Why Jews And Gentiles Are Kept Separate ??

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Vengle53

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I do laugh at myself at times. But for this time, we're talking about a serious matter. I'm not laughing.





You obviously don't understand what Paul was saying there in Hebrews 6.

How is it you skipped the 2 previous verses that go with that one Hebrews 6:6 verse? Who am I to show you 'how' to study God's Word at your ripe age? You should well know how by now.

Heb 6:4-9
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

Those 2 verses reveal this is about a believer with a definite chosen calling by God, one of His chosen elect servants, not a new babe in Christ, nor just a believer that has a hard time with sin yet still believes on Christ. This appies to someone which God has worked miracles through even, and that person knows it, with no doubts. That's the condition for understanding the next verse...


6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put Him to an open shame.

This is not about little slip ups in small sins all believers may commit after having coming to Christ, and need to repent for. This is about one of His chosen elect turning completely away from Him to follow the world instead. And this world today belongs to the devil (Luke 4). Paul is going to stress that point in the next verses too...


7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.
(KJV)


If you feel this Heb.6 matter applies to yourself (I already know it doesn't), then it would mean you should as a result expect the penalty for falling away under that condition, as given in Heb.6:8, "But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned."

So don't be silly in thinking that applies to the Body of Christ as anything other than a strong warning to stay in Christ Jesus; it's especially for those who have a calling from God as a chosen one, and have evidence of God's works to prove it.



I will respond more later as i need to get over to the hospital and pick up some x-rays.

But you said, "And you just don't get it about Abraham's household either. Hagar and Ishmael were cast out... of Abraham's household, which as an allegory is the opposite of your idea."

Hagar was not mercilessly totally cast off of Abraham as you say. She did and her descendants did receive some mercies of him. You are overlooking those events. And this all corresponds perfectly to what happened to Jerusalem in the first century, for that Jerusalem and her descendants are yet being shown mercy of the greater Abraham, this by virtue of the promise that in Abraham all of the nations of the earth would be blessed.
 

whirlwind

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There are teachers and then...there are teachers:


Romans 2:20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.

1 Corinthians 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.​


Part of our being proven in this flesh life is choosing our teachers. Do they teach using His Word only or do they have a "form of knowledge" only and teach out of their hearts? We must decide. Once we reach a certain point.....


1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of Him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in Him.​


It is obvious to me from reading this thread that that time has not arrived for everyone for their actions show that they do not "abide in Him." We must understand in this walk that there are others "over us." God has appointed them into this position...do we know and esteem them? Are we "at peace?" Ask for Scriptural documentation, question them, learn, teach, discuss but....be at peace. Time is short...we must "abide in Him!"


1 Thessalonians 5:11-13 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do. And we beseech you, brethren, to know them which labour among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you; And to esteem them very highly in love for their work's sake. And be at peace among yourselves.

Hebrews 13:7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.​


.
 

bud02

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I will respond more later as i need to get over to the hospital and pick up some x-rays.

But you said, "And you just don't get it about Abraham's household either. Hagar and Ishmael were cast out... of Abraham's household, which as an allegory is the opposite of your idea."

Hagar was not mercilessly totally cast off of Abraham as you say. She did and her descendants did receive some mercies of him. You are overlooking those events. And this all corresponds perfectly to what happened to Jerusalem in the first century, for that Jerusalem and her descendants are yet being shown mercy of the greater Abraham, this by virtue of the promise that in Abraham all of the nations of the earth would be blessed.

Lets look at what the LORD said to Hagar
Gen 16:8-9

"Return to your mistress and submit to her" says the LORD
 

veteran

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Then it seems that we do not think as much differently about the subject as I have at times here thought.

Per my post (#51) I explained how Paul uses the allagory of Hagar to show that the promises were never made to the flesh. And if not made to the flesh then neither are they passed along by the lineage of the flesh.

No insult intended, but no, we're both still pretty far apart in understanding the matter of The Promise and flesh Israel's relationship. Flesh Israel has always had a relationship in The Promise to Abraham.

Rom 9:3-16
3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, Who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

Paul declares through whom The Promise of Salvation came through in the above, i.e., flesh Israel. The covenants and law also came through them. But the Promise by Faith was always given first. The law and Old Covenant was given only to point to the Promise by Faith on Christ.

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Notice Paul did not just throw flesh Israel away when he said that above. Ishmael was Abraham's seed also, but not the seed of the Promise, which was to come through his other son Isaac.

