Will believers really be saved? (OSAS vs Loss of Salvation)

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Eternally Grateful

Well-Known Member
Feb 27, 2020
14,470
8,189
113
58
Columbus, ohio
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
There you go again; turning salvation into something mystical when it is not. Look. Here is how it works; there will be a day of judgment. On that day the judge will decide thumbs up or thumbs down.

There is no ‘clothing you with eternal life.’



?
Well you go to,that judgment, when God tells you to depart from him don’t blame me.
 
  • Like
Reactions: GracePeace

mailmandan

Well-Known Member
Feb 24, 2020
4,443
4,727
113
The Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
What I'm saying is that we see there is a dynamic where God "forgets righteousness".
I understand your system throws "'extra' parts" (parts that don't "fit" into your system) out.
I do not throw dynamics out.
I see this dynamic alive and well in passages like Romans 11:17-22, Hebrews 10:36-39, Revelation 3:4-5.
God doesn't change Malachi 3:6.
I properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching my conclusion on doctrine, as demonstrated in posts #51 and #54. In regards to Romans 11:17-22, the Israelites were in the olive tree to begin with because they were the "natural branches" and not because they were all saved. Because of their unbelief and hard hearts God removed His gracious hand from them as a people overall and broke them off from His goodness (but only for a time after which they will be restored - Romans 11:24-26). We Gentiles have now been grafted into God's goodness and are the recipients of His blessings. Paul's warning is that we should not become arrogant because we might lose the goodness and blessings of God just like the Israelites lost the goodness and blessings of God, but this doesn't speak of losing salvation.

Romans 11:24 - For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? 25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written..

Professing Christians who are Gentiles are corporately in outward covenant with Christ so, it would appear that Romans 11 is speaking about the question of collective ecclesiology and not individual soteriology. I see the warning to this collective body, which is corporately joined to Christ and is in a covenant relationship, but how could this mean that every individual in it is in saving union with Christ? Hence the "cut off." Union with Christ applies to the elect, and only for the elect are, "the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable." (verse 29) But since non-elect covenant members are mixed in, Christ clearly appears to have non-elect branches and while they may be joined outwardly in covenant with Christ, since they have professed faith in Jesus, the faith of some of them is spurious.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Eternally Grateful

mailmandan

Well-Known Member
Feb 24, 2020
4,443
4,727
113
The Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I see this dynamic alive and well in passages like Romans 11:17-22, Hebrews 10:36-39, Revelation 3:4-5. God doesn't change Malachi 3:6.
In regards to Hebrews 26-39, to "sin willfully" in the Greek carries the idea of deliberate intention that is habitual, which stems from rejecting Christ deliberately. This is continuous action, a matter of practice. Now we don't walk along our daily life and "accidentally" fall into a pit called sin. We exercise our will but, the use of the participle clearly shows a ongoing, willful, habitual action. The unrighteous practice sin (1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21); not the righteous, who are born of God. (1 Corinthians 6:11; 1 John 3:9) *Hermeneutics.

If the word 'sanctified' in Hebrews 10:29 is used to describe saved people who lost their salvation as eternal IN-securists teach, then we have a contradiction because the writer of Hebrews in verse 10 said "sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all" (Hebrews 10:10) and in verse 14, we read, "perfected for all time those who are sanctified." (Hebrews 10:14) I've heard eternal IN-securists try to "get around" the truth here by either saying forever doesn't really mean forever or "once for all and for all time" ONLY applies to "the offering of the body of Jesus Christ," but not to the person who is sanctified. Yet in Hebrews 10:10, we clearly read ..WE have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. In Hebrews 10:14, we read - For by one offering He has perfected for all time THOSE who are sanctified. To go from sanctified back to un-sanctified would be in contradiction here.

*NOWHERE in the context does it specifically say the person who "trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant" was "saved" and/or "lost their salvation." The reference to "the blood of the covenant that sanctified him" in verse 29 "on the surface" appears to be referring to a Christian, but this overlooks the fact that the word translated "sanctified" (which is the verb form of the adjective "holy") which means "set apart," and doesn't necessarily refer to salvation.

Strong's Concordance
hagiazó: to make holy, consecrate, sanctify
Original Word: ἁγιάζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: hagiazó
Phonetic Spelling: (hag-ee-ad'-zo)
Definition: to make holy, consecrate, sanctify
Usage: I make holy, treat as holy, set apart as holy, sanctify, hallow, purify.

In 1 Corinthians 7:14, Paul uses it to specifically refer to non-Christians who are "sanctified" or "set apart" by their believing spouse and by this Paul does not mean that they are saved. A non-Christian can be "set apart" from other non-Christians without experiencing salvation as Paul explained. So the word "sanctified" means to be "set apart." If the word "sanctified" simply meant saved, then you would have to say that the seventh day was saved (Genesis 2:3), the tabernacle was saved (Exodus 29:43), Moses saved the people after coming down off the mountain (Exodus 19:14), the priests and the Levites saved themselves (1 Chronicles 15:14), the Father saved the Son (John 10:36), the Son saved Himself (John 17:19) and many other things that do not line up with scripture.

