Why Jews And Gentiles Are Kept Separate ??

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bud02

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I said in post #134 (in so may words) that we must see the end goal of what is happening In Christ is that we are all being prepared not to need external governing, but to be governed by the love of God which regulates in our hearts. Romans 2:14-16

Understanding that the temple in earthly Jerusalem was at that time from where the Law of God externally went forth to all who would listen, and that the Mesianic kingdom serves the purpose of changing that to become a regulation within the furtile soil of the believers heart, here is another picture of that end goal:

Revelation 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

I will withheld further comments while you ponder.

I'm slightly confused I presume this as well as 134 are replies to veteran, simply because I know you know that I agree with your witness 100%
I've witnessed to veteran in the past, as you said to him in another thread, he may not see simply because he has to much invested in his interpretations. Please forgive my rather bad paraphrasing.
 

veteran

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If anyone does not see what I have pointed out in post #134 then neither have they yet fully grasped the Messianic kingdom by Christ Jesus, and they do not yet know the kingdom of God as to how it rules.

That bit of understanding I have pointed out in post #134 is essential to understanding much of the scriptures, and especially Paul's writings.

For what I have mentioned in post #134 is the end goal of what is taking place in Christ Jesus.

Understanding this puts to rest the misguided idea that not all are in Christ. I say that because Jehovah's Witnesses (a beautiful and loving people that they are) teach that only the 144,000 are in Christ. But there is no two sets of rules. There are no two ways. All must learn the same lessons.

There are merely different appointments along the way to getting to that end. And while Jehovah's Witnesses do have a great deal of knowledge, they have not yet fully understood.

That makes them no worse than any other group.

I was brought to stand on the outside and made to observe all of the groups for many years. I had no choice in that matter, for where my heart desired to be God would not allow. I was placed on the outside of everyone to understand why. And I have understood.

But at points when I thought I understood enough and I began to say to God, "OK, I have listen, now put me to use" , He said to me, "You have not yet understood enough."


You follow your own heart, and many of your posts show it.

You've even falsely tried to use 1 Cor.15:28 to imply Christ's Throne as being a temporal matter. God says differently...

2 Sam 7:16-17
16 And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever.
17 According to all these words, and according to all this vision, so did Nathan speak unto David.
(KJV)


Ps 45:6-7
6 Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of Thy kingdom is a right sceptre.
7 Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
(KJV)


Ps 89:3-4
3 I have made a covenant with My chosen, I have sworn unto David My servant,
4 Thy seed will I establish for ever, and build up thy throne to all generations. Selah.
(KJV)


Ps 93:1-2
1 The LORD reigneth, He is clothed with majesty; the LORD is clothed with strength, wherewith He hath girded Himself: the world also is stablished, that it cannot be moved.
2 Thy throne is established of old: Thou art from everlasting.
(KJV)


Heb 1:8
8 But unto the Son He saith, "Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of Thy kingdom."
(KJV)




 

veteran

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I said in post #134 (in so may words) that we must see the end goal of what is happening In Christ is that we are all being prepared not to need external governing, but to be governed by the love of God which regulates in our hearts.


So now you're backtracking off of what you declared earlier? That's probably a good move.

But all you've actually done is try to re-word what you said about not needing government, which idea is of course false. God's Throne and Rule through His Son is forever, as those Scriptures I posted declare, as Paul in Hebrews 1:8 also declared (Hebrews penned through Luke as dictated by Paul, which I believe, as some scholars do also). And how can you claim Apostle Paul as an authority on this matter if you won't listen to him about Christ's eternal Sceptre?

2 Pet 1:10-11
10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
(KJV)


Luke 1:33
33 And He shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of His kingdom there shall be no end.
(KJV)


Rev 11:15
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He shall reign for ever and ever.
(KJV)


How is it that all those NT Scriptures exist which declare Christ's reign will be forever, when you say His reign wiill end after the thousand years? Is Jesus Christ not GOD, or something like that? Is He maybe an angel to you, and not GOD? (JW have that false teaching that our Lord Jesus is the Archangel Michael, and thus not GOD; but of course that doctrine is not written in God's Word).


Understanding that the temple in earthly Jerusalem was at that time from where the Law of God externally went forth to all who would listen, and that the Mesianic kingdom serves the purpose of changing that to become a regulation within the furtile soil of the believers heart, here is another picture of that end goal:

Revelation 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

I will withheld further comments while you ponder.

Oh, so it's really that "temple" you're talking about ending, and not Christ's Throne at all?

Christ's Sceptre reign will be for ever and ever. The Milennium temple of Ezekiel 40 will not be necessary after Christ's thousand years reign, because why? At the end of that thousand years Satan, hell, and the wicked will go into the "lake of fire". But nowhere does that infer God's Throne through Christ will ever end.



 

Vengle53

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I'm slightly confused I presume this as well as 134 are replies to veteran, simply because I know you know that I agree with your witness 100%
I've witnessed to veteran in the past, as you said to him in another thread, he may not see simply because he has to much invested in his interpretations. Please forgive my rather bad paraphrasing.


That is right bud02, I post sometimes with a broad sense of who the onlookers are, speaking for their benefit just as Jesus often did.

I am trying to gently sow the right seed at the right time for it in the hearts of any that might prove to have furtile soil within rather than stone.
 

Vengle53

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Aug 11, 2010
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veteran said:

Oh, so it's really that "temple" you're talking about ending, and not Christ's Throne at all?

Christ's Sceptre reign will be for ever and ever. The Milennium temple of Ezekiel 40 will not be necessary after Christ's thousand years reign, because why? At the end of that thousand years Satan, hell, and the wicked will go into the "lake of fire". But nowhere does that infer God's Throne through Christ will ever end.



Oh veteran, Revelation 21:22 "And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it."

Is that not Christ ruling in one's heart for ever and ever?

Does not the scripture say that the law of the love of Christ compels us?

When Job was in distress and of his internal distress confusion was being given its way, the young Elihu wisely said to him, Job 37:14 "Hearken unto this, O Job: stand still, and consider the wondrous works of God."

"Stand still", in other words, "Calm yourself, Job", "Have faith enough to not be anxious while you look to see what it is that God wants you to know."
 

veteran

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walking in grace; God is my Rock. The only Stone you've run up against in your reasonings is His Word Jesus Christ.

You've come here pushing some falseness not supported in His Word:

1. you claimed that we all are responsible for Christ's crucifixion. You even tried to re-interpret Hebrews 6 to drum up Scripture support for that false claim, totally taking Heb.6 out of its context.

