'Holiness' Christians

robert derrick · May 16, 2021

"And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness." (Eph 4)

Since there is a righteousness and true holiness of God, there must also be a self-righteousness and false holiness of man.

The worst thing a 'believer' can do is to put themselves forth as 'holier than' 'better than' 'more loving than' 'more consecrated to God' than God Himself.

They would make the narrow way narrower, and the straight gate straighter.

The main reason the religious leaders of the day had Jesus Crucified, was because He was not conforming to their religious rules of conduct. Rather by continually quoting Scripture He was exposing their religious rule of carnal ordinances over the believers, as made up and false traditions and commandments, that not only were added to Scripture, but also worked against God's will in Scripture.

"But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men." (Matthew 15) (Mark 7)

"Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye." (Mark 7)

2 Questions: Why do 'Christians' try to be more 'holiness' in their lifestyles than God ever said to be, and how does that happen?

No one wakes up one morning and decides to try and outdo God and other believers, yet it happens with 'holiness Christians', and it began with Lucifer:

"I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High." (Isaiah 14)

Amazed@grace · May 16, 2021

robert derrick said:
"And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness." (Eph 4)

Since there is a righteousness and true holiness of God, there must also be a self-righteousness and false holiness of man.

I don't believe you'll find that if you read all of Ephesians 4.
Maybe read the full chapter for context. And pay particular attention to:
22 You were taught with reference to your former way of life to lay aside the old man who is being corrupted in accordance with deceitful desires, 23 to be renewed in the spirit of your mind, 24 and to put on the new man who has been created in God’s image—in righteousness and holiness that comes from truth.

Hidden In Him · May 16, 2021

robert derrick said:
The main reason the religious leaders of the day had Jesus Crucified, was because He was not conforming to their religious rules of conduct. Rather by continually quoting Scripture He was exposing their religious rule of carnal ordinances over the believers, as made up and false traditions and commandments, that not only were added to Scripture, but also worked against God's will in Scripture.

"But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men." (Matthew 15) (Mark 7)

"Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye." (Mark 7)

I'm puzzled, Robert Derrick. You are making the commandment to holiness a tradition on men? Paul taught in 2nd Corinthians, saying, "Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God."

Are you saying this verse was added to scripture and works against God's will? I don't understand.

marks · May 17, 2021

Hidden In Him said:
I'm puzzled, Robert Derrick. You are making the commandment to holiness a tradition on men? Paul taught in 2nd Corinthians, saying, "Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God."

Are you saying this verse was added to scripture and works against God's will? I don't understand.

It sounds to me that he's speaking against hypocracy.

Much love!

Hidden In Him · May 17, 2021

marks said:
It sounds to me that he's speaking against hypocracy.

Much love!

Yes, only in doing so he is in effect dismissing holiness, as if it is something to be held in derision if a Christian speaks out about the importance of walking in it. His statements were as follows:

"But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men." (Matthew 15) (Mark 7)
"Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye." (Mark 7)

...Why do 'Christians' try to be more 'holiness' in their lifestyles than God ever said to be, and how does that happen?"

So let me ask you: How can they be "trying to be more holiness in their lifestyles than God ever said to be" if Paul said, "Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God."

Hidden In Him · May 17, 2021

Hidden In Him said:
...Why do 'Christians' try to be more 'holiness' in their lifestyles than God ever said to be, and how does that happen?"

You see, I am apparently one of the ones Robert Derrick is talking about, and by putting the word "Christians" in quotes here, he is coming awfully close to saying I am not one. And he is in effect attacking holiness in the process of trying to denounce hypocrisy.

theQuestioneer · May 17, 2021

Does he who doesn't know God nor Christ- have GOD'S SPIRIT?

Hidden In Him · May 17, 2021

theQuestioneer said:
Does he who doesn't know God nor Christ- have GOD'S SPIRIT?

Again, we shouldn't let the conversation devolve into whether or not I know Christ, LoL. I can assure you I do, but where would such a conversation lead? It's based on an accusation. I was interested in discuss the scriptures with you, but if this is not the direction things are going, I understand.

