Proof that Jesus is God

Wrangler said:

God is referred to using singular pronouns.

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What about when 'God' is referred to by plural ones?

"Elohiym" (Genesis 1:1 HOT, etc) x (a lot) (true plural, 3 or greater form)

"us" x 4 (plural pronoun), "our" x 3 (plural pronoun):

Gen_1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Gen_3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Gen_11:7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.

Isa_6:8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.

"we" x 3 (plural pronoun):

Joh_3:11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.

Yet, there are more:

"Creators" x 1 (Ecclesiastes 12:1 HOT, "בוראיך") (plural pronoun)

"Makers" x 3 (Job 35:10 HOT, "עשׂי") & (Psalms 149:2 HOT, "בעשׂיו") & (Isaiah 54:5 HOT, "עשׂיך") (plural pronoun)

"Holy Ones" x 1 (Proverbs 9:10 HOT, "קדשׁים") (plural pronoun)

This is just a sample of what is found in the Hebrew Masoretic OT. There are more.

Verbs are plural in association with Elohiym:

Gen 20:13 And it came to pass, when God caused me to wander from my father's house, that I said unto her, This is thy kindness which thou shalt shew unto me; at every place whither we shall come, say of me, He is my brother.

"התעו" (wander) connected to Elohiym is plural.

Gen 35:7 And he built there an altar, and called the place Elbethel: because there God appeared unto him, when he fled from the face of his brother.

"נגלו" (revealed) connected to Elohiym is plural.

Deu 4:7 For what nation is there so great, who hath God so nigh unto them, as the LORD our God is in all things that we call upon him for?

"קרבים" (nigh) connected to Elohiym is plural.

Jos 24:19 And Joshua said unto the people, Ye cannot serve the LORD: for he is an holy God; he is a jealous God; he will not forgive your transgressions nor your sins.

"קדשׁים" (Holy) connected to Elohiym is plural.

2Sa 7:23 And what one nation in the earth is like thy people, even like Israel, whom God went to redeem for a people to himself, and to make him a name, and to do for you great things and terrible, for thy land, before thy people, which thou redeemedst to thee from Egypt, from the nations and their gods?

"הלכו" (went) connected to Elohiym is plural.

Psa 58:11 (vs 12 HOT) So that a man shall say, Verily there is a reward for the righteous: verily he is a God that judgeth in the earth.

"שׁפטים" (judge) connected to Elohiym is plural.

Pro 30:3 I neither learned wisdom, nor have the knowledge of the holy.
Pro 30:4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?

"קדשׁים" (holy) connected to vs 4 with the "name" (of the Father), and that of "son's name".

Even the word "Adonai" ("לאדני") is given mostly/majority in the plural (Examples: Gen 18:30; Ex 34:23; Deut 10:17; Joshua 3:11,13; Ps 45:11; 114:7; 135:5; Mal 1:6).

BroRando said:

Jesus was begotten not omnipresent. (John 3:16) I'll chalk that up to you being a novice...

However, Jehovah’s angel said to him: “Why are you asking about my name, seeing that it is a Wonderful one?” (Judges 13:18)

Judges 13:18 in Hebrew.

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All things cannot be of Christ unless he was there in the beginning. Neither do you seem to have grasped the fact that Yahweh's name on earth was Jesus.
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keithr said:

Satan wasn't implying that Jesus was Israel!

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Jesus is the true Israel, and it is the Person/Being of the Holy Ghost who says so:

Jesus is Israel (Matthew 2:13-15,19-21; Hosea 11:1; his children are his disciples; Hebrews 2:13; Isaiah 8:16,18; John 13:33), the true "overcomer" (John 16:33; Revelation 3:21), the real "Prince" with God (Isaiah 9:6; Daniel 8:11,25, 9:25, 10:13,21, 11:22, 12:1; Acts 3:15, 5:31; Revelation 1:5), being Lord over His own house, whose house are we (Psalms 98:3; Hebrews 3:6; Jeremiah 31:33), who himself is the "elect" (Isaiah 42:1; Matthew 12:18; 1 Peter 2:6) of the Father, in whom all the promises of God find their realization (2 Corinthians 1:20). The promises made by God were all based upon condition (Exodus 19).

