Why Jews And Gentiles Are Kept Separate ??

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

bud02

New Member
Aug 14, 2010
727
12
0
Isn't it interesting Walking in Grace. I see this all the time, more so lately.
As soon as the bread is delivered in the Spirit the birds come flocking in to rob the bread from from the childrens mouths.
 

veteran

New Member
Aug 6, 2010
6,509
212
0
Southeast USA
I should have added that this is how I exegesis that verse:

Romans 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fail? God forbid: but rather through their tripping up salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

It bothers me to see translators take two different Greek words as in that verse and use the same English word to translate the both. That defeats the reason they were different words in the Greek.


Rom 11:11
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
(KJV)

In the majority KJV NT cases, that Greek word 'pipto' was translated as to fall down, which goes with the idea of 'stumbled' in that verse. So what's the BIG problem? That's easy to understand; no need to try and make a religion out of it (which is what men's traditions do).


But we cannot just leave that matter of Israel's stumbling at that, because in that same Rom.11 chapter Paul first gave the following Truth about a bellieving Seed of flesh Israel...


Rom 11:4-7
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to Myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
(KJV)

What "election" is Paul talking about there? An elect remnant of the Seed of Israel. That was not by Israel's works, but by God's Grace. And who can go against God in that? Nobody.


 

bud02

New Member
Aug 14, 2010
727
12
0
Rom 11:4-7
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to Myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
(KJV)

What "election" is Paul talking about there? An elect remnant of the Seed of Israel. That was not by Israel's works, but by God's Grace. And who can go against God in that? Nobody.

FYI that is how we all receive salvation.

Ephesians 2
[sup]4[/sup] But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, [sup]5[/sup] even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), [sup]6[/sup] and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, [sup]7[/sup] that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. [sup]8[/sup] For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, [sup]9[/sup] not of works, lest anyone should boast. [sup]10[/sup] For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
 

veteran

New Member
Aug 6, 2010
6,509
212
0
Southeast USA
Pehaps then I am wrong that none of the elect were ever wheat in that field. And of course these first fruits were mingled among the other sheep as a result of the ten tribe kingdom having been mixed into their seed?

Perhaps where I error is that I have ommitted Jesus as beginning the harvest of the first fruits who would then also from that point forward in his stead harvest both more first fruits and tend the other sheep patiently and gently over a longer period of time until they might also be freed from the tares?

1 Corinthians 4:1 "Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God."

Fascinating !!!

Your thoughts please?

This puts me in mind of an OT account that shows that when the lost sheep of the house of Israel would be brought out of the nations to be gathered in Christ, the valuable things of the nations would come with them as spoil.

But I do know that the other sheep who have not the higher calling to rule with Christ had to be always there and certainly never neglected by the church as JW teachings (missing something) made it seem.

I could always sense something was missing and the Holy Spirit kept touching me telling me not to sleep and so miss what they were missing.


Sorry, lot of that wandering thinking sounds like Mysticism to me. God's Word is not that complex; It's simple, but profoundly thorough. It's analogus to a long math equation that requires doing a whole lot of basic math.

The good wheat in Christ's parable of the tares of the field are all God's children. Our Lord Jesus did not apply just the remnant of believing Israel to that wheat, but to all believers on Him. So then, the "tares", which are sown by the enemy and mixed among His wheat can mean who? Any of the devil's servants that have crept in among literal Israel in past history, and also any tare that creeps into Christ's Body today, all the way up to Christ's return. Like He also said, the harvest is at the end of the world, meaning the end of this world we are in still. The fat lady ain't sung yet. It's simple math, just got to stay focused on the Scripture.

Just as God preserved a literal remnant of Israel in His Salvation Plan during Old Testament times, He kept doing that for New Testament times too. That's what Paul was teaching in Rom.11 about flesh Israel.

The difficulty is that many brethren have yet to fathom just 'how many' that preserved remnant of the Seed of Israel is about. When even Jewish scholars admit they (the Jews) only make up two tribes of Israel, and that the ten tribes were separated from among them long ago and lost, that should be accounted for in Bible study. That because God's Word as written agrees with them on that point about the ten tribes of Israel.

And if Jewish historians like Josephus, which the majority of Christian pastors consistently quote from in Christ's Churches, declared the ten tribes were an innumerable amount of people still abroad from the holy land in his days, then's it's only a matter of finding them through understanding God's promises to them among Gentiles. And that ESPECIALLY involves Christ's Church and the western Christian nations of history.
 