2. you promoted the false Pre-Trib "secret rapture" theory with your essay about the 144,000 and "Great Crowd". (I don't think Bud02 even realized that)

3. you've wrongly inferred that Christ's Eternal Throne and Reign is temporal, only for the Rev.20 "thousand years", which is a false idea.

4. you've declared that man was not meant to be subject to the idea of government, when Isaiah 9 declares the government will be upon Christ's shoulder at His coming, which shows the idea of Government will continue with Christ Jesus.

5. you've mocked how God has declared His Working through His Own elect through Bible history, accomplishing His Will through them overcoming their weak flesh nature.

6. you've inferred God's law will be non-existent in His Eternity with your false re-interpretation of Rom.2:14.

7. you've pushed the false idea that the seed of Israel are no longer important in God's Salvation.


What you've come here pushing is shaping up nicely as proof of you following your own heart and tradition, and not God's Word.
 

veteran

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Oh veteran, Revelation 21:22 "And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it."

Is that not Christ ruling in one's heart for ever and ever?

Does not the scripture say that the law of the love of Christ compels us?

When Job was in distress and of his internal distress confusion was being given its way, the young Elihu wisely said to him, Job 37:14 "Hearken unto this, O Job: stand still, and consider the wondrous works of God."

"Stand still", in other words, "Calm yourself, Job", "Have faith enough to not be anxious while you look to see what it is that God wants you to know."

There's a huge difference between your words, "Christ ruling in one's heart for ever" and what God's Word declares about Christ reiging forever upon the literal throne of David. God even told us in His Word that He would establish that throne on earth to all generations, which means it still exists today upon this earth among the house of David waiting for Christ's coming to receive it (Gen.49:10; 2 Sam.7; Ps.89).

Supposed meekness will not change what God has already declared about Christ's Eternal Reign and Government. Either you align with God's Word as written, or you align with something else. It's that simple.

As for God's law after Christ's return, nowhere does God's Word infer His law will be exchanged for something else, for to love thy neighbor as thyself is from God's law in Leviticus 19. That was not a new idea that just began with the New Covenant when Christ came in the flesh. That's what James called the "royal law".


As for you quote from Elihu in the Book of Job, that's not good advice, for Job's three friends were trying to get Job to admit the cause of his affliction was some sin Job himself was responsible for. They wanted him to admit his sin in hope God would end Job's trial by their own false reasoning. So I wouldn't use their reasoning, for God rebuked them for it later.

Job 37:23-24
23 Touching the Almighty, we cannot find Him out: He is excellent in power, and in judgment, and in plenty of justice: He will not afflict.
24 Men do therefore fear Him: He respecteth not any that are wise of heart.
(KJV)


The deeper lesson with Job is how God loved Job and knew he would not deny Him, no matter what test was put upon him, showing that Job was one of God's chosen elect. And to prove that, God re-established everything to Job in double, which is a sign of God having chosen him. God already owned Job.




 

bud02

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There's a huge difference between your words, "Christ ruling in one's heart for ever" and what God's Word declares about Christ reiging forever upon the literal throne of David. God even told us in His Word that He would establish that throne on earth to all generations, which means it still exists today upon this earth among the house of David waiting for Christ's coming to receive it (Gen.49:10; 2 Sam.7; Ps.89).

Supposed meekness will not change what God has already declared about Christ's Eternal Reign and Government. Either you align with God's Word as written, or you align with something else. It's that simple.

As for God's law after Christ's return, nowhere does God's Word infer His law will be exchanged for something else, for to love thy neighbor as thyself is from God's law in Leviticus 19. That was not a new idea that just began with the New Covenant when Christ came in the flesh. That's what James called the "royal law".


As for you quote from Elihu in the Book of Job, that's not good advice, for Job's three friends were trying to get Job to admit the cause of his affliction was some sin Job himself was responsible for. They wanted him to admit his sin in hope God would end Job's trial by their own false reasoning. So I wouldn't use their reasoning, for God rebuked them for it later.

Job 37:23-24
23 Touching the Almighty, we cannot find Him out: He is excellent in power, and in judgment, and in plenty of justice: He will not afflict.
24 Men do therefore fear Him: He respecteth not any that are wise of heart.
(KJV)


The deeper lesson with Job is how God loved Job and knew he would not deny Him, no matter what test was put upon him, showing that Job was one of God's chosen elect. And to prove that, God re-established everything to Job in double, which is a sign of God having chosen him. God already owned Job.

An other lesson from Job that is over looked in your reply is that Job did nothing, Elihu was commenting on the known attributes of God, the attribute I take home from Job is; Gods lifting the protective hedge from around us doesn't always necessitate we have gone astray. It my simply mean its time for us to grow, or move on to a different field.

Do you see Elihu's name here?
Bildad......... Eliphaz.............Zophar
The Lord Rebukes Job’s Friends

Job 42

7 After the Lord had spoken these words to Job, the Lord said to Eliphaz mthe Temanite: “My anger burns against you and against your two friends, for you have not spoken of me what is right, as my servant Job has. 8 Now therefore take nseven bulls and seven rams and go to my servant Job and ooffer up a burnt offering for yourselves. And my servant Job shall ppray for you, for I will accept his prayer not to deal with you according to your folly. For you have not spoken of me what is right, as my servant Job has.” 9 qSo Eliphaz the Temanite and Bildad the Shuhite and Zophar the Naamathite went and did what the Lord had told them, and the Lord accepted Job’s prayer.

I suggest you search Elihu's name in Job it is written 7 times. Then read what he says, and to whom.

Im not going to comment on your other personal revelations but I will point out your miss handling of the book of Job.
 

Vengle53

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Why do you inflame yourself to lie against me? Are you hoping that by doing so others will also twist my words as you have?

walking in grace; God is my Rock. The only Stone you've run up against in your reasonings is His Word Jesus Christ.

You've come here pushing some falseness not supported in His Word:

1. you claimed that we all are responsible for Christ's crucifixion. You even tried to re-interpret Hebrews 6 to drum up Scripture support for that false claim, totally taking Heb.6 out of its context.

2. you promoted the false Pre-Trib "secret rapture" theory with your essay about the 144,000 and "Great Crowd". (I don't think Bud02 even realized that)

3. you've wrongly inferred that Christ's Eternal Throne and Reign is temporal, only for the Rev.20 "thousand years", which is a false idea.

4. you've declared that man was not meant to be subject to the idea of government, when Isaiah 9 declares the government will be upon Christ's shoulder at His coming, which shows the idea of Government will continue with Christ Jesus.

5. you've mocked how God has declared His Working through His Own elect through Bible history, accomplishing His Will through them overcoming their weak flesh nature.

6. you've inferred God's law will be non-existent in His Eternity with your false re-interpretation of Rom.2:14.