Paul is giving the concept what some call "spiritual Israel" in that, since children of Faith are 'counted' for the seed of Isaac in the Promise, and that can include anyone in that Faith. But Paul is still... keeping that Promise attached to God's concept of His Israel, and His promises to Israel.

One of the main driving forces among Ishmael's children today against Israel and Christianity, is that they claim the birthright of the firstborn through Abraham, and claim Israel stole it from them. But God's Birthright Promise, which is about His Salvation, was to come through Isaac, and by that family The Promise would then go to all others, and both together, believers of both flesh Israel and flesh Gentiles would be 'counted' as the seed of Promise, i.e., Abraham's children (Gal.3).

So we cannot just throw God's Israel away like a dusty old hat. The Promise came through flesh Israel, and it stayed with believing flesh Israel, and believing flesh Gentiles were brought into it by Faith also. It never meant God's promises to the seed of Israel ended by The Promise going to Gentiles also. The new "nation" Christ said He would move His vineyard to that would bring forth its fruits is still His Israel, but believing Israel in a new location involving the believing remnant of flesh Israel scattered among the Gentiles, along with believing Gentiles. Both have become one, Christians, which means a follower of Christ.

Now Paul is going to explain how that believing Israel as the flesh seed of Promise is still important to God in His Salvation...

9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.
10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of Him That calleth;)
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For He saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God That sheweth mercy.
(KJV)


How is it that God loved Jacob, but hated Esau, even before they were born? (see Malachi) It's about God's calling and election. When we go questioning why God chose the seed of Israel over others in His Salvation, we begin to question God Himself.

Paul doesn't stop with that idea of a spiritual Israel, as farther down in Rom.9 he quotes from the prophet Hosea which was given especially to the House of Joseph under Ephraim, i.e., the House of Israel (ten lost tribes)...

Rom 9:22-26
22 What if God, willing to shew His wrath, and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom He hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 As He saith also in Osee, I will call them My people, which were not My people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not My people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
(KJV)


God was longsuffering with the seed of Israel in OT times, so as to bring forth the vessels of mercy He had afore prepared for His Glory, not just of believing Israel, but believing Gentiles also. In Hosea, God gave Hosea to marry a harlot and name his children names to show how Israel had rebelled against Him. Understanding the Book of Hosea is very important to grasp what all Paul is pointing to here in Rom.9.

Jezreel (God sows) was the first name put for the ten tribed house of Israel, how God would cease them from being a nation in the north. God scattered the ten tribes out of the land first, and they lost their heritage as Israel. Even the Jews lost them. The second child of Hosea was to be named Loruhamah (not pitied), to show how God had removed His mercy from the house of Israel. But He kept Judah at Jerusalem intact still. Then the third child of Hosea was named Loammi (not my people), to represent God literally divorcing the house of Israel as their God.

Then God said this about the ten tribed house of Israel, which is where Paul was quoting directly from in Hosea (Osee)...

Hosea 1:10-11
10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, "Ye are not My people", there it shall be said unto them, "Ye are the sons of the living God."

If you'll notice, that's the birthright Promise God gave to Abraham involving the Promise by Faith. Connected with the Promise by Faith is the promise to Abraham that his seed would be as many as the stars and sands of the sea. That's about the innumberable seed of Jacob that have come to Christ, and the innumerable seed of Gentiles that have also come to Christ. The "children of Israel" part is about a flesh seed group of Israelites involving the scattered ten tribes of Israel, for that's who this prophecy through Hosea was especially about. But there's a final part of the prophecy yet to be fulfilled today...

11 Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel.
(KJV)


The final part is the gathering of the children of Israel (ten tribe house of Israel) and the children of Judah (house of Judah) back together, appointing themselves one Head (Christ Jesus), with all believing Gentiles with them. And then truly, that will bring to pass that name meaning of Jezreel as 'God sows'. That same Message is given in Jer.31:27 and Zech.10:9. Now since the children of Judah represent believing flesh Jews, then does that children of Israel part put for the ten tribes also mean a flesh seed? Yes. Remember back in Rom.9:24 Paul made a distinction with believing Jews and believing Gentiles, though both are to become one 'spiritually' under Christ Jesus.

You see, the covenants of promise and God's birthright blessings in The Promise to Abraham still very much belong to His chosen seed today. It's simply that the majority of that believing seed as Loammi (not my people) was scattered long ago among the Gentiles, and have become as Gentiles, together with Gentiles believing on The Saviour in the new lands where Christ moved His 'vineyard' to. They have become Ammi again (My people). And those promises to Israel involves God's blessings that go with The Promise, which was first manifested historically in the Christian West with Christ's Church.