Mat 2:13-15, 19-21; Hos 11:1; Jer 31:33; Rom 9:6-8; Heb 2:13; Isa 8:16,18; Jhn 13:33, 16:33, 17:12, 18:9, 21:5; 1 Cor 15:46; 2 Cor 1:20; Gal 6:16; Heb 3:6, 8:8,10; Rev 3:21

'Israel' after the flesh, as a 'nation', is left desolate (Matthew 23:38; Luke 13:35), to bear no more fruit ever again (Matthew 21:19), cursed, withered away (Mark 11:21), dried up from the roots (Mark 11:20), "twice dead" (Jude 1:12), and the axe already laid at their root (Matthew 3:10; Luke 3:9), cut down and to be thrown into the fire.

Jesus alone fulfills Hosea 11:1. He is Israel, even as He is the real David, is the real Solomon, is the real Adam, etc.

Therefore, yes Jesus being Israel is also JEHOVAH of Hosts, the Son of JEHOVAH God the Father.

BroRando said:

Another trinitarian lie. Thomas never stated Jesus is God. You're misquoting as usual. Look into the Greek in what he said.

In answer Thomas said to him: “The Lord of me and the God of me!” (John 20:28) He doubted that Jesus Christ was resurrected. Also note "No man has seen God at any time;" (John 1:18) He never stated Jesus is God nor shouted You are God which is what trinitarians are trying to twist.

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Again, strawman of "trinitarians". Why not just address the texts and argument, rather than make an ad hominem?

Let's look at the text:

[12-E] My Lord and my God

John 20:26 KJB - And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.

John 20:27 KJB - Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

John 20:28 KJB - And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

John 20:29 KJB - Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

The texts of John 20:26-29 KJB are clear in their inspired [2 Timothy 3:16,17; 2 Peter 1:21 KJB] statements, and in the very witness [1 John 5:6-9 KJB] of the Apostle Thomas in regards Jesus Christ. He is, “Lord” and “God” of Thomas who, a moment before the revelation, had doubted. However, there are some which attempt to 'excuse' these words of Thomas by the following [these being the exact words]:

[1] Thomas was surprised when he saw the Lord in their midst. “My God!” was just an expression, a “statement of surprise.”

[2] Thomas was actually addressing both the Father [“My God”] and the Lord Jesus Christ [“My Lord”] when he said, “My Lord and my God.”

[3] It is not a teaching text (non-didactic text); actually Thomas made a mistake when he said, “My Lord and my God.”

[4] Thomas could have been saying my master and judge. The underlying koine Greek word 'theos' is generic and has many meanings and can mean 'judge'.

What is not represented as an answer, is the obvious, that Thomas actually believed in his affirmative statement that Jesus was indeed “... [his [possessive, 'my']] Lord and [his [possessive, 'my']] God”.

Consider the text itself:

John 20:28 KJB - And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

John 20:28 GNT - ἀπεκρίθη Θωμᾶς καὶ εἶπεν αὐτῷ· ὁ Κύριός μου καὶ ὁ Θεός μου.

While the King James Bible is perfect in the way English reads, the koine Greek itself undermines the 4 excuses, by reading, “ὁ Κύριός μου καὶ ὁ Θεός μου”, which in harsh English, reads, 'the Lord of me and the God of me'.

In fact, there is an Old Testament text which reads in a similar way, which will help us understand how to read the text:

Psalms 35:23 KJB - Stir up thyself, and awake to my judgment, even unto my cause, my God and my Lord.

Side note, in the so-called LXX [*Septuagint, the work of Origen in his Hexapla, not the work of 70 or 72 Jewish scholars from the twelve tribes, and definitely not written before AD 100].

Psalms 35:23 (34:23) LXX* - ἐξεγέρθητι, κύριε, καὶ πρόσχες τῇ κρίσει μου, ὁ θεός μου καὶ ὁ κύριός μου, εἰς τὴν δίκην μου.

The understanding is obvious, and the language, other than reversed, is the very same. It's like saying the phrase, "My Lord and my Saviour", or "My God and my Saviour." Both phrases refer to a single person being spoken of or to.

The very context of the John 20:28 KJB text is between Jesus and His doubting disciple. Jesus speaks to Thomas, and Thomas' statement [then of new found faith and belief] is directly in response and directed to Jesus Christ Himself because of His appearing after crucifixion, death and burial, now resurrected and alive.

John 20:26 KJB - And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.

John 20:27 KJB - Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

John 20:28 KJB - And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

John 20:29 KJB - Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

The words, “behold”, “faithless”, “believing”, “seen”, “believed”, “blessed are they that have not seen” and “believed” are directly connected to the statement of Thomas to Jesus and His appearing, and also related to the previous week, wherein Thomas had not been present with the others. Jesus is herein specifically designated the “Lord” and “God” of Thomas.