I should probably sign off at this point. God bless, and thanks again. An interesting discussion while it lasted.

Blessings, and welcome to Christianity Board,
HiH

P.S. I just noticed I am confusing this thread with the other one we were having, LoL! So maybe nix the part about the accusation. This post of yours may not have even been directed to me (you should quote people so we know, btw). But I do believe in discussion the Scriptures on issues, so that part will have to stick.

God bless,
- H

JazzyJeff15 · May 17, 2021

robert derrick said:
"And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness." (Eph 4)

Since there is a righteousness and true holiness of God, there must also be a self-righteousness and false holiness of man.

The worst thing a 'believer' can do is to put themselves forth as 'holier than' 'better than' 'more loving than' 'more consecrated to God' than God Himself.

They would make the narrow way narrower, and the straight gate straighter.

The main reason the religious leaders of the day had Jesus Crucified, was because He was not conforming to their religious rules of conduct. Rather by continually quoting Scripture He was exposing their religious rule of carnal ordinances over the believers, as made up and false traditions and commandments, that not only were added to Scripture, but also worked against God's will in Scripture.

"But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men." (Matthew 15) (Mark 7)

"Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye." (Mark 7)

2 Questions: Why do 'Christians' try to be more 'holiness' in their lifestyles than God ever said to be, and how does that happen?

No one wakes up one morning and decides to try and outdo God and other believers, yet it happens with 'holiness Christians', and it began with Lucifer:

"I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High." (Isaiah 14)

Great post, self rightousness is a big problem within the Christian community. This should be taught often at churches. The bible also does seem to condemn greed and pride more then any other sins

marks · May 17, 2021

Hidden In Him said:
Yes, only in doing so he is in effect dismissing holiness, as if it is something to be held in derision if a Christian speaks out about the importance of walking in it. His statements were as follows:

"But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men." (Matthew 15) (Mark 7)
"Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye." (Mark 7)

...Why do 'Christians' try to be more 'holiness' in their lifestyles than God ever said to be, and how does that happen?"

So let me ask you: How can they be "trying to be more holiness in their lifestyles than God ever said to be" if Paul said, "Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God."

I see that I've stumbled into a longer running dispute, and I don't know the history.

Much love!

robert derrick · May 17, 2021

Hidden In Him said:
I'm puzzled, Robert Derrick. You are making the commandment to holiness a tradition on men? Paul taught in 2nd Corinthians, saying, "Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God."

Are you saying this verse was added to scripture and works against God's will? I don't understand.

You're puzzlement is based on not understanding the difference between the true holiness of God and the false holiness of men. If there is a 'true' something from God, then you can count on it, that the devil will come up with a 'false' one from himself.

'Holiness living' is distinctly built upon the outward and carnal ordinances of God (Heb 9:10), that should separate His people outwardly from that of the world. It is His outward sanctification of behavior, dress, lifestyle ,etc... that demonstrates the inward sanctification to Him of the heart.

"Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you." (2 Cor 6)

Since there are still in fact carnal ordinances of God: points of Law of Christ (James 2), that God commands us to conform to in our daily living, then the devil takes opportunity to add to them, even as he did with the Old Covenant.

Ex: The commandment of the Sabbath was not to work. Simple. Don't conduct business that is reserved for the other 6 days, even as God created the heaven and the earth in 6 days and rested on the 7th. Nehemiah was a great example of enforcing this basic commandment upon God's people.

Along the way somewhere, somehow the priestly leaders of Jesus' day, had certain 'details' to the Law of the Sabbath added (sort of filling in the blanks), that they said constituted 'work': No rubbing ears of corn together. No healing. And today they have added even more ridiculous 'details' of law: don't travel over 2 miles...Jesus NEVER violated the Sabbath according to the commandment of God written in the Law of Moses. He only 'violated' the detailed traditions and commandments of men put forth as Law of Moses. (Matthew 17)

True 'holiness living' of God in Christ Jesus is written plainly in the Scriptures of the New Covenant even as it was in the Law of Moses under the Old Covenant, and yet Christians continue to do to the Law of Christ, what the Jews did to the Law of Moses: to add their own details or points of Law to that which God says is for all believers to obey. They make themselves 'Lawgivers' of detailed and itemized instruction (James 4). I.e. so-called outward 'holiness standards' of dress and conduct that all real Christians ought to obey.