Vengle53

New Member
Aug 11, 2010
224
2
0
70
Ohio


The promises and covenants to Israel remained with Israel, to this day. That's what believing Gentiles were graffed into per Paul's declaration of "the commonwealth of Israel" (Eph.2). Problem is, the majority don't really know who all Israel means today per God's Word, simply because Old Testament history is ommitted from most believers Bible study.

The idea of the Promise by Faith was first to Abraham and then to the seed of Israel. Then it went to Gentiles, but only AFTER many of flesh Israel refused and were rebellious. Paul shows in Romans 11 how it stayed with an elect remnant of the seed of Israel. Then in Ephesians 2 and Romans 11, Paul showed how believing Gentiles were graffed in, even with "the commonwealth of Israel" title applied to Christ's Church. God did not cast away the Israel that He foreknew, just as Paul said in Rom.11.

[/size]


And how did that Promise continue, through the Gentiles and then to that elect remnant of the seed of Israel? No, the Promise stayed with believing Israel, and then was sent to Gentiles. Paul and Peter, and even Philip (all Israelites) were first to preach The Gospel to Gentiles, as written.




Not quite right. The Promise by Faith first to Abraham ALSO included other promises to Israel, like the promise of many seed, inheriting believing Gentiles (Isa.49:6; Isa.54:3), ruling the gates of their enemies (Gen.22:17), David's throne (2 Sam.7), inheritance of the holy lands (Gen.15:18-21), and God's laws put into their minds and hearts (Heb.8 & 10), etc. All that was moved to Christ's Church (Rev.21:7; Heb.9-20), but not all of it is manifested on earth yet.

Otherwise, what do you think God's Salvation through His Son is about? Just floating up in the clouds without any substance of inheritance? (Living in the clouds with nothing around is exactly what Christ's enemies want us to think His Salvation is about. It is not, for this earth and everything in it belongs to God and His Christ. It's going to be ours through Him, once the wicked are burned off it.)




Christ's Salvation is always about the Promise by Faith to Abraham. But you cannot just throw away the Old Testament and Gospel Book's evidence of a chosen seed of Israel which God Himself preserved in that Faith, by His Own Hand. That's what the doctrines of men you're on is trying to get you to do. And that's why you have a difficult time addressing what Paul taught about flesh believing Israel of Romans 11:1-5, the elect remnant of flesh Israel which God Himself preserved in His Salvation. Romans 9 cannot change that.




I'm not the one lacking understanding on this matter brother. And I will never accept the doctrines of men you're using over what God's Word declares. That's why I can easily go to God's Word with written proof, while you have to keep changing directions because of men's doctrines.




I will keep it very simple. The promise at no time (never ever) came by means of the flesh.

John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God
, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

That is talking about when he was in the flesh. Jesus plainly said: “I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” (Matthew 15:24)

So what John wrote above applies to Israelites.
 

Vengle53

New Member
Aug 11, 2010
224
2
0
70
Ohio
If the promises of God were never transferred via the flesh, then why did birthrights exist?

If man were perfect and without sin, then promises and privileges could be passed by the flesh and it would lend to the order of man’s arrangement. No one would be insulted or try to usurp anyone else and man would by their orderliness and untainted image be an honor to God. For our God is a God of order, not of disorder. Our God does all things orderly and by arrangement.

Before Adam sinned that is how it was intended to be. But once Adam sinned, due to the corruption in our flesh by sin, it brought corruption into our ability to image God’s orderliness. But that did not mean that man would stop or should stop trying to live by the rules of order taught them from Adam forward. It merely meant that God would not use that corrupted version of the image of His orderliness.

Therefore God would not leave it to man’s corrupted flesh to pass the promises; instead choosing who would and who would not receive the blessings along the way to Christ. And make no mistake about it, all of the promises of God pointed to Christ and are fulfilled in Christ.

From the moment God gave man dominion in the first chapter of Genesis it was intended that we would listen to God and image God and reflect all of his ways. So they still had a lot of the ways as taught from the beginning, most of which have gotten near completely lost in this day and age as man’s imperfection reaches its 6 to the third degree of intensity.
 

Vengle53

New Member
Aug 11, 2010
224
2
0
70
Ohio
And what I find really interesting is that God allowed kings and priests within Israel's fleshly society to be passed along by birthright just so we could see how well that mode does not work with sinful men. In so doing he masquaraded the corrupt condition of our flesh before the eyes of the entire world so that no one has an excuse to be prideful of their flesh.

Look how many corrupt kings and priests they suffered.