 

veteran

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I'm reposting this so you don't miss it veteran

I don't exactly know what point you are attempting to make but I have no problem with your presentation yet. But the promise made to Abraham did not just speak to the physical seed of Abraham but to all the nations of the earth. The point that is so often missed is the two seeds "metaphorically" the physical seed of Abraham and the Spiritual seed "promise" Romans 9:6 Matthew 3:9 If you keep this in mind while reading the OT it is clear that it speaks of two Israels one of the "promise / Spirit, and one of the flesh / physical. Thus Paul says all Israel is not Israel.
And as I pointed out the promise was not just to the descendants of Abraham but to all men. Gen 12:3 ....... Gen 22:18

That's where we differ, because we cannot throw God's concept of His Israel away with the unbelievers of flesh Israel. A remnant of believing flesh Israel continued in His Plan, which is what all the prophets and Apostles show, including our Lord Jesus Christ. If you'll cover Romans 9 again, you'll see how Apostle Paul did not throw away literal Israel when teaching the spiritual seed concept that allows Gentiles to be included. You should actual begin to see... how Christ's Church is now God's Israel, of both believing flesh Israelites and flesh Gentiles.

And then, if you actually go back in the Old Testament Books about God's birthright promises that He gave to Abraham at the same time with The Promise by Faith, you should begin to see how that was fulfilled with Christ's Church in the west first after His crucifixion.

And nor can we use God's birthright promise to Abraham that a seed would come out of his loins as many as the stars and sands of the sea to mean just the 'spiritual Israel' concept. Here's why...


Gen 28:3-4
3 And God Almighty bless thee, and make thee fruitful, and multiply thee, that thou mayest be a multitude of people;
4 And give thee the blessing of Abraham, to thee, and to thy seed with thee; that thou mayest inherit the land wherein thou art a stranger, which God gave unto Abraham.
(KJV)


Gen 35:11-12
11 And God said unto him, I am God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins;
12 And the land which I gave Abraham and Isaac, to thee I will give it, and to thy seed after thee will I give the land.
(KJV)

That's was to Jacob. Do you not see that birthright to Abraham about flesh seed going to Jacob, and Jacob was to become "a nation" and "a company of nations"?


Gen 48:19-20
19 And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations.
20 And he blessed them that day, saying, In thee shall Israel bless, saying, God make thee as Ephraim and as Manasseh: and he set Ephraim before Manasseh.
(KJV)

That was about God's birthright promises to Abraham transferred from Jacob to Ephraim.


Gen 32:12
12 And thou saidst, I will surely do thee good, and make thy seed as the sand of the sea, which cannot be numbered for multitude.
(KJV)

That's Jacob praying to God in claiming God's birthright promises to him.


Isa 10:22
22 For though thy people Israel be as the sand of the sea, yet a remnant of them shall return: the consumption decreed shall overflow with righteousness.
(KJV)


Isa 48:17-19
17 Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy God Which teacheth thee to profit, Which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.
18 O that thou hadst hearkened to My commandments! then had thy peace been as a river, and thy righteousness as the waves of the sea:
19 Thy seed also had been as the sand, and the offspring of thy bowels like the gravel thereof; his name should not have been cut off nor destroyed from before Me.
(KJV)


Jer 33:22
22 As the host of heaven cannot be numbered, neither the sand of the sea measured: so will I multiply the seed of David My servant, and the Levites that minister unto Me.
(KJV)


Hosea 1:10
10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not My people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.
(KJV)


Rom 9:27-28
27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
28 For He will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
(KJV)


Heb 11:11-12
11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged Him faithful Who had promised.
12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.
(KJV)


That promise of seed as many of the stars and sands of the sea was especially to the seed of Israel. And it happenned in OT times like God's Word declares, and as Apostle Paul declares in relation to the New Covenat Jesus Christ.


Now this promise is fulfilled and spoken of in Danial. As you know veteran I believe Dan 9:27 to be fulfilled "the 70th week" at the calling of Paul. Salvation was presented "complete" at the death and resurrection of Christ. And for the several years after words it was preached to Israel alone, until Paul received his charge to go to the Gentiles.

So the scriptures are true Gen 12:3 Gen 22:18 Dan 9:24 Dan 9:27 .....the covenant made by Jesus, not some future AC. The 70th week has been fulfilled. Just as the scriptures and promise to Abraham say.