Such details specifically include manners of dress: Scripture tells us to dress "in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array" (1 Tim 2)

This is an outward 'holiness standard' of God for all His people to obey, who are sanctified inwardly by His Spirit. A proper sense of reading is: Don't display yourselves with nudity in public, and don't overdo your dress to draw attention to yourself. Dress modestly with sober mindedness according to the occasion at hand. (Which does not include nudist colonies and beaches)

The super-holiness Christians begin to add 'details' of compliance to this very plain and simple outwardly sanctified principle of God, even as they did of the law of the Sabbath. And so, they begin to declare as Scripture common rules in public for all Christians to obey, such as: Men not wear shorts nor t-shirts outside. Women not wear pants. Women cut not their hair at all. No card playing. No gambling. No drinking. No movie watching. No this, no that, and no the other...which is exactly what we are warned against doing in the body of Christ: making up our own rules of conformity to the holy principle that is actually written, and then declaring them as the commanded details thereof for all:

"Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances (of men)(Touch not; taste not; handle not; Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men? Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men?" (Col 2)

Simply put: anyone telling you that as a true holiness Christian who would be holy as He is holy (1 Peter 1:15-16), that you thus ought not be doing this, that, or the other, and ought be doing this, that, and the other, and yet such this, that, and the other are not specifically written for us to read plainly for ourselves: is a liar. A false teacher. A proselytizer of their own faith. These are they that are pushing details of law and commandments of men upon other believers, and thus seeking to dominate your faith and life in Christ Jesus, rather than help you in your walk with Him personally:

"Not for that we have dominion over your faith, but are helpers of your for by faith ye stand." (2 Cor 1:24)

The modern 'holiness Christians' that stand out apart from the rest of the Christians, in addition to being properly apart from the world, which began with the Methodist 'holiness movement' in the 1800's under John Wesley, and was doubled-down own during the 'pentecostal movement' of the early 1900's, are in fact the ones guilty of Jesus' rebuke to the 'holiness' Pharisees of his day:

"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves." (Matthew 23)

Bottom line: how do we as faithfully, sincere, and from the heart believers and lovers of Jesus, know the difference between God's rule of law, both inward and outward, vs man's? It is as simple as between that which is written and that which is not:

"These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so." (Acts 17)

In matters of faith and of doctrine and especially of Law, we must be more like the Bereans and less like the automatically believin' and behavin'.

robert derrick · May 17, 2021

marks said:
It sounds to me that he's speaking against hypocracy.

Much love!

Not so much hypocrisy, which is to say one thing and do another, but rather as makers of Christians rules to live by, that God never says.

In the end, they will be hypocrites like all despots, because they that make up rules for others to obey, will not keep them themselves.

marks · May 17, 2021

robert derrick said:
Not so much hypocrisy, which is to say one thing and do another, but rather as makers of Christians rules to live by, that God never says.

In the end, they will be hypocrites like all despots, because they that make up rules for others to obey, will not keep them themselves.

What sorts of rules do you have in mind?

Much love!

robert derrick · May 17, 2021

Hidden In Him said:
Yes, only in doing so he is in effect dismissing holiness, as if it is something to be held in derision if a Christian speaks out about the importance of walking in it. His statements were as follows:

So let me ask you: How can they be "trying to be more holiness in their lifestyles than God ever said to be" if Paul said, "Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God."

I no more try to do away with the holiness standard of God, than Paul tried to do away with the Law of God, but rather to establish the true holiness of God found in Scripture vs the false holiness of men found only in their own minds. (Numbers 16:22)

The definition of outward cleansing is by Scripture, because the definition of filthiness of the flesh is likewise by Scripture.

