.
 

ReChoired

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How is your doctrine different from trinitarianism?
Do you see now the massive divide? ("trinitarianism", along with "unitarianism" is spiritualism, vaporizing Godhead)

"... PERSONALITY OF GOD

MAN was made in the image of God. "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness." "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him." Gen.i,26,27. See also chap.ix,6; 1Cor.xi,7. Those who deny the personality of God, say that "image" here does not mean physical form, but moral image, and they make this the grand starting point to prove the immortality of all men. The argument stands thus: First, man was made in God's moral image. Second, God is an immortal being. Third, therefore all men are immortal. But this mode of reasoning would also prove man omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent, and thus clothe mortal man with all the attributes of the deity. Let us try it: First, man was made in God's moral image. Second, God is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent. Third, therefore, man is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent. That which proves too much, proves nothing to the point, therefore the position that the image of God means his moral image, cannot be sustained. As proof that God is a person, read his own words to Moses: "And the Lord said, Behold there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock; and it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a cleft of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by. And I will take away mine hand and thou shalt see my [2] back parts; but my face shall not be seen." Ex.xxxiii,21-23. See also chap.xxiv,9-11. Here God tells Moses that he shall see his form. To say that God made it appear to Moses that he saw his form, when he has no form, is charging God with adding to falsehood a sort of juggling deception upon his servant Moses. {1861 JW, PERGO 1.1}

But the skeptic thinks he sees a contradiction between verse 11, which says that the Lord spake unto Moses face to face, and verse 20, which states that Moses could not see his face. But let Num.xii,5-8 remove the difficulty. "And the Lord came down in the pillar of the cloud, and stood in the door of the tabernacle, and called Aaron and Miriam, and they both came forth. And he said, Hear now my words. If there be a prophet among you, I, the Lord, will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream. My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house. With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently." {1861 JW, PERGO 2.1}

The great and dreadful God came down, wrapped in a cloud of glory. This cloud could be seen, but not the face which possesses more dazzling brightness than a thousand suns. Under these circumstances Moses was permitted to draw near and converse with God face to face, or mouth to mouth, even apparently. {1861 JW, PERGO 2.2}

Says the prophet Daniel, "I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hairs of his head like the pure wool; his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire." Chap.vii,9. "I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him, and [3] there was given him dominion and glory and a kingdom." Verses 13, 14. {1861 JW, PERGO 2.3}

Here is a sublime description of the action of two personages; viz, God the Father, and his Son Jesus Christ. Deny their personality, and there is not a distinct idea in these quotations from Daniel. In connection with this quotation read the apostle's declaration that the Son was in the express image of his Father's person. "God, who at sundry times, and in divers manners, spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person." Heb.i,1-3. {1861 JW, PERGO 3.1}

We here add the testimony of Christ. "And the Father himself which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape." John v,37. See also Phil.ii,6. To say that the Father has not a personal shape, seems the most pointed contradiction of plain scripture terms.

OBJECTION. - "God is a Spirit." John iv,24. {1861 JW, PERGO 3.2}

ANSWER. - Angels are also spirits [Ps.civ,4], yet those that visited Abram and Lot, lay down, ate, and took hold of Lot's hand. They were spirit beings. So is God a Spirit being. {1861 JW, PERGO 3.3}

OBJ. - God is everywhere. Proof. Ps.cxxxix,1-8. He is as much in every place as in any one place. {1861 JW, PERGO 3.4}

ANS. - 1. God is everywhere by virtue of his omniscience, as will be seen by the very words of David referred to above. Verses 1-6. "O Lord, thou hast searched me, and known me. Thou knowest my down-sitting and mine uprising; thou understandest my thought afar off. Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways. For there is not a [4] word in my tongue, but, lo, O Lord, thou knowest it altogether. Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thy hand upon me. Such knowledge is too wonderful for me. It is high; I cannot attain unto it." {1861 JW, PERGO 3.5}

2. God is everywhere by virtue of his Spirit, which is his representative, and is manifested wherever he pleases, as will be seen by the very words the objector claims, referred to above. Verses 7-10. "Whither shall I go from thy Spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence? If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there; if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there. If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea, even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me." {1861 JW, PERGO 4.1}

God is in heaven. This we are taught in the Lord's prayer. "Our Father which art in heaven." Matt.vi,9; Luke xi,2. But if God is as much in every place as he is in any one place, then heaven is also as much in every place as it is in any one place, and the idea of going to heaven is all a mistake. We are all in heaven; and the Lord's prayer, according to this foggy theology simply means, Our Father which art everywhere, hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth, as it is everywhere. {1861 JW, PERGO 4.2}