I don't care to get into the Daniel matter with you anymore. And no, I do not see Daniel's final 70th week as fulfilled yet. Nor did our Lord Jesus fulfill everything written in the prophets by His crucifixion. Still quite a bit yet to come, which is why Peter said this...

2 Pet 3:1-2
1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:
2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:
(KJV)





 

veteran

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I will respond more later as i need to get over to the hospital and pick up some x-rays.

But you said, "And you just don't get it about Abraham's household either. Hagar and Ishmael were cast out... of Abraham's household, which as an allegory is the opposite of your idea."

Hagar was not mercilessly totally cast off of Abraham as you say. She did and her descendants did receive some mercies of him. You are overlooking those events. And this all corresponds perfectly to what happened to Jerusalem in the first century, for that Jerusalem and her descendants are yet being shown mercy of the greater Abraham, this by virtue of the promise that in Abraham all of the nations of the earth would be blessed.

I've not overlooked how God promised Hagar that He would make Ishmael a great people, and that 12 princes would come out of his loins. That simply wasn't the subject we were talking about from Galatians 4, remember? Got to stay focused brother. Ishmael grew up in the wilderness of Paran (Gen.21). And his mother Hagar gave him an Egyptian wife. They were out of Abraham's household then.

And it's most of Ishmael's people that are of the bondwoman in relation to flesh Jerusalem, because the majority of them have not sought Christ Jesus, The Promise to Abraham by Faith. As long as they refuse Christ Jesus, they are cut off from Abraham in the spiritual sense. They're in the same boat with unbelieving Israel.

Got to let the chips fall where they may, remember?
 

Vengle53

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I've not overlooked how God promised Hagar that He would make Ishmael a great people, and that 12 princes would come out of his loins. That simply wasn't the subject we were talking about from Galatians 4, remember? Got to stay focused brother. Ishmael grew up in the wilderness of Paran (Gen.21). And his mother Hagar gave him an Egyptian wife. They were out of Abraham's household then.

And it's most of Ishmael's people that are of the bondwoman in relation to flesh Jerusalem, because the majority of them have not sought Christ Jesus, The Promise to Abraham by Faith. As long as they refuse Christ Jesus, they are cut off from Abraham in the spiritual sense. They're in the same boat with unbelieving Israel.

Got to let the chips fall where they may, remember?


Once you grasp what Paul says on the subject you will realize that it was only indirectly that promises and
such were passed through the flesh and that only until Christ. That is why Paul said "to who pertain".



What was passed by the flesh was really only the persons, some who remained children of the flesh and some who would be children of the promise. But the promises were given always by the spirit and of God's choosing.



Now see if you can get this: Though the children of the promise were passed by the flesh, the promises themselves came by spirit. So once the purpose of the children of promise being passed along through the flesh reached its fulfillment in Christ, then, from that point forward there is no more dependency on the flesh at all.

Now the promises are able to be shared with children of the promise (God's elect) out of all nations, not dependent on anyone's fleshly lineage..

I know that is seems rather complex but it is not. Try to understand it first, then if you don't want to accept it toss it away.

 

bud02

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The Lord has hid n us in the cleft of His Hand. For a long time I cried to the Lord where are my brothers?
Its so nice to see them being reveled where ever I go.
 

Vengle53

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I'm reposting this so you don't miss it veteran



I don't exactly know what point you are attempting to make but I have no problem with your presentation yet. But the promise made to Abraham did not just speak to the physical seed of Abraham but to all the nations of the earth. The point that is so often missed is the two seeds "metaphorically" the physical seed of Abraham and the Spiritual seed "promise" Romans 9:6 Matthew 3:9 If you keep this in mind while reading the OT it is clear that it speaks of two Israels one of the "promise / Spirit, and one of the flesh / physical. Thus Paul says all Israel is not Israel.
And as I pointed out the promise was not just to the descendants of Abraham but to all men. Gen 12:3 ....... Gen 22:18

Now this promise is fulfilled and spoken of in Danial. As you know veteran I believe Dan 9:27 to be fulfilled "the 70th week" at the calling of Paul. Salvation was presented "complete" at the death and resurrection of Christ. And for the several years after words it was preached to Israel alone, until Paul received his charge to go to the Gentiles.

So the scriptures are true Gen 12:3 Gen 22:18 Dan 9:24 Dan 9:27 .....the covenant made by Jesus, not some future AC. The 70th week has been fulfilled. Just as the scriptures and promise to Abraham say.

Acts 9:15
[sup]15[/sup] But the Lord said to him, “Go, for he is a chosen vessel of Mine to bear My name before Gentiles, kings, and the children of Israel. [sup]16[/sup] For I will show him how many things he must suffer for My name’s sake.”

