A Simple Question To The Forum About Getting Into The Kingdom Of God.

Eccl.12:13 · Jan 13, 2011

Here is a very simple question, to which some may, or may not reply. Most I know will not even agree, but this is the reason for a forum. But if you do respond, please provide scriptures that helped you come to your conclusion.

The question:

If a person does all that they can to keep the statues, commandments and laws of God to the best of their ability, even if they do not keep them perfectly, will it DECREASE their chance of entering God's kingdom?

Hopefully you will answer honestly, although it may go totally against what you feel or have been taught.

Because to be honest......I can find NOWHERE in the scriptures where it says, "If you KEEP God's laws to the best of your abilities, it will lessen your chances or you will NOT get into His kingdom if you try!"

So many people say, ‘It is impossible to keep ALL of God’s Laws Perfectly!” And they are right! It IS impossible! But God, NEVER EVER tells us we should not TRY to keep them! As a matter of fact, from Gen. to Rev. the one thing God tells us to do over and over again is to KEEP His Commandments.

Now let's just be real for a moment, the scriptures says the following:

1 Peter 4
[18] And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

Now I don't know about you, but I do know for a fact the following people were considered truly righteous in God's eye:

Heb.11
[4] By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain...
[5] By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death...
[7] By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
[8] By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed;
[20] By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come.
[31] By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.
[32] And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets:
[36] And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment:
[37] They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;
[39] And these all, having obtained a good report through faith,

ALL of the above saints died with a good report. All of these saints are righteous according to God. Now do you think they did their best to keep God’s commandments? Of course. Do you think they kept them perfectly? Of course not. And yet the inspired word of God tell us ALL died with a good report. Can you think of a more righteous group than this?

Now if these "SCARCELY be saved", where does that leave you and me?

“And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?” (And for the record, a sinner is one that BREAKS the laws, commandments and statues of God!)

Please understand,

I’m not asking about being justified by the law, or that it’s impossible to keep ALL of God’s laws, or if you break one you break them all, or having faith, or anything about God’s grace and the blood shed for our PAST sins.

It’s just a simple question

So again I ask:

If a person does all that they can to keep the statues, commandments and laws of God, even if they do not keep them perfectly, will it DECREASE their chances of getting into His kingdom?

“Will keeping God’s laws cause a person NOT to enter into His kingdom?”

Because if keeping God’s laws will NOT decrease my chances, that means it can only HELP!!!!

A very wise man once said;

“Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

Again, God’s word says, “And if the righteous scarcely be saved….”, now shouldn’t we do ALL we can to better our chances! That’s right…..I said DO!

Why?

Because faith alone just does not cut it;

"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone."
"But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?"
"Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."
"For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."

EVEN IF YOU DO NOT REPLY……….AT LEAST THINK ABOUT IT!!!!!

.

Martin W. · Jan 13, 2011

Whew!!

I hope you don't mind if I think out loud on this one eccl.12.13.

This is a hard one ..... but no , I don't think keeping the law decreases chances for the kingdom ,

I feel that if a believer strives to keep the law , it is very honorable and very good. The law has many beneficial aspects for us.. The kingdom would approve.

I think it is more how we "structure it" . If we are first "saved at the cross" (because we cannot keep the law perfectly) , and then adapt the law as best we can , I do not feel it harms kingdom chances.

But if we have it "structured" so that we follow the law as the priority , and only use the cross for the occasional law we cannot keep , it would seem as though we value the law more than the cross . I think the one on the cross would be displeased.

There is also a reference (in Romans I think) where it says the power of sin comes from the law. Now if we remove the law and it's requirements , then the power of sin is dismantled. In a sense Jesus removed the power of sin by abolishing the requirements of the law .

If we drag the Law back in , we drag the power of sin back in. The purpose of the cross was to remove the stronghold of sin.

I agree with what you said "faith without works is dead" , but does "works" mean "keeping the law" ?
I always thought "works" refers to good deeds done for others .

-------------------

Thanks eccl.12:13. You have asked a thought provoking question. I have always admired how you honor the law .

Bottom line .... I think the Law is great. I think the Lord thinks the Law is great. The problem has always been mankind . We are the problem. The sin in us is the problem . Not the law itself.

Martin.