7. you've pushed the false idea that the seed of Israel are no longer important in God's Salvation.


What you've come here pushing is shaping up nicely as proof of you following your own heart and tradition, and not God's Word.

As to count one of your charges: I say that is exactly what I have said and until you repent of it you fool yourself.

As to count two of your charges: I say that shows how little you know as I do not even believe in the rapture. I only ever commented on the timing that the selection would be completed.

As to count three of your charges: what I have said is that God is the scepter (the real power) and the throne (the real authority) of Christ Jesus and that is eternal and will reign forever in our hearts as in heaven. All I have said is that the Messianic kingdom shown as the stone cut out of the side of the mountain at Daniel two serves the purpose of bringing all things back to that eternal throne of God by means of Christ Jesus until at such time as Jesus does the following: 1 Corinthians 15:28 "And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all." And Christ's power does not end there but the Messianic kingdom which is a secondary kingdom cut from out of God's kingdom does end by Christ's own will and love of his Father as 1 Cor 15:28 points to.

As to count four of your charges: What I said is that man is not meant to be ruled externally by government but is meant to let God rule within himself in his own heart through love toward the Father and the Son. Many who resist this idea merely have not yet learned how to: Matthew 23:26 "cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also." They are therefore dependent always to be governed from without. No such ones will be in God's kingdom for they are not made holy where it counts. And if they had been made holy where it counts then they would be the true image of God governing themselves from within by love.

As to count five of your charges: Your inability to understand what I say is what does that mocking.

As to count six of your charges: You are not at all speaking the truth about what I have said. I will let Paul defend me: Romans 3:31 "Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law."

As to count seven of your charges:
Wrong again. Will you never listen? I stand by Paul as to who those seed really are. And if you remain stuck not being able to see beyond your dieing flesh, well, that is on you.

Philippians 3:3 "For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh."

Calm your spirt and be willing to look before you condemn.

I will bear with you if you really would like to learn? Would you? Or, are you filled up?

Did you catch that bud02?

In count four I accidentally left the x out of the word externally. LOL !!! I would not want veteran to have a heart attack.

All it takes for that word to change from externally to eternally is to have a typo that omits a tiny little x.

Boy would veteran have loved that !!!
 

Vengle53

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It is not easy to be where you are in your journey veteran.

I still love you.

Afterall, you make me have to restate myself multiple times in different ways and that can serve a very useful purpose for the sake of others who also may look on.

Perhaps some of the same confusion concerning what I have spoken they struggle with also. Through your pressing me to restate myself in multiple ways they stand a greater chance to understand.

So thank you for your support veteran.
 

bud02

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Did you catch that bud02?

In count four I accidentally left the x out of the word externally. LOL !!! I would not want veteran to have a heart attack.

All it takes for that word to change from externally to eternally is to have a typo that omits a tiny little x.

Boy would veteran have loved that !!!

LOL yes I do.
I have a typo of my own....... I used the spell check and selected the wrong word. interdiction ....... introduction.... whats the difference LOL ;)

I affirm that sense as well, my post hinting at just that from the beginning of your interdiction to one another.

http://www.christian...dpost__p__98178
 

veteran

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An other lesson from Job that is over looked in your reply is that Job did nothing, Elihu was commenting on the known attributes of God,
the attribute I take home from Job is; Gods lifting the protective hedge from around us doesn't always necessitate we have gone astray. It my simply mean its time for us to grow, or move on to a different field.

Do you see Elihu's name here? Bildad......... Eliphaz.............Zophar
The Lord Rebukes Job’s Friends

Job 42

7 After the Lord had spoken these words to Job, the Lord said to Eliphaz mthe Temanite: “My anger burns against you and against your two friends, for you have not spoken of me what is right, as my servant Job has. 8 Now therefore take nseven bulls and seven rams and go to my servant Job and ooffer up a burnt offering for yourselves. And my servant Job shall ppray for you, for I will accept his prayer not to deal with you according to your folly. For you have not spoken of me what is right, as my servant Job has.” 9 qSo Eliphaz the Temanite and Bildad the Shuhite and Zophar the Naamathite went and did what the Lord had told them, and the Lord accepted Job’s prayer.

I suggest you search Elihu's name in Job it is written 7 times. Then read what he says, and to whom.

Im not going to comment on your other personal revelations but I will point out your miss handling of the book of Job.



Correct. Elihu's spill came later after Job's three friends couldn't convict Job of anything, yet were convinced that he had sinned.

Elihu is speaking to Job in Job 32 through 37. Elihu blamed Job as having sinned also, but for a different reason than the other three.




 

bud02

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Correct. Elihu's spill came later after Job's three friends couldn't convict Job of anything, yet were convinced that he had sinned.

Elihu is speaking to Job in Job 32 through 37. Elihu blamed Job as having sinned also, but for a different reason than the other three.

Partly right again. Look at what he says in the beginning. 32-2 He burned with anger at Job because he justified himself. He was upset because Job was accusing God of being unjust, because Job was without sin. In other words Job was calling God unjust. To keep from posting the next two chapters I'll simply post some of Elihu's words. Its pretty clear to see Elihu is a voice that speaks the words of the Lord. So much for our lesson on Job.

ch 33
[sup]8[/sup]"Surely you have spoken in my ears,
and I have heard the sound of your words.
[sup]9[/sup]You say, 'I am[sup](I)[/sup] pure, without[sup](J)[/sup] transgression;
I am clean, and there is no iniquity in me.
[sup]10[/sup]Behold, he finds occasions against me,
he[sup](K)[/sup] counts me as his enemy,
[sup]11[/sup]he[sup](L)[/sup] puts my feet in the stocks
and[sup](M)[/sup] watches all my paths.' [sup]12[/sup]"Behold, in this you are not right. I will answer you,
for God is greater than man.
[sup]13[/sup]Why do you[sup](N)[/sup] contend against him,
saying, 'He[sup](O)[/sup] will answer none of man’s[sup][a][/sup] words'?[sup][b][/sup]
[sup]14[/sup]For God[sup](P)[/sup] speaks in one way,
[sup](Q)[/sup] and in two, though man[sup](R)[/sup] does not perceive it.

[sup]15[/sup]In[sup](S)[/sup] a dream, in[sup](T)[/sup] a vision of[sup](U)[/sup] the night,
when deep sleep falls on men,
while they slumber on their beds,
[sup]16[/sup]then he[sup](V)[/sup] opens the ears of men
and terrifies them with warnings,
[sup]17[/sup]that he may turn man aside from his[sup](W)[/sup] deed
and conceal pride from a man;
[sup]18[/sup]he keeps back his soul from the pit,
his life from[sup](X)[/sup] perishing by the sword.