And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.
In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice.

Acts 10:44-45


I just wanted to say that I agree with you bud02.

At the half way point of the 70th week sacrifice and offerring ceased due to Jesus' sacrifice.

The 70th week ended when the prophecy of Joel was fulfilled upon those gathered at penticost some three and one half years later.

That was when the New Covenant came into full force.

These are good points and well related to the subject of this thread IF we understand.

A time or two I have deliberately sidelined just to try and sooth the spirit a bit.

But for the most part when some think I am off subject it is just that they are having trouble connecting the dots as I try to help them clear away views that i discern are preventing them from being able to see when I do speak directly on subject.


I have also been interested in psychology for more than a decade now and I want to tell all here that I believe Bible discussion such as we are doing here to be the healthiest exercise anyone could ever engage their mind in.

Even our differences on here are good things. If we are willing to step back and look at ourselves too as we go along here, it reveals much to our self that we can work on. And I hope we all delight in that.
 

bud02

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Even our differences on here are good things. If we are willing to step back and look at ourselves too as we go along here, it reveals much to our self that we can work on. And I hope we all delight in that.

I would never think other wise.
Proverbs 27:17
 

Vengle53

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I would never think other wise.
Proverbs 27:17


I do believe that.

Here is a little tid bit on our subject:

Romans 11:11 begins: "I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall?" This needs to be revised in our Bibles. I'll tell you why I say that.

When we think of it as asking "that they should fall" it gives the impression only that Paul is asking if they should stumble that they be completely deserted and left to be destroyed. But that is not the point of Paul's question.

The Greek word translated "fall" there can also be translated as "fail". And the KJV does in places translate as "fail".

Ponder the significance of that. There is a subtle difference in what that small change allows us to see about Paul's question there.

Paul is asking, "Do you think that God allowed them to stumble just so they would fail?" What Paul says next is simply that it was not God's will for them to fail. God is not deliberately trying to make them fail. Their "fall" serves a good purpose. the second word "fall" is a different Greek word.

Now see the subtle difference: The emphasis of the word "fall" comes across as being on their destruction, as it carries no hint of their trying not to fall.

One can only fail if one tries. The word "fail" places the emphasis on the one's of them that are trying. The emphasis of the word "fail" is on their helping them not to fail rather than on their destruction. The contrast is between God's willingness to help them not to fail at gaining salvation or not helping them so that they do fail. Paul wanted the Gentile to see that God's focus is on helping them even as it was for themselves. That way the Gentiles would be moved to participate in helping to save.

The next occurence should be "fall", however as that fits the contrast. What we have is a problem with thought conveyance from one language to another. And as I said, the KJV does at time translate that Greek word as "fail".

And of course we know what God's will for them is in that regard: 1 Timothy 2:3- 4 "This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
who would have all men to be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth." (ASV)

I thought you might enjoy that little tweak of understanding. Every little bit that is accurately attained helps somewhere, somehow.

<G4098>pipto -- ...
probably akin to 4072 through the idea of alighting; to fall (literally or figuratively): KJV -- fail, fall (down), light on.

The second occurence of "fall" is paraptoma -- from 3895; a side-slip (lapse or deviation), i.e. (unintentional) error or (wilful) transgression: KJV -- fall, fault, offence, sin, trespass.



 

Vengle53

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I should have added that this is how I exegesis that verse:

Romans 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fail? God forbid: but rather through their tripping up salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

It bothers me to see translators take two different Greek words as in that verse and use the same English word to translate the both. That defeats the reason they were different words in the Greek.

 

bud02

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Very nice study, I have not dug into it as deeply as you have but I come to the same conclusion. The Jews are not intentionally blinded by God as many dispensasonalist teach. Plus you can find no other scripture to support such a thing as God preventing true seekers of the truth from finding Him. You expanded the true meaning of the verse very well, I'll remember it.
Greek translation fail or fall and compare the use of the Greek in other text. I do this for other verses but never this one thank you.
 

Vengle53

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Very nice study, I have not dug into it as deeply as you have but I come to the same conclusion. The Jews are not intentionally blinded by God as many dispensasonalist teach. Plus you can find no other scripture to support such a thing as God preventing true seekers of the truth from finding Him. You expanded the true meaning of the verse very well, I'll remember it.
Greek translation fail or fall and compare the use of the Greek in other text. I do this for other verses but never this one thank you.