Martin W. · Jan 13, 2011

Eccl.12:13 said:
Hopefully you will answer honestly, although it may go totally against what you feel or have been taught.

I would like to add an "honest" confession in regards to "keeping the law"

I have always has a strong internal faith based simply on the cross. I have never been involved much with organized religion. I have never polished golden candle sticks. I do not have a little religious shrine in my home that I pray at. You get my point.

But (I confess) there are times I wish I was more "legalistic" . There are times I wish I could put on a robe , bow down in front of golden crosses , golden candlesticks , in a big religious setting , and commune with my Lord.

It makes me think I would be more "religious"

Now , here is my point ..... mankind loves religion , golden altars , religious exercises .... billions of people perform them daily around the world.

The Pharasees were the best of the best when it came to accurate religious observances. They followed the law to a "T" . They even tied scriptures to their foreheads in little leather boxes.

We all know what Jesus said to the Pharisees.

-----------------------

Never for a moment do I ever expect I will become "externally religious" but at times I find it appealing.

Am I wanting to be more of a Pharisee and less of an internal faith guy ??,

Deep down I think I would like the robes and religious clutter to provide a nice covering for my internal flaws and weaknesses.

True confession

--------------------------------

Another thought that goes through my mind were the old testament sacrifices . The best animal was selected and sacrificed to honor God. A part of me thinks that was kind of cool. The best animal in the flock was highly valuable to the people , and to give it up was a big deal for them,

Then I put myself in those shoes for a minute. Lets say next Sabbath , I wanted to offer something I value to the Lord. Lets say my brand new car or something. Douse it with gas and sacrifice it .

truth is , I would go running back to the cross faster than even my car could go. I love my car. I feel like I love my car more than my Lord. That is why I love the cross , because it proves that the Lord loves me and accepts me even if there are days my heart is somewhere else. I will never abandon the cross , because it will never abandon me. Religion exercises and laws become less appealing all of a sudden.

Martin.

Eccl.12:13 · Jan 13, 2011

Martin W. said:
Bottom line .... I think the Law is great. I think the Lord thinks the Law is great. The problem has always been mankind . We are the problem. The sin in us is the problem . Not the law itself.

Martin.

Brother....I could not agree with you more! You worded it just as Paul did in Heb. and in many of his other writings! Thanks for an honest answer!

.

Robbie · Jan 13, 2011

I would say it's harder for everyone on this planet to enter the Kingdom of God than it would be for a person to flap their arms and fly up to heaven... and even though this isn't possible with man... all things are possible with God... thanks to God for sending His Son to die for our sins and by doing so ripping the veil in two so we could personally know our Father and King... if He's our King we're His Kingdom... this is eternal life... to know God... and believe in the One He sent...

Eccl.12:13 · Jan 13, 2011

Martin W. said:
I would like to add an "honest" confession in regards to "keeping the law"

I have always has a strong internal faith based simply on the cross. I have never been involved much with organized religion. I have never polished golden candle sticks. I do not have a little religious shrine in my home that I pray at. You get my point.

But (I confess) there are times I wish I was more "legalistic" . There are times I wish I could put on a robe , bow down in front of golden crosses , golden candlesticks , in a big religious setting , and commune with my Lord.

It makes me think I would be more "religious"

Now , here is my point ..... mankind loves religion , golden altars , religious exercises .... billions of people perform them daily around the world.

The Pharasees were the best of the best when it came to accurate religious observances. They followed the law to a "T" . They even tied scriptures to their foreheads in little leather boxes.

We all know what Jesus said to the Pharisees.

-----------------------

Never for a moment do I ever expect I will become "externally religious" but at times I find it appealing.

Am I wanting to be more of a Pharisee and less of an internal faith guy ??,

Deep down I think I would like the robes and religious clutter to provide a nice covering for my internal flaws and weaknesses.

True confession
--------------------------------

Another thought that goes through my mind were the old testament sacrifices . The best animal was selected and sacrificed to honor God. A part of me thinks that was kind of cool. The best animal in the flock was highly valuable to the people , and to give it up was a big deal for them,

Then I put myself in those shoes for a minute. Lets say next Sabbath , I wanted to offer something I value to the Lord. Lets say my brand new car or something. Douse it with gas and sacrifice it .

truth is , I would go running back to the cross faster than even my car could go. I love my car. I feel like I love my car more than my Lord. That is why I love the cross , because it proves that the Lord loves me and accepts me even if there are days my heart is somewhere else. I will never abandon the cross , because it will never abandon me. Religion exercises and laws become less appealing all of a sudden.