Philippians 3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
 

bud02

New Member
Aug 14, 2010
727
12
0
And what I find really interesting is that God allowed kings and priests within Israel's fleshly society to be passed along by birthright just so we could see how well that mode does not work with sinful men. In so doing he masquaraded the corrupt condition of our flesh before the eyes of the entire world so that no one has an excuse to be prideful of their flesh.

Look how many corrupt kings and priests they suffered.

Philippians 3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

Because God allowed kings and priests within Israel's fleshly society to be passed along by birthright the larger part today are still blind today and still boast in the flesh.


Eyes that see as well are from the Lord.

Pr 20:12
Ex 4:11
Dt 29:4
Jer 5:21
Eze 12:2

Nothing much changed from the old to the new as far as vision. Its a heart condition “For the eyes of the LORD run to and fro throughout the whole earth, to give strong support to those whose heart is blameless toward him” 2 Chronicles 16:9, .....nor is it by mans will..... 2Cor 10:18


Mark 4:11-12
[sup]11[/sup] And He said to them, “To you it has been given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God; but to those who are outside, all things come in parables, [sup]12[/sup] so that


‘ Seeing they may see and not perceive,
And hearing they may hear and not understand;
Lest they should turn,
And their sins be forgiven them.’”[sup][c][/sup]
 

Vengle53

New Member
Aug 11, 2010
224
2
0
70
Ohio
"Nothing much changed from the old to the new as far as vision. Its a heart condition"

That is for sure.

The truth is that none of us could understand if God did not help us.

If we are too stubborn to let him do so, it is on us.

And since it takes God's help to understand, all he need do for those like the disobedient Jews there in first century Jerusalem is withdraw from them.

Jesus told Simon Peter that he would not know who Jesus was unless the Father in heaven revealed it to him.

I would have to say that applies to anyone.

So you can see what I meant when I said it was to a degree just bickering about words.

It is one of the subjects than can be true from both directions depending on the angle we look at it.

It is not wrong for God to withdraw from persistently stubborn ones. That is their heart' choice to be that way. And they would have to repent of it which would mean accepting that it was their own fault. But it still can be said that God did it to them as He chose to withdraw from them.

So that argument is going to only keep going in circles back and forth, which impedes our progress towards looking at other aspects that provide far more solid proofs for us.
 

Vengle53

New Member
Aug 11, 2010
224
2
0
70
Ohio
Isn't it interesting Walking in Grace. I see this all the time, more so lately.
As soon as the bread is delivered in the Spirit the birds come flocking in to rob the bread from from the childrens mouths.


I missed this post until just now.

It was for a good reason that the summary of God's Law (the Ten Commandments) were written in stone.

Deuteronomy 9:11 "And it came to pass at the end of forty days and forty nights, that the LORD gave me the two tables of stone, even the tables of the covenant."

And it was for good reason that Moses had to make the second set himself, after the first were dashed to pieces due to the disobedience of the people.

2 Corinthians 3:2-3 "Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men: Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart."

What Paul speaks about there is not about restoring the fleshly Israel. God never changed his mind when He told Moses the following: Deuteronomy 9:13- 14 "Furthermore the LORD spake unto me, saying, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people: Let me alone, that I may destroy them, and blot out their name from under heaven: and I will make of thee (Moses) a nation mightier and greater than they."

Someone that corresponds to Moses in many ways (but who is greater than Moses) is now with us.

I have tried to tell everyone that that blindness has been lifted but that can only be appreciated by those that rid themselves of all fleshly pride.

The account that was the blinding of the fleshly Israelites (that is, the hiding the glory of God as it would shine through his covenant with them, so that they could not see it). This was happened just before Moses came back down from the mountain the second time and Moses put a vail over his face. That glory of God shining from Moses face represented that God was doing What Deuteronomy 9: 13- 14 says. That was when it was that Paul said God had "given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day", as Paul speaks of at Ro 11: 8.

Failure to understand the timing of that blindness is one of the most critical factors to our subject on this thread. Because a chief purpose of Christ coming into the world was to remove the vail from off God's face and reveal his glory (shine brightly his glory) to the world as in the first chapter of John.

2 Corinthians 3:13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
16 Nevertheless when it (that is to say, when the heart of each one as an individual) shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

So we see that it is dependent on their repentance. It does not say God will take away their blindness and then they will enter into Christ. It says that the vail is done away with IN CHRIST.

God has left it up to them whether or not they will repent just as He has left it up to anyone else in this world to make that decision for their self.

Christ began taking that vail away the moment he came into the world. So they by claiming that vail was not lifted are without realizing trying to keep the light of God hid.