However, not to merely discount the 4 objections, let us now consider each one more closely:

[1] Thomas exclaimed in “surprise” unto “him” [Jesus; vs 26 - “Jesus”, vs 27 - “he”, “my”, “my”, vs 28 - “answered and said unto him”, vs 29 - “Jesus”], when he said, “... my God ...”!

This 'explanation' is that Thomas had an 'outburst', a sudden expression of surprise, likened unto when someone smashes their finger or is caught off guard, a knee-jerk reaction and is sometimes expressed in various translations with an exclamation point [!]. This argument is based upon a punctuation mark, which is not represented in the koine Greek, neither the English context, nor in several other various translations [which use a period [.] or even semi-colon [;], such as the ASV, Darby's, Douay Rheims, Noah Webster's, etc], including the King James Bible itself. Yet, even if the majority of translations utilized a period [.], semi-colon [;] or an exclamation point [!], it would not be proof, since truth is not confirmed by majority. Truth is self-confirming. Moreso, the koine Greek has no punctuation. Consider the following two examples of sentences, that even punctuation, whether a period [.] or exclamation point [!] would not alter the understanding:

[1] Sample:

“Jesus is the anointed King and Messiah.”

“... It is Jesus.”

Text:

“... My Lord and my God.”

Simply a true statement. A profession of that which is true.

[2] Sample:

“Jesus is the anointed King and Messiah!”

“... It is Jesus!”

Text:

“... My Lord and my God!”

An exclamation of the profound truth.

The question then becomes, “Which of the two sentences, whether period [.] or exclamation point [!], is saying anything that is not true in regards Jesus?” The answer is, “Neither.” Doctrinal understanding is never to be founded upon punctuation, but rather:

Isaiah 28:10 KJB - For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

Isaiah 8:20 KJB - To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

The text is not recorded in the same way as if anyone were to simply blurt out, “OUCH!” or “YEOW!”, which would be something that takes very little cognitive ability, but rather what Thomas says, if in exclamation, would be akin to anyone exclaiming “That really, really hurts and smarts!” Clear cognitive reasoning which is much more than that of simply “OW!”

However, there is no exclamation point here, but rather, Thomas “answered” [John 20:28 KJB] Jesus, whom had just spoken to him in John 20:27 KJB. Thomas formulates a complete and complex sentence in response unto Jesus, beginning with “My Lord”, adding unto it, “and”, finally finishing with, “my God.” This is a deep and complex thought formulated into words and not something 'right off of the top of the head'. This is not a 'knee-jerk' reaction, but rather total realization of who it was that stood before him resurrected.

[2] Thomas was actually addressing both the Father [“My God”] and the Lord Jesus Christ [“My Lord”] when he said, “My Lord and my God.”

This “explanation” directly overlooks the nearest immediate context and violates it. The nearest context and scripture reveals that, “And Thomas answered and said unto him ...”

Thomas was not addressing multiple individuals or persons in this passage. The “him” is singular and not plural:

John 20:28 GNT-TR+ - καιG2532 CONJ απεκριθηG611 V-ADI-3S οG3588 T-NSM θωμαςG2381 N-NSM καιG2532 CONJ ειπενG3004 V-2AAI-3S αυτωG846 P-DSM οG3588 T-NSM κυριοςG2962 N-NSM μουG1473 P-1GS καιG2532 CONJ οG3588 T-NSM θεοςG2316 N-NSM μουG1473 P-1GS

The “him” is the singular person, Jesus [vs 26 - “Jesus”, vs 27 - “he”, “my”, “my”, vs 28 - “answered and said unto him”, vs 29 - “Jesus”] who had just spoken to Thomas. Thomas “answered” Jesus, and this means to respond to something said, done, etc, just as Jesus had “answered” the devil in the wilderness, or an echo in “answering”.

Wrangler said:

So am I.
Let me ask you this; if Jesus were God, why is God and Jesus referred to as separate beings so many times? For instance, why does the resurrected Jesus say he has not yet gone to his God in John 20:17? Why does Jesus say his Father is the only true God in John 17:3?

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NONE of that says Jesus is not God!

Matthew 13:41 (NKJV)
41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness,

Jesus is God!

