Question no Protestant can answer

theefaith · May 11, 2021

Backlit said:
So who was Thomas's successors in India and why did the Jesuits persecute them in the 17th century? The Celtic church in Britain was established very early through missionaries who must have been sent there by Apostolic successors... Why did the Catholic Church persecute them in the 6th century? The same could be said for the Assyrian and Persian churches, the church in Ethiopia which began through the disciple/successor of Philip. Why does the Catholic Church deny that history? Is it because those Apostolic churches, established by Apostolic succession, taught scripture and rejected the myths and fables of Rome? I think yes.

Jn 10:16 one true church founded by Christ on Peter matt 16:18

theefaith · May 11, 2021

The word of God is not limited to scripture

scripture and tradition

the teaching authority of the apostles

BreadOfLife · May 11, 2021

Curtis said:
Better read Jesus’ message to the 7 churches, in Revelation- because Jesus says they are teaching wrong doctrines in many of them.

His Church cannot officially teach error. Individuals within the Church CAN.
THAT is the warning of Matt. 7:15-20.

In the 16th century - there were some priests spreading false teachings about Indulgences - to which Luther objected. This was NOT official Church teaching, but perversions from those the individual men, like Johann Tetzel.

It's the same thing with the 7 churches of Revelation. They are NOT different churches - they are ALL part of the ONE Church, but in 7 different locations. There were some bad things being taught and practiced in some of them

BreadOfLife · May 11, 2021

Backlit said:
Yet the church denies the authority of scripture every 7th day of the week.

No, it doesn't - Sabbatarians do.
Col. 2:16-17
Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. These are a SHADOW of the things to come, but the SUBSTANCE belongs to CHRIST.

Backlit said:
I think the authority of the word of God is somewhat higher than the church. Christ, the head of the church, etc etc. I'm sure you are familiar with that.

Uh huh - and GOD Himself gave His Church Supreme earthly Authority - that WHATEVER she bound and loosed on earth would also be bound and loosed in Heaven (Matt. 16:18-19, Matt. 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 16:12-15, John 20:21-23).

Backlit said:
Yes, it was agreed by Christians... But well before there was any hierarchal organized church in Rome. The Apostolic churches outside of Rome had the scriptures before Jerome or that pagan emperor Constantine put anything together.

Constantine didn't have anything to do with it, my ignorant friend.
Time for a history lesson . . .

During the first 300+ years of the Church's existence, there were MANY Books that were considered to be Scripture, and were read from pulpits during that time - AS Scripture. Among these were The Shepherd of Hermas, The Epistles of Barnabas, The Letter of Clement, The Protoevangelium of James, etc.

The Synod of Rome (382) is where the canon was first formally identified.
- 11 years after that, it was confirmed at the Synod of Hippo (393).
- 4 years later, at the Council (or Synod) of Carthage (397), it was yet again confirmed. The bishops wrote at the end of their document, "But let Church beyond sea (Rome) be consulted about confirming this canon". There were 44 bishops, including St. Augustine who signed the document.
- 7 years later, in 405, in a letter from Pope Innocent I to Exsuperius, Bishop of Toulouse, he reiterated the canon.
- 14 years after that, at the 2nd Council (Synod) of Carthage (419) the canon was again formally confirmed.

The Canon of Scripture was officially closed at the Council of Trent in the 16th century because of the perversions happening within Protestantism and the random editing and deleting of books from the Canon.

And them's the historical facts.

BreadOfLife · May 11, 2021

Backlit said:
Nope. Not what I said. Those"millions" go back a lot earlier than the 16th century..

Closely isn't any where near enough. God is particular in His prophetic pictures... He doesn't want anyone making mistakes like you are promoting... You pretend to be "schooling" people while you have ignored 1000 years of biblical scholarship.

All the above directly point to the Catholic church. The hills aren't literal as the prophecy clearly indicates... They are kind of empires. The rest fall so nearly into the Papacy's lap it is nothing other than blindness, and telecon 1000 years of biblical scholarship to reject it.

Yep. And your preterist hermeneutic is nonsense.

And such is the typical reaction of those who haven't read her.

WRONG.