Ch 33
[sup]31[/sup]Pay attention, O Job, listen to me;
be silent, and I will speak.
[sup]32[/sup]If you have any words,[sup](AT)[/sup] answer me;
[sup](AU)[/sup] speak, for I desire to justify you.
[sup]33[/sup]If not,[sup](AV)[/sup] listen to me;
be silent, and I will teach you wisdom."


ch 34
[sup]10[/sup]"Therefore, hear me, you men of understanding:
far be it from God that he should[sup](I)[/sup] do wickedness,
and from the Almighty that he should do wrong.

[sup]11[/sup]For according to[sup](J)[/sup] the work of a man he will repay him,
and[sup](K)[/sup] according to his ways he will make it befall him.
[sup]12[/sup]Of a truth, God will not do wickedly,
and[sup](L)[/sup] the Almighty will not pervert justice.

[sup]13[/sup]Who gave him charge over the earth,
and who[sup](M)[/sup] laid on him[sup][a][/sup] the whole world?
[sup]14[/sup]If he should[sup](N)[/sup] set his heart to it
and[sup](O)[/sup] gather to himself his[sup](P)[/sup] spirit and his breath,
[sup]15[/sup]all flesh would perish together,
and man would[sup](Q)[/sup] return to dust.



Job 32 (English Standard Version)

Job 32

Elihu Rebukes Job’s Three Friends
[sup]1[/sup]So these three men ceased to answer Job, because he was[sup](A)[/sup] righteous in his own eyes. [sup]2[/sup]Then Elihu the son of Barachel[sup](B)[/sup] the Buzite, of the family of Ram, burned with anger. He burned with anger at Job because he justified himself[sup](C)[/sup] rather than God. [sup]3[/sup]He burned with anger also at Job’s three friends because they had found no answer, although they had[sup](D)[/sup] declared Job to be in the wrong. [sup]4[/sup]Now Elihu had waited to speak to Job because they were older than he. [sup]5[/sup]And when Elihu saw that there was no answer in the mouth of these three men, he burned with anger. [sup]6[/sup]And Elihu the son of Barachel the Buzite answered and said:

"I am young in years,
and you are[sup](E)[/sup] aged;
therefore I was timid and afraid
to declare my opinion to you.
[sup]7[/sup]I said, 'Let days speak,
and many years teach wisdom.'
[sup]8[/sup]But it is[sup](F)[/sup] the spirit in man,
[sup](G)[/sup] the breath of the Almighty, that makes him[sup](H)[/sup] understand.
[sup]9[/sup][sup](I)[/sup] It is not the old[sup][a][/sup] who are wise,
nor the aged who understand what is right.
[sup]10[/sup]Therefore I say, 'Listen to me;
let me also declare my opinion.'

[sup]11[/sup]"Behold, I waited for your words,
I listened for your wise sayings,
while you searched out what to say.
[sup]12[/sup]I gave you my attention,
and, behold, there was none among you who refuted Job
or who answered his words.
[sup]13[/sup]Beware[sup](J)[/sup] lest you say, 'We have found wisdom;
God may vanquish him, not a man.'
[sup]14[/sup]He has not directed his words against me,
and I will not answer him with your speeches.

[sup]15[/sup]"They are dismayed; they answer no more;
they have not a word to say.
[sup]16[/sup]And shall I wait, because they do not speak,
because they stand there, and answer no more?
[sup]17[/sup]I also will answer with my share;
I also will declare my opinion.
[sup]18[/sup]For I am full of words;
the spirit within me constrains me.
[sup]19[/sup]Behold, my belly is like wine that has no vent;
like new[sup](K)[/sup] wineskins ready to burst.
[sup]20[/sup][sup](L)[/sup] I must speak, that I may find[sup](M)[/sup] relief;
I must open my lips and answer.
[sup]21[/sup]I will not[sup](N)[/sup] show partiality to any man
or use flattery toward any person.
[sup]22[/sup]For I do not know how to flatter,
else my Maker would soon take me away.

 

veteran

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Why do you inflame yourself to lie against me? Are you hoping that by doing so others will also twist my words as you have?

Nobody here twisting your words. You're doing a pretty good job of that yourself.


As to count one of your charges:
I say that is exactly what I have said and until you repent of it you fool yourself.

I'm not fooling myself; I'm not the one pushing that false idea that all are guilty of Christ's crucifixion. I showed how you took Hebrews 6 out of its context also. You still stand charged.


As to count two of your charges:
I say that shows how little you know as I do not even believe in the rapture. I only ever commented on the timing that the selection would be completed.

You confused the Rev.7 matter totally, and did not bother to stay with what is written there. And you pushed the erroneous idea of one group there going through the tribulation, while the other group doesn't. That's the Pre-trib secret rapture theory. Otherwise, you would have clearly shown how 'both' of those groups in Rev.7 go through the tribulation, as written.


As to count three of your charges:
what I have said is that God is the scepter (the real power) and the throne (the real authority) of Christ Jesus and that is eternal and will reign forever in our hearts as in heaven. All I have said is that the Messianic kingdom shown as the stone cut out of the side of the mountain at Daniel two serves the purpose of bringing all things back to that eternal throne of God by means of Christ Jesus until at such time as Jesus does the following: 1 Corinthians 15:28 "And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all." And Christ's power does not end there but the Messianic kingdom which is a secondary kingdom cut from out of God's kingdom does end by Christ's own will and love of his Father as 1 Cor 15:28 points to.

That's still wrong, because God's Word declares how Christ's Reign and Sceptre will last for ever, EVEN AFTER THAT THOUSAND YEARS. What you're declaring is something different based on false reasoning of that sole 1 Cor.15:28 verse. Your interpretation of that 1 Cor.15:28 is your personal interpretation, and immediately creates a contradiction with many other Bible Scripture about Christ's Eternal Reign. It shows you've misunderstood that 1 Cor.15:28 verse. There is no mention of a "Messianic kingdom" in God's Word either, nor anything like "a secondary kingdom". There's coming God's Kingdom, and..., well, that's it. It BEGINS with Christ's return and our gathering to Him.

Moreover, that "Messianic kingdom" and "secondary kingdom" ideas shows how deceived you are about Christ's Divine Nature as GOD. Read Isaiah 9 again, and how Christ is called "The everlasting Father".


As to count four of your charges:
What I said is that man is not meant to be ruled externally by government but is meant to let God rule within himself in his own heart through love toward the Father and the Son. Many who resist this idea merely have not yet learned how to: Matthew 23:26 "cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also." They are therefore dependent always to be governed from without. No such ones will be in God's kingdom for they are not made holy where it counts. And if they had been made holy where it counts then they would be the true image of God governing themselves from within by love.