BroRando said:

Another trinitarian lie. Thomas never stated Jesus is God. You're misquoting as usual. Look into the Greek in what he said.

In answer Thomas said to him: “The Lord of me and the God of me!” (John 20:28) He doubted that Jesus Christ was resurrected. Also note "No man has seen God at any time;" (John 1:18) He never stated Jesus is God nor shouted You are God which is what trinitarians are trying to twist.

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Continuing:

[3] It is not a teaching text (non-didactic text); actually Thomas made a mistake when he said, “My Lord and my God.”

The first part of this “explanation” ignores the following text:

2 Timothy 3:16 KJB - All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

All of scripture is teaching text, especially when the Holy Spirit is the teacher.

The second part of the “explanation” ignores other texts in which Jesus immediately censors and/or rebukes the disciples for saying, thinking, and/or doing foolish things and/or transgressing God's Law:

Matthew 16:23 KJB - But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

Matthew 17:25 KJB - He saith, Yes. And when he was come into the house, Jesus prevented him, saying, What thinkest thou, Simon? of whom do the kings of the earth take custom or tribute? of their own children, or of strangers?

Matthew 26:52 KJB - Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

Matthew 26:53 KJB - Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?

Mark 8:33 KJB - But when he had turned about and looked on his disciples, he rebuked Peter, saying, Get thee behind me, Satan: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but the things that be of men.

Mark 14:6 KJB - And Jesus said, Let her alone; why trouble ye her? she hath wrought a good work on me.

Luke 24:25 KJB - Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:

John 12:7 KJB - Then said Jesus, Let her alone: against the day of my burying hath she kept this.

John 12:8 KJB - For the poor always ye have with you; but me ye have not always.

If Thomas had actually blasphemed [scripture deals with our speech, Matthew 5:19; Colossians 4:6; Titus 2:8, etc. KJB] in this instance, he would have received serious rebuke from Jesus who loved Him, as it is written:

Leviticus 19:17 KJB - Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.

Leviticus 19:18 KJB - Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

Jesus also directly and immediately rebuked the devil:

Matthew 4:10 KJB - Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

Luke 4:8 KJB - And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

Yet, Jesus receives worship in numerous places:

Exodus 3:2 KJB - And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.

Exodus 3:3 KJB - And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt.

Exodus 3:4 KJB - And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I.

Exodus 3:5 KJB - And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground.

Exodus 3:6 KJB - Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.

Acts 7:33 KJB - Then said the Lord to him, Put off thy shoes from thy feet: for the place where thou standest is holy ground.

Joshua 5:15 KJB - And the captain of the LORD'S host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so.

[4] Thomas could have been saying my master and judge. The underlying koine Greek word 'theos' is generic and has many meanings and can mean 'judge'.

This “explanation” undercuts itself from the beginning by saying, “... could have been ...”, which is entirely unfounded conjecture, as the text reads, “My Lord and my God.”

However, let us consider the second portion in fairness, and give the benefit, in spite of the doubt.

The English word “God” [John 20:28 KJB], is translated from the koine Greek [G2316] “θεός”, “theos”. It is not once translated “judge” in all of the King James Bible in 1344 times. However, in John 10:35 KJB, it is translated “gods” [lowercase], being a reference to an OT passage [Psalms 82 KJB]:

Psalms 82:1 KJB - A Psalm of Asaph. God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.

Psalms 82:2 KJB - How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.

Psalms 82:3 KJB - Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.

Psalms 82:4 KJB - Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.

Psalms 82:5 KJB - They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.

Psalms 82:6 KJB - I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

Psalms 82:7 KJB - But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.

Psalms 82:8 KJB - Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.

This passage is speaking about the unjust rulers of Israel, the unjust judges, the corrupt leaders, “princes”. God Himself is the chief judge. Reconsider John 20:28 KJB in that light then.

Genesis 18:25 KJB - That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

Psalms 50:6 KJB - And the heavens shall declare his righteousness: for God is judge himself. Selah.

Psalms 75:7 KJB - But God is the judge: he putteth down one, and setteth up another.

Psalms 82:8 KJB - Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.

Ecclesiastes 3:17 KJB - I said in mine heart, God shall judge the righteous and the wicked: for there is a time there for every purpose and for every work.

Ecclesiastes 12:14 KJB - For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

Romans 3:6 KJB - God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world?

Hebrews 12:23 KJB - To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

Hebrews 13:4 KJB - Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.