In verse 39, the writer of Hebrews sets up a CONTRAST that makes it clear to me that he was referring to make believers/nominal Christians and not saved people: But WE are not OF THOSE who draw back to perdition, but OF THOSE who believe to the saving of the soul. Those who draw back to perdition do not believe to the saving of the soul and those who believe to the saving of the soul do not draw back to perdition.

So after considering the CONTEXT, it seems most likely that "he was sanctified" should be understood in the sense of someone who had been "set apart" or identified as a professing believer who is among Hebrew Christian believers, but later renounces his identification with those Hebrew believers, by rejecting the "knowledge of the truth" that he had received, and trampling under foot the work and the person of Christ himself. This gives evidence that his identification with the Hebrew Christian community of believers was only superficial and that he was not a genuine believer.
 

GracePeace

Well-Known Member
May 4, 2021
3,409
675
113
Southwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching my conclusion on doctrine...
Not from what I've seen--again, you read your "not by works but by faith" doctrine into everything.

In regards to Romans 11:17-22, the Israelites were in the olive tree to begin with because they were the "natural branches" and not because they were all saved. Because of their unbelief and hard hearts God removed His gracious hand from them as a people overall and broke them off from His goodness (but only for a time after which they will be restored - Romans 11:24-26).
We Gentiles have now been grafted into God's goodness and are the recipients of His blessings. Paul's warning is that we should not become arrogant because we might lose the goodness and blessings of God just like the Israelites lost the goodness and blessings of God, but this doesn't speak of losing salvation.
Well, for everyone who isn't brainwashed with OSAS, we see that the warning is that faith can be lost.
If you think you're going to have salvation without faith that's an "interesting" "take".

Romans 11:24 - For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? 25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written..

Professing Christians who are Gentiles are corporately in outward covenant with Christ so, it would appear that Romans 11 is speaking about the question of collective ecclesiology and not individual soteriology. I see the warning to this collective body, which is corporately joined to Christ and is in a covenant relationship, but how could this mean that every individual in it is in saving union with Christ? Hence the "cut off."
Oops! Why does he say a few branches were cut off from wild trees and grafted in to the cultivated? Why not the whole trees? What was it about these branches that made them get grafted in? Paul affirms explicitly that they are grafted in because of "faith"--"you stand by faith". Your system has no place for the Bible though.

Union with Christ applies to the elect, and only for the elect are, "the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable." (verse 29) But since non-elect covenant members are mixed in, Christ clearly appears to have non-elect branches and while they may be joined outwardly in covenant with Christ, since they have professed faith in Jesus, the faith of some of them is spurious.
So, they had the power to trick God into grafting them in because of their faith... which was spurious... you have a strange "god".
 

GracePeace

Well-Known Member
May 4, 2021
3,409
675
113
Southwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
In regards to Hebrews 26-39, to "sin willfully" in the Greek carries the idea of deliberate intention that is habitual, which stems from rejecting Christ deliberately. This is continuous action, a matter of practice. Now we don't walk along our daily life and "accidentally" fall into a pit called sin. We exercise our will but, the use of the participle clearly shows a ongoing, willful, habitual action. The unrighteous practice sin (1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21); not the righteous, who are born of God. (1 Corinthians 6:11; 1 John 3:9) *Hermeneutics.

If the word 'sanctified' in Hebrews 10:29 is used to describe saved people who lost their salvation as eternal IN-securists teach, then we have a contradiction because the writer of Hebrews in verse 10 said "sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all" (Hebrews 10:10) and in verse 14, we read, "perfected for all time those who are sanctified." (Hebrews 10:14) I've heard eternal IN-securists try to "get around" the truth here by either saying forever doesn't really mean forever or "once for all and for all time" ONLY applies to "the offering of the body of Jesus Christ," but not to the person who is sanctified. Yet in Hebrews 10:10, we clearly read ..WE have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. In Hebrews 10:14, we read - For by one offering He has perfected for all time THOSE who are sanctified. To go from sanctified back to un-sanctified would be in contradiction here.

*NOWHERE in the context does it specifically say the person who "trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant" was "saved" and/or "lost their salvation." The reference to "the blood of the covenant that sanctified him" in verse 29 "on the surface" appears to be referring to a Christian, but this overlooks the fact that the word translated "sanctified" (which is the verb form of the adjective "holy") which means "set apart," and doesn't necessarily refer to salvation.

Strong's Concordance
hagiazó: to make holy, consecrate, sanctify
Original Word: ἁγιάζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: hagiazó
Phonetic Spelling: (hag-ee-ad'-zo)
Definition: to make holy, consecrate, sanctify
Usage: I make holy, treat as holy, set apart as holy, sanctify, hallow, purify.