God's future Kingdom under His Son Jesus Christ will be an 'external' reign on earth also, not just a reign within the hearts of men. Can't have one without the other. In the Isaiah 9 Scripture, it's referred to as "the government" (Hebrew misrah, which also means 'empire'). Apostle Paul called it "the commonwealth of Israel" (politeia - a state of citizens). That means GOD will continue to govern the affairs of men in His Eternity.


As to count five of your charges:
Your inability to understand what I say is what does that mocking.

When you speak against God's working through His elect chosen nation of Israel in slighting His calling of them for sake of The Gospel going to Gentiles, then that is going against God's Word. Even the unbelieving Jews are still under His calling like Paul said in Romans 11. Paul also said God's gifts and calling are without repentance, meaning He won't go back on His promises He made to His chosen people of Israel. You simply don't understand what your own words imply.


As to count six of your charges:
You are not at all speaking the truth about what I have said. I will let Paul defend me: Romans 3:31 "
Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law."



Rom 2:13
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
(KJV)

There's the other part of that Romans 2 Scripture about Gentiles and the law which you left out. God's law cannot save anyone. But that doesn't mean His law has now ended and is no more, especially for Christ's future reign and into God's Eternity. I'm not as demanding about that as Eccl.12 is per his posts on God's law. Just because our Lord Jesus brought this time of His Grace will never mean the law is no more. God showed how putting His law in the hearts and minds of His people is part of the New Covenant Jesus Christ (Heb.8 & 10). Apostle Paul was not changing that, he was the one in Hebrews declaring that from the OT prophets.



As to count seven of your charges:
Wrong again. Will you never listen? I stand by Paul as to who those seed really are. And if you remain stuck not being able to see beyond your dieing flesh, well, that is on you.

Philippians 3:3 "For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh."

You've got the wrong idea, for I'm not preaching an Israel of the old flesh either. That's what you don't understand, like how Christ promised His Apostles they would sit upon thrones judging over the 12 tribes of Israel, and that still not having to do with THIS flesh world. That's in the future resurrection. And what did Paul say about flesh and blood not inheriting God's Kingdom?

Likewise with God's promises to His chosen seed of Israel, they will be established back to the original lands He promised their fathers, but in what state? In their spiritual bodies. Gentile believers are not going to usurp that, but we can become part of that with His chosen Israel, that is, the remnant of Israel according to the election of grace which God Himself preserved to Christ. That is about a seed of Israel today, but they like us will be changed when Christ returns. What Paul taught in Romans 9 about the spiritual seed idea still doesn't change that. Otherwise he would not have shown later in Rom.11 how God had preserved a remnant of Israel according to the election of grace under Christ.

This ultimately means God's Plan of Salvation has continued through the seed of Israel today, just as God promised them. Any attempt to separate that elect remnant seed of Israel from Christ's Church is to go against what Paul declared from many OT Scriptures.





 

veteran

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It is not easy to be where you are in your journey veteran.

I still love you.

Afterall, you make me have to restate myself multiple times in different ways and that can serve a very useful purpose for the sake of others who also may look on.

Perhaps some of the same confusion concerning what I have spoken they struggle with also. Through your pressing me to restate myself in multiple ways they stand a greater chance to understand.

So thank you for your support veteran.


I still love you too brother, and all the brethren here.

But it doesn't do you service to imply arrogance to what I've been quoting to you directly from God's Word. Would you like to go over that Romans 11 Scripture again about that remnant of literal Israel according to the election of grace Paul mentioned?

What about all the OT Scripture of God's prophets declaring the 12 tribes of Israel being re-established as a nation in the lands He promised them during Christ's future reign?

Do you really... think that Israel and Christ's Church are separate, like dan p began this thread about?
 

Vengle53

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[quote name=veteran]I'm not fooling myself; I'm not the one pushing that false idea that all are guilty of Christ's crucifixion. I showed how you took Hebrews 6 out of its context also. You still stand charged.

[/quote]

My previous comment that you are referring to:

In one of your posts here you were arguing that I am wrong that we are all responsible for crucifying Christ.

After all of your resistance to my saying that we all crucified Christ you quoted a scripture that says we did but you overlooked that part.

Here is the scripture you quoted: Hebrews 6:6 "If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."

That shows that we do not have to be one of the ones that were there literally crying out for his death. That shows that there are other ways we can cry out for his death and yet we are just as guilty as those who literally cried out for him to die. That shows that when we were living our life independent of God we were calling out for the Son to be crucified even without fully realizing it.

We can crucify him "afresh" because we are all guilty of his being crucified the first time.


[quote name=veteran]You confused the Rev.7 matter totally, and did not bother to stay with what is written there.

And you pushed the erroneous idea of one group there going through the tribulation, while the other group doesn't. That's the Pre-trib secret rapture theory. Otherwise, you would have clearly shown how 'both' of those groups in Rev.7 go through the tribulation, as written.

[/quote]



My previous comment that you are referring to:

And by that point it becomes irrelevant about fleshly Israel for all of the elect had been selected and sealed before the tribulation as shown earlier in Revelation chapter 7.

I later added:

I said that the entire earth-wide field of God that is the Israel of Revelation 7 corresponding to all 12 tribes of the fleshly Israel wherein God worked with all the people, even the stiff necked and disobedient ones.

There are many scriptures that show God taking hold of this earth and shaking it so as to shake the valuable things loose from it. And the emphasis as we see from Malachi is on refining the sons of Levi. The sons of Levi are those spiritual Jews who will be associate priests with Christ in his kingdom.



And still later I added:

They are the ones left in that world-wide Israel of Revelation 7 after the elect had all been selected out. Then the entire field is left to enter the greatest tribulation the world has ever known where those other sheep of that generation are shaken loose from the tares and the tares are destroyed once and for all times.


I believe God lets the remnant of the 144,000 go through the tribulation as I do not believe God would leave the other sheep without shepherding, especially during such hard times.

You have misinterpreted my use of the words “selected out”. To say that another way, “Just before the Great Tribulation begins, God’s selection of the 144,000 who are to be king/priests in association with Christ Jesus is finalized.”

And that is clearly what is shown, for, Rev. 7:9 “After this I beheld …” After what? After the finishing of the selection and sealing of the 144,000 (12,000 out of each of the 12 tribes)..... THEN……. “and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations…” Compare Revelation 7:13-14


[quote name=veteran]That's still wrong, because God's Word declares how Christ's Reign and Sceptre will last for ever, EVEN AFTER THAT THOUSAND YEARS. What you're declaring is something different based on false reasoning of that sole 1 Cor.15:28 verse. Your interpretation of that 1 Cor.15:28 is your personal interpretation, and immediately creates a contradiction with many other Bible Scripture about Christ's Eternal Reign. It shows you've misunderstood that 1 Cor.15:28 verse. There is no mention of a "Messianic kingdom" in God's Word either, nor anything like "a secondary kingdom". There's coming God's Kingdom, and..., well, that's it. It BEGINS with Christ's return and our gathering to Him.