Who do you suppose wants them to do that?

Watch the birds flock in to try to snatch this bread away from the children, also.
 

Vengle53

New Member
Aug 11, 2010
224
2
0
70
Ohio
I bungled my paragarh 6 and did not state it clearly

That glory of God shining from Moses face THE VAILING OF IT represented that God was doing What Deuteronomy 9: 13- 14 says. That was when it was that Paul said God had "given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day", as Paul speaks of at Ro 11: 8.

John in his first chapter shows that light was shined to the entire world to lift that vail from off the meek ones of the world, Jew and Gentile alike, by means of Christ.

Psalms 149:4 For the LORD taketh pleasure in his people: he will beautify the meek with salvation.
 

bud02

New Member
Aug 14, 2010
727
12
0
I've been meaning to share with you some thoughts, ever since your post about The Father making the earth Jesus footstool.

Back in Nov I was posting in a thread about the Trinity, I usually just observe this subject as it usually ends in an unsatisfactory explanation. I don't like to speak about subjects that I am not certain about, unlike the subject we both agree on here, I never in all the years I listened to the rapture and the blinding of Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles never made sense so I never included it in my understanding. Instead I waited on the Lord to reveal the truth of the matter. The same was true about the trinity. As I got more involved in the topic along with Anastacia's persistence I had a very dynamic Spiritual experience. I've been born of the Spirit for many years and I can only describe this experience as being born all over again, my walk with the Lord changed. The born again being born again If you can understand that. Like the piercing of a veil. None the less here's the thread http://www.christian...dpost__p__92389
and If you would read from that post forward it will give you a perspective on the next topic I want to share with you. Gods footstool and the progressive downfall of Satan.

The account in Gen in light of what was spoken about in the trinity tread takes on a slightly different meaning.
Heres a link to Gen chapter 3 I don't want to waste the space posting it here.
http://www.biblegate...+3&version=NKJV

Look at what is going, first Eve and Adam eat of the tree, and immediately after they realize what has now happened to them, they hear the LORD walking in the garden and hide.
As in the trinity thread I believe this walking LORD is Jesus. Then at the end of Ch 3 [sup]21[/sup] Also for Adam and his wife the LORD God made tunics of skin, and clothed them.This implies just as Adam and Eve heard the LORD walking that the LORD had a physical presents. And then we see, [sup]22[/sup] Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, The second mention of the trinity Father Son And Spirit. Gen 1:26

Now look here what Jesus says about the fall of Satan Luke 10:18 Notice that Jesus is the witness not the person of the trinity that cast Satan down, the implication is the Father first cast Satan to the earth. The footstool of the earth for Jesus has not yet been fulfilled but Jesus in John 12:31 is telling them that is just what is going to happen. He is going to over come Satan in the place the Father cast him to, the earth. I'm hoping you read the trinity thread, just look at how many times Jesus refers to Himself as the light in John 12:35-36 below........... John 8:12

John 12:27-36
[sup]27[/sup] “Now My soul is troubled, and what shall I say? ‘Father, save Me from this hour’? But for this purpose I came to this hour. [sup]28[/sup] Father, glorify Your name.”
Then a voice came from heaven, saying, “I have both glorified it and will glorify it again.”
[sup]29[/sup] Therefore the people who stood by and heard it said that it had thundered. Others said, “An angel has spoken to Him.”
[sup]30[/sup] Jesus answered and said, “This voice did not come because of Me, but for your sake. [sup]31[/sup] Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out. [sup]32[/sup] And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself. Gen 12:3 ” [sup]33[/sup] This He said, signifying by what death He would die.
[sup]34[/sup] The people answered Him, “We have heard from the law that the Christ remains forever; and how can You say, ‘The Son of Man must be lifted up’? Who is this Son of Man?”
[sup]35[/sup] Then Jesus said to them, “A little while longer the light is with you. Walk while you have the light, lest darkness overtake you; he who walks in darkness does not know where he is going. [sup]36[/sup] While you have the light, believe in the light, that you may become sons of light.” These things Jesus spoke, and departed, and was hidden from them.

The next point is where will Satan be cast from? We know that he still dwells on the earth 1 Peter 5:6-8 We know also that as Satan was first cast down to earth he still had access to the Lord Job 1:6-7 I contend that Satan was about to be cast from ever going before the throne of the Lord again, the accuser of Job and the brethren was about to lose his right to accuse us. Why because Jesus was about to become the sacrifice provided by God, the atonement for all men Gen 22:8 Jesus is about to be seated at the right hand of the Father the earth is about to become Jesus footstool.

