Amen! And He is with you now. Can He not be with you in that way now? At other times? Any time? All times?
Don't put limits, that's my suggestion.
Much love!
Binding And Loosing: A Proper Understanding
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Don't put limits, that's my suggestion.
Much love!
I know. I've read through them several times, the rest of the thread also. I'm not seeing it myself.
Much love!
So, I suggest that this minor inconsistency should be considered. You are going one direction with half, and the other direction with the other half.
Much love!
Yes what I understand, Heaven is absent of demons, Satan,sin. Do you mean/ does this mean in the spiritual realms? Like the present battles?
Well, yes... if I understand you correctly. You see, demons operate under a chain of command. Like the vision mentioned in Posts #2 and #3 was describing, higher ranks of demons take up larger "circles" or areas of influence over the earth. Under their authority are lesser demons who carry out the work of influencing humans on an individual basis. But when believers are loosed from these lesser demons by the servants of God, even those demons with high rank in the heavens can't do anything about it, because the power of God will enter the picture to guarantee things are carried out. If Satan tries to send an army to keep the child of God bound, the Lord will send an army of His angels to ensure that she is not.
That's an extreme example, but it teaches the principle of how things work in both heaven and on earth.
I have something I can show you that you might find interesting in this regard. Let me find it.
Well, yes... if I understand you correctly. You see, demons operate under a chain of command. Like the vision mentioned in Posts #2 and #3 was describing, higher ranks of demons take up larger "circles" or areas of influence over the earth. Under their authority are lesser demons who carry out the work of influencing humans on an individual basis. But when believers are loosed from these lesser demons by the servants of God, even those demons with high rank in the heavens can't do anything about it, because the power of God will enter the picture to guarantee things are carried out. If Satan tries to send an army to keep the child of God bound, the Lord will send an army of His angels to ensure that she is not.
That's an extreme example, but it teaches the principle of how things work in both heaven and on earth.
I have something I can show you that you might find interesting in this regard. Let me find it.
Here, @Mayflower. This is taken directly from one of my studies. It helps explain Satan's "chain of command" so to speak.
_____________
Baptist minister Harold Pittman was given a vision of Second Heaven back in 1979. In it, he was taken up in spirit and escorted by the angels of God through the invisible dividing wall between the physical and spiritual realms into Second Heaven, the realm where Satan and his angels established their spiritual kingdom over this world long ago. While being shown the activities of various classes of demon spirits, he recalls being startled by a demonic army that suddenly appeared and was marching straight towards them:
We stopped in front of one group of demons who were engaged in social activity. The angels were in the process of explaining what was going on and then, I could suddenly hear a great noise that sounded like an army marching. Looking up, I saw this column of giant soldiers marching toward me. I noticed the demons stopped what they were doing and began to move out of the way of the approaching soldiers. Fascinated with the appearance of the approaching giants, I suddenly felt my escorting angels stiffen, as if they were turning to stone. I stiffened also, and did not move a muscle. It seemed that the marching army would walk right over us. When they reached a point approximately eight to ten feet from us, they suddenly swerved and went around us. One of the giants broke ranks and came up to me. Leaning down, he put his face eyeball to eyeball with mine and leered at me. Had I not been under the protection of the Holy Spirit, there would have been some sort of confrontation... It was obvious that these beings hated me and the angels with me. It was also obvious that, if they could have, they would have torn us apart... It was revealed to me that [these] demons are the "cream of Satan's crop," so to speak. They are his ruling order and from this group comes all his princes who are the rulers of darkness (Ephesians 6:12) and who are the rulers of principalities. They control spiritual wickedness in high places. (Demons: An Eyewitness Account, P.22)
Unlike the lower-level demons who have assumed deformed and perverted shapes since the fall, these ruling angels are still perfect in form, and Pittman described them as being similar in appearance to well-built athletes. Consistent with other testimonies that describe angels as roughly 8-9 feet in height, he repeatedly described these soldiers as "giants" who wore a type of uniform similar in design to those worn by Roman soldiers during New Testament times. The plumed helmet shielded the head and neck area, the breast plate left the arms bear but covered the chest area, the pleated skirt was girded by a belt, and the boots covered the legs from the knee down. All the garments were made of a "metal-like material" he could not accurately identify.