Moreover, that "Messianic kingdom" and "secondary kingdom" ideas shows how deceived you are about Christ's Divine Nature as GOD. Read Isaiah 9 again, and how Christ is called "The everlasting Father".

[/quote]


He is the everlasting Father. He is the last Adam that took the place of the first Adam.

1 Corinthians 15:45 “And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.”

John 6:53 “Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.”


Quote of me:

As to count four of your charges: What I said is that man is not meant to be ruled externally by

government but is meant to let God rule within himself in his own heart through love toward the Father and

the Son. Many who resist this idea merely have not yet learned how to: Matthew 23:26 "cleanse first that

which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also." They are

therefore dependent always to be governed from without. No such ones will be in God's kingdom for they are

not made holy where it counts. And if they had been made holy where it counts then they would be the true

image of God governing themselves from within by love.


[quote name=veteran]God's future Kingdom under His Son Jesus Christ will be an 'external' reign on earth also, not just a reign within the hearts of men. Can't have one without the other. In the Isaiah 9 Scripture, it's referred to as "the government" (Hebrew misrah, which also means 'empire').

Apostle Paul called it "the commonwealth of Israel" (politeia - a state of citizens). That means GOD will continue to govern the affairs of men in His Eternity.

[/quote]


I may have fumbled the ball a bit on that point. We are told that he will walk among us which puts us in mind of his walking with Adam in the Garden of Eden.

But the point remains that it is a different type of rule and not the one of handwritten codes and ordnances such as this world tries to regulate obedience through.

The New Jerusalem is shown descending from heaven to eternally exist with men at Revelation 21:1-8.

So, your point is well taken veteran. It’s the Proverb proved true, Proverbs 10:19 “In the multitude of words there shall not want sin: but he that refrain his lips is most wise.”

Yet I would be remiss if I let you think that I am saying that I think you see the entire picture, because I believe you are only seeing a small piece of it. Hopefully I will see any pieces of what I am missing in what you see. So that is a two-way street.

I like to try to avoid getting into the discussion of translation but I think I am going to have to do so.

The problem with translation discussion is that there has come to be a slew of so-called experts that have butchered the rules so that it is as dangerous to tread in as religion with all of its doctrinal variations. If anyone wants to find support for some hair brain idea, they can usually find it invented somewhere.

I would therefore like to suggest you find a set of Interpreter’s Encyclopedias and look up Psalms 45:6 and Hebrews 1:8 before I discuss their translation with you.

I will talk more about the Messianic kingdom at another time.

But you are right that it is eternal. I was clearly wrong in what I said.

Daniel 2:44 “And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.”

The following does not negate what Daniel says there, it merely lays down the staff of punishment as it is no longer needed.

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

I want to add just one final thought for this reply:

The fact that Christ's kingdom is not set up until "in the days of these kings" and it is shown to be a stone cut out of God's mountain shows that it is not the main part of God's kingdom but a specially made branch for a particular purpose.
 

veteran

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My previous comment that you are referring to:
In one of your posts here you were arguing that I am wrong that we are all responsible for crucifying Christ.

After all of your resistance to my saying that we all crucified Christ you quoted a scripture that says we did but you overlooked that part.

Here is the scripture you quoted: Hebrews 6:6 "If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."

That shows that we do not have to be one of the ones that were there literally crying out for his death. That shows that there are other ways we can cry out for his death and yet we are just as guilty as those who literally cried out for him to die. That shows that when we were living our life independent of God we were calling out for the Son to be crucified even without fully realizing it.

We can crucify him "afresh" because we are all guilty of his being crucified the first time.


What you're saying is not what that Hebrews 6 Scripture is about. It is NOT proof that all are guilty of Christ's literal crucifixion. The scribes and Pharisees and chief priest demanded Christ's crucifixion; they are the guilty ones, and Christ showed that about them in John 8 and Scripture where He said the blood of the prophets was upon 'them'.

Heb.6 gives no support for your idea. Instead, Heb.6 is about a believer on Christ AFTER His crucifixion who turns away from Him to try to renew His saving grace after having been shown with evidence. A believer that does that is like 'figuratively' crucifying Christ all over again. It is not implying that a believer was actually guilty of Christ's literal crucifixion by the unbelieving Jews.


My previous comment that you are referring to:
And by that point it becomes irrelevant about fleshly Israel for all of the elect had been selected and sealed before the tribulation as shown earlier in Revelation chapter 7.

I later added:

I said that the entire earth-wide field of God that is the Israel of Revelation 7 corresponding to all 12 tribes of the fleshly Israel wherein God worked with all the people, even the stiff necked and disobedient ones.

There are many scriptures that show God taking hold of this earth and shaking it so as to shake the valuable things loose from it. And the emphasis as we see from Malachi is on refining the sons of Levi. The sons of Levi are those spiritual Jews who will be associate priests with Christ in his kingdom.

And still later I added:

They are the ones left in that world-wide Israel of Revelation 7 after the elect had all been selected out. Then the entire field is left to enter the greatest tribulation the world has ever known where those other sheep of that generation are shaken loose from the tares and the tares are destroyed once and for all times.

I believe God lets the remnant of the 144,000 go through the tribulation as I do not believe God would leave the other sheep without shepherding, especially during such hard times.

You have misinterpreted my use of the words “selected out”. To say that another way, “Just before the Great Tribulation begins, God’s selection of the 144,000 who are to be king/priests in association with Christ Jesus is finalized.”

And that is clearly what is shown, for, Rev. 7:9 “After this I beheld …” After what? After the finishing of the selection and sealing of the 144,000 (12,000 out of each of the 12 tribes)..... THEN……. “and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations…” Compare Revelation 7:13-14


You said the following:
"JWs also taught that only the 144,000 are spiritual Israelites. That is true in a sense as one must prove to be a prevails with God to have that status. But in the case of these other sheep throughout each generation we cannot yet say which ones of them will in the finale prove to be Israelites. They are the ones left in that world-wide Israel of Revelation 7 after the elect had all been selected out. Then the entire field is left to enter the greatest tribulation the world has ever known where those other sheep of that generation are shaken loose from the tares and the tares are destroyed once and for all times. That last tribulation is specifically for shaking loose the nucleus number of other sheep that are yet alive in that last generation and the taught but not as yet fully matured will be resurrected to join them. None of them really are said to come alive until the thousand years are ended. That is because they must become holy as he is holy. That means they will have to pass the final hour of testing. Revelation 7:17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes."