The only problem is when certain law-making believers begin to add their own definitions of 'filthiness of the flesh' to that which is written, and so command certain outward cleansing proofs of compliance. These are the 'holiness commandments' of men vs the holy written standard of God.

While we do not live by a list of do's and dont's, because we live by the faith of Jesus, yet there certainly is a specifically written list of don'ts, that God commands us not to do as Christians, lest we be found transgressors of the Law of Christ (James 2):

"Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." (Gal 5) (And the list goes on in other places of Scripture)

These are called carnal ordinances (Heb 9:10): rules governing the outward behavior befitting those inwardly saved and sanctified by the Spirit: I.e. Holiness standards of God.

They which are written are legitimately to be avoided by all believers. But any other specific details of 'holiness standards' preached and pushed and promoted by man are not of God, because they are not written by God for all of us to obey.

There is a righteous living and true holiness standard of God written for all believers to conform to in this world, and then there is a self-righteous and false holiness standard of man not written for all other believers to conform to as well.

People preaching and teaching and ministering that which is not written, as though it were, is the one cause for division and animosity toward one another in the church and body of Christ.

Whether it be forbidding to marry, to drink, to eat meat, to dress in shorts, to cut the woman's hair at all, to worship the perpetual virgin and mother 'Mary', to worship Jehovah only and not the created being Jesus: it is all the same made up filthy and pernicious garbage of man by the devil's devices of seductive deceit and pride.

"They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind. (Jerem 19:5)

When will innocent and faithful Christians finally realize that it was not those that declared 'free sex' and licentious riotous living, that had the Lord crucified, but them that condemned Him as not holiness enough according to their made up rules. Though they knew He was from god (John 3), they refused Him as the promised Messiah, because He was not conforming to their standards of holiness living, that they had all the good believing people bound and burdened by.

"For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers." (Matthew 23)

I speak, even as Paul, as one of them that was a leader among them. In the name of 'holiness living' I was helping to destroy the faith of Jesus in others by dominating their faith with our holiness rules. I was a Pentecost of the Pentecosts. But now, as Paul, simply a little sheep of His flock. And thank God for it.

Hidden In Him · May 17, 2021

robert derrick said:
You're puzzlement is based on not understanding the difference between the true holiness of God and the false holiness of men. If there is a 'true' something from God, then you can count on it, that the devil will come up with a 'false' one from himself.

'Holiness living' is distinctly built upon the outward and carnal ordinances of God (Heb 9:10), that should separate His people outwardly from that of the world. It is His outward sanctification of behavior, dress, lifestyle ,etc... that demonstrates the inward sanctification to Him of the heart.

"Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you." (2 Cor 6)

Since there are still in fact carnal ordinances of God: points of Law of Christ (James 2), that God commands us to conform to in our daily living, then the devil takes opportunity to add to them, even as he did with the Old Covenant.

Ex: The commandment of the Sabbath was not to work. Simple. Don't conduct business that is reserved for the other 6 days, even as God created the heaven and the earth in 6 days and rested on the 7th. Nehemiah was a great example of enforcing this basic commandment upon God's people.

Along the way somewhere, somehow the priestly leaders of Jesus' day, had certain 'details' to the Law of the Sabbath added (sort of filling in the blanks), that they said constituted 'work': No rubbing ears of corn together. No healing. And today they have added even more ridiculous 'details' of law: don't travel over 2 miles...Jesus NEVER violated the Sabbath according to the commandment of God written in the Law of Moses. He only 'violated' the detailed traditions and commandments of men put forth as Law of Moses. (Matthew 17)

True 'holiness living' of God in Christ Jesus is written plainly in the Scriptures of the New Covenant even as it was in the Law of Moses under the Old Covenant, and yet Christians continue to do to the Law of Christ, what the Jews did to the Law of Moses: to add their own details or points of Law to that which God says is for all believers to obey. They make themselves 'Lawgivers' of detailed and itemized instruction (James 4). I.e. so-called outward 'holiness standards' oi dress and conduct that all real Christians ought to obey.