To further confirm this from scripture take a look at Rev 12.

[sup]7[/sup] And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, [sup]8[/sup] but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them[sup][a][/sup] in heaven any longer. [sup]9[/sup] So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
[sup]10[/sup] Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. [sup]11[/sup] And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death. [sup]12[/sup] Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.”

What do you see? Exactly what I have been leading up to. War broke out in heaven, but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. John 12:31

Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come,
This can only be describing Jesus on the cross, the tearing of the veil in the temple ect.

for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down.
John 12:31 again cast down from before the throne, the earth is now Jesus footstool. Gen 3:15 He shall bruise your head, And you shall bruise His heel.” footstool

And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death.
At the time it is believed John wrote Rev. all the other Apostles had given their lives in the name of the Lord. You also notice whose book I'm using to confirm this as well.

You can fit the rest of rev 12 together for yourself I hope that you in the power of the Holy Spirit gain something from my rather long post.
The final act or progressive demise of Satan will be when Michael binds him. Please note the 3 progressive steps. God bless you and may we all Walk-ing in Grace.

 

veteran

New Member
Aug 6, 2010
6,509
212
0
Southeast USA
I will keep it very simple. The promise at no time (never ever) came by means of the flesh.

Then you show you follow what 'you want' to follow, and not what God's Word declares, nor what Christ's Apostles declared...


Rom 9:4-5
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, Who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
(KJV)


Luke 1:54-55
54 He hath holpen His servant Israel, in remembrance of His mercy;
55 As He spake to our fathers, to Abraham, and to his seed for ever.
(KJV)


Acts 3:24-26
24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.
25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.
26 Unto you first God, having raised up His Son Jesus, sent Him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.
(KJV)


Eph 2:11-13
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
(KJV)


Jer 31:9
9 They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.
(KJV)


Gen 17:5-11
5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.
6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.
7 And I will establish My covenant between Me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.
9 And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep My covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.
10 This is My covenant, which ye shall keep, between Me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.
11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt Me and you.
(KJV)


Ps 89:3-4
3 I have made a covenant with My chosen, I have sworn unto David My servant,
4 Thy seed will I establish for ever, and build up thy throne to all generations. Selah.
(KJV)


Ps 89:34-37
34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of My lips.
35 Once have I sworn by My holiness that I will not lie unto David.
36 His seed shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before Me.
37 It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah.
(KJV)


Jer 31:31-33
31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which My covenant they brake, although I was an Husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put mMy law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be My people.
(KJV)


Jer 33:24-26
24 Considerest thou not what this people have spoken, saying, The two families which the LORD hath chosen, He hath even cast them off? thus they have despised My people, that they should be no more a nation before them.
25 Thus saith the LORD; If My covenant be not with day and night, and if I have not appointed the ordinances of heaven and earth;
26 Then will I cast away the seed of Jacob, and David My servant, so that I will not take any of his seed to be rulers over the seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob: for I will cause their captivity to return, and have mercy on them.
(KJV)


Heb 8:6-10
6 But now hath He obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also He is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8 For finding fault with them, He saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in My covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put My laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to Me a people:
(KJV)





John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God
, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

That is talking about when he was in the flesh. Jesus plainly said: “I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” ([/font]Matthew 15:24)

So what John wrote above applies to Israelites.


That "But as many as received Him..." also applies to flesh Israel. Not all the seed of Israel refused Christ Jesus. That's why you can't throw flesh Israel out of the original promises God gave them which continued through Christ Jesus, as His Salvation was to them first, even as Heb.3:26 declares, as Paul also declared in Romans 3...

Rom 3:1-3
1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.
3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
(KJV)





 

bud02

New Member
Aug 14, 2010
727
12
0
I'm re-posting this again simply because I dont want you to miss it Walking in Grace.
I posted it at 12:08 and Veteran posted the above reply at 12:09


I've been meaning to share with you some thoughts, ever since your post about The Father making the earth Jesus footstool.

Back in Nov I was posting in a thread about the Trinity, I usually just observe this subject as it usually ends in an unsatisfactory explanation. I don't like to speak about subjects that I am not certain about, unlike the subject we both agree on here, I never in all the years I listened to the rapture and the blinding of Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles never made sense so I never included it in my understanding. Instead I waited on the Lord to reveal the truth of the matter. The same was true about the trinity. As I got more involved in the topic along with Anastacia's persistence I had a very dynamic Spiritual experience. I've been born of the Spirit for many years and I can only describe this experience as being born all over again, my walk with the Lord changed. The born again being born again If you can understand that. Like the piercing of a veil. None the less here's the thread http://www.christian...dpost__p__92389
and If you would read from that post forward it will give you a perspective on the next topic I want to share with you. Gods footstool and the progressive downfall of Satan.