You're right about that phrase "selected out", for it is very misleading, and points more towards a Pre-trib rapture view. It's more important to speak plainly to be easily understood than to ramble from surrealistic thought processes that can go on in one's mind if allowed.


He is the everlasting Father. He is the last Adam that took the place of the first Adam.

1 Corinthians 15:45 “And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.”

John 6:53 “Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.”

I can see that you're so used to pulling out a single verse to use it how you want that it continually gets you out of focus of what the Scripture context and subject is. The subject on that point is about Christ's future reign in God's Kingdom, not a "Messianic kingdom" nor some "secondary kingdom." The matter is actually about God's Kingdom once Christ returns, then during the thousand years, and then after the thousand years into the eternity. At no point after Christ's coming to reign does God's Word show His throne and reign will end, or that it was only temporary for the Milennium.


Quote of me:

As to count four of your charges: What I said is that man is not meant to be ruled externally by

government but is meant to let God rule within himself in his own heart through love toward the Father and

the Son. Many who resist this idea merely have not yet learned how to: Matthew 23:26 "cleanse first that

which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also." They are

therefore dependent always to be governed from without. No such ones will be in God's kingdom for they are

not made holy where it counts. And if they had been made holy where it counts then they would be the true

image of God governing themselves from within by love.

By that you've implied Christ's future Government to be a surrealistic mystical thing, and not a Kingdom with actual substance in real manifestation upon this earth. Christ Jesus is our KING and HIGH PRIEST, even forever. A king must have a king-dom, for that's what the word means. Many interpret our Lord's words in Luke 17:21 in a mystical occult sense when our Lord Jesus was speaking of the world to come with a Kingdom that will manifest literally on this earth. Howbeit, it still involves "the government" idea given in Isaiah 9, with a real structure upon this earth involving the New Jerusalem Holy City, its gates, etc., not a hippie commune where everyone walks around saying, 'peace, love, dove'.


I may have fumbled the ball a bit on that point. We are told that he will walk among us which puts us in mind of his walking with Adam in the Garden of Eden.

But the point remains that it is a different type of rule and not the one of handwritten codes and ordnances such as this world tries to regulate obedience through.

The New Jerusalem is shown descending from heaven to eternally exist with men at Revelation 21:1-8.

So, your point is well taken veteran. It’s the Proverb proved true, Proverbs 10:19 “In the multitude of words there shall not want sin: but he that refrain his lips is most wise.”

Yet I would be remiss if I let you think that I am saying that I think you see the entire picture, because I believe you are only seeing a small piece of it. Hopefully I will see any pieces of what I am missing in what you see. So that is a two-way street.

I like to try to avoid getting into the discussion of translation but I think I am going to have to do so.

The problem with translation discussion is that there has come to be a slew of so-called experts that have butchered the rules so that it is as dangerous to tread in as religion with all of its doctrinal variations. If anyone wants to find support for some hair brain idea, they can usually find it invented somewhere.

I would therefore like to suggest you find a set of Interpreter’s Encyclopedias and look up Psalms 45:6 and Hebrews 1:8 before I discuss their translation with you.

I've shown you a multitude of Scripture on various points in our discussion, few of which you have addressed. And now you want to dictate the rules of the discussion? We all make mistakes. But that's not the real point of this discussion.

The subject thread is the question about dan p's idea of Jews being separate from Gentiles. I showed from many Scriptures how believing Jews cannot be separate from believing Gentiles as Christ's Church and in the makeup of God's future Kingdom of Israel, which Paul called the "commonwealth of Israel". I've shown how God has kept His promises to literal Israel even today, and how that will continue into His Eternity under Christ Jesus and His Apostles, with believing Gentiles graffed in with them. I've shown how God promised David his throne was to be unto all generations until Christ returns to claim it. I've shown how God continued His Salvation through an elect seed of Israel scattered among the Gentiles. I've shown how Christ's throne and reign will last for ever and ever, everlasting, with "the government" upon His shoulder.

And what that has done in the process, is to show how those that follow religion after men's traditions can get away from those Truths written in God's Word, and create ideas in their head that sound close to the Truth, but are actually far away from it.



I will talk more about the Messianic kingdom at another time.

There is no such thing as a "Messianic kingdom" in God's Word. So any talk about it would be fruitless. It's only an term of men that has somehow crept into your mind from other sources than God's Holy Writ.


But you are right that it is eternal. I was clearly wrong in what I said.

Daniel 2:44 “And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.”

The following does not negate what Daniel says there, it merely lays down the staff of punishment as it is no longer needed.

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

I want to add just one final thought for this reply:

The fact that Christ's kingdom is not set up until "in the days of these kings" and it is shown to be a stone cut out of God's mountain shows that it is not the main part of God's kingdom but a specially made branch for a particular purpose.

The more proper way to understand it is, that God's Kingdom will begin with Christ's future literal reign on earth over all nations, but will be completed only after all unrighteousness is destroyed. As to 'how' it will literally manifest upon this earth, God showed us already through His OT prophets. That's why Apostle Peter admonished us to be mindful of the writings of the prophets in his lesson of 2 Pet.3, which is about the subject of God's Kingdom in relation to this earth being changed.

But just trusting in the New Testament Books only for that information of how God's Kingdom will manifest on earth through Christ is not enough. That's what has led many brethren to create dreams of their own in their minds about it, instead of heeding how God showed it will manifest on this earth per His prophets. Some treat it like it has nothing to do with an earth at all, totally omitting its details God gave through His prophets. At the end of Isaiah 19 we're shown that Egypt, Assyria, and Israel will each be a third in God's future Kingdom, with a highway leading from Egypt to Assyria. In Ezekiel 47 we're shown God's River of the waters of Life and the tree of life established on earth beginning with Christ's future thousand years reign. How many brethren thought that River and tree of life were only but figurative things involving metaphors for Christ? That's what New Testament Book only study will do, create a tether that limits understanding.
 

Vengle53

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What you're saying is not what that Hebrews 6 Scripture is about. It is NOT proof that all are guilty of Christ's literal crucifixion. The scribes and Pharisees and chief priest demanded Christ's crucifixion; they are the guilty ones, and Christ showed that about them in John 8 and Scripture where He said the blood of the prophets was upon 'them'.

Heb.6 gives no support for your idea. Instead, Heb.6 is about a believer on Christ AFTER His crucifixion who turns away from Him to try to renew His saving grace after having been shown with evidence. A believer that does that is like 'figuratively' crucifying Christ all over again. It is not implying that a believer was actually guilty of Christ's literal crucifixion by the unbelieving Jews.




