mailmandan
Well-Known Member
Jesus explanation lines up with my explanation...period. You just don't have ears to hear. What did Jesus say in (John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26) Nothing there about salvation by works either.
Forgiveness is to those who keep the commandments of the Lord.
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TheslightestID
Active Member
Yes, faith without works is dead, and salvation is obtaioned by faith, as in believing in God, plus works, not your tricky comment that purposely, and conveniently left out the full meaning of faith, and is pretending I am teaching salvation by works alone.
But leaving the important out, is how Saian works. He creates confusion just like you did in order to change the meaning of the word of God.
TheslightestID
Active Member
Jesus's explanation is his and yours is yours, they are different no matter how you try to spin it.
mailmandan
Well-Known Member
You are teaching salvation by faith (your version of faith) + works in contradiction to God's Word. (Romans 1:16; 3:24-28; 4:2-6; 5:1; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9; Philippians 3:9 etc..). The Greek words for "pistis" and "pisteuo" are two forms of the same word. "Pistis" is the noun form, "pisteuo" is the verb form. Nothing in the root meaning of either word carries any concept of works. If you believe/have faith in Christ for salvation, then you are trusting in Him alone to save you. This belief/faith results in actions appropriate to the belief (to one degree or the other/all genuine believers are fruitful, yet not all are equally fruitful) - but the actions are NOT INHERENT in the belief. It's you who is adding to the meaning of faith by trying to "shoe horn" works "into" salvation through faith. Prior to my conversion, while still attending the Roman Catholic church several years ago, I also was confused about this and basically defined faith "as" works.
TheslightestID
Active Member
It's right tbere in the scriptue I quoted, not doing evil and doing good is part of salvation. Hard to believe you are actually sayion "I" don't have ears to hear? The truth is right there in front of you.
mailmandan
Well-Known Member
My explanation is in perfect harmony with Jesus' explanation. It's you who puts a spin on Jesus' words in order to promote works salvation.
mailmandan
Well-Known Member
Prior to my conversion several years ago, I believed as you do now, so none of your arguments or false accusations are anything new or enlightening. By saying that doing good is "part" of salvation, you are clearly teaching works salvation. So is it 50% faith and 50% works that save? What about 90% faith and 10% works? So Christ saves us (for the most part) but our works save us (in part?) Christ's finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers. No supplements needed. (Romans 3:24-28)
TheslightestID
Active Member
Again, its right there in the scripture, you just refuse to see that not doing evil is a huge part of salvation. Here look again:
John 5:28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned."
Christ is stating that is a huge part of faith, as a matter of fact, those works are ALL he mentions there...how can you possibly miss that?
You clearly disagree with Jesus.
I've done all I can for you, and at this point it's clear you are in complete denial of the truth.
Galatians 3:24-25 (NKJV)
24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
mailmandan
Well-Known Member
It's you who refuses to see the truth BECAUSE YOU TEACH WORKS SALVATION. Once again, the good deeds of the redeemed (those who have done good) are not the basis or means of obtaining salvation, but is the evidence of it. A person's conduct, whether good or evil, reveals the condition of his heart.
Doing good flows inescapably from a heart that is saved and doing evil flows equally inescapably from a heart that is unsaved, as we also in Romans 2:6-10. Notice that ALL who come forth unto the resurrection of life (believers - vs. 24) are described as those who have done good and ALL that come forth unto the resurrection of damnation (unbelievers) are described as those who have done evil. *We must not confuse 'descriptive' passages of scripture with 'prescriptive' passages of scripture.*
What did Jesus say in John 3:18? - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already..
Believers are described as "those who have done good" and not those who have done evil and their sins have been washed away by the blood of Christ. Unbelievers are described as those "who have done evil" and not those who have done good and their sin remains. How can you possibly miss that? I know why.
Doing good is the fruit of faith and doing evil is the fruit of unbelief. Every good tree produces good fruit, but a bad tree produces bad fruit. Your biased interpretation is based on flawed hermeneutics.
mailmandan
Well-Known Member
I was recently in a discussion with a Roman Catholic who makes the same mistake as you do. After he stated that the Roman Catholic church does not teach salvation by works, he then contradicted himself by saying this below:
We ARE saved by faith - as long as you properly define "Faith". Faith is NOT simply "believing". Faith INCLUDES: Being baptized, eating His body and drinking His blood/partaking the Lord's Supper during Mass, works of mercy and charity, obeying his commandments, doing the will of the Father etc..
His argument about faith being "defined as" and INCLUDES these works above is just sugar coated double talk and equates to salvation through faith (his version of faith) + works.
James 2:14-26 (NKJV)
14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. 18 But someone will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe--and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. 25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? 26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
mailmandan
Well-Known Member
In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith, but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. *So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!
In James 2:15-18, 20 "faith by itself" or "faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith (which would be like saying that a tree is dead until it produces fruit and then it becomes a living tree). James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works demonstrates that it's dead. Once again, if someone merely says-claims they have faith, but lack resulting evidential works, then they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith. (James 2:14)
In James 2:19, we see that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God," but they do not believe in/have faith in/trust in/reliance in Jesus Christ for salvation. In other words, they do not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved. Their trust and reliance is in Satan (and not in Jesus) as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works.
In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. That is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." He was shown to be righteous.
In James 2:22, faith made perfect or complete by works means bring to maturity to the end, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It doesn't mean that Abraham was finally saved based on merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.
In James 2:23, the scripture was fulfilled in vindicating or demonstrating that Abraham believed God and was accounted as righteous. Abraham was accounted as righteous based on his faith (Genesis 15:6) not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22.
In James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3) Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.
In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:
1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be
In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works are evidences for, or against being in a state of righteousness.
God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." This is the "sense" in which God was "justified." He was shown to be righteous.
Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."
In James 2:25, Rahab believed in the Lord with authentic faith (Joshua 2:9-13), requested "kindness" (2:12), received the promise of kindness (2:14), and hung out the "scarlet line" (2:21), as the demonstration of her faith. She showed that her faith in God was not a dead faith by her works, just as all genuine believers show theirs. (James 2:18)
In James 2:26, the comparison of the human spirit and faith converges around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body exhibits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not works; rather, life in faith is the source of works. (Ephesians 2:5-10)
Man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is substantiated, evidenced by works. (James 2:14-26)
Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.
It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not based the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-26) *Perfect Harmony*
mailmandan
Well-Known Member
When did I say that? Faith is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. No fruit at all demonstrates there is no root.
So your religion is a "works" religion too? Just shows how ridiculous OSAS is!
mailmandan
Well-Known Member
Say what?
This isn’t even about OSAS. It’s about salvation through faith, not works vs. salvation through faith and works.You constantly attack "works" when you are guilty also!Say what?
mailmandan
Well-Known Member
I attack salvation by works, but I don’t attack saved by grace through faith, not works, created in Christ Jesus for good works.. (Ephesians 2:8-10)
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