In 1 Corinthians 7:14, Paul uses it to specifically refer to non-Christians who are "sanctified" or "set apart" by their believing spouse and by this Paul does not mean that they are saved. A non-Christian can be "set apart" from other non-Christians without experiencing salvation as Paul explained. So the word "sanctified" means to be "set apart." If the word "sanctified" simply meant saved, then you would have to say that the seventh day was saved (Genesis 2:3), the tabernacle was saved (Exodus 29:43), Moses saved the people after coming down off the mountain (Exodus 19:14), the priests and the Levites saved themselves (1 Chronicles 15:14), the Father saved the Son (John 10:36), the Son saved Himself (John 17:19) and many other things that do not line up with scripture.

In verse 39, the writer of Hebrews sets up a CONTRAST that makes it clear to me that he was referring to make believers/nominal Christians and not saved people: But WE are not OF THOSE who draw back to perdition, but OF THOSE who believe to the saving of the soul. Those who draw back to perdition do not believe to the saving of the soul and those who believe to the saving of the soul do not draw back to perdition.

So after considering the CONTEXT, it seems most likely that "he was sanctified" should be understood in the sense of someone who had been "set apart" or identified as a professing believer who is among Hebrew Christian believers, but later renounces his identification with those Hebrew believers, by rejecting the "knowledge of the truth" that he had received, and trampling under foot the work and the person of Christ himself. This gives evidence that his identification with the Hebrew Christian community of believers was only superficial and that he was not a genuine believer.
The end of your little arguments here is supposed to be a denial that God blots people out of His Book for sinning, just like I said (you have no place in your system for this dynamic), correct?
LOL!
 

mailmandan

Well-Known Member
Feb 24, 2020
4,443
4,727
113
The Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I see this dynamic alive and well in passages like Romans 11:17-22, Hebrews 10:36-39, Revelation 3:4-5. God doesn't change Malachi 3:6.
In regards to Revelation 3:4-5, Jesus points out the lifeless state of the church in Sardis - "..you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead." This church may have had a name of being alive, but they were spiritually lifeless. In other words, the church was filled with unsaved people going through the motions of religion who needed to wake up and repent IN CONTRAST with a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their garments; and they will walk with Jesus in white.

White garments are mentioned elsewhere in Revelation. The church at Laodicea mentions white garments, that you may be clothed, that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed. (Revelation 3:18) The 24 elders wear white garments. (Revelation 4:4) The martyrs waiting for God’s judgment are given white robes to wear. (Revelation 6:11) The armies appearing with the Messiah also wear white and clean linen. (Revelation 19:14) The great multitude of the saved in Revelation 7:14 wear robes made white in the red blood of the Lamb. The color paradox makes the point and implies that the color white stands for God’s people made spiritually pure and justified by Jesus’ blood. That means the few in Sardis who were given white robes had been made right and just before God.

In Revelation 3:5, we read - "He who overcomes I will never blot out his name from the book of life." The "overcomer" mentioned in this letter to Sardis is the Believer/Christian. Compare this with 1 John 5:4: Everyone who is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith.

In regards to Malachi 3:6, God's character and divine nature doesn't change, but the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law (Hebrews 7:12) and the old covenant has been made obsolete by the new covenant. (Hebrews 8:13) So some things do change.
 
  • Like
Reactions: atpollard

GracePeace

Well-Known Member
May 4, 2021
3,409
675
113
Southwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
In regards to Hebrews 26-39, to "sin willfully" in the Greek carries the idea of deliberate intention that is habitual, which stems from rejecting Christ deliberately. This is continuous action, a matter of practice. Now we don't walk along our daily life and "accidentally" fall into a pit called sin. We exercise our will but, the use of the participle clearly shows a ongoing, willful, habitual action. The unrighteous practice sin (1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21); not the righteous, who are born of God. (1 Corinthians 6:11; 1 John 3:9) *Hermeneutics.

If the word 'sanctified' in Hebrews 10:29 is used to describe saved people who lost their salvation as eternal IN-securists teach, then we have a contradiction because the writer of Hebrews in verse 10 said "sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all" (Hebrews 10:10) and in verse 14, we read, "perfected for all time those who are sanctified." (Hebrews 10:14) I've heard eternal IN-securists try to "get around" the truth here by either saying forever doesn't really mean forever or "once for all and for all time" ONLY applies to "the offering of the body of Jesus Christ," but not to the person who is sanctified. Yet in Hebrews 10:10, we clearly read ..WE have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. In Hebrews 10:14, we read - For by one offering He has perfected for all time THOSE who are sanctified. To go from sanctified back to un-sanctified would be in contradiction here.

*NOWHERE in the context does it specifically say the person who "trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant" was "saved" and/or "lost their salvation." The reference to "the blood of the covenant that sanctified him" in verse 29 "on the surface" appears to be referring to a Christian, but this overlooks the fact that the word translated "sanctified" (which is the verb form of the adjective "holy") which means "set apart," and doesn't necessarily refer to salvation.