The account in Gen in light of what was spoken about in the trinity tread takes on a slightly different meaning.
Heres a link to Gen chapter 3 I don't want to waste the space posting it here.
http://www.biblegate...+3&version=NKJV

Look at what is going, first Eve and Adam eat of the tree, and immediately after they realize what has now happened to them, they hear the LORD walking in the garden and hide.
As in the trinity thread I believe this walking LORD is Jesus. Then at the end of Ch 3 [sup]21[/sup] Also for Adam and his wife the LORD God made tunics of skin, and clothed them.This implies just as Adam and Eve heard the LORD walking that the LORD had a physical presents. And then we see, [sup]22[/sup] Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, The second mention of the trinity Father Son And Spirit. Gen 1:26

Now look here what Jesus says about the fall of Satan Luke 10:18 Notice that Jesus is the witness not the person of the trinity that cast Satan down, the implication is the Father first cast Satan to the earth. The footstool of the earth for Jesus has not yet been fulfilled but Jesus in John 12:31 is telling them that is just what is going to happen. He is going to over come Satan in the place the Father cast him to, the earth. I'm hoping you read the trinity thread, just look at how many times Jesus refers to Himself as the light in John 12:35-36 below........... John 8:12

John 12:27-36
[sup]27[/sup] “Now My soul is troubled, and what shall I say? ‘Father, save Me from this hour’? But for this purpose I came to this hour. [sup]28[/sup] Father, glorify Your name.”
Then a voice came from heaven, saying, “I have both glorified it and will glorify it again.”
[sup]29[/sup] Therefore the people who stood by and heard it said that it had thundered. Others said, “An angel has spoken to Him.”
[sup]30[/sup] Jesus answered and said, “This voice did not come because of Me, but for your sake. [sup]31[/sup] Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out. [sup]32[/sup] And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself. Gen 12:3 ” [sup]33[/sup] This He said, signifying by what death He would die.
[sup]34[/sup] The people answered Him, “We have heard from the law that the Christ remains forever; and how can You say, ‘The Son of Man must be lifted up’? Who is this Son of Man?”
[sup]35[/sup] Then Jesus said to them, “A little while longer the light is with you. Walk while you have the light, lest darkness overtake you; he who walks in darkness does not know where he is going. [sup]36[/sup] While you have the light, believe in the light, that you may become sons of light.” These things Jesus spoke, and departed, and was hidden from them.

The next point is where will Satan be cast from? We know that he still dwells on the earth 1 Peter 5:6-8 We know also that as Satan was first cast down to earth he still had access to the Lord Job 1:6-7 I contend that Satan was about to be cast from ever going before the throne of the Lord again, the accuser of Job and the brethren was about to lose his right to accuse us. Why because Jesus was about to become the sacrifice provided by God, the atonement for all men Gen 22:8 Jesus is about to be seated at the right hand of the Father the earth is about to become Jesus footstool.

To further confirm this from scripture take a look at Rev 12.

[sup]7[/sup] And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, [sup]8[/sup] but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them[sup][a][/sup] in heaven any longer. [sup]9[/sup] So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
[sup]10[/sup] Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. [sup]11[/sup] And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death. [sup]12[/sup] Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.”

What do you see? Exactly what I have been leading up to. War broke out in heaven, but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. John 12:31

Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come,
This can only be describing Jesus on the cross, the tearing of the veil in the temple ect.

for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down.
John 12:31 again cast down from before the throne, the earth is now Jesus footstool. Gen 3:15 He shall bruise your head, And you shall bruise His heel.” footstool

And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death.
At the time it is believed John wrote Rev. all the other Apostles had given their lives in the name of the Lord. You also notice whose book I'm using to confirm this as well.

You can fit the rest of rev 12 together for yourself I hope that you in the power of the Holy Spirit gain something from my rather long post.
The final act or progressive demise of Satan will be when Michael binds him. Please note the 3 progressive steps. God bless you and may we all Walk-ing in Grace.

 

dan p

New Member
Mar 26, 2009
358
0
0
I beg to differ the covenant the unconditional covenant was given to all the nations / family's of the earth threw Abraham.