God is Judge. Jesus is our, and Thomas', Judge and God:

Romans 14:10 KJB - But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

2 Corinthians 5:10 KJB - For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

John 8:16 KJB - And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.

John 5:22 KJB - For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

Revelation 14:7 KJB - Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

Compare: Genesis 2:2-3; Exodus 20:8-11; John 14:15; Exodus 20:6; Colossians 1:16-17, John 1:3, etc. KJB

As stated before, the only “explanation” not given, is the one which is plainly given in the English text of the King James Bible. Jesus is the Lord and God of Thomas; Jesus is my Lord and God [.!] Is He your Lord and God? If not, consider carefully:

John 8:24 KJB - I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

Amen.

BroRando said:

The very same title was given to Moses who many people HAVE SEEN. "And the Lord said to Moses: Behold I have appointed thee the God of Pharao: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet." (Exodus 7:1) Does that make Moses God? The answer is in the negative. Why? "No man has seen God at any time;" (John 1:18)

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The context of John 1:18 is a reference to the Person/Being of the Father, not the Son, even as John makes this clear in a parallel text:

Joh_6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

So, the text of John 1:18 does not mean that no man on earth has never seen God on earth. It refers to the Father (God), for the Son (God), was seen many times on earth, as the 'visible' ('manifest') JEHOVAH, representing His Father the invisible JEHOVAH (not seen on earth) in Heaven.

BroRando said:

The Word of God appeared to Moses in the burning bush. Yet the scriptures state that Moses spoke with God face to face. Since "No man has seen God at any time;" (John 1:18) The Word of God is Not God himself but the Chief Messenger of the true God. "Then Jehovah’s angel appeared to him in a flame of fire in the midst of a thornbush. As he kept looking, he saw that the thornbush was on fire, and yet the thornbush was not consumed. (Exodus 3:2)

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Again see John 6:46 in connection to John 1:18. Yes, Jesus is the "Angel of the LORD" in Exodus, but read more carefully therein, and you will see that He is also identified as the JEHOVAH of Hosts standing on the earth, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, who was the highest messenger of His Father, JEHOVAH God in Heaven.

Other texts are just as clear that God was indeed seen (not the Father on earth, but the Son, JEHOVAH of Hosts):

Gen_32:30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

Exo_3:6 Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.

etc.

Wrangler said:

this one verse cannot supersede

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Who said anything about superceding? Why not consider it is complimentary instead, meaning both (singulars and plurals) are to be understood and considered when addressing the nature of Deity as provided in scripture? To merely consider the singular and to brush aside the plurals (even if there is a majority of one over the other), is unfair to the texts and evidences. It would be like the singular demoniac in one gospel, and yet two demoniacs in another. Is one to supercede the other, and one brushed aside? No, both are considered together, and studied and found in harmony together.

Wrangler said:

LOL. Another sad trinitarian Appeal to Dualism.

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Appeal to strawman. I have said probably over 9 times now, I am not "trinitarian", nor advocating that heresy. Scripture teaches the eternal heavenly Trio.

The Son has two natures, even as Philippians, etc., says:

Php 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Php 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Php 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Php 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Php 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
Php 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
Php 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

1Ti_3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Act 20:27 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.
Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
Joh 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
Joh 1:6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
Joh 1:7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
Joh 1:8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
Joh 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
Joh 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Joh 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Joh 1:15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.
Joh 1:16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.
Joh 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Heb 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
Heb 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

Gal_4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

Again, humanity died, not divinity. How can God (Person/Being of the Son) shed blood? He first had to take upon Himself the nature of mankind, the form of a servant. Then it is possible (for with God all things are possible). Where then was the "Lord" in death? The Bible tells us plainly. In the tomb at rest on Sabbath.

Mat_28:6 He is not here: for he is risen, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay.

Wrangler said:

Jesus does not even have the authority to decide who sits next to him. See Matthew 20:23. Not all powerful. Not God almighty.

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See Philippians 2. The Son gave up (laid it aside, not using) something to rely upon the Father by the Holy Ghost.

Mat 20:23 And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.

Context? The Wedding of the Son, and the Father always sets the places for the guests.

Yes, Jesus is "Almighty", but He also always honours His Father (Exodus 20:12).

Mat_28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

"all power" is literally "All mighty, All authority"

The Son stood by Abraham:

Gen_17:1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.

Gen_22:14 And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the LORD it shall be seen.