Again, Bible readers have believed that Enoch and Elijah were really taken up to God in heaven. But if God and heaven be as much in every place as in any one place, this is all a mistake. They were not translated. And all that is said about the chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and the attending whirlwind to take Elijah up into heaven, was a useless parade. They only evaporated, and a misty vapor passed through the entire universe. This is all of Enoch and Elijah that the mind can possibly grasp, admitting that God and heaven are [5] no more in any one place than in every place. But it is said of Elijah that he "went up by a whirlwind into heaven." 2Kings ii,11. And of Enoch it is said that he "walked with God, and was not, for God took him." Gen.v,24. {1861 JW, PERGO 4.3}

Jesus is said to be on the right hand of the Majesty on high." Heb.i,3. "So, then, after the Lord had spoken unto them he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God." Mark xvi,19. But if heaven be everywhere, and God everywhere, then Christ's ascension up to heaven, at the Father's right hand, simply means that he went everywhere! He was only taken up where the cloud hid him from the gaze of his disciples, and then evaporated and went everywhere! So that instead of the lovely Jesus, so beautifully described in both Testaments, we have only a sort of essence dispersed through the entire universe. And in harmony with this rarified theology, Christ's second advent, or his return, would be the condensation of this essence to some locality, say the mount of Olivet! Christ arose from the dead with a physical form. "He is not here," said the angel, "for he is risen as he said." Matt.xxviii,6. {1861 JW, PERGO 5.1}

"And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail! And they came and held him by the feet, and they worshiped him." Verse 9. {1861 JW, PERGO 5.2}

"Behold my hands and my feet," said Jesus to those who stood in doubt of his resurrection, "that it is I myself. Handle me and see, for a spirit hath not flesh and bones as ye see me have. And when he had thus spoken, he showed them his hands and his feet. And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat? And they gave him a piece of broiled fish, and of an honey-comb, and he took it and did eat before them." Luke xxiv,39-43. {1861 JW, PERGO 5.3} [6]

After Jesus addressed his disciples on the mount of Olivet, he was taken up from them, and a cloud received him out of their sight. "And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold two men stood by them in white apparel, which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven." Acts i,9-11. J. W. {1861 JW, PERGO 6.1} ..."
 

ReChoired

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How is your doctrine different from trinitarianism?
Do you see now the massive divide?

"... IMMATERIALITY

THIS is but another name for nonentity. It is the negative of all things and beings - of all existence. There is not one particle of proof to be advanced to establish its existence. It has no way to manifest itself to any intelligence in heaven or on earth. Neither God, angels, nor men could possibly conceive of such a substance, being, or thing. It possesses no property or power by which to make itself manifest to any intelligent being in the universe. Reason and analogy never scan it, or even conceive of it. Revelation never reveals it, nor do any of our senses witness its existence. It cannot be seen, felt, heard, tasted, or smelled, even by the strongest organs, or the most acute sensibilities. It is neither liquid nor solid, soft nor hard - it can neither extend nor contract. In short, it can exert no influence whatever - it can neither act nor be acted upon. And even if it does exist, it can be of no possible use. It possesses no one, desirable property, faculty, or use, yet, strange to say, immateriality is the modern Christian's God, his anticipated heaven, his immortal self - his all! {1861 JW, PERGO 6.2}

O sectarianism! O atheism!! O annihilation!!! [7]

who can perceive the nice shades of difference between the one and the other? They seem alike, all but in name. The atheist has no God. The sectarian has a God without body or parts. Who can define the difference? For our part we do not perceive a difference of a single hair; they both claim to be the negative of all things which exist - and both are equally powerless and unknown. {1861 JW, PERGO 6.3}

The atheist has no after life, or conscious existence beyond the grave. The sectarian has one, but it is immaterial, like his God; and without body or parts. Here again both are negative, and both arrive at the same point. Their faith and hope amount to the same; only it is expressed by different terms. {1861 JW, PERGO 7.1}

Again, the atheist has no heaven in eternity. The sectarian has one, but it is immaterial in all its properties, and is therefore the negative of all riches and substances. Here again they are equal, and arrive at the same point. {1861 JW, PERGO 7.2}

As we do not envy them the possession of all they claim, we will now leave them in the quiet and undisturbed enjoyment of the same, and proceed to examine the portion still left for the despised materialist to enjoy. {1861 JW, PERGO 7.3}

What is God? He is material, organized intelligence, possessing both body and parts. Man is in his image. {1861 JW, PERGO 7.4}