"Closely" is close enough to eliminate the Catholic Church as being the Harlot. If apostate Jerusalem more closely fits the descripyion - as I have AMPLY shown - then this would eliminate ANY other entity that doesn't fit it as closely. And it WASN'T only about the "7 hills". I laid out a fairly airtight Scriptural comparison.

As for your last remark in RED - that's why virtually EVERY credible Biblical scholar agrees with me.
Some are Preterists and some are partial Preterists. To say that ALL of what is in Revelation has YET to happen is to stagger blindly and ignorantly through God's Word.

theefaith · May 11, 2021

BreadOfLife said:
His Church cannot officially teach error. Individuals within the Church CAN.
THAT is the warning of Matt. 7:15-20.

In the 16th century - there were some priests spreading false teachings about Indulgences - to which Luther objected. This was NOT official Church teaching, but perversions from those the individual men, like Johann Tetzel.

It's the same thing with the 7 churches of Revelation. They are NOT different churches - they are ALL part of the ONE Church, but in 7 different locations. There were some bad things being taught and practiced in some of them

the they you refer to are local bishops not peter and the universal church

on faith and morals cannot teach error
Jn 8:32 Jn 16:13

Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 acts 9:4 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 15:5 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20

Lk 10:16
He who hears you hears me...

John 13:20
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

Jn 20:21 as my father sent me, so send in you. (The apostles) posses the same power mission and authority as Christ!
Peter, the apostles and their successors!

so if the universal church teaches errors then Christ is the author of error not so
He is the way, the truth, and the life

BreadOfLife · May 11, 2021

marks said:
If Mary was sinless why did Jesus die?

marks said:
If there be any other way, Jesus prayed.

Were Mary born sinless, free from the sin of Adam, then this would have been another way.

Just saw this and wanted to address it.
The answer is in John 10:18.
John 10:18
"No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from my Father.”

Jesus didn't die as a result of sin, like the rest of us.
He died willingly, as a sacrifice for the expiation of sin.

theefaith · May 11, 2021

Mary’s sinlessness is in virtue of the merits of the passion, blood, and death of Christ!

Ineffabilis Deus
The Immaculate Conception
Pope BI. Pius IX - 1854

“We declare, pronounce, and define that the doctrine which holds that the most Blessed Virgin Mary, in the first instance of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege granted by Almighty God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Savior of the human race, was preserved free from all stain of original sin, is a doctrine revealed by God and therefore to be believed firmly and constantly by all the faithful.”

theefaith · May 11, 2021

Biblical Mary!

From Genesis to revelation!

First promise of salvation!

Gen 3:15
And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Total war: enmity

None of satans works are found in Mary, she belongs entirely to God!
Even consecration herself to God at a very young age.

Isa 7:14

1 kings 2: 17 And he said, Speak, I pray thee, unto Solomon the king, (for he will not say thee nay,) that he give me Abishag the Shunammite to wife.

18 And Bathsheba said, Well; I will speak for thee unto the king.

19 Bathsheba therefore went unto king Solomon, to speak unto him for Adonijah. And the king rose up to meet her, and bowed himself unto her, and sat down on his throne, and caused a seat to be set for the king's mother; and she sat on his right hand.

20 Then she said, I desire one small petition of thee; I pray thee, say me not nay. And the king said unto her, Ask on, my mother: for I will not say thee nay.

2 Tim 2:8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:

2 Tim 2: 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work. How much more Mary who was prepared by God thru the immaculate conception! Lk 1:49

Heb 2:7

Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands

Mary is the great sign of the divinity of Christ!

Isa 7:14
Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Matt 1:23
Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Lk 1:35
And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Lk 2:35
a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also, that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.

Matt 27:54
Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.

Jn 2:3
And when they wanted wine, the mother of Jesus saith unto him, They have no wine.

Jn 2:11
This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him.

Rev 12:1
And there appeared a great sign in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

Rev 1:5
And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

Mother of God Lk 1:43
Immaculate conception (sinless) gen 3:15 enmity or total war none of satans works are found in Mary
Also Lk 1:28 full of grace lk 1:49 great things plural (immaculate conception of Mary and the miraculous conception of Jesus) Lk 1:30 found favor with God (the salvation lost by Adam) mother of our salvation Lk 2:30
Perpetual Virgin Isa 7:14 matt 1:21
Lk 1:31-34

Queen of heaven
In the line of david’s kingdom the mother of the king is always queen
Jesus is king Lk 1:32-33
And king of heaven so Mary is queen of heaven

A Royal greeting!