Such details specifically include manners of dress: Scripture tells us to dress "in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array" (1 Tim 2)

This is an outward 'holiness standard' of God for all His people who are sanctified inwardly by His Spirit. A proper sense of reading is: Don't display yourselves with nudity in public, and don't overdo your dress to draw attention to yourself. Dress modestly with sober mindedness according to the occasion at hand. (Which does not include nudist colonies and beaches)

The super-holiness Christians begin to add 'details' of compliance to this very plain and simple outwardly sanctified principle of God, even as they did of the law of the Sabbath. And so, they begin to declare as Scripture common rules in public for all Christians to obey, such as: Men not wear shorts nor t-shirts outside. Women not wear pants. Women cut not their hair at all. No card playing. No gambling. No drinking. No movie watching. No this, no that, and no the other...which is exactly what we are warned against doing in the body of Christ: making up our onw rules of conformity to the holy principle that is actually written, and then declaring them as the commanded details thereof for all:

"Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances (of men)(Touch not; taste not; handle not; Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men? Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men?" (Col 2)

Simply put: anyone telling you that as a true holiness Christian who would be holy as He is holy (1 Peter 1:15-16), then you ought not be doing this, that, or the other. And yet such things are not specifically written for us to read plainly for ourselves. These are they that are pushing details of law and commandment of men upon other believers, and thus seeking to dominate your faith and life, rather than help you in your walk with Christ.

"Not for that we have dominion over your faith, but are helpers of your for by faith ye stand." (2 Cor 1:24)

The modern 'holiness Christians' that stand out apart from the rest of the Christians, in addition to being properly apart from the world, which began with the Methodist 'holiness movement' in the 1800's under John Wesley, and was doubled-down own during the 'pentecostal movement' of the early 1900's, are in fact the ones guilty of Jesus' rebuke to the 'holiness' Pharisees pf proselytizing:

"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves." (Matthew 23)

Bottom line: how do we as faithfully sincere from the heart believers and lovers of Jesus, know the difference between God's rule of law, inward and outward vs man's? It is as simple as between that which is written and that which is not:

"These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so." (Acts 17)

In matter of faith and of doctrine and especially of Law, we must be more like Bereans and less like automatically behavin'.

Well that was a very impressive post! Thanks for sharing.

About this section here, go into a little more detail for me. I'm somewhat familiar with the Methodist movement, but not when it comes to strictness with regard to things like dress code.

The modern 'holiness Christians' that stand out apart from the rest of the Christians, in addition to being properly apart from the world, which began with the Methodist 'holiness movement' in the 1800's under John Wesley, and was doubled-down own during the 'pentecostal movement' of the early 1900's, are in fact the ones guilty of Jesus' rebuke to the 'holiness' Pharisees pf proselytizing.

Thanks again,
- H

Hidden In Him · May 17, 2021

robert derrick said:
Whether it be forbidding to marry, to drink, to eat meat, to dress in shorts, to cut the woman's hair at al

Now, let me say this: The problem I see with most churches that do not take a "legalistic" stance like you are saying is that unfortunately they instead become very lax - TOO lax in their standards of dress and conduct - by not spelling things out for the people... Do you agree that this is equally a problem? I don't see setting hard and fast rules as the answer, because as you say, then you are subjecting people back under law when the law should be written on their hearts and they should be free to serve in newness of Spirit.

But how do you think the natural tendency of carnal Christians to exploit the freedoms we are supposed to have in Christ should be dealt with? I'm presuming through teaching and instruction, correct?

robert derrick · May 17, 2021

JazzyJeff15 said:
Great post, self rightousness is a big problem within the Christian community. This should be taught often at churches. The bible also does seem to condemn greed and pride more then any other sins

Another thing that ought be proclaimed loudly and often is that ministry begins in the home. Not just prayer and Bible reading, but ministry.

"And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up." (Deut 6)

In the modern age of single-speaker assemblies, and 'going to church' is the sole place of ministry, there are very few if any who would actually declare that ministry begins in the home, lest their 'attendance record' falls short...

"For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them." (Matthew 18)

The strong Christian church begins in strong Christian homes, where ministry begins.