Amen on your statement that God does not ever prevent true seekers of the truth from finding Him !!! Such a thing is so contrary to who He is and what He says that it shocks me people could think such a thing of Him.

When I said of that subtle contrast, "The emphasis of the word "fail" is on their helping them not to fail rather than on their destruction. The contrast is between God's willingness to help them not to fail at gaining salvation or not helping them so that they do fail.'"

Of course we know it is not God's will that they fail, at least if we know God's love we know that.

And Paul told us elsewhere something about why they did slip up: Romans 10:3 "For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God."

But does that mean that Paul thinks they will all be saved?

Paul uses the MAY and MIGHT words in many places when he talks about this subject: Romans 10:1 "Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved."
And that is God's grace speaking though Paul.

For Paul to pray that way would make very little sense if he knew they would be saved. He plainly said that was his "hearts desire". And so is it God's:

Ezekiel 18:32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.
Ezekiel 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
 

Vengle53

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Where I agree with veteran is that there are the elect who have already attained and those who were blinded as Paul speaks at Romans 11:7..

These are two clearly different groups based on God's giving it to them, or, not giving it to them to understand: Matthew 13:10- 11 "And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given."

So then how do we understand the rest of what Paul says? It is all given us in Matthew chapter 13.

Those who were let go into their blindness are the wheat in the field overgrown with tares. When the servants came to the householder declaring to him that they had found the field to be full of tares, the householder told them to leave the tares in place and let the wheat and the tares grow together. That act corresponds to God's giving the wheat-like ones in the field blindness. How so? For one thing God recognized that the wheat was not yet mature enough to be harvested. Additionally, the tares had their roots so intertwined with the wheats roots that to pull the tares out would damage the more delicate roots of the wheat.

Who were these servants that came to the master with the news of the tares? Those are God's elect. God's elect are not pictured in Matthew 13 as wheat in that field, rather they are the servants appointed over the field to care for it just as Jerusalem was the servant appointed over the field of Israel to care for it.

I believe that the angels who do the reaping are these same servants but now having themselves matured to sainthood in Christ. They were never the wheat in that field shown at Matthew 13.

I will tell you why I began investigating this. Jehovah's Witnesses teach that (or at least used to teach) that the other sheep of John 10:16 only appear after the Great Tribulation. That teaching always knawed at my gut. I knew in my heart that the other sheep had to be there from the beginning of the church.

They were there. And the field with the tares sown in was right inside the church from the beginning. The elect were charged with teaching the wheat and the tares together instead of pulling the tares out. That is why we see so many disputes and problems reported in the congregations.

Jehovah's Witnesses taught that the field was only being harvested to find more elect until they discovered the great crowd of other sheep around 1932 or so. But that makes no sense to me at all from my own study of the scriptures.

The other sheep have always been there in the congregations along with the tares. But the parable of Matthew 13 says that at the conclusion of this world then they would be seperated. They were all taught together both wheat and weeds all of these centuries of the church's existence. Right with in the church the tares have been being identified which is what binding them in bundles mean. And having been identified, during the great tribulation the tares will be done away with. Therefore the congregation that we see come out of the Great Tribulation will be a Great crowd of wheat, having no tares in it.

The choosing of the elect is strictly done by God and they are called by means of the Holy Spirit. But the elect then father the wheat in the field as it grows. God makes the wheat grow as he nourishes it through the elect, for the elect do not speak in their own power, but in the power of the Holy Spirit.. That is what Paul was doing toward a congregation mixed of wheat and tares at Galatians 4:19.

I should add one more thing to help those that realize the other sheep were brought into the fold In Ephesians chapter two:

Once Jesus had taken that handwritten document consisting of decrees and written against the flesh out of the way by nailing it to the cross (or, stake) with himself, from then forward the wheat that were bound and blinded of tares that they listened to and were influenced by, they, even the Jews that were blinded (along with the Gentiles yet to open their eyes) were brought together in Christ to receive help through the elect of God. And what we see Paul doing at Romans 11 is making sure that now that the wall had been torn down by cancellation of that first covenant, his blind Jewish brothers would be given their place in the field to be cared for.
 

veteran

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Once you grasp what Paul says on the subject you will realize that it was only indirectly that promises and
such were passed through the flesh and that only until Christ. That is why Paul said "to who pertain".

What was passed by the flesh was really only the persons, some who remained children of the flesh and some who would
be children of the promise. But the promises were given always by the spirit and of God's choosing.