Strong's Concordance
hagiazó: to make holy, consecrate, sanctify
Original Word: ἁγιάζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: hagiazó
Phonetic Spelling: (hag-ee-ad'-zo)
Definition: to make holy, consecrate, sanctify
Usage: I make holy, treat as holy, set apart as holy, sanctify, hallow, purify.

In 1 Corinthians 7:14, Paul uses it to specifically refer to non-Christians who are "sanctified" or "set apart" by their believing spouse and by this Paul does not mean that they are saved. A non-Christian can be "set apart" from other non-Christians without experiencing salvation as Paul explained. So the word "sanctified" means to be "set apart." If the word "sanctified" simply meant saved, then you would have to say that the seventh day was saved (Genesis 2:3), the tabernacle was saved (Exodus 29:43), Moses saved the people after coming down off the mountain (Exodus 19:14), the priests and the Levites saved themselves (1 Chronicles 15:14), the Father saved the Son (John 10:36), the Son saved Himself (John 17:19) and many other things that do not line up with scripture.

In verse 39, the writer of Hebrews sets up a CONTRAST that makes it clear to me that he was referring to make believers/nominal Christians and not saved people: But WE are not OF THOSE who draw back to perdition, but OF THOSE who believe to the saving of the soul. Those who draw back to perdition do not believe to the saving of the soul and those who believe to the saving of the soul do not draw back to perdition.

So after considering the CONTEXT, it seems most likely that "he was sanctified" should be understood in the sense of someone who had been "set apart" or identified as a professing believer who is among Hebrew Christian believers, but later renounces his identification with those Hebrew believers, by rejecting the "knowledge of the truth" that he had received, and trampling under foot the work and the person of Christ himself. This gives evidence that his identification with the Hebrew Christian community of believers was only superficial and that he was not a genuine believer.
Anyway, Hebrews 10:36-39 show that endurance is needed specifically because without it "God's Righteous One" will shrink back, and this will make him displeasing to God and God will destroy them. There is then an affirmation that there is a group of "My Righteous Ones" that do fall away to destruction (like the group referred to in Hebrews 6), but then he comforts them (again, as in Hebrews 6) though he speaks that way.
 

GracePeace

Well-Known Member
May 4, 2021
3,409
675
113
Southwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
In regards to Revelation 3:4-5, Jesus points out the lifeless state of the church in Sardis - "..you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead." This church may have had a name of being alive, but they were spiritually lifeless. In other words, the church was filled with unsaved people going through the motions of religion who needed to wake up and repent IN CONTRAST with a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their garments; and they will walk with Jesus in white.

White garments are mentioned elsewhere in Revelation. The church at Laodicea mentions white garments, that you may be clothed, that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed. (Revelation 3:18) The 24 elders wear white garments. (Revelation 4:4) The martyrs waiting for God’s judgment are given white robes to wear. (Revelation 6:11) The armies appearing with the Messiah also wear white and clean linen. (Revelation 19:14) The great multitude of the saved in Revelation 7:14 wear robes made white in the red blood of the Lamb. The color paradox makes the point and implies that the color white stands for God’s people made spiritually pure and justified by Jesus’ blood. That means the few in Sardis who were given white robes had been made right and just before God.

In Revelation 3:5, we read - "He who overcomes I will never blot out his name from the book of life." The "overcomer" mentioned in this letter to Sardis is the Believer/Christian. Compare this with 1 John 5:4: Everyone who is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith.

In regards to Malachi 3:6, God's character and divine nature doesn't change, but the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law (Hebrews 7:12) and the old covenant has been made obsolete by the new covenant. (Hebrews 8:13) So some things do change.
Nope, they are "dead" because they are in sin--as God says "this my son was dead and is alive".
"Awake you that sleepeth and arise from the dead and Christ will give you light."
The issue is sinfulness. They had had White garments but had "defiled" them.
Sin is the reason that they will be "blotted out" as in Exodus 32:33.
God doesn't change Malachi 3:6.
 

mailmandan

Well-Known Member
Feb 24, 2020
4,443
4,727
113
The Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The end of your little arguments here is supposed to be a denial that God blots people out of His Book for sinning, just like I said (you have no place in your system for this dynamic), correct?
LOL!
I can see that everything I explained to you just went right over your head. Because of your sarcasm it's very difficult to take you seriously. You sound like a typical spiritual narcissist who only cares about promoting your agenda and stirring up contention in the process. Good night.
 

GracePeace

Well-Known Member
May 4, 2021
3,409
675
113
Southwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I can see that everything I explained to you just went right over your head. Because of your sarcasm it's very difficult to take you seriously. You sound like a typical spiritual narcissist who only cares about promoting your agenda and stirring up contention in the process.
1. I'm not losing the forest for the trees : the reason I cited those passages wasn't to argue them individually but as proofs that the God Who "doesn't change" Malachi 3:6 blots people out of His Book, during both Old Exodus 32:33 and New Covenant Revelation 3:4-5 times, but that you make no place for that dynamic in your "system". You have actually proven my point here.
2. You accuse anyone who disagrees with you of "narcissism"? Ironic.
3. You haven't made a single substantive argument--as I've shown and anyone can read.
 