What is Jesus Christ? He is the Son of God, and is like his Father, being "the brightness of his Father's glory, and the express image of his person." He is a material intelligence, with body, parts, and passions; possessing immortal flesh and immortal bones. {1861 JW, PERGO 7.5}

What are men? They are the offspring of Adam. They are capable of receiving intelligence and exaltation to such a degree as to be raised from the dead with a body like that of Jesus Christ, [8] and to possess immortal flesh and bones. Thus perfected, they will possess the material universe, that is, the earth, as their "everlasting inheritance." With these hopes and prospects before us, we say to the Christian world who hold to immateriality, that they are welcome to their God - their life - their heaven, and their all. They claim nothing but that which we throw away; and we claim nothing but that which they throw away. Therefore, there is no ground for quarrel or contention between us. {1861 JW, PERGO 7.6}

We choose all substance - what remains
The mystical sectarian gains;
All that each claims, each shall possess,
Nor grudge each other's happiness.

An immaterial God they choose,
For such a God we have no use;
An immaterial heaven and hell,
In such a heaven we cannot dwell.

We claim the earth, the air, and sky,
And all the starry worlds on high;
Gold, silver, ore, and precious stones,
And bodies made of flesh and bones.

Such is our hope, our heaven, our all,
When once redeemed from Adam's fall;
All things are ours, and we shall be,
The Lord's to all eternity. {1861 JW, PERGO 8.1} ..." - Personality of God, by James Springer White, 1861, pages 1.1 - 8.1
 

Wrangler

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Your assumption of "unitarianism" is the "rejection of logic, definition and language usage" unfortunately. The Bible (KJB) doesn't teach "unitarianism". It teaches quite plainly, Three eternal Persons/Beings,

No assumption. It’s simply a fact that the trinity is not in the Bible.

By contrast, God is said to be one alone over and over again. Even Jesus tells his Father he is the one true God at John 17:3. Doesn’t this mean anything to you?
 

Wrangler

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Again, no, it does not, and I gave specific examples, which you did not address. What you instead did, was bring up another text

Repeating ourselves is pointless. There is many proofs Jesus is not God. Jesus died and was resurrected by God is an obvious one.

Does it not mean anything to you that Jesus said his Father is the one true God at John 17:3? Does it not mean anything to you that Jesus talked about his God at John 20:17 and Revelations 3?


and all who receive Me will experience everlasting life, a new intimate relationship with You (the one True God) and Jesus the Anointed (the One You have sent).
John 17:3

But that was not the end:God raised Him from the dead
Acts 13:30
 

NayborBear

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Repeating ourselves is pointless. There is many proofs Jesus is not God. Jesus died and was resurrected by God is an obvious one.

Does it not mean anything to you that Jesus said his Father is the one true God at John 17:3? Does it not mean anything to you that Jesus talked about his God at John 20:17 and Revelations 3?


and all who receive Me will experience everlasting life, a new intimate relationship with You (the one True God) and Jesus the Anointed (the One You have sent).
John 17:3

But that was not the end:God raised Him from the dead
Acts 13:30

Some people get "hung up/seduced/beguiled/deceived/deluded/and even bullied" on the word/term God.
Not to mention the Government (of the Kingdom of God and Light) Messiah bares on His shoulders.
The word "God" is a Title. As in "have no other god/s before Me!"
Jesus himself, thought it not robbery in laying such claim on "The Title!"
Neither did the GOD, and Father of Jesus DENY Messiah of "The Title!"

But when people start refuting or referring TO Messiah like/as, "Messiah alone IS GOD ALONE?"
(other translations of Christ's defining attributes, would be: Yeshua Messiah, The Holy Anointed One, Jehovah's Savior/Jehovah's Salvation, Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God (title), Everlasting Father (referring to Jehovah's Spirit IN Messiah), Prince of Peace?"

To Him who sits on His Throne, with Hamashiach at His right hand side?
Says: "Ya see?" "THIS! Is gonna be a problem!"

Messiah's NAME is NOT "Jealous!" "Whosoever WILL, may come!"

But His FATHER'S NAME IS!

Exodus 34:14
For thou shalt worship no other god: for the Lord (denoting governmental structure, on the shoulders of the future Messiah)), whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:

For,
ya see? No one knows God the Father's ACTUAL NAME! Save, He Himself!
Revelation 19:
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.




 

keithr

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Weak. If Jesus said to baptize in the name of Moe, Larry and Curly, it does not mean they are God. And it say nothing of their co-equal, co-eternal, co-substantial nature.
Indeed.