The proper conduct for when we are all gathered together in one place is in ! Cor 14.

dev553344 · May 17, 2021

Hidden In Him said:
Now, let me say this: The problem I see with most churches that do not take a "legalistic" stance like you are saying is that unfortunately they instead become very lax - TOO lax in their standards of dress and conduct - by not spelling things out for the people... Do you agree that this is equally a problem? I don't see setting hard and fast rules as the answer, because as you say, then you are subjecting people back under law when the law should be written on their hearts and they should be free to serve in newness of Spirit.

But how do you think the natural tendency of carnal Christians to exploit the freedoms we are supposed to have in Christ should be dealt with? I'm presuming through teaching and instruction, correct?

There are definitely holiness standards for Bishops and Deacons, and we are commanded to obey Christ's teachings and follow him.

1 Timothy 3:2-12

King James Version

2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;

4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;

5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)

6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.

7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

8 Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;

9 Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.

10 And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless.

11 Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.

12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.

Hidden In Him · May 17, 2021

Devin Wintch said:
There are definitely holiness standards for Bishops and Deacons, and we are commanded to obey Christ's teachings and follow him.

1 Timothy 3:2-12

King James Version

2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;

4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;

5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)

6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.

7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

8 Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;

9 Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.

10 And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless.

11 Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.

12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.

That's a good point, IMO.

robert derrick · May 17, 2021

Hidden In Him said:
Now, let me say this: The problem I see with most churches that do not take a "legalistic" stance like you are saying is that unfortunately they instead become very lax - TOO lax in their standards of dress and conduct - by not spelling things out for the people... Do you agree that this is equally a problem? I don't see setting hard and fast rules as the answer, because as you say, then you are subjecting people back under law when the law should be written on their hearts and they should be free to serve in newness of Spirit.

But how do you think the natural tendency of carnal Christians to exploit the freedoms we are supposed to have in Christ should be dealt with? I'm presuming through teaching and instruction, correct?

My initial response is: so what? What is that to thee? follow thou me. (John 21)

Far better to let others err on the side of 'less than', than to try and force a 'more than' upon them. The former is to 'live and let live' and answer to God for ourselves, but the latter is far more pernicious and destructive, which is to try and dominate and despotically brow-beat people into submission...

However, I do truly love your question, because it is sincere and truly perplexing.

I can only say, from personal experience and from Scripture, that it is far better and proper to preach only that which is written, and then allow one another to work out our own salvation for ourselves.

We are called to be our brother's keeper, not our brother's dominator.

That is what antichrist does:

"And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer." (Rev 6)

A clue to all this is in the understanding of the proper role of the minister in the ministry of Christ, which is learned from Ezekiel:

"And he said unto me, Son of man, go, get thee unto the house of Israel, and speak with my words unto them. But the house of Israel will not hearken unto thee; for they will not hearken unto me: for all the house of Israel are impudent and hardhearted." (Ezekiel 3)

The calling of God is to preach only that which he has said and written. We will be rewarded or reprimanded for that, and that alone. And there is no promise that the hearers will believe and obey.

It is not the preacher's 'job' to expect nor to get anyone to do anything. They are not our people nor is it our church. We never ever grow beyond being just another member of His body. We are to be an example of the faith, not try to be the example of the faith. That is reserved for Jesus only.

Faith and obedience to the faith must come from the heart of the hearer that God Himself may bless, and we have no part nor place in that, because only He gives the increase, not we ourselves as ministers of the gospel of Christ.

I.e. We can pray for others, and we can try to help others who ask, but we cannot and must not try to account for the decisions of others in their own lives, which is their special right as individuals before God. As ministers of God and fellow hearers of the Gospel, when it comes to what others are preaching and others are doing, we must learn to mind our own business at the right time and place, lest we become busybodies in the affairs of others. (1 Peter 4)

I have 2 questions:

1. What place, as fellow ministers and witnesses and saints in the body of Christ, when it comes to serving others do we have in the carry-out pizza business of the Father?

2. Is the Father's business the 'people business'?

'Holiness' Christians

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