Yes, God's Promised Salvation through The Saviour was always of Faith and is by the Spirit, to be fully manifested in the world to come. But that didn't change what God promised to flesh Israel during this world. That's the part that's missing in your understanding. Because of not understanding that point, you'll never be able to understand how God kept His promises to Israel even to the unbelieving Jews today that formed the state of Israel in 1948. He is still keeping His promises per Scripture involving the House of Judah today, which includes many Jews who still refuse Christ Jesus. So how is that, if they are cut off?


Now see if you can get this: Though the children of the promise were passed by the flesh, the promises themselves came by
spirit. So once the purpose of the children of promise being passed along through the flesh reached its fulfillment in Christ,
then, from that point forward there is no more dependency on the flesh at all.


That doesn't account for the existence of Judah in the holy land today as the nation of Israel, a fulfillment of God's promise specifically to them per Jeremiah 24, and our Lord's parable of the fig tree in Matt.24. How do you explain that then?


Now the promises are able to be shared with children of the promise (God's elect) out of all nations, not dependent on anyone's fleshly lineage..

I know that is seems rather complex but it is not. Try to understand it first, then if you don't want to accept it toss it away.

It's not complex at all, IF God's birthright to Israel per the OT Books is first understood prior to what Paul taught in Romans and Galatians. Trying to use Paul's Epistles only about it will end up in confusion and doctrines of men, because Paul actually was teaching the matter from the OT Books. Without study of both together, it would be like trying to learn Calculus before learning basic math, which is the situation you appear to be in about this.

 

veteran

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Where I agree with veteran is that there are the elect who have already attained and those who were blinded as Paul speaks at Romans 11:7..

These are two clearly different groups based on God's giving it to them, or, not giving it to them to understand: Matthew 13:10- 11 "And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given."

But that involves Christ's Church per the New Testament also.

See Ezekiel 44 about the Levites who went astray when the house of Israel went astray. They will still minister during Christ's future Milennium reign and Sanctuary. They will be keepers of the house, and will bear their iniquity. They will minister to the people, but not allowed to come near Christ. Those represent called overseers of God's Church in both OT and NT times that were deceived.

What Apostle Paul is revealing in Romans 11 about literal Israel is also about the deceived in Christ's Church also. The blindness applies to many of those who have believed on Christ too that are deceived today, because the ten tribes were scattered among the Gentiles and became as Gentiles among them.

When our Lord Jesus Christ does return, many brethren of both believing Israel and believing Gentiles will be in shame. The reason is because of that blindness put upon them to not realize the first messiah coming will be false, and they will fall away to that "another Jesus" instead of waiting for Christ's true coming later. It is not Christ's enemies that will want for the hills and rocks to fall on them because of shame. It will be especially those the five foolish virgins that believed but were deceived.

This is why I spend so much time covering the Biblical metaphors about being 'with child', and the ten virgins parable, and the spiritual harlot analogies. It's not about the wicked who refuse The Father and His Son. It's about those who believe, but allow themselves to be deceived by the tares that have crept in among God's people.

And treating the final "one week" of Daniel's 70 weeks as fulfilled already, is a sign of a tare teaching to lead into deception.


 

Vengle53

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But that involves Christ's Church per the New Testament also.

See Ezekiel 44 about the Levites who went astray when the house of Israel went astray. They will still minister during Christ's future Milennium reign and Sanctuary. They will be keepers of the house, and will bear their iniquity. They will minister to the people, but not allowed to come near Christ. Those represent called overseers of God's Church in both OT and NT times that were deceived.

What Apostle Paul is revealing in Romans 11 about literal Israel is also about the deceived in Christ's Church also. The blindness applies to many of those who have believed on Christ too that are deceived today, because the ten tribes were scattered among the Gentiles and became as Gentiles among them.

When our Lord Jesus Christ does return, many brethren of both believing Israel and believing Gentiles will be in shame. The reason is because of that blindness put upon them to not realize the first messiah coming will be false, and they will fall away to that "another Jesus" instead of waiting for Christ's true coming later. It is not Christ's enemies that will want for the hills and rocks to fall on them because of shame. It will be especially those the five foolish virgins that believed but were deceived.

This is why I spend so much time covering the Biblical metaphors about being 'with child', and the ten virgins parable, and the spiritual harlot analogies. It's not about the wicked who refuse The Father and His Son. It's about those who believe, but allow themselves to be deceived by the tares that have crept in among God's people.

And treating the final "one week" of Daniel's 70 weeks as fulfilled already, is a sign of a tare teaching to lead into deception.