This column of "warring demons" are what he described as "the cream of Satan's crop." Along similar lines, a deliverance minister from Chicago by the name of Winn Worley often extracted information from demons during exorcism regarding the inner workings of Satan's kingdom and his chain of command. The following is an excerpt from that article:
There are Chief Kings and Chief Princes, and under them are Kings and Princes who rule over various geographical and spiritual areas... For example, each State in the United States is ruled over by a Prince. Some examples: Illinois - Roman Catholic; Indiana - Rebellion; Pennsylvania - Woman Preacher; Louisiana - Southern Curses; Texas - Power; Minnesota - Adultery; Wisconsin - Madness (mental disorders); Michigan - Psychology; New York - Sickness; Washington D.C. - Rebellion; Arkansas - Occult. At the time this was written Florida had changed from control by the Prince of the Occult to the Prince of Fantasy... The control of a geographical area seems to rest on the success of a Prince in controlling the majority of the persons within that place, but it also has to do with the ferocity and power of that Prince. Raw power is the key to control the Satanic structure. A General is in charge of a Legion (6,000), while a Prince will control a number of Legions. A Ruler or Captain commands a Cohort (600), and there can be Chief Captains and Chief Rulers with still more authority. A Centurion controls 100 demons and if he controls less than a hundred he is called a Strongman. (Battling The Hosts Of Hell: Diary Of An Exorcist, P.235)
These Rulers in the Second Heaven command lower classes of demons on earth who are charged with directly influencing human beings. Pittman also witnessed these lower classes of demons at work, and how they carry out their orders of specifically tempting individuals to commit various sins:
I watched in amazement as the demons went about their business of stalking human victims. It was obvious that this stalking was not done on a random basis, but was a very personal thing with each person already having been targeted... This spectacle was similar to a hunt, although not like a man's hunt for animals. In this hunt the individual had been carefully targeted. All the victims had already been skillfully searched with their weaknesses precisely cataloged. The tempters in the areas of the victim's weaknesses were assigned their task. They followed and waited for the moment when the victim would be the most vulnerable and step into their prepared trap. They waited for the moment when the victim would arrive at a place where he would be weak and receptive to the temptation they would spring on him. Their victim was never left alone, for once the assignment was made, the demon would never leave the targeted individual. No matter where that person would go, he would have an unseen travelling companion. In many cases, he would have an entire host of unseen traveling companions. Oh, physical man! If only you could see who travels with you! (Demons: An Eyewitness Account, P.56)
I've always thought that the 'binding' and 'loosening' or locking out and opening up, regarding the Kingdom was all about keeping the (earthly and heavenly) Kingdom and individual members and congregations secure, pure and holy. And the use of a believers' spiritual access keys was the instrument for it. And that these spiritual 'keys' designed and given from heaven was placed in every believers 'hands and hearts.' We are all given these keys once we are saved. They are the keys to the Kingdom, indeed.
Matthew 16:13-20....
Peter, the one who first gained knowledge from the Father, by design and on purpose, concerning his Son and who Yahshua represented on Earth was the first to be the SYMBOLIC, initial and temporary gatekeeper with the keys of the Kingdom. It was to point to the fact that Peter just received a message from the Father as if he was already being of the Spirit, before Pentecost. This was the symbolic preparatory designation for Peter. It could have been by another apostle. He was the initial appointee given by the rock of our salvation, promised symbolic at that time, the initial keys so to speak because no one had one including Peter. I guess I might be redundant already... No one was Spirit-filled yet until Pentecost. I guess I wanted to foot-stomp that point.
If all in attendance were meant to gain this same knowledge at that time as Peter, they all would have been promised the same. And then that would be redundant and serve no good purpose for this symbolic gesture, but of real future power of the believer on earth. Only one person was required to set the prep-stage in motion according to the Father....
Of course we know that Peter would later be instrumental after his only spiritual weaknesses and to later strengthen his brethren..for another discussion.
Later, after the Pentecost event and on, all believers with the Spirit, had their own keys to control who would and who would not be allowed into the Kingdom, permanently or for a time....
The rock, the Christ that this Kingdom is built upon required safeguarding it whilst on earth with keys given to all genuine believers. They are housed within their hearts within the Spirit of Truth and of Christ who is in the Father, after their acceptance and initial salvation by God's grace.
Each set of keys is worn by every believer to preach the gospel to those that the Father permitted/permits (already decided/determined in heaven) and the same for not preaching the gospel to others, either as a group or individually. Note: that in most translations of Matt 16:19 it gives the impression that what is done first in earth, then heaven complies. It is actually the opposite. I believe we had some deliberate altering in translation along the way...for another discussion...Whatever FIRST is willed in heaven then it is either bound or loosened on the earth through a believer's spiritual cooperation with the Spirit- by owning a set of keys to it.
Second use of the keys: Also these keys were and are to keep out imposters, the tares, that would try live secretly in the Kingdom. They would be exposed and tossed out, again, as the will of God has determined it in Heaven first. No evil forces are allowed in, and to spoil it.
And them the third use of the keys (Matt 18:18)...to disciple a believer who sins against at least another believer according to the Father within the congregation or Kingdom of God. This believer's 'sin' if not revealed and repented of, is to be regarded as a binding action, and that person is temporarily out of the Kingdom. And this person is to be treated AS an unbeliever although he is still a believer according to the Spirit and the Father.
The Kingdom shall be everlasting holy and no evil or forces of Hades of evil shall be able to infiltrate, poison or destroy it from within or from the outside, in the long term.
The believer is charged with keys to safeguard the Kingdom on earth...
APAK
Wow. If this vision is correct, all the more to turn to God and His protection.
Hello, APAK.
