Intriguing

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Shingy

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I met an odd atheist the other day. We started out talking about the validity of the Bible, and later on discussed the evidence supporting a finite universe. Shortly after he said something that most atheists never say and it was against our God. He stated simply that He doesn't exist. I told him that to claim an absolute was the height of arrogance because he cannot possibly search the entire universe, or beyond(because God is transcendant, too) and thus he cannot logically rule out God. He then went on to say the usual (blah blah then you can't rule out unicorns as god) and I told him why our God is more probable than unicorns or Allah. His intruiging statement was something like, "If God is omniscient, then why are you telling me I have to look everywhere for him? If he is everywhere, then shouldn't I have to look in one place, and if I don't see him, then he doesn't exist." Because I've never encountered such a question/statement I was naturally taken aback. I answered by telling him more about the teleogical argument, however he has valid objections to the argument. I was going to tell him that he has to take the leap of faith before seeing God, but I knew that wasn't going to fly well with him. This was today, and I'm still wondering what else I should have said. What do you think? :Sigh:Oh and I have another thought on my mind. It's about agnostic theism which is similar to Deism in a way. A feelow Christian was explaining to me the other day that agnostic is simply being honest about our faith and recognising that there is not much evidence for Him, and so this is where faith and the important aspect of doubt come into play. This makes sense to me. Because we can't be 100% certain that God exists can we? If we were 100% positive then where is the faith in that? Because only with faith we can please God, isn't it correct to say that all true Christian's are agnostic? :sigh:
 

Jordan

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I think "agnostic" for "agnostic" Christian means "we can't understand God and His Words. But really, once thou hast wonder if God exist 100%...well friend, if thou wonder if God exist or not, then Lucy hast planted a seed of doubt in thee.Yea, we can say safely that God exist...because 1. He can't lie. (Romans 3:4) and we can. (Psalms 116:11) And the LORD God says that we need every word in Deuteronomy 8:3 And Lord Jesus Christ repeats those words from the Old Testaments in Matthew 4:4 and Luke 4:4Hope thou can see that. I say this the truth in love. I love thee so much..Just like Christ loved us so much...for God is love. (1 John 4:8)We must have faith in Christ...God wants us to have a childlike faith. (Matthew 18:3)Loveth thee in Christ Jesus our Lord and Saviour.
 

Shingy

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Mar 26, 2007
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Jag, what is wrong with doubt? If I am "gnostic" and by this I mean absolutely sure that God exists, then where is faith to be had?Also, I figured out the answer to my first question. I found it by looking back at an older post I made. I can't make a nonbeliever believe with logic; it happens by living like Christ and Him working in our lives.ps: I also made a mistake by stating "omniscience". I had meant omniprescence
 

Jordan

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It depend how what people doubt... I difinately doubt that the traditions of man (man's doctrine) is helpful, because it only destroys the truth...And yes, thou art correct on that, we can't make a nonbeliever see the things we see nor make them believe in God...Lovest thou in Christ Jesus our Lord and Saviour...
 

Christina

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Often people make their own god by choosing a little from this religion, a little from that and come up with something that makes them feel comfortable ... a god that suits their lifestyle. No one will get to heaven through any religious activity or by being a good person or by doing certain things or by going to a particular church or by being baptised or anything else other than trusting in Jesus. The Bible says, "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith - and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God - not by works, so that no one can boast" (Ephesians 2:8-9). Jesus is the only way to receive forgiveness for sins and to be sure of heaven and He said that we must be born again to enter the kingdom of God (John 3:3).
 

John

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ShingyThis is what I say to atheists , weather it helps or not I don't know , but I feel better saying it. To me it boils down to this, either there is a creator or the universe created it selfWhich takes more faith, that nothing created everything or there is a God . I for one find it easer to believe in God ,then believe nothing created everything. I really don't see any other choices. Either God is or the universe created itself
 

HammerStone

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I've heard an even simpler argument that I have to say makes a lot of sense. It gets down to what John said above: If I believe in God, and I am wrong, so what? If I don't believe in God, and I am wrong, that leaves me in trouble to say the least. When it all boils down to it, you cannot logically argue God - particularly to people who want to approach things from a "logical" standpoint. Reasoning through terms comes down to the better mind which does not necessarily equate to the truth. For example, Thomas Hobbes argued that good is fully defined by what is desired most for each specific person in each specific case. It's very hard to refute this statement, but if that were truly the case, what about the man who dives in front of a car to save someone else? On one hand, you could argue that it's the desire of the man to save the person, but on the other hand it's just as easy to argue that it's against the man's desires and the odds are he will die doing this. I'm not a fan of reasoning out God based on postulations and assumptions. For example, how does this guy understand omnipresence if he has never experienced it? Is omnipresence observable through sight? I think you'll get the gist - this could go on for a while.
 

writer4hisglory

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I think that you are wrong, Swampfox. You, by your statement above, are saying that it is illogical to believe in God. I say give me a logician, it is better to reason with him concerning the Scriptures than one who tosses logic out the door.
 