Joh 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
Joh 8:57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
Joh 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

The Son stood by Jacob/Israel after the flesh:

Gen_48:3 And Jacob said unto Joseph, God Almighty appeared unto me at Luz in the land of Canaan, and blessed me,

The Son stood by Moses:

Exo_6:3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.

The Son cannot be found out:

Job_37:23 Touching the Almighty, we cannot find him out: he is excellent in power, and in judgment, and in plenty of justice: he will not afflict.
Joh 21:25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

Isa_13:6 Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.

1Co_1:8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
1Co_5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
2Co_1:14 As also ye have acknowledged us in part, that we are your rejoicing, even as ye also are ours in the day of the Lord Jesus.
Php_1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

ReChoired said:

See Philippians 2.

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Yea, let’s pretend there is no proof Jesus is not God.

1 Corinthians 12:
6 And there are DIVERSITY'S of operations........but it is the SAME God which worketh all in all.

Jesus' purpose was (as being predestined from the foundations of this earth age) in placing the "diversity of operations" or government of this SAME God? BACK under ONE "Banner!"
NOT under one talmud!
In this verse Paul was giving "whosoever believed in Christ?"
An insight!
Not ONLY of the "working/s of the Holy Spirit!"
But, also the structure of the Kingdom!

kcnalp said:

NONE of that says Jesus is not God!

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It all says Jesus is not God!

1. Logic
2. Definition
3. Language Usage

Consider the sentence, "I asked a girl out on a date." It means the 'girl' is not the same being as 'I.' The same with sentences where Jesus and God are identified as separate beings. If a person was raised from the dead by God does not mean that person and God are 2 different beings, then there is no application of logic, definition or language usage. Therefore, you also cannot prove Jesus is God.

ReChoired said:

Appeal to strawman. I have said probably over 9 times now, I am not "trinitarian"

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The great philosopher Forest Gump taught us that 'Stupid is as stupid does.'

It does not matter what you call yourself, only that you invoke the idea of the ism ... I have said probably over 9 times now, I am not a fan. I just watch all the Boston Red Sox games, attend home games, buy many Red Sox items and talk about the Boston Red Sox a lot.

ReChoired said:

The Son has two natures

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Dualism. Rejected out of hand.

ReChoired said:

Again, humanity died, not divinity.

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Nope. Just a man died. Not sure how you reach concepts died when only a man died. It's so odd.

Robert Derrick, I have enjoyed your thread. Good work, brother. And cooper too, good work.

Wrangler said:

Let me ask you this; if Jesus were God, why is God and Jesus referred to as separate beings so many times? For instance, why does the resurrected Jesus say he has not yet gone to his God in John 20:17? Why does Jesus say his Father is the only true God in John 17:3.

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It's so funny how advocates for the proposition just ignore these questions and Scriptural verses. They just ask their own question and divert attention with other verses.

Dualists ignore logic, definition and language usage because it defeats their assertions every time. HINT: Assertion is not proof. If the plural "our" in GE 1:26 is important, the singular pronoun "me" in the 1C must be even more important - as well as the 1,000's of times God is referred to using singular pronouns. God put this commandment 1st and I cannot think of a better reason for the 2C than the 4th century man-made idol of trinitarianism.

To prove Jesus is God would contradict much of Scripture. Not just the OT but many verses in the NT, including the many times Jesus' God is referred to:

• John 20:17
• 1 Corinthians 8:6
• 2 Corinthians 1:3; 11:31
• Ephesians 1:3, 7, 17
• Colossians 1:3
• 1 Peter 1:3
• Revelations 3

Trinitarians generally ignore these verses. If they don't they have to resort to absurd appeals to dualism that is as bizarre and ridiculous as it is total nonsense. One poster even said the trinity is the most important aspect of the Bible, believing that Jesus is God is the most important part of the Bible despite the fact that no such verse exists. Amazing. Absolutely amazing to devote oneself to what is not there! There is only one God and that is Jesus' God.

Wrangler said:

It all says Jesus is not God!

1. Logic
2. Definition
3. Language Usage

Consider the sentence, "I asked a girl out on a date." It means the 'girl' is not the same being as 'I.' The same with sentences where Jesus and God are identified as separate beings. If a person was raised from the dead by God does not mean that person and God are 2 different beings, then there is no application of logic, definition or language usage. Therefore, you also cannot prove Jesus is God.

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John 5
21 For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will.

Amen Jesus, You are God!

kcnalp said:

John 5
21 For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will.

Amen Jesus, You are God!

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God with us.
.