Not gonna touch on much of this, but I would disagree with you on the above statement. It was the apostles and then the elders of the churches who wielded this authority in Christ through the Spirit, not just anyone. They were also referred to as "overseers" in the New Testament:
Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, which he obtained with his own blood. (Acts 20:28)
Yes. I like returning to these things sometimes because they remind me of just how real the spiritual war is.
If you have any questions, keep asking. This is an important subject IMO, and well worth the time discussing it. Like I said, I get reminded of things, and then the Lord builds on my knowledge as well.
Yes. I like returning to these things sometimes because they remind me of just how real the spiritual war is.
Like I said, I get reminded of things, and then the Lord builds on my knowledge as well.
Not sure of the idea of everything being because of demonic/unclean spirits if this is what you are saying. We have an old nature too that is tempted and have to renew the mind in the Word/speaking to the old nature to get into line.
Well I didn't mean to put you off, APAK. I have an apology I have to make - one I have made before to people - I am not always the most open-minded soul when it comes to theology. I try, because I honestly want to see things from other people's perspectives. But I find it tough wrapping my head around viewpoints that are extremely different from my own...
But I didn't mean to make you think I was blowing you off or anything. That's never my intention, and I appreciate you sharing your thoughts. They just can be rather hard for me to grasp in their entirety sometimes.
Absolutely. That's something that was made even more clear to me from your recent study. They tempt us through our own desires, as James said. That's why Pittman added that they stalk believers in specific ways for specific sins, and catalog and analyze their prey very carefully.
Creepy to talk about it in those terms, but I suppose that's about how it actually is.
changed my mind @Hidden In Him and added this late request of you...without going into my post then, as you decline to do, can you just provide scripture for your opinion that only elders and the 'so-called 'overseers' had these keys to the Kingdom, and I could never attain them as a simple believer. IMO, I think you have believed to much tradition....just saying..APAK
Ok, APAK, as per your request on another thread I will try to address some of your statements in this one. On the above, if there was "deliberate altering in translation" of this text in Matthew 16:19 it was done universally and across the board, as I checked, and there is no MSS known in existence that has any other reading than the one given. This would mean that the Living God chose to allow His word to be corrupted such that there is no accurate rendering preserved on earth anywhere. I don't accept this as a viable position, as I consider Him to be All-Powerful, and thus able to preserve His true word.
Ok, here is my problem with this contention. As stated in the first three posts, my argument is that the power to bind and loose does not rest with man but with Christ Himself, and only as the church enters into HIM will they have the power to bind and loose, because it is not their power but His.
This is why Jesus specified to the disciples that if two or three of them agreed on earth as touching anything, it would be done for them of His Father in Heaven, because He would be there in the midst of them (Matthew 18:20). This is the driving point of the first three posts in this thread. He must be in our midst speaking through us, or the words will mean nothing. It is not about us individually running around holding individual keys in our hands. That position runs contrary to all the relevant passages as well as the other sources I quoted you. I didn't really want to respond to all of that, but if you are requesting that I give you my response, that is my answer. We disagree, and strongly, because your argument runs completely counter to everything I was trying to show you is taught in scripture.
The elders are again akin to the disciples in this argument, in that if they agree as touching anything it would be done for them because Christ Jesus would be in their midst. You can see signs of this in James Chapter 5:
13 Is anyone among you suffering? Let him pray. Is anyone cheerful? Let him sing psalms. 14 Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 And the prayer of faith will save the sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. 16 Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much.
Now, if you'll notice, this passage discusses praying for others in the body of Christ, and the suggestion here is that the "righteous men" he was referring to were the elders of the church; those most mature in the faith, and thus carrying the most spiritual authority. If they agreed together in faith (implied by v.15), the Lord Himself would raise up the sick person, because the Lord Himself was in their midst and carrying out the healing on their behalf.
Same principle: We do not have authority in and of ourselves regardless of whether we are believers or not. We only have authority "in Christ" when Christ manifests Himself through us collectively, and speaks through us by His authority, commanding angels and binding demons as He deems it necessary.
Please feel free to respond, and my apologies for not doing a better job the first time. I will reserve mornings for going over your posts and taking my time at trying to respond better.
Grace and blessings,
- H
In short, you believe in an assembly of believers (and most probably more that 2 believers) to know and do the will of the Father. I do not. It does not take a 'church' corporate entity to save a soul for example. I and you can do that alone if God wills it to be done...that also means using the keys of the Kingdom of course. And there are other uses for these keys of the Kingdom that I have not discussed yet...I agree to disagree with you of course on this subject...APAK
No, APAK. We are not discussing here what it takes to simply "know and do the will of the Father." We are discussing what it takes to bind and loose. That is the subject matter in this thread specifically.
Again, we are not discussing here what it takes to simply "save a soul for example." We are discussing what it takes to bind and loose.
You are extrapolating.
That's quite alright with me. I hope it is still alright with you. Your post on the other thread makes it sound like you might feel otherwise, but even if you think it is arrogant of me to say so, I will say it again nevertheless: I am conformable with you disagreeing with me and it doesn't bother me. And I am also grateful for your responses. I just don't always find them easy to relate to, as we do come at subjects from an entirely different point of view.
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