HammerStone

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You're completely missing what I am saying here. There's nothing illogical about God. However, you cannot reason with these logical types because they're looking for answers on a level where they will not find them. I did not make the statement to mean that believing in God is illogical. I did, however, make the statement that there are some people looking to find God through postulations and the logic of man. This is not going to happen. You either accept our Father as God, or you don't. There's no way to postulate this because you're going to quickly become bogged down by the words of men such as hinging on what the definition of is is to quote a famous debacle.
 

Shingy

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Mar 26, 2007
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(thesuperjag;9925)
It depend how what people doubt... I difinately doubt that the traditions of man (man's doctrine) is helpful, because it only destroys the truth...And yes, thou art correct on that, we can't make a nonbeliever see the things we see nor make them believe in God...Lovest thou in Christ Jesus our Lord and Saviour...
I don't understand...I see only one way to doubt. By 'doubt' I mean it by its definition; to be unsure about God's existence, like agnosticism. Because I'm not sure, I have to believe by having faith, and if I was 100% sure, I wouldn't need faith, thus making God unhappy with me because only by faith can we pleasing him.Thank you Kriss for your statements and providing Scripture.(John;9951)
ShingyThis is what I say to atheists , weather it helps or not I don't know , but I feel better saying it. To me it boils down to this, either there is a creator or the universe created it selfWhich takes more faith, that nothing created everything or there is a God . I for one find it easer to believe in God ,then believe nothing created everything. I really don't see any other choices. Either God is or the universe created itself
Well, generally, an atheist does not claim that nothing created itself. They merely say that it cannot be known and they will put no faith in any decision. That is why I said it was an "odd atheist" I met.(SwampFox;9952)
I've heard an even simpler argument that I have to say makes a lot of sense. It gets down to what John said above: If I believe in God, and I am wrong, so what? If I don't believe in God, and I am wrong, that leaves me in trouble to say the least. When it all boils down to it, you cannot logically argue God - particularly to people who want to approach things from a "logical" standpoint. Reasoning through terms comes down to the better mind which does not necessarily equate to the truth. For example, Thomas Hobbes argued that good is fully defined by what is desired most for each specific person in each specific case. It's very hard to refute this statement, but if that were truly the case, what about the man who dives in front of a car to save someone else? On one hand, you could argue that it's the desire of the man to save the person, but on the other hand it's just as easy to argue that it's against the man's desires and the odds are he will die doing this. I'm not a fan of reasoning out God based on postulations and assumptions. For example, how does this guy understand omnipresence if he has never experienced it? Is omnipresence observable through sight? I think you'll get the gist - this could go on for a while.
I'm going to read this again later. I have to visit this website when the sun is out next time!
 

Jordan

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Apr 6, 2007
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I don't understand...I see only one way to doubt. By 'doubt' I mean it by its definition; to be unsure about God's existence, like agnosticism. Because I'm not sure, I have to believe by having faith, and if I was 100% sure, I wouldn't need faith, thus making God unhappy with me because only by faith can we pleasing him.
Actually Shingy, even though I know God exist, 100%, Can we prove it? Nay, because of it, it is still faith, (Hebrews 11:6) because mankind will try to get us out of from God and Lord Jesus Christ...Lovest thou in Christ Jesus our Lord.
 

betchevy

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The statement Swampfox made about If God doesn't exists and you believe, you lose nothing, if He exists and you do not believe you are in trouble, is a famous tho somewhat loose quote of either Potolmy or Robesspier..I do believe them both to be known to be famous logicians . I remember the quote from Philosphy 101, but cannot remember from whom it comes...one of these two I believe..Writer
 

Shingy

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Mar 26, 2007
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(thesuperjag;9969)
Actually Shingy, even though I know God exist, 100%, Can we prove it? Nay, because of it, it is still faith, (Hebrews 11:6) because mankind will try to get us out of from God and Lord Jesus Christ...Lovest thou in Christ Jesus our Lord.
I see what you mean, you know through your faith. I guess you're gnostic that way and I'm agnostic because I don't feel like I know yet. Ofc ourse that takes time though, like Betchevy told me.(SwampFox;9952)
I've heard an even simpler argument that I have to say makes a lot of sense. It gets down to what John said above: If I believe in God, and I am wrong, so what? If I don't believe in God, and I am wrong, that leaves me in trouble to say the least.
But if God exists, it begs the question, which God is it? The theist will say, "but ofcourse, it is my God." Because the comsological, telelogical etc, evidence can be harnessed by nearly all forms of theism, faith again is necessary. I think the answers may be a little more complicated than "I'm right," or "I'm wrong." Because it could be that we're wrong and the real Creator decides to punish us for followung false prophets. Of course I wouldn't dream of that happening.