I have often wondered if Matthew 28:19 might be a spurious verse. I've not come across any proof of that, but it just seems suspicious to me that if Jesus told his disciples to baptise (immerse) into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, then why did the disciples not do that?

There are only four cases which are recorded in the Bible where it mentions the disciples baptising into somebody's name, and in all cases they were baptised into the name of Jesus only. In particular, Peter preached on the day of Pentecost (just days after Jesus' command in Mat 28:19):

(Act 2:36) “Let all the house of Israel therefore know certainly that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified.”
(Act 2:37) Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?”
(Act 2:38) Peter said to them, “Repent, and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Would Peter forget Jesus' command so quickly? How can you baptise in the name of the Holy Spirit if the Holy Spirit doesn't have a name? The Holy Spirit is God's Spirit.

John 4:24 (WEB): God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.”

Romans 8 (ESV):
8) Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9) You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.
10) But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11) If the Spirit of him [God] who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.
 

keithr

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Jesus himself, thought it not robbery in laying such claim on "The Title!"
That's a mistranslation in the KJV:

Philippians 2:6 -
(KJV): Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
(WEB): who, existing in the form of God, didn’t consider equality with God a thing to be grasped,

The KJV translation (Translated by Triitarians!) gives the opposite meaning of what the Greek manuscripts say!

Exodus 34:14
For thou shalt worship no other god: for the Lord (denoting governmental structure, on the shoulders of the future Messiah)), whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:
That Lord should be LORD or Yahweh - it is God's name in the Hebrew text.


No one knows God the Father's ACTUAL NAME! Save, He Himself!
Revelation 19:
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
That is referring to Jesus, not God:

(Rev 19:11) And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

(Rev 3:14) “To the angel of the assembly in Laodicea write: “The Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of God’s creation, says these things:

(Rev 1:5) and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us, and washed us from our sins by his blood;
 

amigo de christo

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Weak. If Jesus said to baptize in the name of Moe, Larry and Curly, it does not mean they are God. And it say nothing of their co-equal, co-eternal, co-substantial nature.
In what world would God desire anyone to be baptized in the name of one who is not God . Did you ever ponder that .
God would not point to the names of other gods . They are ONE my friend .
Just because i take a bucket of water from the ocean and present it to my class and ask the class
is this the ocean . And they answer and say well no , dont mean it aint . FROM WHENCE did i draw it . ITS the same essence
as the ocean . same water , same everything . And if i pour it back into the ocean , THERE IT IS , same ocean .
The three are truly one .
 
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amigo de christo

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Let us follow the Lord in Spirit and in Truth . Always thanking Him for the wonderful blessing of the mercy of His grace
which has been given us in Christ .
Always thanking Him and praising His name for He is worthy .
Let all be refreshed in the pages of the bible and be learning Him well .
 

NayborBear

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Indeed.

I have often wondered if Matthew 28:19 might be a spurious verse. I've not come across any proof of that, but it just seems suspicious to me that if Jesus told his disciples to baptise (immerse) into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, then why did the disciples not do that?

There are only four cases which are recorded in the Bible where it mentions the disciples baptising into somebody's name, and in all cases they were baptised into the name of Jesus only. In particular, Peter preached on the day of Pentecost (just days after Jesus' command in Mat 28:19):

(Act 2:36) “Let all the house of Israel therefore know certainly that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified.”
(Act 2:37) Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?”
(Act 2:38) Peter said to them, “Repent, and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Would Peter forget Jesus' command so quickly? How can you baptise in the name of the Holy Spirit if the Holy Spirit doesn't have a name? The Holy Spirit is God's Spirit.

John 4:24 (WEB): God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.”

Romans 8 (ESV):
8) Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9) You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.
10) But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11) If the Spirit of him [God] who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.


I don't "think" Matthew 28:19 is spurious, and suspicious, may be too strong but, it is kinda misleading. Inasmuch as it places the Father before the Son.
Probably an honest error done by a very relieved and joyful converted Jewish greek copier.

If written in long hand? It may have come out more like "....Baptizing them in My name, afterwhich one comes unto My Father, in My name, and WE WILL determine "the gift!"
 

amigo de christo

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Appeal to Ignorance. Implied premise is that it only makes sense to Baptize in the name of a God.

Many US holidays are named after men who are not Holy.
Many US , lets examine this . Your right many Us holidays are named after men .
But GOD is not a man that he would give any name to be baptized in . ONLY in HIS NAME .
The God head is a mystery . Phillip if ye have seen me ye have seen the Father , so how do you say Show me the Father .
Its a mystery all right . Its the same essence my friend .
 
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