Pehaps then I am wrong that none of the elect were ever wheat in that field. And of course these first fruits were mingled among the other sheep as a result of the ten tribe kingdom having been mixed into their seed?

Perhaps where I error is that I have ommitted Jesus as beginning the harvest of the first fruits who would then also from that point forward in his stead harvest both more first fruits and tend the other sheep patiently and gently over a longer period of time until they might also be freed from the tares?

1 Corinthians 4:1 "Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God."

Fascinating !!!

Your thoughts please?

This puts me in mind of an OT account that shows that when the lost sheep of the house of Israel would be brought out of the nations to be gathered in Christ, the valuable things of the nations would come with them as spoil.

But I do know that the other sheep who have not the higher calling to rule with Christ had to be always there and certainly never neglected by the church as JW teachings (missing something) made it seem.

I could always sense something was missing and the Holy Spirit kept touching me telling me not to sleep and so miss what they were missing.
 

Vengle53

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Another place where I agree with you in respects Veteran is what you are saying about Ezekiel 44.

Matthew 13:51 Jesus saith unto them, Have ye understood all these things? They say unto him, Yea, Lord.
52 Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old.

In an earlier post I said that I do not see myself as anything special. I said I do not see myself as fit to touch the utensils of those with the higher calling.

I am not trying to usurp anyone. I just want to know. The desire to know burns in me.

I hate untruth. I abhor untruth even in myself and I know it is there. I war against that untruth in me.

I have to die anyway in this life. I just as well should die having left no stone unturned, for as I have to die anyway, I would at least die having understood.

And any human that is offended by that, matter not what they blow their trumpet proclaiming their status to be, I know is caught in their own struggle to see and understand. I have given up the idea of always expecting men in the flesh to judge me rightly. It matters not to me that they judge me, for though I do try to judge myself I too at times wrongly judge myself.

And so it is that on one hand Paul said that if we would judge ourselves (1Cor 11:31) we would not be judged, but then elsewhere he proclaims (the gist of which is), 'It is a small matter that anyone judge me, for I do not even judge myself.' (1Cor 4:3)

I know that there is one that will judge us and this I see as more import, (Romans 14:13) "Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way."

I should add that it is my opinion that those who would teach that all in Christ are rulers and priests with Christ as though anything otherwise would be partiality are merely yet struggling with their own pride. There cannot be "all chiefs and no indians" in any workable government. And it is not partiality on God's part to choose the most humble and the most qualified among us to help us.

Matthew 23:8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.
11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.
12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.

1 Corinthians 15:9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.

Ephesians 3:8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach

Luke 9:48 And said unto them, Whosoever shall receive this child in my name receiveth me: and whosoever shall receive me receiveth him that sent me: for he that is least among you all, the same shall be great.
 

Vengle53

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Yes, God's Promised Salvation through The Saviour was always of Faith and is by the Spirit, to be fully manifested in the world to come. But that didn't change what God promised to flesh Israel during this world. That's the part that's missing in your understanding. Because of not understanding that point, you'll never be able to understand how God kept His promises to Israel even to the unbelieving Jews today that formed the state of Israel in 1948. He is still keeping His promises per Scripture involving the House of Judah today, which includes many Jews who still refuse Christ Jesus. So how is that, if they are cut off?

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I do not see where he ever made promises to the flesh but that he put conditions on them they did not abide. Perhaps you would be kind enough to give me a precise example of where he did?

And what we see with our eyes of flesh, is flesh. The things seen we are clearly told are temporal. (2 Corinthians 4:18)


veteran said:
That doesn't account for the existence of Judah in the holy land today as the nation of Israel, a fulfillment of God's promise specifically to them per Jeremiah 24, and our Lord's parable of the fig tree in Matt.24. How do you explain that then?

I am not so certain that we can really prove that is actually Judah there today. But even if we were able to it is all part of the temporal things seen. You would have to prove to me that God is going to use this flesh at all. So please present those things and I will consider them.


veteran said:
It's not complex at all, IF God's birthright to Israel per the OT Books is first understood prior to what Paul taught in Romans and Galatians. Trying to use Paul's Epistles only about it will end up in confusion and doctrines of men, because Paul actually was teaching the matter from the OT Books. Without study of both together, it would be like trying to learn Calculus before learning basic math, which is the situation you appear to be in about this.

I agree with what you say there but it is not at all that I don't look to the OT as you say, but that you and I see different things about the very same passages when we do.

That does not need be a bad thing. Let's see if between what we both see, we both can refine our understanding a bit. Let's try to let "Iron sharpen iron".