Martin.

The problem with the Pharisee is that they "added" and made what God gave man a burden. This is why they questioned Jesus and His desciples about such things as washing their hands, healing on God's sabbath, working on the sabbath and all sorts of things. They lost sight of the real meaning behind God's laws. It's as though they forgot all about common sense. Just look at the way Jesus had to break it down to them so that, not they the Pharisee, would understand, but that the people looking to them for guidance, would understand and not follow in their ways;

"And, behold, there was a man which had his hand withered. And they asked him, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath days? that they might accuse him. And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out? How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days. Then saith he to the man, Stretch forth thine hand. And he stretched it forth; and it was restored whole, like as the other."

"And the ruler of the synagogue answered with indignation, because that Jesus had healed on the sabbath day, and said unto the people, There are six days in which men ought to work: in them therefore come and be healed, and not on the sabbath day. The Lord then answered him, and said, Thou hypocrite, doth not each one of you on the sabbath loose his ox or his ass from the stall, and lead him away to watering? And ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan hath bound, lo, these eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the sabbath day? And when he had said these things, all his adversaries were ashamed: and all the people rejoiced for all the glorious things that were done by him."

The blood of Jesus is the ONLY thing that have redeemed us from the second death! Now that we have been redeemed we are to NOT to fall back and do those things which will keep us from entering into His kingdom, we are to move forward and do as Paul, do not covet! And should we stop there? Did Paul? Of course not!

Do not be as the Pharisee, but have faith in the blood of Jesus, for it was the shedding of His blood that we have been delivered. And we should continue to do our best to keep God's commandments!

.

Larry Conlley · Jan 15, 2011

You are born into the Kingdom of God, if you are a Son of God. You will be judged according to your works, which will be the works fo your Father. And your name must be found written in the Book of Life to which only the names of those who are of God will be found written in there.

Maybe this will help you out, and give you something to think about. I was born of the flesh in America, my parents where Americans. I was raised up in America. I do not have to ask anyone to tell ma about America. Because I am from America.

Sons of God know what it takes to get into the Kingdom of God.

Eccl.12:13 · Jan 15, 2011

Larry Conlley said:
You are born into the Kingdom of God, if you are a Son of God. You will be judged according to your works, which will be the works fo your Father. And your name must be found written in the Book of Life to which only the names of those who are of God will be found written in there.

Maybe this will help you out, and give you something to think about. I was born of the flesh in America, my parents where Americans. I was raised up in America. I do not have to ask anyone to tell ma about America. Because I am from America.

Sons of God know what it takes to get into the Kingdom of God.

Thanks for reading. Just a question for you, By "works" you mean the 'act' of doing something and not just sitting and 'believing', correct?

.

Larry Conlley · Jan 15, 2011

No, day dreaming does not count. There are 2 kinds of works. Good works and evil works. So you will be judged by your works.

If you believe a lie, will that make a lie become true. No. But if you believe the truth, then your belief will cause you to do good works and leave off doing evil works .

So I am thinking, It is better to have more good works than evil works on your day of judgement.

Rach1370 · Jan 15, 2011

The way to heaven is believing in, loving and following Jesus.
But this in no way means that we sit on our butts, do nothing and think that as long as Jesus is on our side, we can get away with any behavior.
Loving Jesus means living in the light; loving God and loving others.
Following Jesus means doing our best daily, to put sin to death. This means for us to strive towards many things. Of course loving others (Luke 6:27), not judging others (Luke 6:37), bearing good fruit through our works (Luke 6:43), base everything in our lives on the rock that is Christ (Luke 6:46)....and so many other things Jesus told us to do!

I know Ecc, that when you say 'commandments', you mean the Old Law...the Pentateuch.
But Romans 6 and 7 tell us that this old law was given to man to show us two things: what sin is, and that mankind can't keep the law. By showing us what sin is, and that we cannot defeat it ourselves, through the keeping of the law; it was in essence making way for the only thing that could save us from it....Jesus!
This does not mean that we completely dismiss the old covenant. You don't dismiss what is foundational to the completion of something! You don't get rid of the foundation of a building, just because you now live in the penthouse!!

