Will believers really be saved? (OSAS vs Loss of Salvation)

atpollard said:

You don’t have to believe me, but you might want to think about what John had to say on the subject:

They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us. [1 John 2:19 NKJV]
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If you are saved, then you cannot forsake God; if you forsake God, then you were never saved.

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Ezekiel 18
24But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and practices iniquity... None of the righteous acts he did will be remembered.

Faith is counted as righteousness--when a person turns from his faith, his faith is not remembered. He is "blotted out" Exodus 32:33, Revelation 3:4-5, so that it is as though he had never been saved at all. Christ "denies" him before the Father and His angels.

07-07-07 said:

We don't earn SALVATION, but we MUST walk worthy of IT.

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When we are truly saved, we live like what we believe

If we aren't, then how can God be with us

atpollard said:

His statement was we can lose salvation as easily as we found it ... I agree because the answer to both is “not at all”.
I did not FIND salvation. God chose me, not the other way around.
Just as I could not FIND salvation, I cannot LOSE salvation.
God gave the GIFT so only God can take it back.

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God gave many gifts to Adam and Eve... they lost a lot (eg, eating from the Tree of Life was "given" them Genesis 1:16) through sin.
God saw to it Esau got the birth right... which Esau lost through sin.
God "gave" the Promised Land to the Israelites; a generation fell under God's wrath and failed to "possess" it due to sin.
We are "given" eternal life, in like manner, but are told to "lay hold on the eternal life"--and if not we will not inherit but fall under wrath for sin.

atpollard said:

We will have to agree to disagree about the ability of God to finish what he has begun [Philippians 1:6]

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1. God is not mindless power--from His Holy and Awesome Mind have issued Words revealing what He intends to do with His power. This is not a question of ability. God can raise sons for Abraham from rocks. This is about what He has SAID He does--the contract He has laid out.
2. When the work begins, that is God, and when the work finishes, that is God.
Yes, God is Savior--there is no Savior but God--to think otherwise is idolatry.
And?
That has nothing at all to do with God's declaration that He blots people out of His Book.

atpollard said:

the ability of the Son to lose none that the Father has given Him [John 6:39]

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Yes, the Word, Jesus, keeps those who keep the Word Revelation 3:8, Revelation 3:10. That has nothing to do with the dynamic of God blotting sinners out of His Book. What do you do with that dynamic of God's Word? It has no place in your system, right?

atpollard said:

the deposit of the Holy Spirit to guarantee the redemption of God’s possession [2 Corinthians 1:22, 2 Corinthians 5:5, Ephesians 1:14]

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1. Yes, we are sealed with the Spirit, and so are warned not to grieve Him--we know what happened to Samson and King Saul, and we know from Apostolic authority, that God had those things written down specifically with Christians in mind 1 Corinthians 9:10, 1 Corinthians 10:11 so that we won't behave as they did and so suffer the same consequences 1 Corinthians 10:1-13.
2. We are warned that if we disregard God's Word, God can withhold that Spirit 1 Thessalonians 4:8.

atpollard said:

and the claim that those God justified, He also glorified [Romans 8:30].

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Believers are both sanctified Hebrews 10:10 and glorified 2 Corinthians 3:18 presently.

atpollard said:

You are free to cling to your old covenant fear of rejection while I place my hope in a new covenant with better promises. [Hebrews 8:6]

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1. False dilemma : beholding God's kindness and beholding God's severity are not mutually exclusive activities, but we are even explicitly commanded to do both, so you are actually in rebellion against God's Word by denying and fighting against this injunction.
2. "New Covenant" Scripture warns believers who turn from faith are "cut off" just as the Jews before them Romans 11:17-22.
3. The God Who "doesn't change" Malachi 3:6 blots men out of His Book for sinning, and that is as true under the Old Covenant Exodus 32:33 as under the New Covenant Revelation 3:4-5.

My advice is to continue in your faith and confidence in God, I only reject your bases for arriving there.

atpollard said:

His statement was we can lose salvation as easily as we found it ... I agree because the answer to both is “not at all”.
I did not FIND salvation. God chose me, not the other way around.
Just as I could not FIND salvation, I cannot LOSE salvation.
God gave the GIFT so only God can take it back.

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God found us in darkness Matthew 4:16.
God found us going our own way Romans 3.
We each had gone our own way Isaiah 53.
We didn't save ourselves--God is Savior.
All of that is true--it is ALSO true that Scripture is littered with examples of men who forfeited what ought to have been theirs through sinning.

atpollard said:

You don’t have to believe me, but you might want to think about what John had to say on the subject:

They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us. [1 John 2:19 NKJV]
​

If you are saved, then you cannot forsake God; if you forsake God, then you were never saved.

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Written to Christians:
Romans 11:22 (NKJV)
22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise YOU also will be cut off.

atpollard said:

I agree, fortunately it was a gift from God and I can no more reverse by spiritual birth than I can reverse my natural birth.