GracePeace

Well-Known Member
May 4, 2021
3,409
675
113
Southwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I can see that everything I explained to you just went right over your head. Because of your sarcasm it's very difficult to take you seriously. You sound like a typical spiritual narcissist who only cares about promoting your agenda and stirring up contention in the process. Good night.
I said...
1. I'm not losing the forest for the trees...
...in other words, I think you missed the point.
 

mailmandan

Well-Known Member
Feb 24, 2020
4,443
4,727
113
The Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
So, under the New Covenant, righteousness of faith can be forgotten if people turn from their faith and go into unbelief according to Hebrews 3..
Hebrews 3:8 - Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, In the day of trial in the wilderness, 9 Where your fathers tested Me, tried Me, And saw My works forty years. 10 Therefore I was angry with that generation, And said, 'They always go astray in their heart, And they have not known My ways.' Not descriptive of believers. There is no loss of salvation here. Only a failure to receive it. Verses 18-19 - And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief. That explains the hardened heart. It took them in the opposite direction of God. Heard the truth for a time, but then hardened heart and departing from God became their final answer. Jude 1:5 - The Lord delivered His people (the Israelites) out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe.

Hebrews 3:14 - For we have become [past tense Gk. verb, gegonamen, meaning we have become already] partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end. Notice that this is essentially a repeat of verse 6, where we have read: but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house - whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end. The wording is not - "and you will become partakers of Christ (future indicative) if you (future indicative) hold fast." It is rather - "you have been, and now are, partakers of Christ (demonstrative evidence) if in the future you hold fast to Christ."

The point is that not all of these Hebrews have become partakers in Christ and of course, the only ones in the end who will be identified as those who have become partakers of Christ will have been those who held fast the beginning of their confidence steadfast to the end. What about those faltering Hebrews who depart from God, yet begin with loud confidence and profession of loyalty? But later? Future perseverance is proof of genuine conversion.

In Hebrews 4:1-2, we read - "For indeed the gospel was preached to US as well as to THEM; but the word which THEY heard did not profit THEM, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. For WE who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said: "So I swore in My wrath, 'They shall not enter My rest," although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. Obviously, not all of these Hebrews were genuine believers. Notice that verses 2-3 make a distinction between US who have BELIEVED and do enter that rest and THEM who heard the word but did not mix faith with what they heard and will not enter that rest because of UNBELIEF.
 
  • Like
Reactions: atpollard

mailmandan

Well-Known Member
Feb 24, 2020
4,443
4,727
113
The Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
1. I'm not losing the forest for the trees: the reason I cited those passages wasn't to argue them individually but as proofs that the God Who "doesn't change" Malachi 3:6 blots people out of His Book, during both Old Exodus 32:33 and New Covenant Revelation 3:4-5 times, but that you make no place for that dynamic in your "system". You have actually proven my point here.
You continue to prove my point that everything I explain to you continues to just go right over your head.

In regards to the book of life:

What is the Book of Life? | GotQuestions.org
What is the Book of Life and the Book of the Living? | NeverThirsty

2. You accuse anyone who disagrees with you of "narcissism"? Ironic.
Anyone? No. So far on this forum, just you.

3. You haven't made a single substantive argument--as I've shown and anyone can read.
Actually, I've made multiple substantive arguments, but unfortunately, you just don't have ears to hear.
 

mailmandan

Well-Known Member
Feb 24, 2020
4,443
4,727
113
The Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Anyway, Hebrews 10:36-39 show that endurance is needed specifically because without it "God's Righteous One" will shrink back, and this will make him displeasing to God and God will destroy them. There is then an affirmation that there is a group of "My Righteous Ones" that do fall away to destruction (like the group referred to in Hebrews 6), but then he comforts them (again, as in Hebrews 6) though he speaks that way.
As I already explained in post #63, those who draw back to perdition do not believe to the saving of the soul and those who believe to the saving of the soul do not draw back to perdition. Those who drew back to perdition and did not believe to the saving of the soul were not God's righteous one's and had no endurance. In regards to Hebrews 6, the words, once enlightened - which means to bring to light, to shed light upon or to cause light to shine upon some object, in the sense of illuminating it. John 1:9 describes Jesus, the "true Light," giving light "to every man," but this cannot mean the light of salvation, because not every man is saved. The light either leads to the complete acceptance of Jesus Christ or produces condemnation in those who reject the light.