Just think about the difference between the old and new covenants. The old requires you to try and earn salvation by keeping a law that cannot be kept. And the new requires you to love Jesus, who was perfect, who stood in our place, both in death, and in front of the Father, vouching for us!
And we can think simply too! 'Old' means: belonging to the past,
and 'New' means: (of physical or moral qualities) different and better and also, other than the former or the old.
Why would God, who is perfect and wise, give these things to us in the order He has? If He truly meant for us to continue on in Old covenant traditions, why was Jesus sent to usher in a New covenant?? At the very least, it could have been called something else....but nope! New covenant implies a completely New way of worshiping and salvation!!! And that, my friend, is not dodging the pork...it's just loving and following Jesus!!

Duckybill · Jan 16, 2011

The Law of Moses was ONLY given to the Nation of Israel. Christians have a New Covenant.

Eccl.12:13 · Jan 16, 2011

Rach said:
The way to heaven is believing in, loving and following Jesus.
But this in no way means that we sit on our butts, do nothing and think that as long as Jesus is on our side, we can get away with any behavior.
Loving Jesus means living in the light; loving God and loving others.
Following Jesus means doing our best daily, to put sin to death. This means for us to strive towards many things. Of course loving others (Luke 6:27), not judging others (Luke 6:37), bearing good fruit through our works (Luke 6:43), base everything in our lives on the rock that is Christ (Luke 6:46)....and so many other things Jesus told us to do!

I know Ecc, that when you say 'commandments', you mean the Old Law...the Pentateuch.
But Romans 6 and 7 tell us that this old law was given to man to show us two things: what sin is, and that mankind can't keep the law. By showing us what sin is, and that we cannot defeat it ourselves, through the keeping of the law; it was in essence making way for the only thing that could save us from it....Jesus!
This does not mean that we completely dismiss the old covenant. You don't dismiss what is foundational to the completion of something! You don't get rid of the foundation of a building, just because you now live in the penthouse!!

Just think about the difference between the old and new covenants. The old requires you to try and earn salvation by keeping a law that cannot be kept. And the new requires you to love Jesus, who was perfect, who stood in our place, both in death, and in front of the Father, vouching for us!
And we can think simply too! 'Old' means: belonging to the past,
and 'New' means: (of physical or moral qualities) different and better and also, other than the former or the old.
Why would God, who is perfect and wise, give these things to us in the order He has? If He truly meant for us to continue on in Old covenant traditions, why was Jesus sent to usher in a New covenant?? At the very least, it could have been called something else....but nope! New covenant implies a completely New way of worshiping and salvation!!! And that, my friend, is not dodging the pork...it's just loving and following Jesus!!

You sure said a lot here.....but I'm still not sure about WHAT it is you are saying concerning the question I presented.

Are you saying if a person does all that they can to keep God's laws to the best of their ability, even if they do not keep them perfectly, it will DECREASE their chances of getting into His kingdom!

Readers please understand.....I'm not trying to change anyone's mind here. Believe what you will.

But for those that have never considered it.....think about it.

Just think about some of the terms used and then ask yourselves, "How in the word could God NOT what us to obey and keep His laws." Let's look at one statement used above and then attach some reasoning to it.....

But Romans 6 and 7 tell us that this old law was given to man to show us two things: what sin is, and that mankind can't keep the law.

Now....Did God give us His laws to let us know what sin is? Yes! And it was by these same OT laws that Peter, Paul and ALL of the apostles taught men what sin was. As a matter of fact Paul tells us the same;

Rom.7
[7] What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Now do you think Paul taught these Romans that it was wrong to covet? And do you think Paul stopped there? Don't you think he went on to tell them that the law also says not to kill, lie, steal, bear false witness and the rest of what the law said sin is? Of course he did. That was his job....to let the Gentiles know what was right and what was wrong. And the ONLY place he could go to tell them that was to the laws of the OT!

Next....Can mankind keep God's laws? Well, before answering that let's ask another question; Can mankind keep God's laws Perfectly? NO! No one can! That's why Jesus had to come and die for us! That's why no one threw a stone at the woman that was caught committing adultry, because no one was faultless.