Lk 1:28 is the only place in the Bible where such a greeting takes place!
Mary is of the tribe of Judah and the royal house of David the king!

God himself is greeting Mary thru the instrument of the angel Gabriel!

This is a Royal greeting of the queen of heaven and earth! Queen of the angels and saints! Mary is of the house of king David!

In the line of king David the mother of the king is the queen, as Jesus Christ is the king of heaven and earth and the angels and saints so Mary is the queen of the same! Lk 1:32-33

Lk 1:28 And the angel entered to her, and said, Hail, full of grace; the Lord is with thee; blessed be thou among women.
29 And when she had heard, she was troubled in his word, and thought what manner salutation this was.
30 And the angel said to her, Dread thou not, Mary, for thou hast found grace with God.

Mary is queen in rev 12:1 and heb 4:16
Mother of divine grace

Mary is our spiritual mother

Mary is the Mother of the living in Christ and the new creation!

Genesis 3:20
And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.

John 19:26-27
When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son! Then saith has he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home.

Jesus is not just asking John to care for His mother, if so He would have said so.

Jesus is in the very least making Mary John’s spiritual mother! And if the apostle John needs a spiritual mother so do we!
What is the family of God without a mother? The mother is the heart of the family! Jesus said I will not leave you orphans! Jn 14:18 He proved Mary the mother of one disciple then He does so for all disciples!

As eve was the mother of all the living in the first creation, gen 3:20 so Mary is the mother of all those who live in Christ and the new creation!

Rev 12:17 our spiritual mother!

Rachel is spiritual mother of Israel!
A type of Mary as spiritual mother of Christians!

The 12 sons of Jacob have 4 biological mothers, but Rachel is the spiritual mother of all Israel!

Matt 2:18 In Rama was there a voice heard, lamentation, and weeping, and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children, and would not be comforted, because they are no more.

Ark of the new covenant!
The dwelling place of God!
God dwelt in Mary’s womb for 9 months, remember the ark was incorruptible wood covered with pure gold signifying Mary’s immaculate purity!
read exodus or any place in the Old Testament where something came into contact with God or was consecrated to the service of God it had to be pure and Holy!
In the ark was the word of God!
In Mary the new ark is the living Word!
In the ark was the mana!
In Mary was the bread come down from heaven! Jn 6
Bethlehem means house to of bread!

Lk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Matt 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, (Isa 7:14) and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Jn 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Holy mother of God!

Lk 1:28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, Mary full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

Wrangler · May 11, 2021

theefaith said:
a doctrine revealed by God

Just a human invention untied to Scripture.

Wrangler · May 11, 2021

theefaith said:
in view of the merits of Jesus Christ

Something granted in the past due to something done in the future. Some kind of time travel there.

theefaith · May 11, 2021

Ephesians 1:15
Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,

nothing about heretics being included

theefaith · May 11, 2021

Wrangler said:
Just a human invention untied to Scripture.

divine revelation and the word of God are not limited to scripture

theefaith · May 11, 2021

Wrangler said:
Something granted in the past due to something done in the future. Some kind of time travel there.

Lk 1:37

JunChosen · May 11, 2021

BreadOfLife said:
Scripture is Authoritative but it is not the SOLE Authority.
Christ's Church is Authoritative - but it is not the SOLE Authority. It IS, however, our FINAL earthly Authority - and I have proven this numerous times now (Matt. 16:18-19,

There IS no single earthly church that is authoritative! Your church's interpretation of 1 Timothy 3:15 is false for it is God who is the pillar and ground of the truth [John 10:6] and NEVER any church!

Besides, Matthew 16:18-19 does NOT stipulate that Peter is the Rock. So that there is no confusion, John under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit wrote that Jesus called Peter "Cephas," which by interpretation, A stone! [John 1:42].

Every believer in a sense is a lively "STONE" built up as a "spiritual house" an "holy priesthood," to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. [1 Peter 2:5].