In regards to partakers of the Holy Spirit, the word translated “partaker” can certainly refer to a saving partaking in Christ, as we read in Hebrews 3:14, yet it can also refer to a less than saving association or participation. See Luke 5:7 and Hebrews 1:9 - "comrades, companions," which describes one who shares with someone else as an associate in an undertaking. These Hebrews who fell away had obviously in some aspect shared in the ministry of the Holy Spirit, but in what way? There are other ministries of the Holy Spirit which precede receiving the indwelling and sealing of the Holy Spirit, which only genuine believers receive.. (Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30)

Those who fall away absolutely could have been affiliated closely with the fellowship of the church. Such people certainly may have experienced sorrow for sin, heard and understood the gospel and have given some assent to it and have become associated with the work of the Holy Spirit while around believers and have tasted the heavenly gift and the powers of the age to come. They may have been exposed to the preaching of the word of God, yet have simply tasted and stopped there. People who have experienced these factors may be genuine Christians, yet these factors alone are not enough to give conclusive evidence that the beginning stages of the Christian life (repentance unto life, regeneration, salvation, justification etc..) have taken place for those who fell away. The experiences in Hebrews 6:4-6 are all preliminary to those decisive beginning stages of becoming a Christian, yet some draw back to perdition after receiving the 'knowledge' of the truth and do not believe to the saving of the soul, as we saw in (Hebrews 10:26-39).

These certain individuals who fall short of obtaining salvation certainly may have become partakers of the Holy Spirit in his pre-salvation ministry, convicting of sin and righteousness and judgment to come by tasting the good word of God and temporarily responded to His drawing power which is intended to ultimately lead sinners to Christ, yet the writer of Hebrews does not use conclusive terms that these individuals were "indwelled by the Holy Spirit" or "sealed by the Holy Spirit" or have "received the Spirit's pledge which is the guarantee of future inheritance." Genuine believers who have believed the gospel are sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession/unto the day of redemption. (Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30)

In regards to tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, they may have tasted in such a way as to give them a distinct impression of what was tasted, yet they still fell away. Inherent in the idea of tasting is the fact that one might or might not decide to accept what is tasted. For example, the same Greek word (geuomai) is used in Matthew 27:34 to say that those crucifying Jesus "offered him wine to drink, mingled with gall; but when he tasted it, he would not drink it." Do we merely "taste" into one Spirit or drink into one Spirit? (1 Corinthians 12:13)

In regards to fall away, in Proverbs 24:16, we read - For a righteous man may fall seven times AND rise again, But the wicked shall fall by calamity. Those who permanently fall away demonstrate they were not truly born again. (1 John 2:19)

In regards to renew them again unto repentance, this does not specify whether the repentance was merely outward or genuine accompanied by saving faith. They have in some sense "repented," there may be sorrow for sins and an attempt to turn from them (self moral-reformation) that non-believers can experience. There is repentance that falls short of salvation, which is clear from Hebrews 12:7 and the reference to Esau, as well as the repentance of Judas Iscariot in Matthew 27:3. Paul refers to a repentance “without regret that leads to salvation,” which shows there is a repentance that does not lead to salvation. As with “belief/faith”, so too with “repentance,” we must always distinguish between what is substantial and results in salvation and what is spurious. Renew them again "unto salvation" would be conclusive evidence for your argument.

In Hebrews 6:7-8, we read - For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; but if it bears thorns and briars, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned. In this metaphor relating to agriculture, those who receive final judgment are compared to land that bears no vegetation or useful fruit, but rather bears thorns and thistles. We see in scripture where good fruit is a sign of true spiritual life and a lack of good fruit is a sign of false believers (Matthew 3:8-10; 7:15-20; 12:33-35) so we have an indication that the trustworthy evidence of one's spiritual condition is the fruit they bear (whether good or bad), suggesting that the writer of Hebrews is talking about people who are not genuine believers.

*Verse 9 sums it up for me. The writer is speaking to those truly saved (refers to them as BELOVED). He says that even though he speaks like this concerning THOSE types of people, He is convinced of better things concerning YOU. Things that ACCOMPANY SALVATION. Thorns and briars and falling away permanently do not accompany salvation and are not fruits worthy of authentic repentance.

It's generally stated by those who believe that salvation can be lost that it can be regained again, yet that would not be the case here if the writer of Hebrews was teaching a loss of salvation. I have heard certain individuals state they know someone who was truly saved, but later lost their salvation, yet only God truly knows the heart of individuals. Certain people "on the surface" may do a good job of looking like the real deal for a while (like Judas Iscariot, who was an unbelieving, unclean devil who betrayed Jesus - John 6:64-71; 13:10-11) yet to the other 11 disciples, he looked like the real deal, but Jesus knew his heart. There are genuine Christians and there are "nominal" Christians. There are genuine believers and there are make believers.
 

GracePeace

Well-Known Member
May 4, 2021
3,409
675
113
Southwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You continue to prove my point that everything I explain to you continues to just go right over your head.

In regards to the book of life:

What is the Book of Life? | GotQuestions.org
What is the Book of Life and the Book of the Living? | NeverThirsty

Anyone? No. So far on this forum, just you.

Actually, I've made multiple substantive arguments, but unfortunately, you just don't have ears to hear.
Now we have an attempt to parse God's Book...

Is it just a coincidence that in both cases men are blotted out for sinning--and that the righteous are repaid eternal life Romans 2:6-16 Galatians 6:6-10?