Gen 12:3
Gen 18:18

Hi bud02 , and my disagreement will probably be in the implemenation of the 4 covenants that have yet to come to pass ,

#1 , the Abrahamic
#2 , The Palestinian

#3 , the Davidic

#4 , the New Covenant

And these are ALL Unconitional , but will in operation ONLY in the Millennium AND these covenant were never given to Gentiles but in the Millennium the Gentiles will be GRAFTED into the Olve tree .

In Eph 2:12 no covenant was given to Gentiles and the OT is clear also about that , dan p
 

Vengle53

New Member
Aug 11, 2010
224
2
0
70
Ohio
I have taken note of your posts bud02 and look forward to discussing that further with you.

You and I do not seem to me to be far out of sync on what you explained in #112 and #114, based on my first read.

You probably recognize this phrase of scripture, "and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird."

From your earlier comments I am impressed that you know what these birds are, and who they are, so I would bet that you know also where they are caged.

We will talk more if the Lord permits.

I was going to first make a caring reply to another poster but upon going back to it and reading again the spirit said to me that the desire is not there. I will state it that way instead of saying which side I see no desire on.

So I am heading over to the thread and post you cited.
 

bud02

New Member
Aug 14, 2010
727
12
0
Hi bud02 , and my disagreement will probably be in the implemenation of the 4 covenants that have yet to come to pass ,

#1 , the Abrahamic
#2 , The Palestinian

#3 , the Davidic

#4 , the New Covenant

And these are ALL Unconitional , but will in operation ONLY in the Millennium AND these covenant were never given to Gentiles but in the Millennium the Gentiles will be GRAFTED into the Olve tree .

In Eph 2:12 no covenant was given to Gentiles and the OT is clear also about that , dan p


Read these verses over carefully posted below John 12:27-36 and tell me when was Jesus speaking and when would He draw all people unto himself? When was He lifted up and seated at the right hand of the Father? Eph 1:20-21 ....... Acts 2:33 ........ Rev 3:21



John 12:27-36
[sup]27[/sup] “Now My soul is troubled, and what shall I say? ‘Father, save Me from this hour’? But for this purpose I came to this hour. [sup]28[/sup] Father, glorify Your name.”
Then a voice came from heaven, saying, “I have both glorified it and will glorify it again.”
[sup]29[/sup] Therefore the people who stood by and heard it said that it had thundered. Others said, “An angel has spoken to Him.”
[sup]30[/sup] Jesus answered and said, “This voice did not come because of Me, but for your sake. [sup]31[/sup] Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out. [sup]32[/sup] And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself. Gen 12:3 ” [sup]33[/sup] This He said, signifying by what death He would die.
[sup]34[/sup] The people answered Him, “We have heard from the law that the Christ remains forever; and how can You say, ‘The Son of Man must be lifted up’? Who is this Son of Man?”
[sup]35[/sup] Then Jesus said to them, “A little while longer the light is with you. Walk while you have the light, lest darkness overtake you; he who walks in darkness does not know where he is going. [sup]36[/sup] While you have the light, believe in the light, that you may become sons of light.” these things Jesus spoke, and departed, and was hidden from them.


And just where is the fulfilling of the covenant in the future described here? The truth is, just as Jesus breath His last He said; it is finished. All that's left is to over come all His enemy's, then every knee shall bow and every tong confess.

The Last Enemy Destroyed


1 Corinthians 15
[sup]20[/sup] But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. [sup]21[/sup] For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. [sup]22[/sup] For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. [sup]23[/sup] But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. [sup]24[/sup] Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. [sup]25[/sup] For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. [sup]26[/sup] The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. [sup]27[/sup] For “He has put all things under His feet.”[sup][a][/sup] But when He says “all things are put under Him,it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. [sup]28[/sup] Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.

same message here
Hebrews 2


[sup]5[/sup] For He has not put the world to come, of which we speak, in subjection to angels. [sup]6[/sup] But one testified in a certain place, saying:


“ What is man that You are mindful of him,
Or the son of man that You take care of him?
[sup]7[/sup] You have made him a little lower than the angels;
You have crowned him with glory and honor,[sup][a][/sup]
And set him over the works of Your hands.
[sup]8[/sup] You have put all things in subjection under his feet.”[sup][b][/sup]
For in that He put all in subjection under him, He left nothing that is not put under him. But now we do not yet see all things put under him. [sup]9[/sup] But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone.
 

Vengle53

New Member
Aug 11, 2010
224
2
0
70
Ohio
Jesus parables at Matthew 13 tie together to give us an interesting picture.