You said the following:
"JWs also taught that only the 144,000 are spiritual Israelites. That is true in a sense as one must prove to be a prevails with God to have that status. But in the case of these other sheep throughout each generation we cannot yet say which ones of them will in the finale prove to be Israelites. They are the ones left in that world-wide Israel of Revelation 7 after the elect had all been selected out. Then the entire field is left to enter the greatest tribulation the world has ever known where those other sheep of that generation are shaken loose from the tares and the tares are destroyed once and for all times. That last tribulation is specifically for shaking loose the nucleus number of other sheep that are yet alive in that last generation and the taught but not as yet fully matured will be resurrected to join them. None of them really are said to come alive until the thousand years are ended. That is because they must become holy as he is holy. That means they will have to pass the final hour of testing. Revelation 7:17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes."

You're right about that phrase "selected out", for it is very misleading, and points more towards a Pre-trib rapture view. It's more important to speak plainly to be easily understood than to ramble from surrealistic thought processes that can go on in one's mind if allowed.




I can see that you're so used to pulling out a single verse to use it how you want that it continually gets you out of focus of what the Scripture context and subject is. The subject on that point is about Christ's future reign in God's Kingdom, not a "Messianic kingdom" nor some "secondary kingdom." The matter is actually about God's Kingdom once Christ returns, then during the thousand years, and then after the thousand years into the eternity. At no point after Christ's coming to reign does God's Word show His throne and reign will end, or that it was only temporary for the Milennium.




By that you've implied Christ's future Government to be a surrealistic mystical thing, and not a Kingdom with actual substance in real manifestation upon this earth. Christ Jesus is our KING and HIGH PRIEST, even forever. A king must have a king-dom, for that's what the word means. Many interpret our Lord's words in Luke 17:21 in a mystical occult sense when our Lord Jesus was speaking of the world to come with a Kingdom that will manifest literally on this earth. Howbeit, it still involves "the government" idea given in Isaiah 9, with a real structure upon this earth involving the New Jerusalem Holy City, its gates, etc., not a hippie commune where everyone walks around saying, 'peace, love, dove'.




I've shown you a multitude of Scripture on various points in our discussion, few of which you have addressed. And now you want to dictate the rules of the discussion? We all make mistakes. But that's not the real point of this discussion.

The subject thread is the question about dan p's idea of Jews being separate from Gentiles. I showed from many Scriptures how believing Jews cannot be separate from believing Gentiles as Christ's Church and in the makeup of God's future Kingdom of Israel, which Paul called the "commonwealth of Israel". I've shown how God has kept His promises to literal Israel even today, and how that will continue into His Eternity under Christ Jesus and His Apostles, with believing Gentiles graffed in with them. I've shown how God promised David his throne was to be unto all generations until Christ returns to claim it. I've shown how God continued His Salvation through an elect seed of Israel scattered among the Gentiles. I've shown how Christ's throne and reign will last for ever and ever, everlasting, with "the government" upon His shoulder.

And what that has done in the process, is to show how those that follow religion after men's traditions can get away from those Truths written in God's Word, and create ideas in their head that sound close to the Truth, but are actually far away from it.





There is no such thing as a "Messianic kingdom" in God's Word. So any talk about it would be fruitless. It's only an term of men that has somehow crept into your mind from other sources than God's Holy Writ.




The more proper way to understand it is, that God's Kingdom will begin with Christ's future literal reign on earth over all nations, but will be completed only after all unrighteousness is destroyed. As to 'how' it will literally manifest upon this earth, God showed us already through His OT prophets. That's why Apostle Peter admonished us to be mindful of the writings of the prophets in his lesson of 2 Pet.3, which is about the subject of God's Kingdom in relation to this earth being changed.

But just trusting in the New Testament Books only for that information of how God's Kingdom will manifest on earth through Christ is not enough. That's what has led many brethren to create dreams of their own in their minds about it, instead of heeding how God showed it will manifest on this earth per His prophets. Some treat it like it has nothing to do with an earth at all, totally omitting its details God gave through His prophets. At the end of Isaiah 19 we're shown that Egypt, Assyria, and Israel will each be a third in God's future Kingdom, with a highway leading from Egypt to Assyria. In Ezekiel 47 we're shown God's River of the waters of Life and the tree of life established on earth beginning with Christ's future thousand years reign. How many brethren thought that River and tree of life were only but figurative things involving metaphors for Christ? That's what New Testament Book only study will do, create a tether that limits understanding.



You presume too much.

Are you saying that I wasted 7 years of Bible college?
 

Vengle53

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Let’s approach again sticking to one item at a time rather than all of (what has become) the usual massive mixing of subject matter. That manner of multiple mixing of subjects is somewhat like the dropping of scatter bombs. It does not appeal to me as I have no desire to war outside of the principles of love.

Sometimes when a subject is being discussed there are related issues that when addressed do seem to the other party as though unrelated. Let’s seek first to understand and then to be understood in connection with what we perceive as unrelated, but one item at a time. Let’s not jump to an assumption that the other person is ignorant of history or deliberately trying to go off subject, but instead season our words with mildness and patience as befits a minister of the gospel of Christ.



[quote name=veteran]What you're saying is not what that Hebrews 6 Scripture is about. It is NOT proof that all are guilty of Christ's literal crucifixion. The scribes and Pharisees and chief priest demanded Christ's crucifixion; they are the guilty ones, and Christ showed that about them in John 8 and Scripture where He said the blood of the prophets was upon 'them'.

Heb.6 gives no support for your idea. Instead, Heb.6 is about a believer on Christ AFTER His crucifixion who turns away from Him to try to renew His saving grace after having been shown with evidence. A believer that does that is like 'figuratively' crucifying Christ all over again. It is not implying that a believer was actually guilty of Christ's literal crucifixion by the unbelieving Jews.
[/quote]




We both know that Hebrews 6 is, as you said, “about a believer on Christ AFTER His crucifixion who turns away from Him to try to renew”.

I never said it was about anything else. Your inability to understand what I said may perhaps be due to my own poor expression of my thought, but that is irrelevant.

I was drawing attention to principles discernable within the Hebrew 6 statement. That principle is that one does not need to directly call out for Christ to be crucified, as they can call out for it in actions which conform to why he was crucified. And that is what we see this more advance one in Christ there at Hebrews 6 having done.

If you disagree that we are all responsible that is your right, even as it is my right to see that I have expanded through my studies to a broader view of it. Both of us answer to God, not to each other. Can we now agree to put that to rest?