Of course not.

The one who sins against God is unrighteous and will not inherit life, the doer of good will inherit life.
 

GracePeace

Well-Known Member
May 4, 2021
3,409
675
113
Southwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
As I already explained in post #63, those who draw back to perdition do not believe to the saving of the soul and those who believe to the saving of the soul do not draw back to perdition. Those who drew back to perdition and did not believe to the saving of the soul were not God's righteous one's and had no endurance. In regards to Hebrews 6, the words, once enlightened - which means to bring to light, to shed light upon or to cause light to shine upon some object, in the sense of illuminating it. John 1:9 describes Jesus, the "true Light," giving light "to every man," but this cannot mean the light of salvation, because not every man is saved. The light either leads to the complete acceptance of Jesus Christ or produces condemnation in those who reject the light.

In regards to partakers of the Holy Spirit, the word translated “partaker” can certainly refer to a saving partaking in Christ, as we read in Hebrews 3:14, yet it can also refer to a less than saving association or participation. See Luke 5:7 and Hebrews 1:9 - "comrades, companions," which describes one who shares with someone else as an associate in an undertaking. These Hebrews who fell away had obviously in some aspect shared in the ministry of the Holy Spirit, but in what way? There are other ministries of the Holy Spirit which precede receiving the indwelling and sealing of the Holy Spirit, which only genuine believers receive.. (Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30)

Those who fall away absolutely could have been affiliated closely with the fellowship of the church. Such people certainly may have experienced sorrow for sin, heard and understood the gospel and have given some assent to it and have become associated with the work of the Holy Spirit while around believers and have tasted the heavenly gift and the powers of the age to come. They may have been exposed to the preaching of the word of God, yet have simply tasted and stopped there. People who have experienced these factors may be genuine Christians, yet these factors alone are not enough to give conclusive evidence that the beginning stages of the Christian life (repentance unto life, regeneration, salvation, justification etc..) have taken place for those who fell away. The experiences in Hebrews 6:4-6 are all preliminary to those decisive beginning stages of becoming a Christian, yet some draw back to perdition after receiving the 'knowledge' of the truth and do not believe to the saving of the soul, as we saw in (Hebrews 10:26-39).

These certain individuals who fall short of obtaining salvation certainly may have become partakers of the Holy Spirit in his pre-salvation ministry, convicting of sin and righteousness and judgment to come by tasting the good word of God and temporarily responded to His drawing power which is intended to ultimately lead sinners to Christ, yet the writer of Hebrews does not use conclusive terms that these individuals were "indwelled by the Holy Spirit" or "sealed by the Holy Spirit" or have "received the Spirit's pledge which is the guarantee of future inheritance." Genuine believers who have believed the gospel are sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession/unto the day of redemption. (Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30)

In regards to tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, they may have tasted in such a way as to give them a distinct impression of what was tasted, yet they still fell away. Inherent in the idea of tasting is the fact that one might or might not decide to accept what is tasted. For example, the same Greek word (geuomai) is used in Matthew 27:34 to say that those crucifying Jesus "offered him wine to drink, mingled with gall; but when he tasted it, he would not drink it." Do we merely "taste" into one Spirit or drink into one Spirit? (1 Corinthians 12:13)

In regards to fall away, in Proverbs 24:16, we read - For a righteous man may fall seven times AND rise again, But the wicked shall fall by calamity. Those who permanently fall away demonstrate they were not truly born again. (1 John 2:19)

In regards to renew them again unto repentance, this does not specify whether the repentance was merely outward or genuine accompanied by saving faith. They have in some sense "repented," there may be sorrow for sins and an attempt to turn from them (self moral-reformation) that non-believers can experience. There is repentance that falls short of salvation, which is clear from Hebrews 12:7 and the reference to Esau, as well as the repentance of Judas Iscariot in Matthew 27:3. Paul refers to a repentance “without regret that leads to salvation,” which shows there is a repentance that does not lead to salvation. As with “belief/faith”, so too with “repentance,” we must always distinguish between what is substantial and results in salvation and what is spurious. Renew them again "unto salvation" would be conclusive evidence for your argument.

In Hebrews 6:7-8, we read - For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; but if it bears thorns and briars, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned. In this metaphor relating to agriculture, those who receive final judgment are compared to land that bears no vegetation or useful fruit, but rather bears thorns and thistles. We see in scripture where good fruit is a sign of true spiritual life and a lack of good fruit is a sign of false believers (Matthew 3:8-10; 7:15-20; 12:33-35) so we have an indication that the trustworthy evidence of one's spiritual condition is the fruit they bear (whether good or bad), suggesting that the writer of Hebrews is talking about people who are not genuine believers.

*Verse 9 sums it up for me. The writer is speaking to those truly saved (refers to them as BELOVED). He says that even though he speaks like this concerning THOSE types of people, He is convinced of better things concerning YOU. Things that ACCOMPANY SALVATION. Thorns and briars and falling away permanently do not accompany salvation and are not fruits worthy of authentic repentance.