The field Jesus said was the world: (Matthew 13:38)

The thing Jesus did not directly say in that particular parable he had said in an earlier parable, and that is, he shows us were the furtile soil is the wheat in that field are growing in: (Matthew 13:19)

The innaccurate doctrines of men both sincere and insincere get aimed at the furtile soil of the tender wheat's hearts. Therein they both the wheat and the tares set their roots. And the tares roots is their inaccurate doctrine which entangles the pure word of truth that serves as the wheats roots in their hearts.

Zizanion have stronger roots and usually longer roots that rap themselves around the plant's roots they grow near to. So the admonition of the householder to let them both grow together until the harvest (until the wheat is mature enough to be harvested): (Matthew 13:28-29)
 

bud02

New Member
Aug 14, 2010
727
12
0
I can't keep from replying again, the Lord has laid it on my heart. Its true the two war with one another the wheat and tares, tares when eaten have a hallucinogenic affect. In light of that we each "walk" wage our own war for survival against the root and encroachment of the tares. Its also interesting that you can not tell the two apart until the heads mature.

Some of the things I've said to you are not meant to boast or draw attention but rather to encourage what I believe and live to like brothers. I have a personal phrase " has the Lord taken you for a test drive lately?" As I shared with you the Lord took me on a recent test drive that changed my walk. Hes taken me on quite a few threw the years, what I have learned is during those times, don't make the mistakes of those in the past. A lot has happened to me personally and in the world as well since late Nov.
Have you ever wondered not just about my post about Jesus in the trinity thread like "who was it that appeared to Abraham, along with the other two with Him, on His way to Sodom? " But have you wondered about this verse.

An Angle of the Lord said to Zacharias......... Luke 1:17 ........in the spirit and power of Elijah................ Matthew 11:14-15
I tell you that there are times when reading John or Paul I feel like the spirit of John or Paul are with me. I've probably said to much and risk making the mistakes of those that have gone before me but I can't keep things bottled up inside forever. I say this for your benefit that you might be encouraged, speaking such things certainly don't benefit me. Keep the faith and finish the race, free yourself from the roots and encroachment of the tares. Pray the Lord takes you on a test drive that you will never forget.

I'm watching the news right now and pondering these verses.

[sup]18[/sup] In that day five cities in the land of Egypt will speak the language of Canaan and swear by the LORD of hosts; one will be called the City of Destruction.[sup][d][/sup]
[sup]19[/sup] In that day there will be an altar to the LORD in the midst of the land of Egypt, and a pillar to the LORD at its border. [sup]20[/sup] And it will be for a sign and for a witness to the LORD of hosts in the land of Egypt; for they will cry to the LORD because of the oppressors, and He will send them a Savior and a Mighty One, and He will deliver them. [sup]21[/sup] Then the LORD will be known to Egypt, and the Egyptians will know the LORD in that day, and will make sacrifice and offering; yes, they will make a vow to the LORD and perform it. [sup]22[/sup] And the LORD will strike Egypt, He will strike and heal it; they will return to the LORD, and He will be entreated by them and heal them.
[sup]23[/sup] In that day there will be a highway from Egypt to Assyria, and the Assyrian will come into Egypt and the Egyptian into Assyria, and the Egyptians will serve with the Assyrians.
[sup]24[/sup] In that day Israel will be one of three with Egypt and Assyria—a blessing in the midst of the land, [sup]25[/sup] whom the LORD of hosts shall bless, saying, “Blessed is Egypt My people, and Assyria the work of My hands, and Israel My inheritance.”

PS I just looked at the new post, it looks like the birds have taken to the air.
 

Vengle53

New Member
Aug 11, 2010
224
2
0
70
Ohio
Can't resist futility, hey bud02?

That is an interesting part of Isaiah. Back at that time it had to do with the Assyrian king Sargon II. The future counter part takes place when we hit the state of Sodom and Egypt ion a spiritual sense as Revelation 11 talks about.

Revelation 11:8 "And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified."

As far as the fleshly nations go, it is only a remnant of each of them saved just as with Israel. I know a few good scriptures that show that but I am getting tired.

It has a lot to do with what Jesus prayed: John 17:15- 16 "I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world."

You aren't musing about the pyramids are you? That section of Isaiah used to be used by many that claimed there was a spiritual connection between the pyramids and God's temple in Jerusalem. They even claimed that certain measurements in the pyramid hallways gave the exact number of years until the Great Tribulation. I see it as stepping outside of God's word to believe that stuff.

I am tired. Later !!!