BreadOfLife said:
These verses state that WHATEVER His Church binds or looses on earth will be bound and loosed in Heaven.[/QUOTE]

WRONG! We've discussed this issue also in the past and told you to find someone who knows how to read and understand Greek, because the Greek really stipulates to say, "shall/will having been bound and loosed in heaven" that is, the prior action is in heaven!

BreadOfLife said:

This is talking about the scroll pertaining to Revelation ONLY and NOT the entire Bible.

Click to expand...

WRONG!-Again we have discussed this issue in the past and you have not learned. The Book of Revelation CANNOT stand alone apart from the Bible. You will Never understand Revelation 13:8 without reading the Bible.

BreadOfLife said:

Learn how to rightly divide the Word of God . . .

Click to expand...

Practice what you preach!

BreadOfLife said:

The Catholic Church is the Original Tree from which ALL Protestantism splintered - and continues to perpetually splinter to the tune of tens of thousands of disjointed sects that ALL teach different doctrines - yet ALL claim to be "The Church".

Click to expand...

It is better to be in a denomination where truth can still be heard than one church that when it falls the whole congregation falls!!!

BreadOfLife said:

Christ's Church is UNITED - it is ONE (John 17:20-23). A shining beacon, a "city on a hill that cannot be hidden" (Matt. 5:14).
It is NOT a gaggle of disjointed or "scattered" believers who ALL believe in different doctrines.

Click to expand...

I beg to differ. Jesus said in John 10:14,16:

14 I am the good shepherd, and know my [sheep], and am known of mine.
16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, [and] one shepherd.

To God Be The Glory

theefaith · May 11, 2021

JunChosen said:
There IS no single earthly church that is authoritative! Your church's interpretation of 1 Timothy 3:15 is false for it is God who is the pillar and ground of the truth [John 10:6] and NEVER any church!

(Christ and His church’s are one! Acts 9:4)

Besides, Matthew 16:18-19 does NOT stipulate that Peter is the Rock. So that there is no confusion, John under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit wrote that Jesus called Peter "Cephas," which by interpretation, A stone! [John 1:42].

(Matt 16:18 applies to peters person, you cannot give the keys or jurisdictional authority to a confession)

Every believer in a sense is a lively "STONE" built up as a "spiritual house" an "holy priesthood," to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. [1 Peter 2:5].

Yep but first peter then the apostles then the faithful Matt 10:2

Brakelite · May 11, 2021

theefaith said:
mall heretics, schismatics, and apostates are our the church, the one ark of salvation!
You really ought to check on what some of these groups actually believed

Doctrine of heretics

The one true church founded by Christ on Peter the apostles and their successors verses the heretics, schismatics, and apostates!

Simon Magnus: the father of all heretics!
Condemned by Saint Peter!

Early church:
Gnostics: secret or hidden knowledge of salvation.
Novationism: extreme rightism (fundamentalism)
Arianism: Jesus was not divine, condemned at the first apostolic council of Nicea with the trinity defined!
iconoclasts: opposed the use of images and icons, they were condemned at the second apostolic council of Nicea!
Montanism: basically a early Pentecostal movement!

Middle Ages:
albigensians: duelist sin of Manichaeism
god of good (spiritual or light) and a god of evil. (matter or darkness)

Early Protestant rebellion:
Wycliffe: predestination and the Bible alone.
hus: opposed the papacy, Bible only authority.

Protestant revolt:
Luther:
waldensians:
Huguenots:
Tyndall:
calvin:
Henry 8 and Cranmer the anglicans:
All evangelicals, Pentecostals and fundamentalists:

Protestant theology, five Solas, opposes the church founded by christ on Peter and started their own churches opposed each other in authority, some more fundamentalist. Condemned at the great apostolic council of Trent!

All heretics teaching false doctrines claiming biblical authority by the power of the Holy Spirit!

The rebellious slavery of Heretical fundamentalism begets only a thick black Spiritual Darkness! With spiritual pride, presumption, and arrogance!

Wow. One thing I will say for you. There is no mistaking true Catholic dogma when you post. Other Catholics will circumvent the truth... Obfuscate... But not theefaith. No no. Anyone want to know the attitude of the Catholic church toward any non Catholic all they need do is read your posts.
Great reminder of where we all stand.
All of us.
Lost.
Destined to hell.
Under threat of persecution the moment you have civil power.
And you would have the audacity to claim you are showing grace and the love of Christ.