Philippians 1:3-7 [NKJV] 3

I thank my God upon every remembrance of you, always in every prayer of mine making request for you all with joy, for your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now, being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ; just as it is right for me to think this of you all, because I have you in my heart, inasmuch as both in my chains and in the defense and confirmation of the gospel, you all are partakers with me of grace.
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Romans 8:28-30 [NKJV]

And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.​

Ephesians 1:13-14 [NKJV]

In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.​

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Ezekiel 33
[11] Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
[12] Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sinneth.
[13] When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it.

Ezekiel 33:13 - When I say to the righteous that he shall surely live, but he trusts in his OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS and commits iniquity, none of his righteous works shall be remembered; but because of the iniquity that he has committed, he shall die. Did you read that? "If he trusts in his OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS." This is the heart of the matter here. This is describing a righteousness which is by the law rather than that which is by faith.

The New Testament states in Romans 10:3 - "For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believes.

mailmandan said:

Ezekiel 33:13 - When I say to the righteous that he shall surely live, but he trusts in his OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS and commits iniquity, none of his righteous works shall be remembered; but because of the iniquity that he has committed, he shall die. Did you read that? "If he trusts in his OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS." This is the heart of the matter here. This is describing a righteousness which is by the law rather than that which is by faith.

The New Testament states in Romans 10:3 - "For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believes.

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"Apples and oranges" : it plainly is a warning aimed at a man who thinks he can get away with sinning just because his past life was righteous, and it has nothing to do with "You can't be justified by your own righteousness, you need the righteousness of faith."

"When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail."

mailmandan said:

Ezekiel 33:13 - When I say to the righteous that he shall surely live, but he trusts in his OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS and commits iniquity, none of his righteous works shall be remembered; but because of the iniquity that he has committed, he shall die. Did you read that? "If he trusts in his OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS." This is the heart of the matter here. This is describing a righteousness which is by the law rather than that which is by faith.

The New Testament states in Romans 10:3 - "For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believes.

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The Old and New Testaments connect together. The Law was to be obeyed by the heart, not by the flesh, so they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believes. - Romans 10:3-4

Luke 1
[5] There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
[6] And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

Philippians 3:9 - and be found in Him, not having my OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith.

Wrangler said:

Everything. Wearing a bullet proof vest IN THE MOMENT OF TRUTH has everything to do with eternal life.

Reality works a certain way. Water boils at 100C and freezes at 0C (@ STP). These are present tense conditions. Just because water previously was frozen does not mean it cannot boil. The same soul, can freeze (be saved) and then be boiled (damned). Just like saving $1 now does not mean it cannot be spent tomorrow.



The converse, not wearing it is no guarantee you will remain unhurt. Another good analogy in reality is a condom. Having it but not using it IN THE MOMENT OF TRUTH is not a guarantee of it's advertised benefits. (And there are no guarantees - except death and taxes).



Just like the manufacturer of the bullet proof vest; it’s not about me and what I do, it’s about what he did.

This syntax 'God put eternal life on me' implies a denial of your ability to take off the bullet proof vest (not believing in Christ as your Savior) IN THE MOMENT OF TRUTH.

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That’s your problem

I don’t put anything on, Gods clothes me with eternal life.

you need to back away,

Eternally Grateful said:

That’s your problem

I don’t put anything on, Gods clothes me with eternal life.

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There you go again; turning salvation into something mystical when it is not. Look. Here is how it works; there will be a day of judgment. On that day the judge will decide thumbs up or thumbs down.

There is no ‘clothing you with eternal life.’

Eternally Grateful said:

you need to back away

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?

mailmandan said:

Philippians 3:9 - and be found in Him, not having my OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith.

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My answer is the same : "When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail."

The passage in Ezekiel is about a person thinking, "I can sin and get away with it because I have lived the right way for a while." THAT person, who intends to sin, is not going to get away with sinning, because God is going to FORGET his righteousness--righteousness can be forgotten just like sins can be forgotten. So, under the New Covenant, righteousness of faith can be forgotten if people turn from their faith and go into unbelief according to Romans 11, Hebrews 3, Hebrews 10, Revelation 3, etc.

GracePeace said:

My answer is the same : "When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail."

The passage in Ezekiel is about a person thinking, "I can sin and get away with it because I have lived the right way for a while." THAT person, who intends to sin, is not going to get away with sinning, because God is going to FORGET his righteousness--righteousness can be forgotten just like sins can be forgotten. So, under the New Covenant, righteousness of faith can be forgotten if people turn from their faith and go into unbelief according to Romans 11, Hebrews 3, Hebrews 10, Revelation 3, etc.

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I don’t believe these passages of scripture above teach that genuine born again Christians go into unbelief and lose their salvation, so we remain in disagreement.

mailmandan said:

I don’t believe these passages of scripture above teach that genuine born again Christians go into unbelief and lose their salvation, so we remain in disagreement.

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What I'm saying is that we see there is a dynamic where God "forgets righteousness".
I understand your system throws "'extra' parts" (parts that don't "fit" into your system) out.
I do not throw dynamics out.
I see this dynamic alive and well in passages like Romans 11:17-22, Hebrews 10:36-39, Revelation 3:4-5.
God doesn't change Malachi 3:6.