But let me ask this.....Can anyone find anywhere, where God tells mankind he is not to TRY to even keep HIs laws since they cannot be kept perfectly? NO!!!

All of the saints of old committed sin. And yet Paul tells us they died with a "good report" with the Lord! Now do you think they tried their best to keep God's laws to the best of their ability? And yet what does the scriptures say about them getting into God's kingdom?

And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

Now if they will just barely make it in, and they did all they knew, where does that leave you and me?

So again, "If a person does all that they can to keep the statues, commandments and laws of God to the best of their ability, even if they do not keep them perfectly, will it DECREASE their chance of getting into God's kingdom?

Again readers......Do not let someone that does not even know what, "the works of the law" are convince you that ALL of God's laws have been nailed to His cross and there is no need to try to keep them.

.

.

Duckybill · Jan 16, 2011

Eccl.12:13 said:
So again, "If a person does all that they can to keep the statues, commandments and laws of God to the best of their ability, even if they do not keep them perfectly, will it DECREASE their chance of getting into God's kingdom?

Again readers......Do not let someone that does not even know what, "the works of the law" are convince you that ALL of God's laws have been nailed to His cross and there is no need to try to keep them.

Galatians 3:10 (NKJV)
[sup]10 [/sup]For as many as are of the works of THE LAW are under the curse;

Eccl.12:13 · Jan 16, 2011

Duckybill said:
Galatians 3:10 (NKJV)
[sup]10 [/sup]For as many as are of the works of THE LAW are under the curse;

First, how about quoting AND telling the readers just what it is you are trying to say!

Next.....YOU need to search God's word to find out just what, "the works of the law" are before trying to teach others!

Paul speaks of TWO different laws!

.

Larry Conlley · Jan 16, 2011

"For as many as are of the works of THE LAW are under the curse;"

Corrected so as to where you can comprehend the truth:

For as many as are of the works of THE Devil are under the curse;

There is only 2 kinds of works as Jesus stated in the Book of John and various other places in the Bible. I do not need to read it to know it or believe it. I know it because the Spirit of Truth.

The works of the devil or the works of God, take your pick. That is all there is.

Duckybill · Jan 16, 2011

Eccl.12:13 said:
First, how about quoting AND telling the readers just what it is you are trying to say!

Next.....YOU need to search God's word to find out just what, "the works of the law" are before trying to teach others!

Paul speaks of TWO different laws!

THE LAW. How is that 2? You are very confused.

Eccl.12:13 · Jan 16, 2011

Duckybill said:
THE LAW. How is that 2? You are very confused.

No! You are unlearned. A lesson will be coming!

But back to the question;

"If a person does all that they can to keep the statues, commandments and laws of God to the best of their ability, even if they do not keep them perfectly, will it DECREASE their chance of getting into God's kingdom?"

Some how I doubt you will answer, so as far as replying back to your posts concerning this question, i see no need!

"Good day duckybill, I said good day sir!"

.

Larry Conlley · Jan 16, 2011

"If a person does all that they can to keep the statues, commandments and laws of God to the best of their ability, even if they do not keep them perfectly, will it DECREASE their chance of getting into God's kingdom?"

NO

Eccl.12:13 · Jan 16, 2011

Larry Conlley said:
"If a person does all that they can to keep the statues, commandments and laws of God to the best of their ability, even if they do not keep them perfectly, will it DECREASE their chance of getting into God's kingdom?"

NO

Thanks for reading and the reply.

.

Duckybill · Jan 16, 2011

Eccl.12:13 said:
No! You are unlearned. A lesson will be coming!

And of course you are learned. We have been discussing this for a while so how long must we wait for your explanation? Tell us how THE LAW is plural.

But back to the question;

"If a person does all that they can to keep the statues, commandments and laws of God to the best of their ability, even if they do not keep them perfectly, will it DECREASE their chance of getting into God's kingdom?"

Lord have mercy! How many times do you want me to answer that question? And you call me unlearned?

Galatians 5:2-4 (NKJV)
[sup]2 [/sup]Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. [sup]3 [/sup]And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law. [sup]4 [/sup]You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

Some how I doubt you will answer, so as far as replying back to your posts concerning this question, i see no need!

Well I answered again so we'll see how many times you want me to answer your question.

A Simple Question To The Forum About Getting Into The Kingdom Of God.

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