new version of OSAS?
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Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
So you're saying continued believing is being disobedient and being guilty of unbelief? Seriously? Don't you think it's the person who turns his back on Christ and goes back to his sinning in unbelief is the one who is being disobedient and guilty of unbelief? Surely, you do.
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
No, it's your style, not your doctrine. Your doctrine doesn't mean anything to me, personally. I'm a born again, Spirit filled believer. I'm not living in the realm of your theoretical 'purposely living in sin and unbelief saved person'. So your doctrine doesn't hit any nerves with me personally, but your angry, impolite, judgmental ranting does.
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
God as my witness, it's not that. It's your demeanor that's the problem.
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
Then why did the sinning man in the church at Corinth have to be turned over to satan "so that his spirit may be saved on the Day of the Lord" 1 Corinthians 5:5? If he's already saved and can't be unsaved why does he have to be turned over to satan so he might be saved when Jesus comes back? According to you he's already saved and always will be saved making that action to be saved unnecessary.
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
God doesn't lose believers. He cuts unbelievers loose if they refuse to come back to him because they don't want to come back to him.
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
I think it is talking about water baptism. That would be consistent with the 'pledge of a good conscience' in the passage (1 Peter 3:21). When you get water baptized it is you, a disciple of Christ, publicly identifying yourself as a disciple of Christ and making a pledge to keep a clean conscience in obedience to Him.
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
Don't you understand the difference between the 'once saved always saved' from the 1500's and the new revised 'once saved always saved' of today? The old one is still around, but it is being replaced by the new 'once saved always saved'.
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
The new one does. It says even if you go back to unbelief you are still saved and a part of Christ's body, and that you will be saved when he returns. The old, original 'once saved always saved' taught that if you went back to unbelief that shows you were never really saved to begin with. It never taught that an unbeliever was saved. It also taught that if you are living in willful, unrepentant sin that also shows you were never really saved to begin with. I agree that living in sin is ultimately living in unbelief. I disagree that it means you were never a true believer. I believe a true believer can go back to sinning in unbelief. But that fundamental argument is not a life and death issue. Because it guards the issue that is life or death—the necessity for continued believing in order to be saved when Jesus comes back. That is what counts. It does not matter if believers will automatically do that, of if you have to make a conscious decision to do that. What counts is that you do that!
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
The old Osas defines it one way, the new Osas defines it another. That's what this thread is about.
No one over the age of two or three is innocent. As soon as we say "no" or "I didn't do it" when we really did, we've transgressed the commandment and are condemned by the law, but God's grace is greater than the law. I sympathize with you and your anger over false gospels and distortions that have an evil impact on the hearers. I've struggled with the same issues for many years, but the scripture says " be angry and do not sin". Anger isn't a sin it's an emotion, but how we respond to the emotion can most definitely be sin as serious as murder.
We may all have the same basic bodies by design, but we aren't all built the same way. I can't say just how the Lord does it, but He's built some of us for war, some of us for law enforcement or fire fighting, some of us as healers, some of us as defenders, etc. and I don't mean simply by body type, but by the way we think, the way that we react to situations, the way we interact socially, etc. We think of our vocations as a matter of choice, but we choose them or settle into them because they meet our needs and suit our abilities and personalities. I have a certain disdain for weakness, because I was raised by people who value strength, but my parents where absolutely blind to their own weaknesses and I'm sure that I was no better. We frequently create rules for our own conduct and then judge other people by them, yet ignore those times when we break our own rules.
The church has a place in disciplining members of the congregation that are sinning or causing division and strife, but through a process and determination by elders not by congregants, not by the spiritually immature, not by those still caught up in carnality of deeds. God is a God of order and so His church is to be orderly.
I would rather be ejected from the community than tolerate the presence of the cults, but our calling, collectively, is to win people over to Christ, not crush all opposition.
11 Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. 12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places. 13 Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. Ephesians 6:11-13
Gentleness, meekness, mildness, humility are all qualities required in ministry, but don't come to all naturally. The problem is in part that the world despises these qualities and we all start out in the world. It's not an easy thing to humble yourself, to taste gall and swallow pride, but it's far better to humble yourself than be humbled under the hand of God. Trust me, I speak from experience.
Church discipline has become largely ineffective in our time, because it's far too easy to simply leave a place where sin is rebuked and go to another eager to accept new faces. God, however, is not so easily avoided and will not leave us in the filth of our own sin. That just isn't the character of love.
I knew a Pastor once, who was prone to outbursts of unclean speech. His anger may have been righteous (or not), but despite his excellent training and sound theology, he was fired by the church elders. If he'd been willing to hear godly council and address his own issues, he might still be Pastor of that congregation.
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Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
No, the 'stones' won't crumble, or be burned up. Those members of the visible church in this age that are made of 'wood, hay, or straw' are the ones who will get burned up and purged from the people of God, the field and building of God, in the coming judgment of fire.
"Surely they are like stubble; the fire will burn them up." Isaiah 47:14
"The peoples will be burned to ashes, like thorns cut down and set ablaze." Isaiah 33:12
"Not so the wicked! For they are like chaff driven off by the wind. Therefore the wicked will not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the assembly of the righteous." Psalm 1:4-5
"The peoples will be burned to ashes, like thorns cut down and set ablaze." Isaiah 33:12
"Not so the wicked! For they are like chaff driven off by the wind. Therefore the wicked will not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the assembly of the righteous." Psalm 1:4-5
Well, not to make light of sin, it was Paul who said that there is sin leading to death and that not all sin leads to death. We didn't get a menu though.
You've mixed metaphors here and ignored context. The wood, hay, stubble that Paul was referring to was works (the passage says so in context) not people and he was specifically addressing the church, not the world. Every offering is salted with fire (you can look that one up yourself). Fire is cleansing, not simply destructive and its unwise to twist the meaning of scripture to win an argument.
21 Then Eleazar the priest said to the men of war who had gone to the battle, “This is the ordinance of the law which the Lord commanded Moses: 22 Only the gold, the silver, the bronze, the iron, the tin, and the lead, 23 everything that can endure fire, you shall put through the fire, and it shall be clean; and it shall be purified with the water of purification. But all that cannot endure fire you shall put through water. Numbers 31:21-23
I will bring the one-third through the fire, Will refine them as silver is refined, And test them as gold is tested. They will call on My name, And I will answer them. I will say, ‘This is My people’; And each one will say, ‘The Lord is my God.’ Zechariah 13:9
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It's a logical argument but just isn't entirely in agreement with scripture.
Or think about the promised spirit ?
For who is it that seals the deal..
He cannot deny Himself...and the Spirit is said to be a down payment
For who is it that seals the deal..
He cannot deny Himself...and the Spirit is said to be a down payment
I have told you more than once ( even quite recently) that I think you are a Saved man.....do you ever actually READ my posts"
I think you are Saved, but “ Fallen from Grace”..... I think that you spread Leaven in these Forums and I want to stop you....I don’t want Newbies to be ruined before they even get started
If you thought that “ I” was spreading Leaven and preaching a False Gospel, I would expect you to do the same....you would be Negligent if you didn’t .....I am trying NOT to be negligent ...that’s all....
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