Brakelite · May 11, 2021

BreadOfLife said:
No, it doesn't - Sabbatarians do.
Col. 2:16-17
Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. These are a SHADOW of the things to come, but the SUBSTANCE belongs to CHRIST.

Really? And I thought you'd claimed to be a Bible scholar.

BreadOfLife said:
Some are Preterists and some are partial Preterists. To say that ALL of what is in Revelation has YET to happen is to stagger blindly and ignorantly through God's Word.

Agree.

JunChosen · May 11, 2021

theefaith said:
Yep but first peter then the apostles then the faithful Matt 10:2

NOPE- All believers stand on the same ground!

To God Be The Glory

BreadOfLife · May 11, 2021

JunChosen said:
There IS no single earthly church that is authoritative! Your church's interpretation of 1 Timothy 3:15 is false for it is God who is the pillar and ground of the truth [John 10:6] and NEVER any church!

You don't know your Bible very well, DO you . . . .
1 Tim 3:15
If I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the CHURCH of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

This sentence is referring to the CHURCH as the primary subject.
God is the secondary subject of this sentence. Take an English class . . .

JunChosen said:
Besides, Matthew 16:18-19 does NOT stipulate that Peter is the Rock. So that there is no confusion, John under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit wrote that Jesus called Peter "Cephas," which by interpretation, A stone! [John 1:42].

Every believer in a sense is a lively "STONE" built up as a "spiritual house" an "holy priesthood," to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. [1 Peter 2:5].

WRONG again.
Jesus and His Apostles spoke Aramaic - NOT Greek. The NT was WRITTEN in Greek, which was the lingua franca of the time.

What Jesus ACTUALLY said to him was:
Matt. 16:18
And I tell you, you are Kepha, and on this Kepha I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Kepha simply means "ROCK" - not small rock or "pebble" - just "ROCK". This is why Paul refers to him as "Cephas" in his letters, which is a Greek transliteration of the Aramaic, "Kepha". By the way, this correlates PERFECTLY with Rev. 21:14, where the TWELVE foundations of the New Jerusalem are named after the TWELVE Apostles.

STUDY your Bible, for cryin' out loud . . .

JunChosen said:
WRONG! We've discussed this issue also in the past and told you to find someone who knows how to read and understand Greek, because the Greek really stipulates to say, "shall/will having been bound and loosed in heaven" that is, the prior action is in heaven!

GREAT.
That strengthens the Catholic position even MORE.

WHATEVER the Church declares on earth has be PRE-ORDANIED in Heaven.

JunChosen said:
WRONG!-Again we have discussed this issue in the past and you have not learned. The Book of Revelation CANNOT stand alone apart from the Bible. You will Never understand Revelation 13:8 without reading the Bible.

WRONG.

Rev. 22:18-19 is talking about the Book of Revelation ALONE. It does NOT refer to ANY other Books.
You will NOT find a credible Protestant scholar who disagrees with that.

JunChosen said:
Practice what you preach!
It is better to be in a denomination where truth can still be heard than one church that when it falls the whole congregation falls!!!

The truth doesn't "fall" when Christ Himself guaranteed that even the gates of Hell wouldn't prevail against it.
What kind of weak god have YOU invented for yourself??

JunChosen said:
I beg to differ. Jesus said in John 10:14,16:

14 I am the good shepherd, and know my [sheep], and am known of mine.
16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be ONE FOLD, [and] one shepherd.

Now THIS is an exercise in ignorance . . .

Are you telling me that you DIDN'T know that Jesus came to the preach to the lost sheep of Israel (Matt. 15:24)??
The "Other sheep" He spoke of are the Gentiles - and they are NOT supposed to be "scattered". He said that there shall be ONE FOLD (John 10:16) - not tens of thousands of perpetually-splintering folds that ALL teach different doctrines yet ALL refer to themselves as "The Church".

At the Last Supper, Jesus fervently prayed for the UNITY of His Church - that they ALL remain ONE - as He and the Father are ONE (John 17:20-23).
Protestantism is perpetual divorce from that ONENESS that He desires.[/QUOTE]

Question no Protestant can answer

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