It's generally stated by those who believe that salvation can be lost that it can be regained again, yet that would not be the case here if the writer of Hebrews was teaching a loss of salvation. I have heard certain individuals state they know someone who was truly saved, but later lost their salvation, yet only God truly knows the heart of individuals. Certain people "on the surface" may do a good job of looking like the real deal for a while (like Judas Iscariot, who was an unbelieving, unclean devil who betrayed Jesus - John 6:64-71; 13:10-11) yet to the other 11 disciples, he looked like the real deal, but Jesus knew his heart. There are genuine Christians and there are "nominal" Christians. There are genuine believers and there are make believers.
The ones who shrink back to destruction are God's Righteous Ones who do not have endurance and who therefore do not inherit what was promised but who in like manner as those Jews who began by being saved by the blood of the lamb by faith and proceeded to baptism in the water and cloud and eating a type of communion... but never inheriting the promised land but falling under God's wrath.

Anyone who reads JUST the Bible, not convoluted "systematic theologies", can see that.

The context is never anyone but believers being warned "if we go on sinning then we're even worse off under the New Covenant than a man would have been under the Old", and "God's Righteous One needs endurance to inherit the promise of eternal life--its not enough to start the race of faith you have to finish it".
 

GRACE ambassador

Well-Known Member
Mar 1, 2021
2,370
1,532
113
71
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Praise The LORD For HIS WORD Of Truth, Rightly Divided!

Instead of "doctrines of church fathers, Lutheranism,
Calvinism, etc, etc, etc." Amen?:

Yes, It Is Biblical Fact That God's Eternal Salvation Is By "GRACE
Through {ONE-Time} faith" In The Correct Gospel FOR Today!:


God's Approval/TWO Gospels In Prophecy vs Mystery

And, Then The INDWELLING Holy Spirit LEADS "students who
Diligently study"
to HIS Eternal Assurance! {aka osas...}:

IF osas is a false doctrine? We Simply have more questions:

(1) "God’s SURE Foundation Has THIS SEAL:

The LORD Knoweth them that Are HIS!..." (2 Timothy 2 : 19 KJB!),
Correct?​

(2) HOW LONG Has "The LORD KNOWN them That Are HIS Own"?
(Ephesians 1 : 4-6 KJB!) = ALWAYS, Correct?​

(3) For those who are LOST, how is it That The LORD Said Unto them:
“I NEVER Knew you”? (Matthew 7 : 21-23 KJB!) = NEVER, Correct?

Conclusion:

Thus, the doctrine of "Christ ONCE {Always?} knew one forgiven And
Eternally
Saved, And, Then when they walked away, He [NEVER knew?]
Did NOT know them Any Longer, and they Became LOST!:

Is NOWHERE found God's Pure And HOLY Scripture, Correct?

More Plain And Clear Relevant Passages:
God's OPERATION On All HIS New-born babes In CHRIST!
God's Eternal Assurance


Salvation is 100 Percent Free, But Eternal Rewards
{incorruptible crown/reigning With HIM!} are 100 percent Earned!

Be Blessed!
 

Eternally Grateful

Well-Known Member
Feb 27, 2020
14,470
8,189
113
58
Columbus, ohio
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Not from what I've seen--again, you read your "not by works but by faith" doctrine into everything.


Well, for everyone who isn't brainwashed with OSAS, we see that the warning is that faith can be lost.
If you think you're going to have salvation without faith that's an "interesting" "take".


Oops! Why does he say a few branches were cut off from wild trees and grafted in to the cultivated? Why not the whole trees? What was it about these branches that made them get grafted in? Paul affirms explicitly that they are grafted in because of "faith"--"you stand by faith". Your system has no place for the Bible though.


So, they had the power to trick God into grafting them in because of their faith... which was spurious... you have a strange "god".
Faith can’t be lost unless the person who is being trusted becomes unfaithful

people Will Always resort to what they truly trust in. They may try different things out. But a dog is always a dog. He will return to his vomit. Well because he is a dog that’s what they do.
 
  • Like
Reactions: mailmandan

GracePeace

Well-Known Member
May 4, 2021
3,409
675
113
Southwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Faith can’t be lost unless the person who is being trusted becomes unfaithful

people Will Always resort to what they truly trust in. They may try different things out. But a dog is always a dog. He will return to his vomit. Well because he is a dog that’s what they do.
The idea that hearts can't change to hearts of unbelief is unbiblical as we are warned that sin "hardens" which can turn the heart unbelieving Hebrews 3:12-13.
The idea children can't "unbecome" children is not biblical either Deuteronomy 32:5.
 

GracePeace

Well-Known Member
May 4, 2021
3,409
675
113
Southwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Faith can’t be lost unless the person who is being trusted becomes unfaithful

people Will Always resort to what they truly trust in. They may try different things out. But a dog is always a dog. He will return to his vomit. Well because he is a dog that’s what they do.
Also the arguments in the reply which this reply of yours is supposed to address were not responded to.